User talk:Burningview/Archive 1

Outline of British Columbia - congrats
Wow, this article you created sure is generating a lot of attention!

Congratulations. You picked just the right subject. Nicely done.

The more people who provide feedback on the outlines, and the more issues about outlines that get ironed out in discussion, the better.

Keep up the good work.

The Transhumanist 22:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Invitation
Here's something to take your mind off of the MfD...

Thank you for creating the Outline of British Columbia.

You are cordially invited to join WP:WPOOK. If you are interested, please sign up on the volunteer's list there.

I look forward to working with you.

The Transhumanist 21:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the Support
I thought I was doing Wikipedia a service helping out with the Outlines project, and did not realize there are users on here that object to the idea of it so harshly. I appreciate the kind words and will work with you on this project. I have recruited users who have more knowledge than me on Canada's provinces to help out. I will admit that I am ignorant with the subject, but the idea went off in my head at the time to create the O of BC page because I thought it would be a good thing to have comprehensive, and great outlines for the Canadian provinces; like the U.S. states have. Thanks for the support. Burningview (talk) 00:41, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, you did us (Wikipedia) a wonderful service. You see, we (WP:WPOOK) just placed over a thousand banners and notices concerning outlines to increase editor awareness, and we weren't absolutely sure what the response of the community would be. Some feedback was trickling in, but you blasted it wide open. (Which is what we wanted).  You had no way of knowing that we generally create new outlines as drafts away from article space to avoid AfD nominations (which deletes premature pages, prematurely, in my opinion).  But when I moved your draft, I forgot to remove the link from the main OOK page, and apparently someone spotted it there, clicked on it, and tried to nuke (AfD) the page.  It turned out that AfD was the perfect place for positive feedback to surface.


 * Because the OOK team has been concentrating on Geography outlines for the past year, I wasn't planning on unleashing the OOK team on the Canadian provinces until after we spent some time beefing up coverage of other areas of knowledge. But sometimes we have to sail where the wind takes us.  And that wind turned out to be you!  Congratulations, you are a driving force!


 * Don't worry about ignorance. I started most of the outlines, and I knew diddly squat about most of their subjects when I did. My favorite one so far is on robotics, about which I knew almost nothing - I think it turned out pretty good.  Making a map is one of the best ways to learn the landscape.  I applied the same approach to learning the landscape at Wikipedia - I built the Department directory and led the overhaul of the Help system (which is a menu or site map of Wikipedia's help pages).  Once you have a map, you can go just about anywhere!


 * All you need to start a journey are wits and will, and you have both in abundance. Know-how you pick up along the way.


 * I'm pleased to meet you. And I look forward to a long and successful collaboration with you.


 * So, what subjects are you going to tackle next? :)


 * The Transhumanist 01:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Opposition
Well, it's not opposition to outlines only. Outlines are a type of list, and these pages had opposition long before we renamed them to "outline of".

Topic lists and lists in general have been under attack by fans of the category system, by fans of portals, by fans of navigation templates, and by many others ever since they were created. We lose many lists to AfD, but list builders create more lists faster than they can be deleted. So the number keeps growing and growing. :)

There's this idea that we shouldn't have any duplication of effort. But different people do things differently and from different approaches, and if you force them all to do things the same way, many of them will simply leave. Sometimes it's better to play leapfrog...

Wikipedia's leapfrog guideline (WP:CLN) explains the relationship between categories, lists, and navigation templates, and tries to end the ongoing editor war between them. The interesting thing about list builders is that even though lists bear the brunt of this war's deletion attempts, we generally don't try to delete pages from the other systems. We've got better things to do, like build more lists! :)

Much of the opposition comes from people who don't understand outlines very well, or their benefits. Therefore, one of the most important activities of (WP:WPOOK) is to write about Wikipedia's outlines. I'm almost done writing the guidelines on outlines, which has grown to 3 pages:
 * Outlines
 * Why do we have outlines in addition to...?
 * Comparison of Wikipedia's and Britannica's outlines of knowledge

I'm also working on a draft intended to replace the article "outline", but as you might have guessed, I'm spread pretty thin, and I could use all the help I can get on it.

