User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Archive/Archive 017

Sir James Duckworth
I have not been able to find out much more about Duckworth than is already in your article.

The only additional information I tracked down about his political career is that he was adopted as Liberal candidate at Blackpool in 1903.(The Times, 19 October 1903) The sitting Tory MP, H W Worsley-Taylor KC announced he would be resigning his seat and the Unionists adopted Wilfrid Ashley. Duckworth and Ashley started campaigning in Blackpool in anticipation of a by-election (The Times, 27 January 1904 p4). In the event Worsley-Taylor did not step down until the 1906 general election when Ashley succeeded him as the local MP.

Duckworth was also a Justice of the Peace and an Alderman of Rochdale. (Walford's County Families of the United Kingdom. 1920 p357)

An odd discrepancy seems to exist about his marriage. I note in your article that by 1862 he is recorded as having a wife and son. However according to Who was Who (OUP 2007) he did not marry until 1882 when he married, Ellen Matilda the daughter of Thomas Jully of Bristol. There is also a Who was Who entry for Duckworth's son, also James Duckworth which states he was born in 1869. That does not accord with the 1862 date or the marriage date as being 1882. I could not find a reference to the marriage elsewhere so it's a mystery.

Please use this info to expand your article if you want.

Graham --Graham Lippiatt (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Baronets
Based on community consensensus as found on WP:ANI, I am enacting a topic ban on the subject of Baronets (edits, articles, and policy pages inclusive) on Vintagekits and Kittybrewster, as well as mandating that you do not use administrative tools on the same topic.

--Tznkai (talk) 23:19, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Notification of arbitration request
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ARequests_for_arbitration&diff=287957652&oldid=287954949--Tznkai (talk) 00:32, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Please trim your statement on requests for arbitration
Thank you for making a statement in an Arbitration application on requests for arbitration. We ask all participants and commentators to limit the size of their initial statements to 500 words. Please trim your statement accordingly. If the case is accepted, you will have the opportunity to present more evidence. Neat, concisely presented statements are much more likely to be understood and to influence the decisions of the Arbitrators.

For the Arbitration Committee. Tiptoety talk 14:34, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the msg. Too many issues raised to condense easily, but I will work on it later this evening. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:48, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have noticed that you have yet to shorten your statement. Might I recommend an easy way to do so? Leave the most important content at RFAR (up to 500 words), then put the rest on a subpage of your userspace and link to it at RFAR. Cheers, Tiptoety  talk 23:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Or, you could read the actual policy and see that that 1000-word limit explicitly refers to evidence posted after the case is accepted, and the only guidance in terms of length for statements before a case is accepted is "While it is not necessary to lay out the entire case, the Committee will expect you to briefly outline the nature of the dispute and the steps already taken to resolve it", which is exactly what both BHG and Vintagekits have done, and either point out the place where it limits them to 1000 words or stop trying to enforce a non-existent policy… (The 500 word limit is for the summary posted by the initial filer of the case, not for those responding to it.) –  iride scent  23:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Um, alright. I am not sure what provoked that. Anyways, I ask that you please look at Requests for arbitration/How-to. If I am reading it right, it asks parties to keep it around 500 words. Cheers, Tiptoety  talk 00:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The 500 word limit is applied across the board to try to keep opinions tight. Clerks have often asked for the additional statements to be trimmed down to 500 words, so this isnt anything new, but maybe it hasnt been written into the guide, or maybe it has been lost.  The how-to says that "Arbitrators or Clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment".  Obviously Tip isnt suggesting that he will do that here; BHG is a party, her statement is very helpful, and she has added auxiliary responses to Arb questions, so it may not be possible to push it under the 500 words. John Vandenberg (chat) 00:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I read the guidance, saw that the 500-word limit applied to those requesting arbitration, and thought that it would be nice to get mine down to that limit even tho the guidance didn't seem to require it. So I wrote what I needed to say, edited down, and when it got stuck at about 1000 words (about half the original) I gave up and posted it.
 * After Tiptoety's message yesterday, I tried again to edit it, but wasn't able to reduce it significantly without omitting crucial points. I do understand the merits of succinctness at this stage, but is it really so pressing an issue that's worthwhile spending more time trying to trim it? John seems happy enough with it as it is, so if it's OK with others, I'll leave it be. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If it is OK with ArbCom, than it is OK with me. I am simply enforcing a guideline set forth by ArbCom to make their jobs a little easier. Anyways, I appreciate your efforts BrownHairedGirl in attempting to reduce your statement. Cheers, Tiptoety  talk 02:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

A break from my break
I decide to take a break from my break and I'm still up at 1.30 fixing stuff. Two issues. Firstly any luck with the bot? And secondly User:CorkMan is a prolific creator of articles how ever, he never cites them or adds GaelicGamesProject tags too them. Can you have a look at his contribs and let me know what you think Gnevin (talk) 00:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Apology
Thank you for your messages. I am very sorry that in a hundred or so new articles which I created I made a couple of mistakes. I tried to conclude their parliamentary career with a neutral statement, except where from various sources other than Leigh Rayment (which doesn't say) it appeared that that they had lost or stood down. Obviously I got some wrong. This problem should only occur within the last 20 or so articles for six-month-wonders which I created so it should be containable. The great thing with wiki is that those with better knowledge of a subject or access to more information can correct simple good faith errors so thank you for doing that. You will be glad to know that there are only six more English 1885 MPs who need articles and I will try to take more care when I do them. That is as far as I am going, as I have no intention of following Gladstone into the quagmire of Hibernian politics. Motmit (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Replied at User talk:Motmit, to keep thread together. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Unrelated, but see Capernwray Hall which now has a disambig problem. Motmit (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you have spooted it Motmit (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)Thanks! I'd just spotted that, and moved the article back. Will write a quick stub on his father and make George Marton a dab page. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

TfD commentary request
Can you comment at Templates_for_deletion/Log/2009_April_24 on the proposed solution.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI
FYI. rootology ( C )( T ) 04:43, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the pointer! I have responded at ANI. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

input requested...
You are invited to revisit Sean Power (actor) to see if the WP:ENTERTAINER concerns you raised at Articles for deletion/Sean Power (actor) have been adequately addressed. Thank you,  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 07:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for stopping back and offering your input. I took your thoughts inre the notability of the play Stuck and found that it has received multiple awards and nominations, as has Power as being the star of the show. Going through the press and reviews of the play, I pulled out and sourced a few reviews specifically directed at Power.. s critical acclaim and recognition, thus pushing past the GNG a bit more. Again, and speecially after digging and editing, I can well understand your original concerns with the gawd-awful amount of fluff in the earlier versions and the problems with finding sources about so comon a name. Good editing,  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 00:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that. Your msg crossed in the post with my reply to your earlier highly sarcastic comments, so we are a bit out of sync. I'll take a look again and see whether the new references get there.  But really, it doesn't matter whether or not he has had critical acclaim -- that's not what notability is about: what matters is how much independent substatial coverage exists of him, and the critics rating could be good bad or indifferent.  General notability is a bit like that old chestnut of "I don't mind what you call me, just call me". -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have posted an apology for my impatience at the AfD. My own understanding is that critical acclaim is just one more valuable way to determine notability, just as film reviews count toward film notability and book reviews count toward book notability, as his creating and giving life to a character in a play and then going on to win multiple awards and nominations based upon his work in it ("The person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them"). I consider  his service in the entire run of a notable series, his participation in supporting roles in others, and his writing and directing a play that is itself covered in depth. I am less concerned with picking apart the seperate pieces as I am with putting them together so I can look at the entire depth and scope of the individual. And I am also considering WP:CREATIVE, as actors cross that "barrier" between Entertainer and Creator when they must themselves create a character and are not simply following the dictates of a director... this since he "authored" the character of Stan for Stuck, and has indeed "has won significant critical attention" through the reviews and the awards. The pieces fit. And to adress concerns that not all the sources are "in-depth"... well, since the lessor ones are still more than trivial ("If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability"), they blend well with the more substantial sources to create the mosaic of his life and career. Anyway... thank you again for your temperance. My frustration was not so much directed at you. Best regards,  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 03:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

James Duckworth
I have had a look in the Times newspaper archive and Who was Who but there is not anything new there which is not covered in your article. I did make a couple of minor grammar changes.

The odd thing is that in your article you have a source which indicates Duckworth had a wife and son in 1862. However according to Who was Who, Duckworth did not marry until 1882. His wife's name is given as Emma Matilda Jully. Who was Who also has an entry for Duckworth's son also called James but his dob is given as 1869. He contested Bury as a Liberal in 1923 and 1924. I suppose the relationship could have been common law and James junior born out of wedlock with the parents legitimising things by marrying in 1882 but it's speculation and I do not want to add information to the article which appears to contradict the existing content. Does your source say anything about the marriage?

Graham —Preceding unsigned comment added by Graham Lippiatt (talk • contribs) 19:56, 4 May 2009

FitzRoy MP dabbing
I hope you don't mind me requesting you look at some pages but the relationships of various FitzRoys have got a bit beyond my expertise. Basically there are several Lord Charles FitzRoys, some of whom were MP for Bury St Edmunds, plus there is Charles Augustus FitzRoy who seems to be redlinked in various places as Lord Charles Augustus Fitzroy or Lord Charles FitzRoy (politician). My confusion is over the 'Lord' title which isn't mentioned at Charles Augustus FitzRoy. (Plus Lord Charles FitzRoy (politician) is listed at the dab page as a different person). No worries if you have no time to look at it, I'll be leaving it be. Thanks. Tassedethe (talk) 14:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Tassedethe, thanks for the msg. I can usually make resonably good progress on those dabs, having rotted my head enough times on them in the past!
 * Unfortunately, I am rather busy at the moment, because the consequences of trying to avert a series of ill-considered mass page moves which messed up disambiguation in this MP/Peer/Baronet territory have landed me at WP:ANI and at WP:RFAR. :(
 * I'll try to get back to this once the storm is over (unless I am topic-banned from the field, which for someone reason the arbirators are considering), so if you remind me again in a week or so I'll see what I can do (if I am allowed).
 * Otherwise, I suggest a note at WT:PEERAGE, where you should catch the attention of editors such as Choess, Phoe, Tryde, who are very good at this sort of thing. If you don't raise them, then my best suggestion for now is to use www.leighrayment.com as a starting source, and check dates of birth and death v carefully on both the commons constituencies and the peerage pages. These families recycled first names endlessly, and the "Lord" title often indicates a courtesy title used by an heir apparent, so there could well be more than one Lord X Y, some of whom may not actually have acceded to the peerage.  If (like me) you don't have access to Burke's or Debrett's, then http://www.thepeerage.com is often very helpful in tracing the family relationships to clarify who was who.
 * Hope this helps, and sorry if I am teaching grannies to suck eggs! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
 * No, no granny teaching going on. I realised it was one of those areas where I could make matters worse if I started linking people incorrectly; if people get called Lord who aren't actually lords well that would be even more confusing. I will try your suggestion of a note at WT:PEERAGE. Very sorry about the WP:ANI stuff, I wish you luck in that. Tassedethe (talk) 15:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Tassedethe, generally only younger sons of dukes and marquesses and grandsons of a sovereign are entitled to the courtesy title "lord", Charles Augustus FitzRoy however was the son of a younger son of a duke (3rd Duke of Grafton) and as such not qualified. the Lord Charles Augustus Fitzroy who represented St Bury on the other hand was a younger son of a duke (4th Duke of Grafton) and is identically with Lord Charles FitzRoy (politician) (already existing on the disambiguation page). The MP from 1761 to 1774 was Charles FitzRoy, 1st Baron Southampton and the MP from 1787 to 1796 as well as from 1802 to 1818 was Lord Charles FitzRoy (British Army officer). Hope this helps, if not, please feel free to ask me directly.  Phoe  talk  15:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There appears to be two disambiguation pages: Charles FitzRoy and Lord Charles FitzRoy. They should be merged, particularly since Charles FitzRoy contains a link to Lord Charles FitzRoy which is mistakenly labelled as a link to an article. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I did the merge and I think I have everyone linked to the right people. The MP box on the Charles Augustus FitzRoy page really threw me. Thanks for both your help. Tassedethe (talk) 18:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Baronet pagename guidelines -- I have launched an RFC
I am leaving a note here for the benefit of anyone watching my talkpage, because I have launched an RFC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (names and titles).

My proposal is to stabilise the pagenames of articles on baronets by either forbidding the use of baronet titles in page names or making them universal. I think that either option is an improvement over the status quo, because it removes any scope for dispute over whether baronetcy titles should be applied to individual articles, and that will make life easier for everybody. The current flexibility has been tried for several years, and while I believe that it is workable, in practise it doesn't actually work because too many interested editors have strong views for and against the use of titles. It has ended up being an unsustainable compromise. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have to be reiminded that Kittybrestwer, your mainstay supporter is currently banned from all pages connected to baronets, that will include your RFC. So is this not a little premature? Especially, as the Arbcom are currently debating a topic ban on you from baronets and de-sysoping you? I would suggest you wait silently and patiently before initiating anything else concerned with baronets. Giano (talk) 22:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Lord and Jimbo forgive me, but I'm going to agree with Giano here. Let someone like Choess, who is equally interested in baronets but hasn't been sucked into this unholy mess, sort out the naming issues. VK and KB, that goes equally for the pair of you, too. It won't kill us to have the article at Sir William Bowyer-Smijth, 11th Baronet instead of William Bowyer-Smijth for another week. –  iride scent  22:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Giano seems to be under the illusion that expect support from Kittybrewster on this. Quite the opposite: I have no reason to believe that Kb would agree with my view that no titles at all would be a better option than the status quo.

