User talk:Butterflyangelblue

Speedy deletion nomination of Best Place at the Historic Pabst Brewery


A tag has been placed on Best Place at the Historic Pabst Brewery, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be unambiguous advertising that only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the general criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item G11, as well as the guidelines on spam.

If you can indicate why the subject of this article is not blatant advertising, you may contest the tagging. To do this, please add  on the top of Best Place at the Historic Pabst Brewery and leave a note on |the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would help make it encyclopedic, as well as adding any citations from independent reliable sources to ensure that the article will be verifiable. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Rorshacma (talk) 23:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Best Place at the Historic Pabst Brewery
You recently contested the speedy deletion of the article Best Place at the Historic Pabst Brewery but never put a reason on the talk page of this article stating why this article should not be deleted. I you do not an administrator will delete the page. Gabesta449  edits  ♦  chat  00:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I deleted the article because it was promotional in nature. The subject may, in fact, be notable (you'll need sources indicating so), but information on tours, rentals and so forth should be scrupulously avoided.  You should always keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia and write accordingly: Just the facts, stated as neutrally as possible. Some usefulmlinks: WP:NOTE, WP:CORP for notability, and WP:SPAM for things to avoid.  Also advice on your first article.   Acroterion  (talk)  00:13, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

How to get your article back
Hi Butterflyangelblue,

I saw your comment on User talk:Gabriele449 about wanting to have your article restored. It was deleted under the Speedy Deletion criteria. I've requested an admin 'userfy' it for you, which means they create a page in your user space so you can access and edit it, then if you decide it is suitable to submit to Wikipedia again, you can. See Requests for undeletion. Hope that helps. —Tom Morris (talk) 00:21, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Your userspace draft is still at User:Butterflyangelblue/Best Place at the Historic Pabst Brewery, so it should all be there. The first paragraph's more or less OK from a promotional point of view, but doesn't really indicate notability for the business. The remainder really shouldn't be included.  Let me know if you have any questions - despite the deletion, we prefer to help where we can.   Acroterion  (talk)  00:23, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Would including the history of the building help with notability? I sadly don't have any uncopyrighted images to share from those times. Just mine I took last January. (Butterflyangelblue (talk) 00:29, 11 March 2011 (UTC)) butterflyangelblue
 * The image is fine as is. Yes, history is vital, in my opinion. You'll need to provide sources for everything in the article, which given Wikipedia's difficult editing interface (a pet peeve of mine) can be a challenge. I can help  you format them. You want to provide evidence of independent coverage in major media, focusing on the specific subject, and at reasonable length (in other words, not a passing mention or shout-out). Books, newspapers, magazine features, that sort of thing.   Acroterion  (talk)  00:33, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Your own photos can be used: consider posting them on Commons. See Commons:Welcome for more information on how to put your photos up on Commons. This should probably be a good first step: even if the article doesn't remain, having photos on Commons means that if it ever gets recreated in the future, there are images ready to use. —Tom Morris (talk) 00:35, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It looks like this is part of the Pabst Brewery Complex, which already has an article (and which needs expansion). This could easily stand as a subsection of that parent article (nice work on the references, by the way). Since this seems to be an assignment, are you supposed to create a stand-alone article, or can you substantially improve an existing article? Sometimes teachers/professors don't realize how hard it can be to create a satisfactory new article.   Acroterion  (talk)  00:43, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

It has to be a brand new article. I also have to do a major edit to an existing article (feel free to comment on the Milwaukee County Historical Society edits, but please let me know if things have to be changed) and a several minor changes on other articles. Basically we learn how important it is to be accurate and thorough in regards to managing information. I can find a lot of the history of the building in the Pabst Brewing Company book pre-1940s and a couple of articles have some more recent history. Basically the big part is that it was used up until 1996 when the company shut down and left. It was reopened over a decade later after a long legal battle. I know that because I took the tour. I would have to look up court documents to accurately document the court battle because I don't think the online archives have it anymore. Best Place pops up often in BizTimes and the Journal Sentinel with fewer mentions in other local news sources. Will it be enough?

The Pabst Brewery Complex does need to be updated better. I have other photos of the Complex that I'd like to put up in the Commons in the future.

Thank you so much for all the great feedback. Should I do the changes and send you the link or can you check the copy saved under my name?? (Butterflyangelblue (talk) 03:45, 11 March 2011 (UTC))


 * Keep on editing in your userspace - I'll look in tomorrow. It would be ideal if you could come up with references from somewhere other than Milwaukee to indicate more than purely local notability - has there been coverage in the Chicago or Minneapolis papers? I assume that other students are doing this - we have a set of guidelines for teachers at WP:SUP, which helps to reduce misunderstandings and to avoid situations where students are penalized in the class for matters beyond their control. If your teacher is on WP, it would be good if I can make sure they're acquainted with the policies on class assignments.    Acroterion  (talk)  03:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I can see why someone did the complex instead of Best Place...lots of news stories on the Company, the rebuilding of the brand, and the renovations of the complex as a whole, but of the building itself it is a local phenom. However, the popularity of the building with non-Milwaukeeans is increasing. Many who love the beer wander their way to town and stumble across it. It pops up often in travel advisor websites. While it is easy to connect the new popularity with the brand to the increase in interest and traffic of the business, it is difficult to find that into writing. I think focusing on the closing of the plant and the history of the building itself is easier. First I would start with the book info on pre-1940s history. Then I would use the Company's website timeline for 1940s-1980s history. There are a lot of 1996 articles on the closing of the Milwaukee brewery in national papers. Then follow up with local news on the Best Place. This focus requires a change in name I think. Pabst Corporate Office Building/Best Place may be more appropriate. What do you think? (Butterflyangelblue (talk) 01:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC))


 * The large-scale complex is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, which provides notability and sourcing from the National Register nomination. I'm not so sure about the proposed name - I don't like slashes. I'd go with the most widespread name for most of the place's history, to avoid recentism. Your research methods sound fine.  Acroterion  (talk)  02:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)