Don't let the opposition stress you out:

Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein

Keep in mind there is much more support for lists and outlines than there is opposition. Otherwise they wouldn't exist!

The Transhumanist 02:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

RE:So, what subjects are you going to tackle next?
I have no idea. Usually (with me) I take on the easy, but time-consuming tasks on Wikipedia like categorization; i.e. tagging articles under the scope of there respective WikiProjects related to them. Also putting template messeges at the top of articles.(Of course I'm sure you know about all of this; so no need of explaining, LOL). It is only when creative inspiration strikes me that excites me to do something greater on Wikipedia. But I will be offering my services to WOOK for the meantime. All this attention I have recieved in the past few days over an article I created; really has motivated me to get on Wikipedia more often, its alot more exciting. Burningview (talk) 02:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you have WP:AWB, Firefox, WP:WikEd, and WP:LINKY?


 * We have several high-powered wikignomes on the project. I'm sure they'll be glad to meet you.  And we have lots of tasks of the type you mentioned.  I generally assign them to each wikignome's talk page.  I'll be posting a new round of tasks soon.


 * By the way, please put new messages at the bottom of user talk pages. I didn't spot your "Canadian Provinces" post for weeks.  Most users keep messages in chronological order, and I always jump to the end to look for new messages.


 * The Transhumanist 03:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

British Columbia
How is BC the 7th province to enter Confederation? BC is the 6th province to enter confederation, and historically correct facts support that. єmarsee •  Speak up!  03:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Go look at the Canadian Confederation article; it has BC listed as 7th there. I didn't know which one was correct.Burningview (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ask him for his references. The Transhumanist  17:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Northwest Territories is not a province of Canada, and since you're from the US, it's like Puerto Rico not being a state of the US, it's a territory. If we included provinces and territories, then BC would be 7th. єmarsee  •  Speak up!  22:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline update - Good news and bad news - 06/08/2009
The big push continues.

And it seems to be working!

The good news is that there's growing support for outlines, and there are more editors than ever editing them!

The bad news is that the complainers are disproportionately represented on the project's various talk pages. While many editors work diligently on the front end, a handful of complainers are trying to tear down the project behind the scenes. Fortunately, barely enough supporters have been watching those pages that no consensus for moving or merging the outlines has succeeded. So far...

Big problem: ignorance of what outlines are for and their benefits
Most of the opposition seems to be unaware of the complete range of what outlines are used for. They just don't get it.

This is why it is important to complete the outline article draft. An article with a comprehensive treatment of outlines would be the perfect place to refer anybody unfamiliar with outlines to.

Opposers also don't seem to understand how outlines differ from some other page type that they prefer. Some think articles are good enough as an overview, others think portals are more in-depth, still others think categories or navigation boxes are the most efficient and useful way to organize and present topical information. Some have simply never seen an "Outline of" page before and think they are a new type of page (they've been around under other names since 2001).

If you run across anyone who doesn't understand the role of outlines on Wikipedia, Why do we have outlines in addition to...? might help reduce their misconceptions or uncertainties about outlines.

On the bright side, you've got to see this...
To add the outlines and related support pages to your watchlist (takes less than 30 seconds), cut and paste them from WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist into your raw watchlist. For a way to improve the display of your watchlist - by namespace (very useful) - see Watchlist sorter, or use the "super fast upgrade" at WP:OTS.

Or go to WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist using Related changes (currently without the talk pages) and click on "Related changes" in the toolbox menu on the sidebar on the left side of your screen.

The big push
The big push started with about a thousand banners and notices being placed on article talk pages all over Wikipedia.

But it didn't stop there...

Welcome our new members...
The following Wikipedians have joined the OOK team.

Be sure to stop by their talk pages and introduce yourselves.


 * Tarheel95 - going after the Main Page.
 * Vivio Testarossa / Feinoha - here to help.
 * Burningview - made a splash at MfD with WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of British Columbia (see the talk page for the MfD link - lots of support there).

Enter the mentors!
I asked a bunch of mentors at WP:ADOPT for advice. Several of them answered on my talk page. Most of those who replied were happy to help, and posted some very good ideas. A couple even joined the project.