I have thrown out the suggestion, and I'll see what others make of it. There's no rush, but it seemed to me to be timely to point out that for those who don't care strongly either way about using titles, but just want to handle ambiguity, part of the reason we get caught in the middle is that this is the only set of personal titles where use is neither universal nor deprecated. The reason I did as an RFC was precisely to get it out from beyond the usual crew and see if outside opinion might bring a structural solution.

Anyway, I have floated the idea, and my intention was in any case to sit back and see what others make of the possibility of adopting one of two solutions which would avoid this mess ever happening again. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Ryoung122
Hi, can I draw your attention to the above user that I see you have some previous experience with. He was previously blocked and said that he would refrain from editing articles with which he has a conflict of interest with in August 2008 yet continues to edit articles related to longevity myths/claims. He has been reported to the WP:COIN which is where I've heard about this. It would be useful if you could take a look at the discussion. Thanks in advance, Smartse (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah here's the specific link to COIN : Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard Smartse (talk) 16:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have commented there, but would prefer not to get further involved. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers. Smartse (talk) 19:06, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Neo-Stalinism CfD
Hi, BrownHairedGirl. I did get a bit carried away after working through an exhaustive rationale given the publicity of some Eastern European edit wars that have gotten kind of famous here. As far as Digwuren, I admit that it has been pretty difficult to assume good faith. His edit history strikes me as a bit tendentious. Here, for example, he is deleting a POV tag without bothering to discuss the matter with myself and a concurring editor on the Neo-Stalinism talk page. Of course, the rationale for his vote in the discussion was astounding. PasswordUsername (talk) 21:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand how it can be concerning to see tendentious editing. But as one of CFD's old lags, I really do think you'll find that a CFD nomination gets a much better reception if it is reasonably concise. Straying away from the merits (or otherwise) of the category onto the alleged failings of the category creator also goes down badly.  That's just my tuppenceworth. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I really should have been more diplomatic. PasswordUsername (talk) 22:21, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's easy to get a bit carried away sometimes :)
 * But you can still edit the nomination after posting it .... -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Darn
LOL, that's probably never happened before. What's the limit as far as how long I can make my next nomination? I'm honestly not trying to be ridiculous, but it's annoying when perfectly valid points get passed over in the course of debating. Being a kind of busy last-term university student, I was mainly trying to get things right from the get go, thinking it'd help cut down on having stay up 24/7.

I think I'll give up for a while. PasswordUsername (talk) 04:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No time limit so far as I am concerned, due to the nature of the closure of closure of that CFD. However, since there was a previous CFD for each of these categories only 5 weeks ago (here and here), your nomination yesterday was somewhat premature. I think you are wise to leave this one for a while, and come back to it later.
 * I'm quite sure that you acted in good faith trying to get the nomination right, but the effect was overwhelming. I hope that on reflection you can see why you feel key points were missed in the debate: most contributors were bound to miss them, because they just got lost in all the words.
 * Can I tell you how I know that long nominations don't work? It's because of this CFD nomination from May 5. By ... well, by me.   On a subject that would normally bring in half-a-dozen contributors, there's next-to-nothing, and I'm sure that's because there are simply too many words (even though there are only 1/3 as many as you used). I'm going to withdraw that nomination, because it's quite clear that such verbosity doesn't work at CFD.  Less is more :)
 * You are right that there is no limit, and if you want to appeal my closure you can do so at WP:DRV. But I really really suggest that you would do much better to take a little time to copyedit your nomination down to one what will fit on a maximum of one modestly-sized screen, which in practice probably means less than 500 words.  If there is further material you want to present, then consider adding supplementary material on a subpage of your userpage  (e.g. User:PasswordUsername/Neo Stalinism categories) ... but I'm pretty sure that you should not need to do that, and should be able to get all the most important points across in much less than 500 words.
 * The next is purely a suggestion, in case it helps: one approach to doing that is to decide how many important points you need to make (such as the six you have listed at the top), and set yourself a low word limit for explaining each of them. Six points @ 50 words for each is only 300 words. Omit phrases such as "surprise surprise", "to proceed from the foregoing" -- all those words are un-needed decoration, great in some places but not where brevity matters. Omit criticism of other editors -- all that matters is the categories, not how makes them. And don't use a separate summary at the start. That's great for lengthy report-writing, but not for a short set of key points, where a separate summary requires repetition later. Just make each point succinctly, then the next one, and don't try to make elegant prose -- just simple, concise prose. I know you can do it!
 * Hope this helps. I don't want to take a view either way or whether or nor the categories should be deleted, but it does seem to me that you do have done a lot of thinking about the nature of these categories. Whatever view others take or your arguments, I'm sure that it would be good for them to be heard, if you give it some time and organise them better. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:06, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, I really appreciate the input. I'm getting to be busy IRL right now, but I might bring it up again when I get some free time. PasswordUsername (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! Good luck with finishing up at University. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Not Going That Route Again
Dear BHG, if there's one thing I learned about Wikipedia, it's that fanatical editing, rather than level-headed attempts to formulate consensus, often rules on Wikipedia, unless/until the community as a whole finally notices and begins the process of dialing back that particular person. That could be me. It could also be many others. I'm particularly disturbed at both JJBulten's POV pushing AND his scorched-Earth editing. Consider this:

1. JJ Bulten has suggested that Abraham's age of "175" be taken literally

2. He is a major Biblical apologist

3. He has suggested that the biology of humans was different in Biblical times (creationism) and so that longer life spans are possible. (I note that many Christian leaders have come up with explanations for this, but none are taken seriously by scientists).

4. He has suggested that merely finding a photo of Catherine, Countess of Desmond "verifies" her age at 140

5. He has challenged research that has been published in non-Wikipedia sources first as "original research."

6. He has mistaken third-party published research as "self-published" sources.

7. He has inserted his own ORIGINAL RESEARCH. There is no scientific, or even popular use, of terms such as "longevity narratives, longevity stories, longevity folklore." All the sources for this are Wiki-mirrors of the phrases being created on Wikipedia.

Now, I must admit that I am often not the nicest person around and I have to work on that. However, Wikipedia also needs to work on the problem/issue that a single, zealous, POV (in this case, Biblical apologist/literalist) creator can undo/overthrow 130 years of science just because it conflicts with his personal view of the world.

Moreover, this editor admitted that he didn't even read one iota of literature on the subject until he cracked open a Guinness Book last week (which is merely the starting point on the subject, not the scientific literature).

Therefore, the real problem here is the issue of CONTENT: this editor is mis-using Wikipedia to push pro-Christian fundamentalist, anti-scientific POV.

And therein lies the problem.

Ryoung 122 17:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Robert -- thanks for your msg.
 * Look, I do acknowledge that you have made great efforts not repeat the mistakes you made before. However, as per my comments at WP:COIN, I think it is inappropriate that you have edited articles about cases where you have been involved, and even edited specifically in relation to your own role in them (e.g. this edit, where you changed the article to attribute research solely to yourself rather than to you and NYT). Whether you are right or wrong on anything else, that's a clear no-no, and you really should stay well clear of such material. If I had not been involved in a previous dispute with you, I would have regarded that alone would have been enough to justify a formal warning to desist.
 * I am also troubled by the number of straightforward reverts which you have made of JJB's edits, including several in which you have reverted his addition of to an article.  Have you just been mass-reverting his edits?  And your practice of rarely using edit summaries is always bad for collaboration, but particularly bad when you are editing in a controversial area.
 * However, as I noted at WP:COIN, I agree that the core issue here is a basic difference between you and JJB in how you approach the whole field ... and that's why I suggest an RFC.
 * I don't support either of your sides in all this, but the more I read of this dispute the more I am concerned that both of you seem determined to make one view of this field predominate. You claim to have science on your side, but insisting a scientific approach to the exclusion of all others is just as much a POV as the worldview of a creationist, and it's particularly problematic that the scientific angle is being pushed by someone who has such a prominent role as a protagonist in the real-world disputes.
 * WP:NPOV is very clear about handle the application of two opposing frameworks for looking at an issues: present both sides of an argument, and let the reader make up their own minds. Since you two seem unable to agree on a way of doing this, I strongly urge you both to launch an RFC on this dispute and let the wider community sort it out.
 * For what it's worth, I am not a creationist or a "biblical apologist" or an adherent of any religion. But when I see two sides both apparently trying to engage in "idea promotion" (which was how you described your own editing), then my alarm bells ring. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for promoting anyone's ideas. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have just reverted a post to this page by Ryoug122, because it included a huge copy-and-paste of a contribs list. I have asked you before not to clutter up talk pages with this sort of thing: learn how to link to a contribs list rather than just just splattting in material when a short link would not only make for a more readable page here, but make the contribs list more useful. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi BHG, please forgive me for jumping in, but I believe it necessary for your page to include my categorical denial (hereby) to the charges 1-7 above, which seem to represent Ryoung122's strange recasting of statements I've made and/or original research on his part about my state of mind. Also I want to affirm your views about NPOV and SPOV above, as has been demonstrated by my use of sourcing, and I would particularly be interested in Ryoung122 getting around to inserting those scientific sources so they can be reviewed in the standard way. Thank you for your patience. JJB 16:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Notification of motion relating to Baronets naming dispute
The Arbitration Committee, in Arbitration/Requests/Case, have voted to implement a motion. It can be viewed on the case page by following this link. The motion is as follows: "The community enacted topic ban on and is recognized and confirmed. Kittybrewster is admonished to respect community and administrator decisions, including the imposition of sanctions, and directed to utilize the standard channels of appeal and review in cases where he disagrees. Disregard for sanctions, whether imposed by an administrator, the community, or the Arbitration Committee, is grounds for the imposition of escalating blocks and/or further sanctions. Vintagekits and Kittbrewster are indefinitely restricted from moving pages relating to Baronets and Knights, broadly interpreted. They are both restricted from nominating articles created by the other for deletion and more generally warned from unnecessarily interacting with each other, especially where it is likely to be perceived as baiting, trolling, or another form of harassment.  is admonished not to use administrative tools to further her own position in a dispute. BrownHairedGirl is prohibited indefinitely from taking any administrative action against or in connection with Vintagekits."

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, KnightLago (talk) 20:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the notice. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

New Ireland Wikimedia email list
Hi BrownHairedGirl:

We've started a new Ireland Wikimedian email list, that you can join, at WikimediaIE. For Wikimedians in Ireland and Wikimedians interested in events in Ireland and efforts in Ireland. To discuss meetups, partnerships with Museums and National Archives, and anything else where Wikipedia and real life intersect :) Bastique demandez 21:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Archive Indexbot
I saw you are using the "HBC Archive Indexerbot" and am trying it out. Perhaps you understand its workings but it is only indexing my existing talk page and not my archived talk pages. By any chance do you know what settings I need to change to get it to index those pages too? Cheers ww2censor (talk) 03:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi ww2c
 * I had the call to it on my talk page for over year, but it did absolutely nothing at all. I had studied the instructions a few times, but couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong, and eventually just gave up. :(
 * However, this edit by fixed it. I'm not sure that I understand exactly what Krellis did, maybe you could ask Krellis for help in getting yours working? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Richard Ellison and WP:PRIME
Hi BHG

Long time no see. Glad you've popped back from your extended wikibreak.

I think there's probably good justification for the cricketer being deemed the prime for notability. What do you think?

