User talk:Brockmanah

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Stubs
Please don't create place holder articles which contain no content. If you have nothing to say right now, please wait until you do. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
moved from main page

See Talk:Sir William Brockman. Tearlach 23:54, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I've just been skimming some of the Brockman articles you've added. These really do need better sourcing: unpublished material and personal correspondence aren't considered sufficiently authoritative sources. Wikipedia requires that material be "previously published by a reputable publisher".

Where the source is an out-of-print text, as I said elsewhere, the guideline Don't include copies of primary sources applies (see, for instance, Virginia Cavaliers (historical)). I'm a little troubled about the copyright situation also: although the original text is out of copyright, a transcription may be; and it's a cut&paste from at Kathy Leigh's www.usahistory.info site. Tearlach 00:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Brockmanah, would you please answer my question at Talk:James Brockman Esq b1626? Conscious 13:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Copyright problems with Image:E A Drake-Brockman.jpg
An image that you uploaded, Image:E A Drake-Brockman.jpg, has been listed at Copyright problems because it is a suspected copyright violation. Please look there if you know that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), and then provide the necessary information there and on its page, if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.

I took this image down until I have more specific permissions from Autralia National Library. Brockmanah 04:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

General verifiability
Please could you provide evidence of verifiability for your article sources. A number cite "Exerpts from Drake-Brockman records and scrapbooks, courtesy Hugh Drake-Brockman, UK" (e.g. see Ralph Drake-Brockman, Sir William Brockman) - this is not up to Wikipedia verifiability. Nor is "Much of this information was provided by Paul Brockman (Virginia) who is writing a book on the Brockman family in the US" (see Brockman). This all looks like original research.

"DRAKE-BROCKMAN FAMILY" Compiled by BRIG.-GEN D.H. DRAKE-BROCKMAN C.M.G. 1936 provided courtesy of Hugh-Drake Brockman (UK) looks weak too. There is no sign of this book in library records I can find, nor or at Addall.com, suggesting it's some kind of self-published family scrapbook rather than a reputable published source by Wikipedia standards.

I'm also concerned about Edmund Alfred Drake-Brockman, which looks as if it's cut-and-pasted from somewhere. 86.140.183.102 02:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi 86.140.183.102. I appreciate the help meeting wikipedia's standards but shouldn't you register? I would feel more comfortable accepting the feedback from those who are also contributing articles. Amazon.com can find the the material: (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00089U71U/sr=1-21/qid=1138674744/ref=sr_1_21/102-3411244-0208906?%5Fencoding=UTF8) ASIN: B00089U71U. These out-of-print studies are of the highest quality and are perfectly valid despite being out-of-print. And here is William E. Brockman's Amazon.com and ASIN reference:(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007E8Y48/qid=1138674863/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-3411244-0208906?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)ASIN: B0007E8Y48. With regard to the Edmund Drake-Brockman article, can you tell me where you claim to have found this copy and paste?

I do not find the material on Edmund site elsewhere on the web. I believe AJackson wrote this material with good scholarship from the references he provided.

..I improved these references - thanks for the feedback

Brockmanah 02:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can submit a title to Amazon these days. Look at the details:
 * Record of the Brockman and Drake-Brockman family (Unknown Binding)
 * by David Henry Drake-Brockman
 * Publisher: D.H. Drake-Brockman (January 1, 1936)


 * The Brockman scrapbook;: Bell, Bledsoe, Brockman, Burrus, Dickson, James, Pedan, Putman, Sims, Tatum, Woolfolk, and related families (Unknown Binding)
 * by William Everett Brockman
 * Publisher: none credited

These are just self-published family scrapbooks. Note again the requirement of verifiability - "already been published by a reputable publisher" (their emphasis, not mine). Furthermore, see WP:NOR: "...it is essential that any primary-source material, as well as any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data, has been published by a third-party reputable publication (that is, not self-published) that is available to readers either from a website (other than Wikipedia) or through a public library". This disqualifies these sources. Find some acceptable ones, or this material will be binned.

''With regard to the Edmund Drake-Brockman article, can you tell me where you claim to have found this copy and paste? I do not find the material on Edmund site elsewhere on the web. I believe AJenkins wrote this material with good scholarship from the references he provided''.

I didn't say I'd found it anywhere; I just think it has the smell of copyright violation. A ruddy great chunk of unwikified text, utterly coherent, posted in one go, with a distinctive Edwardian style and phraseology: "Nor was he a social innovator in the mount of HB Higgin". I'll bet you a fiver it's verbatim from the Australian Dictionary of Biography. 86.140.183.102 03:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I consider this to be a reputable publisher and that WE Brockman and DH Drake-Brockman produced well-referenced research and published that research. I will add some of WE Brockman's later works, and all of which are available in Virginia libraries et cetera. Furthermore, it is available on websites as you state in the rule at www.brockmanfamily.com, genforum.com (referenced in external links), in the daughters of the revolution and elsewhere. Please take the possibility of plagarism to AJackson's talk page.