Here are their ideas, and what is being done about them. A few of the tasks still need volunteers:


 * Strdst grl: Create and place project banners - already ✅
 * Strdst grl & The Earwig: put an animated ad for the project in WP:BANNER - Our graphics specialist Penubag is looking into it.
 * Strdst grl: Create a userbox for the project - assigned to Penubag.
 * Garden: Ask to have outlines added to next year's WikiCup competition - ✅ (proposal posted)
 * Tarheel95: Add a link to Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge to the Main Page - Tarheel95 is taking on the creation of the proposal
 * SriMesh: Create an outreach subpage to WPOOK - ✅ (invitation coming soon, see below)
 * SriMesh: (Create a newsletter archive subpage) - ✅
 * SriMesh: Add a feed to AlexNewArtBot to gather links to new outlines and post them on a page. Then personally invite new creators to the project. - who wants to tackle the feed?
 * SriMesh: Assign someone to monitor the outlines via watchlist, and invite new outline editors to the project - any volunteers?
 * Related: Create an invitation - Penubag is working on it.
 * SriMesh: Create Template:Expand outline similar to Template:Expand list, which adds each outline it is posted on to Category:Incomplete outlines, where editors (who are browsing the categories) can find them and work on them - to be assigned
 * SriMesh: Add the above template to incomplete outlines - upcoming AWB task
 * The Earwig: "Tell your wikifriends about it" - I've told mine, have you told yours?
 * The Earwig: "Collaborate with other WikiProjects" - we've been doing this from the start (each outline is associated with at least one other WikiProject).
 * : move the projected outline to a subpage of WP:WPOOK - ✅

Linking to outlines has begun
To the tops of about 30 subject articles, I placed a test batch of hatnotes leading to the corresponding outlines. The hatnotes look like this:


 * For a topical guide to this subject, see Outline of X.(Hidden: <!- PLEASE LEAVE THIS LINE IN PLACE because it leads to the page that serves as the table of contents for Wikipedia's overall coverage of this subject. Thank you.-->

The rationale for the hatnotes is that each outline is a topical guide for its subject, and since tables of contents go at the front of a book, a link to each outline should be placed at the front of its subject.

Unfortunately, not all editors agree. Some of the hatnotes have already disappeared. :(

Some past discussions pertaining to the existence or location of outlines
Note that the "Lists of topics" are of two types, including outlines and indexes, so discussions to remove, move, or merge those are usually relevant to the OOK. Also, outlines are a type of list, so discussions that affect lists in general also pertain to outlines. We've got to be on our toes!


 * Move navigational lists to portal namespace
 * Articles for deletion/Outline of Islamic and Muslim related topics
 * Articles for deletion/Outline of South Africa
 * Articles for deletion/List of basic visual arts and design topics
 * Articles for deletion/List of basic mining topics
 * Articles for deletion/List of basic management topics
 * Articles for deletion/List of basic industrial topics
 * Articles for deletion/List of basic computer science topics
 * Articles for deletion/List of basic Canada topics
 * User talk:The Transhumanist/Archive 21
 * Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of British Columbia
 * Talk:Switzerland
 * Outline of science converted to redirect by Dbachmann
 * Village pump (policy)/Archive 64
 * Administrators' noticeboard/Archive193
 * Village pump (proposals)/Archive 47

I've excluded links to live discussions, out of respect for WP:CANVASS.

Table of contents to OOK-related stuff
Here's a directory of outline support pages:


 * Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge
 * Lists
 * WP:CLN
 * Stand-alone lists
 * Outlines
 * Why do we have outlines in addition to...?
 * Comparison of Wikipedia's and Britannica's outlines of knowledge
 * WP:WPOOK
 * WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Projected outline

Keep up the great work!
The Transhumanist 04:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Watchers needed
Burningview,

Please follow the watchlist editing instructions at.

Then check your watchlist every time you log on.

Thank you.

The Transhumanist 23:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

WPOOK advert banner under development, here's the beta...
Thank you to those who suggested WPOOK have an animated advert banner. Penubag got working on it right away. Here's what he's come up with so far:

Penubag needs feedback.