Cheers and, like I say, good to have you back, even briefly. --Dweller (talk) 15:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Dweller, thanks for the welcome! Good to see you are still around :)
 * I do tend to take a fairly restrictive view of WP:PRIME in general, and I think it's particularly difficult with biographical articles. If choosing between (for example) an Australian judge, a Canadian ice-hockey player, an Irish freedom-fighter and a Scottish writer, I think that they are likely to interest completely different audiences. Many readers may see a particular article as their clear primary topic, but a majority of readers are going to disagree with any particular choice.  So when it comes to biographies, I take the view that someone needs to be quite exceptional within their field before being viewed as a the primary topic, and that one should be wary of recentism: it's a mistake, I think, to determine a primary topic by assessing the article rather than the person, because in general newer topics tend to be expanded more quickly.
 * On those grounds, I default to having the title page as a dab, which also makes it much easier to ensure that all links go to where they want to, which is a direct reader benefit.
 * In this case, it looks to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Ellison got fairly near the top of his game, playing for England and wining the Wisden award. Not at the top, though (he wasn't captain) and thanks to injury he wasn't there for long.  So he looks to me like someone who could have been one of the great cricketers, but for misfortune; however, the early promise was not fulfilled.
 * The article on Richard Ellison (politician) is just a stub, but he was an MP for 24 years, which is well above average for the Commons, and the article doesn't yet provide any info on whether he ever held govt office. However, in the unreformed House of Commons, it tended to be the local big cheeses who got to Parliament (that or someone parachuted in to a pocket borough), so the MP has a possibility of being a more significant character than he initially looks.
 * If the MP is just a man of local significance, then the cricketer's claim to national fame puts him ahead, and regardless of that, he has a degree of international fame which the MP lacks. But is he really so much more notable that it's worth sacrificing the ease of maintaining disambiguation? I think not, but it seems like a borderline case.  What do you think? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, took me a while to get back here. Your arguments are persuasive and I think I'll go with them. This makes an interesting parallel with the current debate at Talk:Bill O'Reilly, don't you think? --Dweller (talk) 14:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Courtesy note: I've name-dropped you at Talk:Bill O'Reilly --Dweller (talk) 12:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input. Interesting comments about fixing links to a disambig page - I'd never thought of that aspect. --Dweller (talk) 15:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Granville Greenwood/George Greenwood
Hello. These two articles are duplicates. I hope you can help me determine which first name he used, I believe it was Granville but both names appear on the internet. Tryde (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tryde, I had spotted that, and had been about to merge them.
 * He was actually known as George -- see Hansard here. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * But if you click on his name in that source you end up at a page where he is referred to as Granville Greenwood! The ODNB also calls him Granville Greenwood. This source, which contains a short biography on him by his daughter, calls him George. A bit confusing to say the least. I left a message at Wikiproject Shakespeare (as he was a well-known Shakespearean scholar) about two months ago but no-one bothered to reply. How reliable do you think this Hansard website is anyway, I've found a number of errors in it. Tryde (talk) 09:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I can answer those.
 * First, the DNB opens "Greenwood, Sir Granville George (1850–1928), politician and animal welfare reformer, was born in London on 3 January 1850,...". As with other entries, they appear to have made no effort to determine which name he used.
 * The Hansard site consists of the text of Hansard, with Rayment's list of MPs used as an index, so the index always uses the firstname even when ppl were known by middle name. However, the name used in the text of Hansard is that recorded by the clerks transcribing the debate, who are often inconsistent, but I have never seen any case of then using the middle name of someone who wasn't known by that name. I just checked his contributions in 1918: every single one of them is either "Sir George Greenwood" or "Sir G. Greenwood".  I can only assume that by then the clerks had taken notice of previous objections.
 * The piece by his daughter doesn't answer which name he used, and is clearly the source an inaccuracy which has crept into the wikipedia article George Greenwood. She writes "in 1906 he won Peterborough for the Liberals and held it till December, 1915, when forced by rheumatism to retire" ... but he was still speaking in Parliament up to November 1918.. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm 99% convinced! I think he may have used both names at times, i.e. Granville George Greenwood or G. G. Greenwood. At amazon.co.uk you cam buy both this book on Shakespeare by Greenwood or this book on Shakespeare by him... Btw, I hope you saw the message I left you about a week ago regarding the VK business. I think it's buried in your latest talk page archive. Tryde (talk) 11:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Category:Hackney Members of Parliament
Do you have any opinions on Category:Hackney Members of Parliament? It's not in the same format as the other MP categories, and seems to represent multiple constituencies (although that may just be due to repeated renamings and redrawings). Ought it to be renamed? –  iride scent  13:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse
I see you rated this stub & mid-Importance back in March. I've expanded the article to cover the report published today. Would you care to give the new version a piercing glance to see how it reads now? I'm happy to polish it: today's edits were "breaking news" and there will no doubt be more to come. - Pointillist (talk) 18:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

List of United Kingdom MPs
Please see Talk:List of United Kingdom MPs --PBS (talk) 10:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

John Joe O'Reilly
Please can you stop changing the name in the post for the GAA player John Joe O'Reilly to JJ. His name is John Joe & should remain that way. Shame on you for changing, please leave it alone and stick to your FG guy, (who I have never heard of BTW) THANKS John Joe O'Reilly (grandson) johnjoeoreilly@gmail.com

Johnjoeoreilly (talk) 06:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

WTF is Johnjoeoreilly (talk) 06:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)  ?


 * I don't know what you are talking about. So far as I can see, I have not "changed the name" of either John Joe O'Reilly or J. J. O'Reilly. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Rob_Marris
Hi BHG. I wonder if you could look at a disagreement between myself and Special:Contributions/92.16.9.31 I want to remove reference to a caution which I believe unbalances an article on one of our better backbenchers. I accept it was newsworthy a year ago and I don't want to discourage anyone but a year later, I think the time has come to remove it. Could you give an opinion, preferably on the his talk page where I have already left a note? Many thanks in advance JRPG (talk) 21:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Ireland semi protect
Hi BrownHairedGirl,

Can you please lift the semi-protect that you put on Ireland. I complained about it as an IP, another user has complained about it now (here).

It is a very highly visited pages and three months seems like an excessive ammount of time to block the vast majority of our readers from editing such a popular page on the encyclopedia that supposedly "anyone can edit". --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 00:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The semi-protection was added because of a problem with vandalism. If you think it's not justified, you may want to make a request at WP:RFPP. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Amendment request
You should know of the new arb thread, Arbitration/Requests/Amendment. Cheers, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deacon of Pndapetzim (talk • contribs) 23:26, 4 June 2009
 * Thanks for the pointer. It's all very tedious: there is clearly no possibility of a consensus, and this will only be resolved by a community-wide poll, and until that is done this one will run and run. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Re: Very small glitch in Cydebot
I've finally gotten around to responding to your message on my talk page. -- Cyde Weys 02:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Please moderate the Regine Velasquez page. So many false claims, there are no citations.
So many users in that page keep on putting false claims about Regine Velasquez' achievements and talent, to the point that they make up fake 'achievements' about her so-called 'reign'. Velasquez is not famous all over the world, she has not sold one million records all over Asia. They keep sensationalizing her page by writing over hyped and false claims such as having a 'palatial house', albums selling over 10X platinum, that Regine rejected the Miss Saigon role, and so much more. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.104.22.195 (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

You have been nominated for membership of the Established Editors Association
The Established editors association will be a kind of union of who have made substantial and enduring contributions to the encyclopedia for a period of time (say, two years or more). The proposed articles of association are here - suggestions welcome.

If you wish to be elected, please notify me here. If you know of someone else who may be eligible, please nominate them here

Discussion is here.Peter Damian (talk) 20:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

New header--political party nominee
Back in February, I engaged in a discussion with some of the editors who are involved with succession boxes and headers. I started the conversation because I came across what I regard as a pretty significant error in the usage of one of the headers, namely, the header. The guideline for its usage is actually pretty close to what it should be:


 * These are offices that are part of the mechanisms of political parties. They include:


 * Party leaders/chairmen
 * Whips
 * Party candidates for the Presidency of the United States, France, etc.
 * Chairpersons of the Democratic and Republican National Committees (United States)


 * Only important positions in major parties should be given succession boxes.

Unfortunately, this is not how it is being used. Probably because of the fact that the American presidential nominees are getting this header (which is in of itself, of debatable accuracy), other party nominees are being given this header as well. Failed candidates for state governorships, and in at least one case that I've seen, a failed candidate for one of the 435 seats in the US House of Representatives. These people, simply put, do not hold any political office, in the sense that anyone familiar with American politics would support. If you would like to discuss this further, I'd be happy to, but it appears to me that the matter is more or less settled, and the other editors are okay with doing what I would like to do, namely, create a new header, namely,, for political party nominees.

I recognize that creating a new template, and even more, creating a new header, is not something to be done lightly. But this is necessary. The alternative (with which I would also be okay) would simply be to remove the header altogether.

Anyway, I am coming to you because, a) you seem to be something of an expert in this area, and b) I am a technophobe, or, more accurately (and less elegantly) a technomoron. I finally today got around to trying to create this header that I said over two months ago that I would make, and I spent nearly two hours trying to figure out how to do it, and could not. I have looked everywhere I can think of, and even wikipages that seemed to promise to show me what to do apparently also presume a level of knowledge I don't have. I'm hoping that you can either show me how to do it, or perhaps do it yourself. My preference is the former, simply because I am biased towards increasing my own knowledge. But I can also understand that you may have neither the time nor the inclination to lead me through the experience.

Oh, one more thing. I am only thinking now about political nominees in the United States. I am well aware that, for example, in Britain, there exist shadow offices for the entire life of a Parliament. It's an entirely different thing, and I have no intention of trying to change things over there.

So, can you help me? Un sch  ool  03:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Would there be someone else you would recommend that I bring this matter up with?  Un  sch  ool  02:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unschool, unless you are not in any hurry you may want to try elsewhere because BHG is on an extended wikibreak and only around very occasionally these days, so you could be waiting quite some time for a reply, unless, by good luck she happens to drop by. ww2censor (talk) 03:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Poll on Ireland (xxx)
A poll is up at WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration/Poll on Ireland (xxx). This is a vote on what option or options could be added in the poll regarding the naming of the Ireland and Republic of Ireland and possibly the Ireland (disambiguation) pages. The order that the choices appear in the list has been generated randomly. Sanctions for canvassing, forum shopping, ballot stuffing, sock puppetry, meat puppetry will consist of a one-month ban, which will preclude the sanctioned from participating in the main poll which will take place after this one. Voting will end at 21:00 (UTC) of the evening of 1 July 2009 (that is 22:00 IST and BST). -- BigDunc  Talk 20:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Poll on Ireland (xxx)
A poll is up at WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration/Poll on Ireland (xxx). This is a vote on what option or options could be added in the poll regarding the naming of the Ireland and Republic of Ireland and possibly the Ireland (disambiguation) pages. The order that the choices appear in the list has been generated randomly. Sanctions for canvassing, forum shopping, ballot stuffing, sock puppetry, meat puppetry will consist of a one-month ban, which will preclude the sanctioned from participating in the main poll which will take place after this one. Voting will end at 21:00 (UTC) of the evening of 1 July 2009 (that is 22:00 IST and BST). -- Evertype·✆ 18:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Attention needed
This may, or may not, be up your street. Uncle G (talk) 08:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Lennox Sisters

Poll on Ireland article names
Howdy,

John Liver Eating Johnston, John Johnson, Liver Eating Johns(t)on and John Garrison are all the same individual.

I noted that the discussion page is filled with questions and statements about him. The Wiki main description of him, I have tried to add some items and when I put them in someone edits it out.

I would safely say I have the complete bio on Johnston. He was not born in 1824, he was not named John, he was not bigger than 6 foot and he did not do half the deeds the Crow Killer book and the mountain men sites state. He did a lot. He did kill men. He did change his name. and so on......

I do have his complete gene workup.

I have a site www.johnlivereatingjohnston which is mostly generic, but I am saving the hard fought facts for the book.

Thanks,

Dorman Nelson Biographer Granada Hills, California 91394 www.johnliveratingjohnston.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.94.161 (talk) 01:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Happy 's Day!
For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk  • 01:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

eco-terrorism category
I am hoping that you could cast your eye over the current controversy about categorising the Sea Shepherd Conservation Soceity as eco-terrorists. The debate started when an anonymous IP put the category eco-terrorism on the article page, no less than eleven times. I and other editors argue that the category labels people and groups in the same way the former categories 'terrorist' ad 'war criminals' did, as well as the category pseudoscience did for psychoanalysis, which resulted in an Arbcom decision against such labelling AFAIK. The eco-terrorism category debate is presently on the NPOV page here and began at article #66 Eco terrorism category on the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society talk page here.

The relevant decisions were presented by Hans Adler as: CfD for 'terrorists'; Cfd for 'war criminals'; and WP:PSCI as well as WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE for the psychoanalyis decision. The Wikipedia article eco-terrorism is not NPOV and is factually deficient, it is not a good source for information, so please seek background information elsewhere.

Should the Sea Shepherd article still continue to carry the 'eco-terrorism' category while this issue is debated? Should the eco-terrorism article be flagged for readers with the NPOV and FACTUAL warnings? Is the category 'eco-terrorism' a candidate for CfD?

Yours, TranquillityBase Message 07:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Dominican College, Fortwilliam

 * 17:41, 16 March 2008 BrownHairedGirl protected Dominican College, Fortwilliam ‎ (persistent vandalism from anon IPs [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed])

That was 18 months ago. I'd like to review this to see if semiprotection is still necessary. See talk:Dominican College, Fortwilliam. --TS 12:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now unprotected, but see my comment at talk:Dominican College, Fortwilliam. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Request for Participation in Wikipedia Research
BrownHairedGirl,

Your Request for Adminship (RfA) process was reviewed and studied by our research team at Carnegie Mellon University early in our project to gain insights into the process. We reviewed what voters discussed about your case, and what qualifications you brought to the table as a candidate. In total 50 cases were personally read and reviewed, and we based our further research questions in part on your case. Congraluations on being granted the Admin mop, and we are confident the group made the right decision in your case!

In continuing our research, I would like to personally invite you to participate in a survey we are conducting to get perspective from people who have participate in the RfA process. The survey will only take a few minutes of your time, and will aid furthering our understanding of online communities, and may assist in the development of tools to assist voters in making RfA evaluations. We are NOT attempting to spam anyone with this survey and are doing our best to be considerate and not instrusive in the Wikipedia community. The results of this survey are for academic research and are not used for any profit nor sold to any companies. We will also post our results back to the Wikipedia community.

This survey is part of an ongoing research project by students and faculty at the Carnegie Mellon University School of Computer Science and headed by Professor Robert Kraut.