 * Done that part. See Talk:Edmund Alfred Drake-Brockman/Temp. It is from the ABD. They do say it can be used - but only if unmodified. Since the deal with Wikipedia is freedom to modify, no go: it'll have to be rewritten. 86.140.106.125 22:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi 86.140.183.102:

Please note that these books are available in various US and UK libraries and that other sources are more widely available (eg. Virginia Familes volumes 1-4). The primary source is all of the birth, records, death records, letters and documentation. The Secondary source(s) are these books written to summarize these sources. Therefore I am summarizing the information from these sources in Wikipedia as a tertieary source as described in the verifiablity guideline. I will need some time to collect the additional sources that may be more available to you. Please allow me that time.Brockmanah 15:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've posted a request for outside opinion at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. I'm happy to go with the consensus. 86.140.106.125 22:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but do not remove large tracts of Wikipedia without first giving people a chance to provide references to support their inclusion. If you doubt the accuracy or origin of an unsourced statement that has been in an article for a long time, delete it or move it to the talk page." I do not consider 2 days to be "a long time".  I have additional sources I can list that are more easily accessed for you and I would appreciate the time to add those. Brockmanah 01:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * With regard to the sources added thus far I will be adding the following:

by William Everett Brockman, ASIN: B0007E8Y48 (Out of Print), this information provided courtesy of Paul Brockman (Virginia) by BRIG.-GEN David Henry Drake-Brockman C.M.G. 1936 provided courtesy of Hugh-Drake Brockman (UK), ASIN: B00089U71U (Out of Print) (Menora, WA : Alan Jackson, 1993) ISBN: 0-646-18200-5
 * Burke’s "Landed Gentry" Burke's peerage Ltd; Jubilee edition, Mr. Bernard Burke, Mr. Gordon Pirrie (Author/Compiler)
 * Hasted's History of Kent,: Corrected, enlarged, and continued to the present time, from the manuscript collection of the late Rev. Thomas Streatfeild and ... the public records, and other sources, ASIN: B000874L4G
 * Harris's History of Kent.
 * The history and antiquities of the county of Essex,: Compiled from the best and most ancient historians; Philip Morant, Reprinted and sold by Meggy and Chalk (January 1, 1816), ISBN: 0715813013, Another republishing, 1978.
 * The Brockman Papers, (Records in the British Museum).
 * The Brockman scrapbook;: Bell, Bledsoe, Brockman, Burrus, Dickson, James, Pedan, Putman, Sims, Tatum, Woolfolk, and related families (Unknown Binding)
 * Record of the Brockman and Drake-Brockman family (Privately Published)
 * Brockman & Drake-Brockman Family Tree : the Australian Branch 1830-1993.

I will be working to Harvardize and elaborate on these sources, and I haven't added the Virginia Families Volumes yet, which I will, if you give me some time.
 * I read the discussion. I agree that the sourcing here is good and up to wikipedia's standards.  I can see the editor's point that the books are not widely published, but there is a lot of referencing and a great many people seem to have access to the books.  I think it would be better to see how the article stands up to other editors over time, who have collected other data or viewpoints from the web or other sources.  I think the material presented compares well with other wikipedia articles of a biographical or geneaolgical nature, particularly referring to a family.  Furthermore, if we demand only sourcing out of major publishers, we will only have biograhies of major figures (Bush, Clinton, the Windsors, et cetera) and it would be pleasingly egalitarian to allow more families to have material like this available.  Finally, the sourcing here compares well or better than that of other "Encylopeadic" biographical dictionaries like Burke's Peerage and others.  In my opinion this article is better sourced than those dictionaries, which occasionally allow mythological anecdotes in the interest of selling more copies.66.30.202.173 01:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Timestamp problem
You somehow managed to include a wrong timestamp when you warned Simp123457. How did that happen? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 15:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC) I don't know - I think I used a copy paste to make teh warning, I may have inadvertently copied a stamp. Brockmanah 16:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Henry Brockman
According to my information, he didn't have a middle name. Us Australians have adopted a policy of preferentially disambiguating Australian politicians using "(Australian politician)", so I will move the article to Henry Brockman (Australian politician). Drew (Snottygobble) | Talk 22:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

More Brockmans in Western Australia
I have just written William Locke Brockman, and added an image to Henry Brockman (Australian politician). Also I have added a number of prominent W.A. Brockmans and Drake-Brockmans to the Brockman article. I will write Edmund Ralph Brockman some time in the next week or so. Drew (Snottygobble) | Talk 02:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

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