I've posted a few changes for him to make to it.

Please post additional comments and suggestions for him at User talk:Penubag.

Thank you.

The Transhumanist 02:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline collaboration!
As you know, Penubag is working on a banner to advertise the Outline WikiProject. And he's almost done.

The banner prominently presents the "Outline of chocolate", which of course will become the most widely advertised outline as soon as the banner goes live. The first thing many editors will do after seeing the banner is look for that outline.

The problem is, we don't have one.

So that's our first outline collaboration!

I started a draft this morning.

It needs to be finished and moved to the article namespace before we can start using Penubag's banner ad!

Come join in on the fun. It's chocolate!

The Transhumanist 21:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Burningview, what's missing?
You're new to the project, and therefore haven't been blinded to the obvious by staring at the same pages for almost 4 years like I have. :)

Would you do me a favor and look over Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge and tell me what's obviously missing?

The Transhumanist 20:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Look at the whole page Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge. What subjects are missing that really should be on there?


 * I'm already aware of the missing Canadian provinces. :)


 * But what else is missing that is sorely missing.


 * Notice that Geography is already way more developed than the other sections. What subjects should we add to those other sections?


 * The Transhumanist 21:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

WPOOK's advert banner is done!


Is it perfect? Can it be improved?

Penubag loves feedback. Please let him know if it can be further improved.

Thank you.

The Transhumanist 23:09, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Whats Missing
Ive found on the OOK portal that some of the branches of philosophy are missing, and they have no outlines currently. I'm adding the remaining ones and i'm going to see about starting a few of these outlines. Burningview (talk) 17:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ive took the liberty in creating the article Outline of Christianity. Islam is the only outline started out of all the religions. I'm going to be working on these religion outlines my friend. Burningview (talk) 18:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Be sure to check WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Projected outline. It's a list of all outlines: including outline articles, drafts, and planned outlines.


 * Some of the philosophical subjects have drafts (or redlinks to create them) there.


 * The Transhumanist 19:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Christianity Outline
What's your opinion of the outline so far? Ive been working on it for a couple of hours now. Love it if someone could help me improve it more. Burningview (talk) 22:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you wondering how I find links so fast?


 * With Google searches like this


 * It searches just Wikipedia. Just click on it and edit it in the search box at Google, to add or exclude words or phrases from the search.


 * Notice that I excluded "category", "template", and "talk", because those page types tend to clutter up Google searches of Wikipedia.


 * The Transhumanist 22:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the help Burningview (talk) 22:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Im confused about where to put the movements in christianity such as restorationism Charismatic movement. Do you suggest putting restorationism under protestantism or making it seperate. Your doing a great job with the outline by the way. Burningview (talk) 00:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. Navigation templates are another good source for links.  Like Template:Christian History, which I harvested the links from for the history section.


 * The Charismatic Movement is already covered under the Age of Ideologies.


 * But if you are looking for Charismatic Restorationism, it redirects to British New Church Movement.


 * Movements are historical, unless they're current.


 * The Transhumanist 01:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Found another one...
I found and converted Outline of Hinduism to OOK's outline format. It still needs work.

The Transhumanist 02:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline update - Full Steam Ahead! - 06/18/2009
Several members of the WikiProject have been hard at work.

Buaidh has been building and refining the outlines on the U.S. States, the states' historical outlines, and the Historical outline of the United States. Lately, his edits have dominated the project's watchlist readout. (I think he's overdue for a barnstar or two. hint hint)

Penubag has been working on medals for all the main branches of the OOK, and has completed the OOK WikiProject's animated advert banner (see below).

Highfields has been filling in the currencies for each country on their respective outlines.

NuclearWarfare and Thehelpfulone have been busy with WP:AWB, posting banners and notices, and helping our sister project, the Index WikiProject, get established. Indexes work hand-in-hand with the outlines and are prominently linked to from the top of most of them. And the outlines, which serve as tables of contents, are only as good as the pages they link to.

Since we started integrating (linking) the OOK and its support pages into the encyclopedia and into the Wikipedia community, activity on outlines has been increasing. Though there's still much left to do.

But I digress. There are a couple more...