Take the survey

Thank you!

If you have any questions or concerns, feel free comment on my talk page.

CMUResearcher (talk) 15:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

New header--political party nominee
Back in February, I engaged in a discussion with some of the editors who are involved with succession boxes and headers. I started the conversation because I came across what I regard as a pretty significant error in the usage of one of the headers, namely, the header. The guideline for its usage is actually pretty close to what it should be:


 * These are offices that are part of the mechanisms of political parties. They include:


 * Party leaders/chairmen
 * Whips
 * Party candidates for the Presidency of the United States, France, etc.
 * Chairpersons of the Democratic and Republican National Committees (United States)


 * Only important positions in major parties should be given succession boxes.

Unfortunately, this is not how it is being used. Probably because of the fact that the American presidential nominees are getting this header (which is in of itself, of debatable accuracy), other party nominees are being given this header as well. Failed candidates for state governorships, and in at least one case that I've seen, a failed candidate for one of the 435 seats in the US House of Representatives. These people, simply put, do not hold any political office, in the sense that anyone familiar with American politics would support. If you would like to discuss this further, I'd be happy to, but it appears to me that the matter is more or less settled, and the other editors are okay with doing what I would like to do, namely, create a new header, namely,, for political party nominees.

I recognize that creating a new template, and even more, creating a new header, is not something to be done lightly. But this is necessary. The alternative (with which I would also be okay) would simply be to remove the header altogether.

Anyway, I am coming to you because, a) you seem to be something of an expert in this area, and b) I am a technophobe, or, more accurately (and less elegantly) a technomoron. I finally today got around to trying to create this header that I said over two months ago that I would make, and I spent nearly two hours trying to figure out how to do it, and could not. I have looked everywhere I can think of, and even wikipages that seemed to promise to show me what to do apparently also presume a level of knowledge I don't have. I'm hoping that you can either show me how to do it, or perhaps do it yourself. My preference is the former, simply because I am biased towards increasing my own knowledge. But I can also understand that you may have neither the time nor the inclination to lead me through the experience.

Oh, one more thing. I am only thinking now about political nominees in the United States. I am well aware that, for example, in Britain, there exist shadow offices for the entire life of a Parliament. It's an entirely different thing, and I have no intention of trying to change things over there.

So, can you help me? Un sch  ool  02:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Unschool, and thanks for your message. I'm not spending much time on wikipedia at the moment, but I'll try to help if I can.
 * However, I'm not entirely clear about what the technical problem is. Can you explain to me what exactly you're trying to do, and where you are getting stuck?
 * What I think you mean is that you want a new template s-ppn, but I'm not sure exactly what you want it to do. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Ireland naming Poll
Hiya BHG. IMHO, Arbcom should've chosen the articles-in-question names. But had they, it might've set a precedent that might've been troublesome for Wikipedia. Guess we'll never know. GoodDay (talk) 16:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

re MickMacNee
You made a mistake. Note that my notice in the block log did not refer to vandalism, but other violations of site policies. Cirt (talk) 20:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Further, your note in the block log also appears to be incorrect - - nowhere in the block log rationale did it refer to vandalism. Also - you made a comment at my talk page that you had "proposed shortening the block to 48 hours" - not that you would unblock altogether instead. This seems to be a wholly different course of action. Cirt (talk) 20:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear, sorry Cirt -- slightly crossed wires here. :(

Your block didn't allege vandalism, and I'm sorry if what I wrote implied that. The vandalism label was applied by the complainant, not by you, but your generalised ref to "policies" allowed Mick to think that vandalism was part of the block rationale. I know that wasn't what you intended, but I hope you can see in hindsight how it was readable that way and that this opened up the potential for confusion.

On the timing, sorry -- I screwed up. Had it in my head when I lifted the block that it had already run for 48 hours, rather than the ~28 hours it had actually run for. My fault, I should have checked. However, the autoblock was still in place (I have just lifted it), so the total time blocked was about 40 hours. I hope that's close enough. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would appreciate it if you could note somewhere, perhaps in the block log for MickMacNee, that my prior block of him was appropriate, and was not a block for "vandalism". Your block log note makes it seem like my admin action was inappropriate, when in actuality it was certainly necessitated. Cirt (talk) 10:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be delighted to clarify things that way, but I'm sure how to do it. The best I can think of is to apply a 1-minute block on Mick, but do you know of any better way? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure of another way. Cirt (talk) 12:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Please stop
Please stop moving motorway articles without establishing clear consensus first. Your moves are fast becoming as disruptive as those of User:Sarah777 and I will have no issues with taking this issue further if it continues. Wikipedia has a requested move process for a reason. Jeni ( talk ) 19:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have a problem with a specific move, please tell me which one.
 * Rather than complaining and issuing threats, you'd do better to help me disambiguate all the ambiguous links. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I was pretty clear in my original message "Please stop moving motorway articles without establishing clear consensus first" it tells you which articles. Jeni  ( talk ) 19:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Read WP:BRD, and quit mass-reverting my edits. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You made a bold edit, I reverted it, now discuss it. Simple! Read the policies you cite. Stop disambiguating links without good reason, introducing an unnecessary redirect into the line. Jeni  ( talk ) 19:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No prob with reverting the move. My complaint is about your mass-reversion of the rest of my edits without checking them first. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

You have been warned about moving motorway pages previously. This is your last warning if you continue to move pages without discussion first you will be blocked. Thryduulf (talk) 19:55, 23 September 2009 (UTC) Withdrawn and struck by author, see below. Thryduulf (talk) 11:41, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Calm down and explain what you are on about. AFAICR, I haven't moved any for 36 hours. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)


 * Thryduulf, I think you should take a closer look before blocking anyone, particularly BrownHairedGirl who in my experience has no problem following a kindly worded suggestion. I really don't think a threat is needed, perhaps simply explaining your concerns better would be more productive. Chillum  23:39, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Chillum.
 * Unfortunately, there is now a group of editors along with associated admins who are blind-reverting even uncontroversial disambiguations of UK roads, and making a series of increasingly wild threats.  Per my comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_geography, I am very concerned about the way that one wikiproject appears to have taken WP:OWNership of these articles. --23:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That is unfortunate indeed. I am sure it is not in the best interests of the encyclopedia. Chillum  23:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are several editors moving pages without discussion to a seemingly random mixture of (England), (Great Britain) and (United Kingdom). Some of them turn out to be appropriate suggestions when looked at in detail (e.g. the M2) others like the M1 have since shown a clear consensus against any move. Still others like the A34 are not in need of disambiguation beyond a hatnote (there is a minor road in the Isle of Man with the title, tagged for notability concerns). This combined shows that at the very least there should be an informal discussion on the talk page before the move takes place. The simplest thing to say is that for now at least you should assume that no move of an article about a British road will be uncontroversial, however well intentioned. As there are several editors apparently doing the same or similar things, then it is possible that I have misattributed a move to you (BrownHairedGirl) that was done by a different user and if so I apologise. I will check in the morning and more formally withdraw my statement if it turns out I am incorrect. Thryduulf (talk) 00:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thryduulf, thanks for your reply.
 * There are several issues here. First and foremost is that you acknowledge that you issued an aggressive block threat without adequately checking your facts first.  Bad idea.
 * Secondly, you are blind-reverting without assessment, as you did with my move of M18 motorway to  M18 motorway (Great Britain) -- you have not demonstrated that the move was controversial, nor did you offer a substantive content-based reason for the revert.  That's unacceptable: reverting a well-formed move just because you haven't thought about it is simply bullying.
 * Thirdly, you seem to be viewing this as some great crisis, but there is no crisis. Pages are moved; some moves turn out to be controversial and are overturned, but others stay.  This happens all the time, so it's situation normal.  Wikipedia would grind to a halt if every page move was discussed in advance.
 * You say that I "should assume that no move of an article about a British road will be uncontroversial, however well intentioned". Sorry, but again I have to remind you declaring a whole class of thousands of articles off-limuts from normal move procedures is not how wikipedia works, and the falsity of that statement is demonstrated by the lack of controversy over the M18 move until you decided to make a drama out of it by reverting my move and then move-warring with Sarah777.  It looks like you are trying to make up a rule, and that's not an approach likely to bring about calm. As you can see, it has inflamed Sarah777, and it's worrying to see that you as admin have started a conflict at M18 motorway where there was none. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:34, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry this is later than I said it would be, but real life got in the way this morning unfortunately. Anyway, I have now reviewed the history of the moves of the M18 motorway and I owe you an apology. My warning should have been directed at Sarah777, who made the second move to the page, not you (who made the first move). I presume that after reverting the move I read and/or clicked on the wrong line of the page history. I have struck my warning above and retract it with my apologies. I have already apologised for my improper use of the admin tools.
 * Regarding the "declaring off-limits thousands of articles", I am not declaring anything but suggesting that given because the recent history of moves to these articles and that every one that has been discussed so far has both support and opposition, it would be prudent to discuss them first. The pages are doing no harm where they are, and many editors (including myself) feel that it is less disruptive to discuss first and then move if there is consensus rather than move and then re-move if the new title does not subsequently gain consensus (and so far not one of them has). When people have, in good faith, asked you (and other editors doing similiar actions at the same time) to discuss moves first, it is less likely to result in hostile responses to you if you do discuss first. There is a strong consensus that all British railway station articles should be named in a certain way even if plainer titles would be unambiguous. The discussions regarding the M1, M2, M3 and M4 show that there is not a similar consensus for a standard naming scheme for British roads - feel free though to propose one if you think it would be of benefit (the UK Geography wikiproject would seem the most logical place to me).
 * I should also point out that I do not oppose moving without discussion where it is not likely to be controversial - for example I moved Avon Fire and Rescue Service to Avon Fire & Rescue Service recently. Thryduulf (talk) 11:41, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Gaelic Athletic Association
Can you please edit this: "Eamonnca1, that's an quite unnecessary personal attack on Mooretwin. It's quite possible to disagree without labelling your opponent as hate-mongering racist." I think you have me mixed up with another user. Thanks. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 04:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Very sorry, Eamonn. You're quite right, I meant Dunlavin Green. I'll correct it now. --08:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

IMOS
I forgot about that. GoodDay (talk) 19:26, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

The Brian Lenihans
Hi BHG, I am puzzled why you moved both Brian Lenihan articled without having a discussion on it. The last time they were moved there was a discussion on Brian Lenihan's (Father) talk page. While Brian Lenihan (Father) may be sometimes referred to as Brian Lenihan, Snr. There is no evidence for the current Irish Minister for Finance being referred to as Brian Lenihan, Jnr. The media refers to him as simply Brian Lenihan. His oireachtas entry says Brian Joseph Lenihan. Brian Lenihan, Jnr is a wikipedia invention. They have to be disambiguated but this is not the correct way. Snappy (talk) 16:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Snappy, I'm sorry -- I missed the discussion. Will stop dabbing and discuss it, but suggest we do so at Talk:Brian Lenihan, Snr.  I'll copy your post there and post my substantive reply there. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

UK motorways
Hi BrownHairedGirl. First I should declare an interest as I live within earshot of the English M3 (don't believe anyone who says it's minor!) and occasionally edit linked items such as St. Catherine's Hill, Hampshire etc, hence it has crept onto my watchlist by default. I'm not a member of WP UK roads and generally don't like motorways for environmental reasons. I have no very strong feeling one way or the other about motorway disambiguation. That said, it seems to me that (ignoring size, hit-count etc) there is a case for many UK motorways being primary topics, for the following reason. The word 'motorway' was (presumably) coined in Britain in the 1950s (it does not appear in the 1949 Special roads Act). So far as I can see it was first applied in the UK, from the late 1950s onwards. Other countries used different names for similar roads - autostrada, autobahn, autoroute, etc. Subsequently some (but by no means all) other countries where English is widely spoken have also applied the term - for example Ireland from the 1980s, Pakistan from the 1990s. Does it not therefore seem reasonable for UK motorways that existed prior to these dates to be primary topics? In the case of the M3 for example, this was largely built in the 1970s, with hard-fought planning battles delaying getting it past Winchester to join up the two ends in the 1990s. Pterre (talk) 18:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Pterre, and thanks for your msg.
 * I'm afraid that you appear to rather misunderstand the purpose of disambiguation in Wikipedia. It's not a way of ranking articles or topics, or an assessment of their inherent worthiness; it's a technical process to help readers get to the articles they are looking for, and secondarily to help editors maintain internal links so that they point to the right place.  (The latter process is much much easier if the primary topic is the disambiguation page).
 * The question of when a term was invented and by who doesn't really have much bearing on that. Even if we did delve into the history, it seems to me that the first such roads were the German autobahns in the 1930s, and that when the concept was copied in other countries they often used a similar word to describe them in their own language: motorway, autoroute, autostrada etc ... so the best calim fir the UK is that it was a translator, not an originator.
 * But as above, the origins aren't what matters. If we used a who-had-the-name-first logic, the primary topic for Baltimore would be an insignificant townland in County Leitrim rather than the city in Maryland.  And that would be thoroughly unhelpful to readers, who are far more likely to be looking for the city.
 * From the perspective of someone planning a journey or looking to k now the history of a road they have used, it doesn't matter whether it was built last week or 30 years ago: either way, it's still a motorway. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually I think the autostrada of Italy were first (in the 1920s) but that's beside the point: the article and the road is called 'M3 motorway', not 'M3 highway', 'M3 freeway', autobahn, autostrada etc. I was not suggesting that such roads were invented in Britain, only the term motorway. If you want to propose an M3 motorway for prime candidate based on who is likely to be looking for it, I'd go for road usage statistics. Do you have access to any? Pterre (talk) 13:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You still misunderstand me. I'm not looking for any candidate for prime position, because arguments over how to assess such things end up being sterile and POV, with all sorts of arbitrary and selective criteria used to bolster particular positions. I just want these articles of the same name to be properly disambiguated, i.e with a disambiguation page at M3 motorway.
 * We're using the English language here, in which "motorway" is a generic term to refer to this type of road. It's therefore quite reasonable for an English-speaking reader to look for an "M3 motorway" in France or Hungary or wherever, even if "motorway" is not the term used in the language of the country concerned. Disambiguation ensures that such readers have a clear path to the information they were seeking, and this is all about helping readers ... or rather it should be about readers. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you are right. However I would expect roads not actually named 'M3 motorway' to be disambiguated at 'M3', which I think is all except Pakistan and NI. Rgds Pterre (talk) 17:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The issue here is readers. Whether or not they are right to expect the article to be called Mx motorway, the issue is to help them when they do.  And there is an M3 motorway in Ireland, called the M3 motorway.  The fact that wikipedia covers it in an article of a different name doesn't make it any less real. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The purpose of a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is to give readers the article they are expecting to get to when they look at a particular title. To use your Baltimore example from earlier, in the vast majority of the cases the those who type that into the search box are wanting to read about the city in Maryland, USA so that is the article at that title, even though it would be just as reasonable for them to expect any of the other places and several of the other uses to be there. The evidence from google, internal links and page views all points to the majority of people looking for an M3 motorway wanting the one in Great Britain, so we should present them with what they are looking for. Thryduulf (talk) 19:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thryduulf, we've been over this before, but it seems you haven't been listening :(
 * the evidence from Google is that more stuff has been published on the web about the English M3, not that more ppl are looking for it. Hardly surprising that more has been written it, 'cos it's older, but age doesn't make it more relevant to  a reader.
 * The internal link count is misleading, because A) it includes links from navigation templates and B) the Irish M3 is covered in the article called N3 road (Ireland), so unless someone has created a link to the redirect and it has remained unbypassed, it won't show up in the link count
 * Despite the problems above, the English M3 gets less than half the hits of all uses of M3 motorway, so the majority of readers looking for the M3 motorway do not end up at the English M3.
 * Why do you keep on repeating a partial, partisan and simplistic view of the evidence? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

British Isles & Irish Sea
Howdy BHG. Can ya imagine the headaches if the British viewed Irish Sea as controversal? GoodDay (talk) 22:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and the British people living on the Irish sea are furious! ;) Jack forbes (talk) 22:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Britain causing headaches????? Whatever next! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * British fisherman perhaps? he he he. GoodDay (talk) 22:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know who named it the Irish sea? Perhaps it goes too far back for anyone to ever know and I don't see it in the article Jack forbes (talk) 22:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've no clue, but it would be hilarious if it was the same person who came up with 'British Isles'. GoodDay (talk) 22:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If he knew he was going to cause such headaches on wikipedia I'm sure he would have named them something else. Maybe something along the lines of Britain and Ireland? Jack forbes (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I sorta like the mischieviousness of it all. GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It'll be such fun when Scotland gets its independence and I argue for a mention in the lede about the controversy of the name Great Britain. :) Have we taken over BHG'S talk page? She's probably ran off screaming. Jack forbes (talk) 22:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Tis possible. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Denis Healey
I think we may be going across each other here.

I thought you undid it to take it out of the lead. I have made a minor correction after yours to and links etc but not to add or remove the contentious list of titles, which stand without now. If you want to add them back I am fine with that. I think perhaps I was a little confused at your aim.

With best wishes SimonTrew (talk) 13:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My mistake I was looking at the wrong history, so it showed you restoring the other user's removal, and I got the wrong side of it. I've restored the titles, but left the minor edits for the nationality (which was outside the infobox template ) and put British = English. He is/was not a British politician but an English one, i.e. elected in an English constituency and born in England any sense and particularly on political articles we need to say English not British, I think.


 * With my best wishes SimonTrew (talk) 13:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No prob Simon, it's easy to get confused, and I think that my edit summary could have been a bit clearer ... but I see you've fixed it all now. S we're sorted :)
 * It seems that both English and British are appropriate labels for him, and I don't think there's any stable consensus on which one to use other than to accept whichever label he chooses, if he states a preference. I'm fine either way, but I am aware that there seem to be some strong views in favour of both usages, so your change might provoke a discussion. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * yeah I was not sure about British or English, after all he was elected and now is a lord in the British parliament, it is the odd thing with the English not having its own parliament whereas the Scots do and the Welsh kinda do (the Welsh assembly) and t he Norther Irish do. So it is a tough one to call, there, I agree. Nevertheless, it was not linked or anything at all, so if it provokes a discussion that is quite fine with me.

glad you are happy I put it back. Stupid mistake of mine. SimonTrew (talk) 14:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Bot request
Now that you seem to be back, at least for a while, welcome back. I asked User:Anomie and User:AnomieBOT if he could tag all the Motorcycling WikiProject articles as stub-class which have the motorcycling stub Motorcycle-stub in the articles for our recently formed assessment department. I estimate about 2,750+ articles use the stub. The talk pages that are already (mainly incompletely) tagged use the Motorcycling project banner. There is also a redirect from WikiProject Motorcycling which is been used in about 100 talk pages and should possibly be replaced or at least checked for during the process. However, despite posting replies to others my request have been ignored for more than a month by Anomie! Your bot did such work of the Ireland project, so I know you can do it, but do you have the time? TIA ww2censor (talk) 15:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi WW2C, nice to hear from you.
 * My bot can do most of what you're looking for, but maybe not all of it. (ISTR that I didn't replace existing project banners if they already had any parameters set).
 * BHGbot is not a full-polished work, just a collection of rather crude perl scripts which I hack to do what's needed. And I'm afraid I won't have the time to do anything with it for the next few weeks -- I'll be offline in 48 hours, for about 3 weeks.
 * Sorry I can't be more helpful, but if you haven't got any other solution by then, pls remind me and I'll be happy to help. If I haven't reappeared on wikipedia, just send me an email to nudge me!
 * Best wishes -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

KildareStreet.com
Hi BHG, have you read (or heard of) the website http://www.kildarestreet.com/. It's a new Irish based website about members of the Oireachtas, similar to the British one called http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. It contains lists of speeches and voting records. (Btw, I have no connection with this website). A new user tried to added an external link for all TDs to this site but went about it the wrong way and raised hackles of some editors who reverted his changes as spam. He then tried again under a different but similar user name but was then blocked. I think it could be a useful addition similar to ElectionsIreland.org and Oireachtas Members database. Many MPs have a link to TheyWorkForYou. Obviously it would to be discussed with other interested editors on Irish wikipedians notice board first. What are your thoughts? Snappy (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Snappy
 * First thought is that I should declare a slight interest, in that one of kildarestreet.com's originators is someone I used to know, but have lost contact with over a decade ago (tho I still occasionally follow his blog). I have been watching the site since it started.
 * But FWIW, I think you're right. KildareStrret is a non-commercial, non-partisan site, very much in the same free-the-information spirit as wikipedia, and it actually uses the same software as http://theyworkforyou.com, which as you know has already been widely used on wikipedia as an external link.  The only problem with theyworkforyou is that it's so feature-packed user-friendly that a lot of editors used its auto-generated position summaries as a reliable source, when they are too crude for that.
 * So while I'd be very happy to see external links from all articles on TDs and senators to their page on kildarestreet.com.  I won't be around for most of this month, but if you do start a discussion, please feel free to point to this msg as an indication of my support (and my minor CoI!). It's a pity that someone has gone about this the wrong way, but that should not detract from the site's merits, and it'd be a loss to wikipedia if kildarestreet ended up on the spamlink blacklist. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI - BI reverting
Just to flag up to you the notice that I've placed on a number of editor's talk pages about reverting on BI nomenclature (i.e. ). The idea is to cut down on the pointless RV warring that's occurring at the moment. Your thoughts welcome (as well as suggestions for any other editors I've left out) - there's also a discussion going on at my talkpage as well.  Black Kite  22:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)  Black Kite  08:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think your concerns are unfounded. We have BRD for a reason, so it stands to reason that tag-teaming is generally disruptive - but not in all circumstances.  As I've said on my talkpage, if someone makes a well-sourced change to terminology, and it is blindly reverted, then the second edit is disruptive even if it isn't a revert of a revert. So articles aren't fixed. To answer your questions.
 * Editors are guided to use the Specific Examples page rather than edit-warring
 * I wouldn't block anyone for 1RR vio if they hadn't received the boilerplate message on their page that I placed last night.
 * One instance of reverting a revert is unlikely to attract a block unless it's particularly disruptive.
 * This is mainly meant to stop mass reverting sprees, such as we have seen from Tharkun, HighKing and MBM (amongst others) recently.


 * So, Kite, what you are saying is "if I like the edit it's cool if I don't like it I'll block". Or am I missing something? Sarah777 (talk) 10:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

N3, google it
I am proposing to move the N3 road article back to the primary location. Google indicates it occupies 80% of the top 20 returns. Assuming nobody objects (with valid reasoning) I will make the move at 21:00 GMT on 30 September 2009. Sarah777 (talk) 08:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sarah, the way to do that is to open a proper move request and present your reasons, not by individually notifying other editors.
 * To allow a proper discussion where a consensus can be sought for the proposed move, I have opened a procedural move request at Talk:N3 road (Ireland). Please make your case there. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I notice you have also made the move more difficult by changing dozens of links from N3 road to N3 road (Ireland) - while this is clearly under discussion. Perhaps you'd like to share your reasoning on this? The existence of all those N3 links relates to the fact that this was the primary location for the article untill it was moved, without discussion, without consultation by someone. I am restoring the status quo at 21:00 and I assume you'll fix all the links you are now breaking? Sarah777 (talk) 09:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Sarah, the disambiguation has not in any way made the move more difficult, nor has it broken any links. If the article is moved from "N3 road (Ireland)" to "N3 road", the redirect will ensure that all links work as intended.  If it is not moved, then a failure to disambiguate leaves the links pointing to the wrong place.


 * The article in question has been at N3 road (Ireland) since it was moved there from "n3 road" in July 2008, and remained there until you moved it to "N3 road" on 18 September. That move was reverted on 20 September, after which you moved it on 26 September to N3 national road, and I reverted it three hours later.


 * So the article was stable at N3 road (Ireland) for 14 months until your recent moves, both of which were contested. I opened a cetralised discussion on your moves to Nx national road at Talk:National primary road and notified you of that discussion, but so far you have not contributed to it.  Please seek consensus for your moves, rather than unilaterally announcing that you will move at a particular time. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Could you please refrain from "fixing" any other such links for Irish N-roads until we have decided on the issue of primacy; it is abundantly clear to me that maybe half of all the Nx terms have their clear primary location at Irish primary or secondary roads. Sarah777 (talk) 09:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have reverted your changes. Please do not do anything like that again. If I was the Admin in this situation you'd be looking at serious consequences for such a burst of disruptive editing. And note: I have no intention of consulting anyone where primacy is clear. There will not be  one rule for primacy on British roads and a "no-primacy" rule for Irish roads. Period. Sarah777 (talk) 09:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I will reinstate them. Disambiguating links does not in any way prejudice the outcome of a discussion, and your announcement of a unilateral threat to move an article does not constitute consensus for a change.  I will now seek move protection of N3 road (Ireland), and if you revert my disambiguation I will take the matter to ANI. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't we all take a step back here? BHG, you have already stated that you understand why Sarah can get a little peeved off concerning so called consensus on these articles. Sarah, I think you should listen to her as I believe you both agree on a lot of things concerning this, You just have different ways of going about it. Couldn't you both talk reasonably and come to a solution? Jack forbes (talk) 10:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Jack, thanks for your msg. As above I tried talking to Sarah about her moves to Nx national road, but even though I put a lot of work into the research she simply hasn't engaged in the discussion, and at User_talk:Sarah777 she has explicitly refused to try to build consensus on these issues.

Her latest exercise of reverting disambiguation of links is bizarre. I would have thought that Sarah would want to have links to Irish roads pointing to those roads rather than to a disambiguation page, because that helps readers find the articles to which she has made such a massive contribution. (I reverted only two of her reverts; another editor reverted the rest).

I'm also puzzled by Sarah's apparent inconsistency. Last week she was busy moving Irish roads to Nx national road, but now she wants to move themNx road. Whether Sarah is right or wrong on either of those goals, we need to discuss those things rather than just engage in a move-to-something-else exercise where "something-else" is inconsistent. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You reverted all my edits there and said it wouldn't solve the N3 problem. I agreed. So it is "inconsistent" to change my mind after you made what I thought was a good point? It is inconstant also that I accept the majority pov that "primacy" trumps dabbing? Sarah777 (talk) 10:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sarah, I'm sorry -- had missed your change of view on the Nx national road option, because you only posted that on your talk page rather than at the discussion I had opened (I was monitoring the latter).
 * As to primacy, it's unfortunate that you appear to be making the same mistake as the British editors, by regarding a primary topic as an issue of national pride rather than as a technical measure to be used in some cases. That's a mistaken approach, because it impedes both readers and editors, and applying it to Irish articles does nothing to reverse the damage by the primary-topic nationalism of some British editors; all it does is create more problems in another area.
 * The fact that you mass-reverted my disambiguation, including N2 and N52 links, does make me wonder what your aim is here. This should be all about helping readers get to the page they want, wherever it's located, but reverting disambiguation suggests that helping readers isn't on your radar. I hope I'm wrong, but that's how it looks for now. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Can we please discuss this at Arbcom? Sarah777 (talk) 11:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Arbcom please
As both yourself and Dpmuk have engaged in what I regard as massive edit warring and tag-team behaviour I wish to take this to Arbcom. If you are not prepared to restore the original links that have remained in place for years - until seconds after I proposed restoring the article to the original location. Can you arrange that please, as you know your way around the corridors of power better than I do? I'd prefer you revert your disruptive dabs but failing that please open a case at Arbcom. asap. Thanks. Sarah777 (talk) 10:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. Time up. Will one of you please refer this case to Arbcom? Sarah777 (talk) 11:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but if you want to open an arbcom case, I presume that you know the procedures. As noted above here and here, I won't be around for most of October, starting some time tomorrow, and I don't know how that will affect any arbcom process.  But I'm sure they will know what to do.
 * I have to say that an "I demand the right to re-ambiguate links which have been disambiguated" seems like a mighty curious case to bring to arbcom, but it's your right to start the process if you want to. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I asked you not to change all the other links - this is obviously your notion of collaboration? Again I ask: why did you start changing links that were undisturbed for up to 5 years within seconds of my move proposal? Answer please? Sarah777 (talk) 13:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Because I enjoy disambiguation, and when I started looking at this area I found that there were many hundreds of links to Irish n-roads which needed disambiguation. Please can explain what policy or guideline requires that ambiguous links remain ambiguous, and how leaving them ambiguous does anything at all to assist readers or impedes any decision on a move which you may propose in the future?
 * You seem to have missed an irony in all this, which is that this disambiguation actually actually assists your quest to make these roads primary topics. As you know, I don't support that objective, but disambiguating the links means that we will have an accurate count of the incoming links to the Irish N-roads, which is one of the criteria sometimes discussed in assessing whether there is a primary topic among ambiguous topics. Without disambiguation, the incoming links for all Irish roads will be massively under-counted. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems BrownHairedGirl that you are disrupting a user's attempt to make a point by building an encyclopedia. Chillum  14:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol! Should I shoot myself, or will you do it for me? ;) -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

ANI by Sarah777
User:Sarah777 has started an ANI thread against you here, it seems she failed to tell you! Anyway, I'll let you know on her behalf since I'm sure this was just an oversight on her side. Jeni ( talk ) 14:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I was hoping to get to Arbcom because I don't have much faith in ANI; and judging by the speed with which BHG and many others jump on any roads edits I make I think there is very little risk of this not been spotted. You turned up there in a jiffy - but then you turn up everywhere I go in a jiffy. Even to revert layout improvements of the M10 motorway (Great Britain). And I thought you had retired? Sarah777 (talk) 14:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just out of interest, do you have anything else in your vocabulary other than "I thought you had retired"? You are beginning to sound like one of those annoying little kids in a supermarket who just won't shut up! Jeni  ( talk ) 14:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Jeni, thanks for the pointer to the ANI discussion, but please don't use my talk page to spar with Sarah. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Photo requests
Is Dublin Airport convenient to where you are? If so, would you mind photographing the headquarters of Aer Lingus and Ryanair? Both are on the Dublin Airport site. Both articles need images of the respective headquarters. Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry! I currently live in England, and when I'm back in Ireland I get out of Dublin as quickly as possible. It's my native city, but these days I reckon the best thing about it in the N4. :)
 * And I haven't been in a plane for decades, so I don't go near the airport as I pass through the Pale.
 * However, is a prolific and very skilled photographer, who has contributed squillions of fine images of Ireland to wikipedia – in fact, she has taken so many photos that I suspect she has cloned herself, because that much photography would be to much for one person. ;-)   So may I suggest that you ask her whether she (or one of her clone photographers! [grin]) could help? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I already made that suggestion about a month ago. ww2censor (talk) 18:34, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ww - it's on my list! I was there once since you asked but conditions were semi-darkness; I'll try to get a good one. Or maybe I'll ask one of the clones :) Sarah777 (talk) 07:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

World domination
You appear to have an interest in my performance at WP. So I wonder what advice and actions you will take regarding the effective reversion of all my work (by consensus) by one user? --Ludvikus (talk) 04:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The user in question is this one: User:Toddy1. You have been judging me as a WP Editor (let's say I did not give you an "A" in my mind). Now I'm going to judge you as an effective WP Administrator. I do believe you have the potential to get an "A" from me - but only if you pay careful attention (unlike what you've done with me previously). I would love nothing better than to rate you as a great WP Administrator, even though I'm displeased with your performance regarding my most recent Restriction - which I believe you did not bother to sufficiently research. Now I believe that I'm the victim of this one editors arbitrary reversion against my slow work in conformity with consensus. So I expect you to take some very strong action in my favor - only because I'm right regarding WP. I hope you do the right thing by me this time around. --Ludvikus (talk) 05:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't have time to get involved. If you can't resolve the problem with the editor concerned, take it to WP:ANI. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:08, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

N11 road, clear primary location
BHG; I tried to move this from it's location at "N11 road (Ireland)", but like all the other Irish N-roads because that was it's long-standing and original location I can't move it back. As there is no possibly valid objection to primacy in this case would you please move it for me? Regards Sarah777 (talk) 08:23, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sarah, the N11 road (Ireland) is one of several roads bearing that name (see N11), including the ~500-mile long N11 road (South Africa), and six other national roads in Europe, some of which don't yet have articles. So I object strongly to making the Irish N11 a primary topic, and you really ought to know by now that if you dispute the validity of any objections, the appropriate course of action is to open an RM discussion at Talk:N11 road (Ireland).
 * Many articles are moved from their original locations for disambiguation purposes, and it seems to me that this one was moved quite properly -- it's just the sort of move that I have often done myself. It was stable at N11 road (Ireland) for 14 months from July 2008 until your move on 21 September 2009, which I reverted on 26 September 2009.
 * You may recall that your move on 21 September 2009 was to N11 national road, and that I opened a centralised discussion on that at Talk:National primary road. You didn't even contribute to that discussion, and now you are insisting that you will be the sole arbiter of what's a valid objection your latest preference for an article name.
 * This isn't the way to do things, Sarah. You know that these moves are contested, so seek consensus.  In the meantime I will ask that the N11 road (Ireland) and all the other Irish national primary roads be move-protected, so that no further moves take place without discussion ... and i will also open an RM discussion at Talk:N11 road (Ireland)). -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Geotagging of constituency areas
Can you take another look at the centralized discussion regarding geotagging constituencies, and tell me if you agree with my tentative conclusion, based on the comments there, that we should resume geotagging of these large areas, taking care to use the dim: parameter when doing so? Could you please reply on that page, in order to keep the discussion in one place? -- The Anome (talk) 09:53, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Sarah777's RfC
I have read your statement and agree with nearly all of it. However I can not agree to withdraw it. I sympathise with Sarah777's view and strongly suspect that none of her actions have been delibrately disruptive or delibrately intended to harm wikipedia but rather many of them have probably been made in the heat of the moment without fully thinking through the consequences. However at no point have they recognised this despite the commentry of several editors and that is why I started the RfC/U - I feel they need to recogise the problems they've accidently caused, realise how they've unintentionally acted inappropiately and agree to try not to do so again. I agree with your comments about the wider issue and agree that an RfC is probably the way forward on that. I too was concerned about this RfC/U appearing to pick on one person - although I think Sarah777's actions have been the worst I feel several other editors have acted almost as badly. Unfortunately my understanding of a normal RfC is that it's not for discussion of user conduct and the way RfC/U's are set up they are only about one user. To date I don't think any other editors have quite crossed the line to start an RfC/U on them (my bar is pretty high) although many of them are close and for some I may even be willing to certify if another user started an RfC.

As a more minor point I also can not agree with this statement: "Because of the numerical dominance of British editors over Irish, this leads to a form of systemic bias in which British roads are much more likely to be primary topics than Irish ones, regardless of the substantive merits of each case", as I feel it is too strongly worded I could support "...this can lead to a form...". I do however agree on the primary topic being a disambiguation page when two roads share the same name and the only reason I've not argued for that to date is that, in my opinion, it clearly goes against policy and so we'd need to change the policy first.

In the RfC/U I concetrated on the conduct without expressing my views on why the actions were taken and how I sympathise with many of Sarah777's view (as I've outlined above). With hindsight this may have been a mistake. However I am now unsure as to the best place to include this view in the RfC/U. Obviously I can not put them in the main bit of the "Statement of the dispute" section as another user has already certified based on what's there. I was thinking of putting my views either under the "Involved view" or as a new section under "Questions" in the "Statement of the dispute" section. Any advice on this would be appreciated. Dpmuk (talk) 15:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Should probably add that is was the de-disambiguating (is that a word? I'm sure you know what I mean) of links that decided me to start the RfC/U and that's also the main reason I won't withdraw it. Most of the other issues won't have affected readers but by doing this they made life harder for our readers to, in my opinion, make a point, and that, to me, is unacceptable. If they had accepted that this action was wrong I'd probably have been prepared to carry on with normal discussion rather than start an RfC/U. Dpmuk (talk) 15:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Dpmuk, thanks for your thoughtful msg ... and I'm sorry that this reply is going to brief. Unfortunately, in an hour or two I'm about to hit the road for 3 weeks, and I'll be offline all that time. Meantime I need to finish packing!
 * I'll make the small change to my statement that you suggest, and see if that makes it more inclusive, but as to the rest ... it seems that we agree on a lot, but can't quite agree on a path to a solution. :)
 * I take your point about Sarah's conduct having crossed a line, and I agree in principle ... but I just cannot see Sarah agreeing to any sort of repentance unless and until she sees that the wider problems have been resolved. From a long experience of Sarah's response to similar disagreements, whenever there are sanctions which are perceived as tackling the individual miscreants without addressing the structural problem that caused the conflict, it just gets interpreted (rightly or wrongly) as yet more systemic bias.  If you want to think of a more extreme parallel, think of people arrested in South Africa for protesting disruptively against the pass laws.  (I'm not in any way suggesting that Wikipedia is an apartheid state or that the difficulty here is remotely as serious, just trying to find an analogy of a situation where the wider community and the individual both have legitimate grievances against each other).
 * That's particularly difficult when there are people on the "other side" whose conduct is not[missing word inserted later] being scrutinised in the same way. While I'm sure you set and apply your threshold conscientiously, can you see why it can have the appearance of picking on Sarah777?
 * As to where to put your other thoughts, I'd be inclined to say that if you can't think of a precise slot, just IAR and put them wherever seems best (or least worst!) They are clearly a very important of your view of the problem as you see it, and the wirst thing woukd be to have thenm left out.
 * And that's it. Gotta finish one more reply before I run ... and then I'm outta here! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply - I hope you have an enjoyable road trip (or if it's work rather than pleasure a bearable road trip at the very least). I will consider carefully what you have said and yes, I can see why Sarah777 could see it as picking on her hence the desire to put a statement to the effect of the above in the RfC/U. Dpmuk (talk) 16:08, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm outta here now. Good luck to all in finding a mutually satisfactory amicable outcome to this ... and I look forward to returning in late October to an outbreak of peace :) -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:53, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Welsh Socialist/Huw Lewis
I've found a source to count Huw Lewis AM in the "Welsh Socialist" category, however not sure how I can actually reference it, since it wont fit in the article, and you cannot reference categorys. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/01/29/huw-lewis-ready-for-leadership-bid-91466-22806292/ --Welshsocialist (talk) 20:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Ditto for Edwina Hart. http://www.edwina4labour.com/news-articles.php?ArticleID=6. How would it be possible to include the references needed? --Welshsocialist (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Admin help
Hey,

I was wondering how I could become an administrator. I would like if you or other administartors could give me a few tips.This is because I can tell when an article sis not efficient enough but I can't create big or new articles. I just got the resilient barmstar award because i wanted to learn through criticism and kept getting repors on "newly-Created" articles.So if you could help, I would greatly appreciat it!

Cheers, TaRiX oF tAjUn 15:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I replied to him here as you are not active. ww2censor (talk) 17:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

New header--political party nominee
Back in February, I engaged in a discussion with some of the editors who are involved with succession boxes and headers. I started the conversation because I came across what I regard as a pretty significant error in the usage of one of the headers, namely, the header.

So, can you help me? Un sch  ool  02:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Unschool, and thanks for your message. I'm not spending much time on wikipedia at the moment, but I'll try to help if I can.
 * However, I'm not entirely clear about what the technical problem is. Can you explain to me what exactly you're trying to do, and where you are getting stuck?
 * What I think you mean is that you want a new template s-ppn, but I'm not sure exactly what you want it to do. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would like to see a new template created. When you ask, what do I want it to do?, I'm not sure I understand the question.  I just want it to exist, so that it can be placed in the stead of the  template where it is being misused.  Mind you, the ppo template is still necessary, it's just that it's being used for places where it is inappropriate.  It's as if someone had created a template for "African American politicians", but not one for "Hispanic politicians", and so then editors started using the Af-Am template for Hispanics, just becuse they "seemed similar".


 * For an example of what I mean, look at Lamar Alexander. At the bottom, in the succession boxes, under "Political Party Offices", Senator Alexander is listed as having three such offices:  Republican nominee for Governor, Republican nominee for Senator, and Chairman of the Senate Republican Conference.  But of those three, only the last is a political party office.  I would be okay with just eliminating the succession boxes for nominations altogether as being silly and unnecessary, but I'm a realist and know that that will never happen.  But at least I want them to be properly labeled, and calling them PPOs is simply wrong.  So that's why I want the template created for nominees.


 * Of course, perhaps I misunderstand all this. Maybe these templates and succession boxes have nothing to do with one another.  This is not my territory.  But I hope you can help me get these succession boxes properly labeled.   Un  sch  ool  03:04, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Am I being unclear? Is there anything I need to do to make it easier to understand what I need to do?  Un  sch  ool  03:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Well done!

 * Thank you! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:32, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh I did a similar one - where do we put a list of "Why is wikipedia always right?" Victuallers (talk) 20:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

List of Provosts of Trinity College, Dublin Table
Hi BHG, I am engaged in a dispute with another editor over the table in List of Provosts of Trinity College, Dublin. They insist on added column percentages to it, I have removed them but they keep reverting. I remember you once gave me a very detailed response which I used to do such a thing with tables. Any chance you might set this editor straight on this issue? Snappy (talk) 23:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the pointer. I have commented at Talk:List of Provosts of Trinity College, Dublin and also done a few tweaks to the page to prevent wrapping in the "incumbent" and "tenure" columns. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Scottish Parliament constituencies
Hey BHG. Long time no see! I have started updating the Scottish Parliament constituency articles now the Boundary Commission has published its final recommendations (or at least hinted at it!). I have not created red links yet, that'll be done once I've got the basic paragraphs out the way (and the election is 2 years away so there's no massive rush).

I notice the very good British politics user Laurel Bush no longer edits these pages, but hope I can get a few more peeps helping out a bit before the next general election rush starts. If I need a little help with the Scottish Parliament constituencies do you think you could give a helping hand? Cheers! doktorb wordsdeeds 15:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back
Thanks for looking over some of my recent entries and helping tidy them up, e.g. William Wiggins. Hope you had a gd break.--Graham Lippiatt (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Seconded! It's good to see you working around here again. Hope we can work together on the coming elections for both Wesminster and Holyrood! doktorb wordsdeeds 08:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Robert Hurst
Hey, are you writing an article for the bassist? If not I can take care of it. Chubbles (talk) 14:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I have no plans to write anything on Robert Hurst (musician). I was just disambiguating the Robert Hursts, and my interest is in the British MPs.  He sounds like a thoroughly notable jazzman, so it'd be great if you wrote an article on him. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Infobox name for peers
Hello I was wondering if you could be of some help, I remember a while back there was a disagreement over what should go in the infobox for Margaret Thatcher article ie Margaret Thatcher or The Baroness Thatcher is seem to recall you supporting the former as that is what has been known for most of her life but I am unable to find the discussion. I know its a long shot but do you know where I can find the discussion, the reason I ask is that I am having a similar problem at Michael Martin, Baron Martin of Springburn I think the end result was placing the title after the persons common name, many thanks. -- Barryob  (Contribs)   (Talk)  18:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Robert Woof (disambiguation)
Hello, just to let you know this page is nominated for speedy deletion, using {db-disambig}. Thanks, and keep up all your excellent work here. Boleyn3 (talk) 14:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your note, but I have a better solution., There's no primary topic, so I have moved the dab page to Robert Woof.
 * In any case, I question the merit of deleting a disambiguation page. It does no harm, and is ready for use if more articles are created. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree about User:Boleyn
I agree about your comments on the user talk page of Boleyn. I noticed a pattern of reverts and removals that bordered on destructive behavior by Boleyn, but I'm a nooB and didn't know exactly what the rules are about disamb pages. For reasons unknown to me, Boleyn kept removing a line on the Bill Wilson (disambiguation) page -- the line was "Bill Wilson (Americans for Limited Government)". I was planning to create the article, so at first it was a redlink. So Boleyn removed it saying "create the article first"; and I looked in the rules and I could see that she had a point. So I created Bill Wilson (Americans for Limited Government), then restored the link on the "BW disamb" page. Boleyn slapped a "notability" tag on the BW (Americans etc) article. It was a well-referenced article, clearly notable, so I was perplexed. Boleyn also removed the initial line at the top of the BW (Amer) article saying "this is about the activist; for others with the same name, see Bill W (disamb) line. Why? At first I missed the removal because I didn't compare revisions. And there was no mention of the removal in the edit summary. So I added it back. Thanks for improving the disamb link and removing the "notability" tag. Let me know what I can do to help you.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Tomwsulcer, and thanks for your msg.
 * While I have problems with some Boleyn's editing, much of her work does does have a useful purpose, because many dab pages include redlinks to non-notable people, often (tho not always) bordering on spam ... and removing those is a useful housekeeping job which she does.
 * In this case, as I think you agree, she was probably right to remove the redlink to Bill Wilson (Americans for Limited Government) from the disambiguation page Bill Wilson, because at that stage there was no evidence of notability, and the link looked to me like another of those redlinks to a non-notable person. If I'd come across it, I would probably have removed it myself.
 * However, this edit when she applied a notability tag is a bit troubling. I can understand removing the hatnote, because it was too verbose and in any case some editors dislike including hatnotes on disambiguated articles, but adding the {tl|notability}} tag seems bizarre.  WP:BIO defines notability as as "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject", all of which seems to be fully satisfied by the references to substantial coverage in major newspapers.  There may be some reason we have missed, but an explanation would be helpful, so I will drop a note to Boleyn linking to this conversation, and inviting her to comment.
 * Sometimes people just screw up (we're all human and do it from time to time), but it would be helpful to know whether this was one of those mistakes or if there was some reason which neither of us has spotted. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Thanks.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Troubles Arbitration Case: Amendment for discretionary sanctions
As a party in The Troubles arbitration case I am notifying you that an amendment request has been posted here.

For the Arbitration Committee

Seddon talk|WikimediaUK 16:40, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I have added my comment. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:44, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

New pages for Irish MPs
I notice you regularly edit new pages for IPP MPs which is great and complimentary. I have in the past gone through over 100 MPs in order to to have a unified introduction (and categs), and try to track new edits down to bring their introduction into line and not have them so vague, sometimes just saying XXX was an MP for XXX. Hopefully you will not find it audacious to ask if you could have all your introductions read: XXXXXX (185x–19xx) was an Irish nationalist politician who served as MP in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (not just United Kingdom). . etc Thank you for your help, Osioni (talk) 19:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi again Osioni
 * This kinda crossed with my reply your previous msg, which I had started before my meal, and only just finished. Some of the pints conflict.
 * I don't really hold with unified text in articles: there is more than one way of saying things, and so long as it is clear to the reader and good grammar, standardisation is not just un-needed, but a bit boring for the reader.
 * I also dislike your standard intro:
 * as above MP is wrong. Should be Member of Parliament (MP), to spell out the abbreviation
 * linking Irish nationalist is overkill. Irish nationalist mkes it easier for the reader to follow the link (two separately-linked adjacent words can be confusing)
 * The rest of the text is fine, but there are other ways of saying things, so long as the concepts are clear. It isn't really essential to spell out in every single article that 19th-century Ireland was part of the [United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland]].
 * -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:19, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Again thanks for your time. I am inclined to see the introduction in pragmatic terms, rather than needing to be pleasing. I condone the point 1) and was following most other editors on the MP abbreviation. Point 2) In all pages my approach is to consider readers abroad who might have reason to look up a particular name. I like giving them the Irish link to Ireland or People of Ireland. Nationalism is coming into strong disrepute around the world, and I have a problem with the article itself, that it does not reflect the particular kind of Irish nationalism those MP represented. I therefore make the division so as have Irish people detached from "nationalism": Maybe difficult to follow me, but I live for decades in the middle of Europe.


 * I do not advocate a standard or uniform introduction as such, many are very varied where the person was not only an MP. Ir is just the correct links to that period of our history, which edits are not clear in stating -- that at that time we were part of the UK of GB & Irl. I go so far as to be insistant on a link to that article to broaden readers understanding of the historic background, which to this day many editors make a point of not acknowledging. Wikipedia has hopefully no rule on this. Also edits like to use "British House of Commons", despite the fact that the page's correct title is the H of C of the UK I hope you will not try and clip my feathers on these two points. Osioni (talk) 16:59, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Osioni, my main concern here is that articles should be readable, and pleasing to the reader. That's important -- a well-written article will be read, whereas a reader will move on if the prose is impenetrable.
 * I'm sorry to say that I have been editing numerous articles in this area where the lead includes your standardised introductory phrases, but which is nearly unreadable. I have been encountering huge long sentences with a massive number of linked terms, often followed by a sentence fragment with no verb.  In some cases it appears that your standard text has just been pasted in with little attention to readability or grammar.  I;m sorry that this sounds a bit harsh, but since you are keen to have these articles assessed, it's something which you will find pointed out in the assessment process. Here's one example, though far from the worst: in this edit to Joseph Devlin, I reworked it to shorten the sentences and make things flow better.  Or another example: this edit to Tom Kettle. The aim of the lead should be to make text which flows smoothly and summarises the article (see WP:LEAD), not to overload the paragraph with links to every relevant topic.
 * In the Tom Kettle artcle, it referred to him as an "nationalist, Home Rule politician". That's unnecessary -- how many nationalists were opposed to Home Rule?
 * Yes, you're quite right that Ireland was at the time part of the UK of GB & Irl, but that fact does not need to be spelled out in full in the lead section of every article relating to the politics of that period. Trying to do that is having the opposite effect to what you want to achieve: it's causing such a flurry of links in such long sentences that it's easiest for the reader to just skip over it all.  Sometimes less is more, and well-written lead which links only a few crucial concepts will be far more useful to the reader.  Other concepts can be dropped in later: e.g. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland could be linked in a later paragraph.
 * Anyway, sorry if all of this sounds a bit negative. It's great that you are working to expand coverage of this area of Irish history -- my concern is solely that you are overloading the lead sections. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Dear Brownhairedgirl, sorry to give you all the writing, which I do appreciate. I am 98% fully in agreement with you. Firstly, I did not create Devlin nor Kettle, but at one time added a fair amount to the body of both articles. I have not focused on other contributors imperfect phrasing which admittedly at times is hobbledy due to a disregard for the previously existing texts. Admittedly at times my phrasing may have a German tinge to it, but I’d hardly leave out a verb. There are those who have a gift for tidying up, and enjoy it. All praises to them. To re-cap, there are just three items of importance I keep an eye on. I see any article in the light of how we represent ourselves to the world, from Moscow to Melbourne. That when saying someone was an “Irish” xxx, the link to “Irish people” is more presentable, than just - was an “Irish nationalist” or “Irish unionist” on its own. This is my reason for splitting which I wish to adhere to and which I do not regard as an over-kill. I see most others also edit that way as well.

I admit I made the mistake of speaking about a common introduction. What I meant was, that I see the need to include just two phrases in order to reflect the context of the nationalist situation a century ago. Just to say xxx was a Member of Parliament  and leave the “where” as a  nebulous cloud in the sky, is airbrushing the perhaps unpleasant fact that it was in the disliked Commons of the equally disliked UK of IRL & GB. (not  the Parliament of Ireland, nor Dáil Éireann). Of course it does not have to be at the immediate beginning of the article (unless a stub where nothing else is known).

The argument that a seldom reader going through all MP articles would find it repetitive does not carry weight for me, the centre of my concern is noticing that much of our history from that period has been largely airbrushed out of common knowledge. Anyone, school-students, immigrants, someone researching abroad, trying to grasp the background of that period after picking up on any one name,  should not be deprived of intrinsic details. The "Union" was the centre piece around which all Irish political activity hinged, which MPs were chained to, until severed. Very obvious to us, but its implications not grasped by all. The tendency has always been to airbrush disliked facts out of our history, from an understanding of unionism to our involvement in WWI.

This is not just for us now nor just for people around the world, but for the future in 500 years time as J.W. says. Most Nationalist MPs were Home Rulers, true, some separatists (Ginnell). If I understand you, you imply that saying Ketttle was a Nationalist and Home Ruler is an overstatement. In his special case however he spoke out more strongly than others in favour of Home Rule, is mentioned in both the biographies I have; in his book "The Ways of War" p.4 he says ''My only programme for Ireland consists of equal parts of Home Rule and the Ten Commandments. My only counsel to Ireland is, that to become deeply Irish, she must become European''. Actually deserves a blockquote.Osioni (talk) 19:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Rating of Nationalist articles
I am glad to have the present contact, because I have another quirk that has been in my notes for over a year, that is, why are Nationalist articles rated either Start or max "B" standard, whereas other articles (chiefly "Republican" articles) are quickly rated GA or Featured. On a more moderate level, comparing two pairs of articles (of just two example) there is an obvious discrepancy, comparing Willie Redmond died WWI and referenced is rated Start, whereas The O'Rahilly died Easter week is rated B, the quality of both articles nearly identical. Again Timothy Michael Healy rated B, Boyle Roche rated GA, the latter article certainly no better.

Now I am not asking for an up rating of the Nat- articles just because a large number are mine (in fact I am probably the sole consistant contributor to the Nationalist period - see my page). It is just the disparity, as well as the fact that the Rating Template has no date and no name of who rated. I am close to beginning to re-rate myself. Why is Parnell still at B level (which it was prior to the time I re-edited it completely three years ago), but since then should have been reviewed by the person who rated it in the first place, but their name is not around.

I know I have to update and reference a number of my articles, which I have lined up - example Irish Convention. Will find time over xmas !. Finally, I leave you with this to reflect on. I admire all admins., that you have the devotion, time and enegry for such a trying task. Osioni (talk) 19:17, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Rating isn't a very systematic business, and not many editors are assessing Irish articles. If you want a review of an article's assessment, you can place a request at WP:IE/A, though yu may not get a quick response.  However, it; is considered bad form to assess articles to which you yourself have made  a substantial contribution.
 * If you think that an article may meet the good article criteria, then you can follow the instructions at WP:GAC and someone will usually come along quite quickly to start reviewing it. I strongly recommend only nominating one article at a time until you get used to how the standards are applied. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:52, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful suggestion, but before years pass, and as I have seen that you also "Rate", any chance of a short cut to move Willie Redmond (above) out of his (ludicrous) start status? The page is about as complete as can be. Just if you have a minute to spare while working through the nationalist articles. Osioni (talk) 19:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Cfd rename
Kbdank71 doesn't like anything that brings changes to Cfd. This is my personal conviction, based on his responses in various discussions (not to me specifically). And perhaps he has a small personal dislike for me as well, but that I am not sure of. I'd appreciate it if you could remove this comment after reading it. I'd like to avoid clouding the discussion with personal remarks, as happened the first time I made this nomination. Debresser (talk) 00:41, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I cherish transparency, and archive all my talk page threads rather than deleting them. Everything stays on the record.
 * Don't worry about Kbdank71 seeing this. I've interacted with hir on-and-off at Cfd for about fifteen millennia, and I haven't seen hir bear grudges ... so I'm sure we'll all decide this one on its merits. As I noted at the CFD discussion, I usually find that Kbdank71 has a good reason for taking a particular view, even if I disagree with it. Let's assume that applies here unless there is some good evidence to the contrary. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Category:Elections in ...
I'm kind of lost. Why have you put Oldham by-election, 1899 into Category:Elections in Lancashire, but Ashton-under-Lyne by-election, 1920 into Category:Elections in Greater Manchester? Regards, Mr Stephen (talk) 12:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Purely an oversight. Both by-elections should be in Category:Elections in Lancashire ('cos they were in Lancashire at the time) and in Category:Elections in Greater Manchester, because the area is now in Greater Manchester.  Will fix it now, and thanks for pointing it out. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Regards, Mr Stephen (talk) 12:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Abingdon (UK Parliament constituency)
I'm curious about and the partial comment "re-order sections per WP:LAYOUT"; the thing is, you didn't. WP:LAYOUT states that "See also", being a list of wikilinks, should come before the notes and references; you moved it after. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:21, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear; I have made that change to dozens of articles. My bad. :(
 * You're right, and thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't checked WP:LAYOUT for a while, but was sure that the rule was to work outwards from the article: first the refs to back up article content, then related reading on wikipedia ("See also"), then stuff elsewhere ("external links").  Seems like that certainty was misplaced, because the current version of WP:LAYOUT is as you say ... and I can't even find an earlier version which follows the order I recalled. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Troubles
BHG,

I read your comment on the ArbCom amendment request. I think we are on the same wavelength WTR moving past the "Troubles". I posted a message to Rockpocket regarding an idea I had and would like to get some feedback on. It's just the bones of an idea so don't take it too literally, but if you could would you comment on it too?

 Rock, I had a thought while reading through VK's troubles on ANI. A lot of attention gets paid to the fairly small number of editors with problems keeping their cool on British-Irish articles (or are out to push particular views). Little attention gets paid to editors that can keep their cool and can work together. My though was on how to at once raise the profile of cooler heads and to put a squeeze on behavior we would like to see an end of. What I thought of was a kind of voluntary code or set of principles that cool headed editors could (naturally) adhere to and which could form a pocket of opinion around which others could be drawn into. A top-of-the-head writing of such a code is in my second sandbox. The idea is that cool headed editors could sign their names to something like this and follow it as a code of conduct. Signatories could display a button or userbox on their user page to indicate their support for the principles. With enough signatories, momentum could be shifted onto behavior we want to encourage and an "abnormalising" effect given to behavior we want to discourage. Or maybe I'm being naive.

Regards, --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 21:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi RA,
 * I have just read your proposal, and i think it's all good ... but I'm afraid that I don't think it gets to the heart of the problem, which is the POV-suppression.
 * When I wrote my addendum at the the ArbCom amendment discussion, I was trying to focus on the fact that this is at heart about content. It seems to me that your proposal is mostly about conduct, which is a symptom of the problem, but not the substantive problem ... and that these intractable disputes could continue even if all the editors concerned were observing 1RR and being scrupulously polite.
 * I have read reports that the IRA prisoners in the H-blocks in the 1990s (and possibly in the 80s too) spent a lot of time in political education, and that one of their methods was to learn to argue a persuasive unionist case. The understandings which came from that process were crucial to the Good Friday Agreement, and it often seems to me that one of the reasons the unionists have greater difficulty adjusting to the changed environment.
 * So it seems to me that something similar would be helpful here. If we had a period where the two opposing camps switched sides, and sought to promote the opposite POV, I think that we would see huge progress on all the articles involved. I have no idea how we could get such a process started, and I suspect it'd be completely impossible on wikipedia.  But I wish we could do it. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I do get you and that's what I was trying to promote. We need to refocus away from adversary and onto collaboration. This is supposed to be an "collaborative" encyclopedia after all. What's in the sandbox isn't perfect, I know, it's right "spirit" that needs to captured and I'm not sure how to describe that. Ignore the bullet points - they only deal with behavior which is the thinest element - although I do think a restrained behavior is better when dealing with things that are touchy to other people.
 * You're right the behavior is just a symptom. But I don't think you're going to get anyone to sit around and discuss their feelings. Neither can ArbCom solve the problem by giving admins bigger sicks to beat bad behavior out of people. What I'm interested in seeing is if it is possible to build a groundswell of good example of editors who, regardless of their POV, are willing to openly state that while they disagree (utterly sometimes) they are mature enough and "professional" enough to recognise that this is an encyclopedia that we are writing and not a place to push one view or another. All views need to be seen.
 * It's that example of maturity/professionalism that I seeing if people would sign up for (and abide by) and visibly promote.
 * Feel free to edit the page BTW if there is anything you would change add etc. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 23:58, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleting DAB pages?
What is the policy on deleting DAB pages? Is that found under miscellany for deletion? I have a page which needs to be deleted to make way for a page move, but I am not certain how to go about it. Cheers! ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 15:09, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It should very rarely be either necessary or useful to delete a disambiguation page. They sometimes need to be removed, but rarely deleted.
 * Which page are you referring to? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:17, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry. It would have helped if I'd been more specific.  I am referring to The Johnny Cash Show.  I want to move The Johnny Cash Show (TV series) to the other name, but cannot do so while the dab page still exists. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  16:04, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks to me like it's a perfectly valid dab page, usefully disambiguating two easily-confused names. Why not just keep everything where it is, and use popups to disambiguate any incoming links?? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I just disambiguated them myself. All sorted?
 * (BTW, I been a big Cash fan myself for decades. Got loads of his albums). -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 16:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Special school
Since you were the one that said I didn't provide a reason in my requested move for Special school, I provided one. Can you at least read it? Rovea (talk) 17:34, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Will do. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. If I can't get anyone to agree with me, I may just withdraw my nomination. Rovea (talk) 19:40, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that it doesn't seem that there is much support for your proposal at the RM discussion so far, and I'm just about to post there to say you haven't persuaded me. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I posted another response one minute after you. Rovea (talk) 21:57, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I've said my say. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:00, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What was wrong with the argument? Rovea (talk) 22:02, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've said my say. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Category:Rail vehicles manufacturers comment
Your comment there appears to be misplaced or misstated. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the pointer. Now fixed! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * For a second I thought I was reading a reply I wrote. ;-) Vegaswikian (talk) 03:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Navbox
Hi BHG, are you on a personal misson against Navbox? What's the story? Snappy (talk) 00:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, on most wikipedia articles, succession boxes and navigation templates appear at the bottom of the article, below all footers, per WP:FOOTERS.
 * That's a good place for them, because down there they don't interfere with the reading of the article If you want to find the categories, that's easy: they are the only things below the succession boxes and navigation templates are the categories and stub tags. So If anyone wants to read the categories, all they have to do is scroll to the very bottom of the page.  On most browsers, that just takes one press of the "end" key.
 * So navbox is unnecessary: it's hiding something which isn't in the way. And that makes it a nuisance, because reading the succession boxes requires wiggling the mouse to find the button to expand them.  Why put the reader through all that hassle?   No reason that I can see, 'cos it's only used on some Irish articles.  The rest of wikipedia does great without it.
 * It's also a pain for disambiguating links which may be in succession boxes (something I do a lot of), because instead of just being able to search the whole page, you have to first scroll down and expand this unnecessary wrapper. The time taken slows down the job significantly.
 * So when I edit a page with a navbox, I remove the wretched thing. One of these days I intend take this irritating thing to WP:TFD, and get it killed. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:51, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, you make some terribly weak and some good arguments about Navbox. The weak one is: "requires wiggling the mouse to find the button to expand them. Why put the reader through all that hassle?", very amusing, one extra mouse click is some much "hassle", what kind of readers are these, that one extra mouse click will tip them over the edge?!


 * Your other point about searching for links in an article which are hidden by the closed Navbox, is something that I have come across myself and yes it can be annoying. I wasn't aware that Navbox was only used on Irish articles. Take it to TFD if you must. Snappy (talk) 15:30, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not just wiggling the mouse. The button to expand the box is rarely on the first screen, so there's scrolling involved as well. All to no benefit. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:52, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh my God scrolling! The horrors never cease! ;-) Anyway, can I ask to stop your one person crusade against Navbox until a discussion has taken place in a wider forum? Thanks, Snappy (talk) 16:38, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Read any of the studies on useability, by Nielsen or others. Both those activities are a serious impediment to useability.  Hiding content to no useful purpose is just putting obstacles in the path of the reader.
 * Anyway, I'm not "on a crusade". I just remove it from articles I encounter in the course of my editing, in the same way as I remove other cruft. I have not been systematically going around deleting it off dozens of articles. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:12, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough then. I've been having a look around wikipedia at major political figures like Barack Obama who has a customised Navbox type box, and her maj who also has a another customised one which defaults to hidden. So much for consistency! Also, the user who created Navbox and added it to many articles (Gnevin) has retired, so there will be no input from them. So, if you want to remove from the Irish articles, I'm not bovvered! However, I don't think it should be deleted as there are a few cases where it can be used. Snappy (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw, you said "I'm not on a crusade. I just remove it from articles I encounter in the course of my editing, in the same way as I remove other cruft.". Yet in these edits,, , , , the only edit you made was to remove the Navbox. Maybe not a crusade but defo a minor campaign! Snappy (talk) 20:03, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * zOMG, FOUR edits!!!!!!! Hold the front page!!!!
 * Snappy, please calm down: 4 edits is not a campaign. Those were articles I ran across through related material, and as with other articles I encounter that need tweaking, I edited those ones to make them more readable.
 * Yup, navbox was created by Gnevin to help with some of the GAA articles which had dozens of team and awards templates on them. I'm not persuaded that it's particularly helpful in those cases, because it has tended to be used simply to allow the templates to be placed at the wrong point in the article, but I see the case for it there.  Similarly for Lizzie Windsor and Barry O'Bama, whose articles have attracted lots of these navigation boxes.  But what on earth is the point of it on articles like Mildred Fox?  She has one succession box, that's all.
 * In most instances, navbox is just a nuisance ... and in many of the cases where it has a lot to hide, it would be more useful to the reader to question the appropriateness of splatting articles with so many navigational-series templates. Far too many of them are being created just because they can easily be generated from a list which is easily accessible anyway, rather than because they provide a practical help to navigation. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:33, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've calmed down now, I realise you are not on a crusade, or a campaign or even a quest! I see your points on disadvantages, and have no objections to its removal from Irish political articles. Btw, looking at what links here, Navboxes is fairly widely used on wikipedia. Snappy (talk) 23:25, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Welsh socialists
discussion moved to User talk:Welshsocialist, to keep it all together