User talk:Canadian Paul/DYKs and more

Why did you undo my revision to Aden Abdullah Osman Daar?
Seemed perfectly legitimate and compliant with WP:MOS--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 20:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Response.
Nintendo's involvement stops at "allowing this game to exist on their console". It is not a part of the Nintendo project. Nintendo spent $0.00 on advertising, publishing, production, and development on this game. Their involvement would be equal to mine if it weren't for the fact that they had to approve of its existence. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Hannah Williams (actress)
Do you have any reccomendations on how to fix "does not assert notability" for Hannah Williams (actress)? I'd have thought her stage and recording career added to the famous marriages to two of the best known people in the nation of their generation would have done so. Apparently not? Thanks for any help. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 20:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

World's Oldest People
Greetings,

In regards to THIS comment:

+ :I like this page, I think it could be a useful reference, but I agree that is heavily marred by speculation. If no citations are found soon, I plan on removing all unreferenced entries INCLUDING John Campbell Ross (a World's Oldest People is NOT sufficient).

Please bear in mind that:

A. I am the editor, moderator, and founder of "World's Oldest People", which has now existed for 5+ years. B. Yahoo used "World's Oldest People" for its main-page link for further information (for example, the Tomoji Tanabe story in June). It is also the #1 hit on Yahoo (coincidence? I think not).

Thus, I think this is a reputable source. That said, this entire 'living national longevity recordholders' is a speculative venture, and it is difficult balancing the need for citation with the reality that there often isn't much information available. No one at "world's oldest people" has asserted that John Campbell Ross is the 'oldest man' in Australia. However, I believe that once age 108 is reached, especially for males, the chance is at least 50% that such a claim is true; therefore, it should be accepted unless otherwise challenged.Ryoung122 03:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

As for others, I didn't want to ruffle feathers by removing all of those with vague citations (Christmann, Rustad, Moreira, Helldal, Rein and Gremion) but if Robert Young (or anyone else) wants to remove these entires, I certainly won't revert the edits. Ideally, each person would have a citation that flat out says that they are the country's oldest (like anyone referenced on the GRG, or the Czech cases) Canadian Paul 18:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Controversy!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Robert_Young_%28gerontologist%29

Yea or nay...

131.96.70.164 04:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For you (or anyone else) watching this space, I am aware of the debate now and am waiting to make a more informed and useful opinion (hopefully before the debate closes!) Canadian Paul 06:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

"No Original Research"?
Canadian Paul, I'm a bit surprised at the below edit:

18:23, 4 August 2007 Canadian Paul (Talk | contribs) (2,489 bytes) (Removing WP:NOR violation) (undo)

Again, this is NOT original research...the research was done and posted on a separate website. Merely referencing that is the appropriate thing to do.

Moreover, when one considers what this woman is 'famous' for...being promoted as the 'mother' of an organization. In other words, she is famous for her age. As such, what her age actually is becomes central to the article's worth. Note that the general concensus is that age 110 is the threshold where one is accorded 'supercentenarian' status. Given that it has already been claimed (by Wikipedians) that she is '110', it becomes important to let the reader know that this may not be the case. The burden of proof should be upon the claimant, and so far the evidence suggests that she is not. Note the research was done by Portuguese researcher Filipe Prista Lucas.

Also, in regards to 'sourcing': first, it should be noted that Yahoo is one of the four biggest portals in the world (along with Google, MSN, and AOL). Running a search for 'world's oldest people' turns up the below results. Note the COMPUTER...NOT ME...ranks the group #1. Like any organization, a group is what you and others make it. The group was started in 2002 mainly to be a picture gallery, but it has grown into a premier place for discussion of claims regarding the world's oldest persons.

Also try: world's oldest person, world's oldest people nursing home  more... WEB RESULTS Worlds_Oldest_People : World's Oldest People ... and photographs regarding the world's oldest people (108+). Only proven cases ... The "world's oldest person" according to Guinness World Records and the ...health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People - 17k - Cached Oldest people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... and lifespans of the world's oldest people are continually increasing due to ... World's Oldest People hosted by Yahoo! Groups. Wikinews has news related to: ... Quick Links: Official oldest living person - Official oldest living man (since 1961) - Among the oldest ever (115+) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people - 118k - Cached FORCES - THE EVIDENCE - World's Oldest--All Smokers The oldest people on Earth are all smokers. ... Calment, who was listed as the world's oldest human whose birth date could be ...www.forces.org/evidence/hamilton/other/oldest.htm - 20k - Cached Digg - World's Oldest People Dropping Like Flies World's Oldest People Dropping Like Flies " ... the world's oldest-known living ... "World's Oldest people dropping like flies" Dugg for the title. ...digg.com/world_news/World_s_Oldest_People_Dropping_Like_Flies - 55k - Cached Photographer's search for world's oldest people - Books - Entertainment ... says tracking down 'supercentenarians' - people at least 110 years old ... trotting search, Friedman needed a compass to find the world's oldest people. ...www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/01/02/1136050351746.html - 41k Science Museum | Your life-cycle | The world's oldest people Shirechiyo Izumi of Japan, was the world's oldest man when he died aged 120 ... the world, there have been unconfirmed reports of people living even longer. ...www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/exhibitions/lifecycle/29.asp - 8k - Cached World's oldest person dies at 116 - U.S. Life - MSNBC.com ... "Lizzie" Bolden, recognized as the world's oldest person, died early Monday, the ... that tracks the ages of the world's oldest people, lists Toro's date of birth as ...www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16157420 - 49k - Cached 1975 World's Oldest People Last Updated on November 30, 2002. World's Oldest People 1975. Age. Rank. Nation. Name ... Mito Umeta. Mar. 27, 1863. 111* 280* O. F. 2. Japan. Niwa ...www.grg.org/Adams/1975WOPeople.HTM - 11k - Cached NPR : Interviews: Mapping the Human Race's Journey The National Geographic Society, in partnership with IBM, ... People & Places. Interviews. Remembrances. Radio Expeditions. Health & Science. Your Health ...www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4597357 - 46k People's Daily Online -- Japan becomes world's oldest country: census A website by the People's Daily newspaper; China, business, world, science, ... third oldest country was Germany, where the elderly defined as people aged 65 ...english.people.com.cn/200607/02/eng20060702_279293.html - 23k - Cached

Also try: world's oldest person, world's oldest people nursing home  more... 12345678910Next

I also note that you are still undecided in regards to the prior post I made on your user page ('Controversy'). Let me just say this: the situation is akin to a discussion regarding which are the two best football teams (remember the year Auburn when undefeated and was left out of the title game)? We humans can argue all day long about which team was 'better' or more deserving. However, a dispassionate consideration that turns to a computer to decide pointed to LSU as the best team. Likewise, it becomes hard to argue that I am not having a major impact on the subfield of demographic gerontology when one considers that, remove my Guinness title and my GRG title and leave me to my own devices (world's oldest people webgroup) and I still rose to the top. Many persons simply don't realize yet that I am actually a quite objective and fair individual. It was not vanity but reality that led me to create my own article, as I saw a need to link to cases such as Mary Ramsey Wood, William Coates, Charlie Smith (centenarian), etc.

Please note that with or without me, I have already created articles on other notables in the field and plan to continue to do so. That does not mean 'oversatuation'...currently we have only 5 persons listed. Expanding to an appopriate number...about 10-15...seems reasonable to me. As an historian, I see the need to lay out the 'history' of things, which is often forgotten. For example, we often hear about the 'New England Centenarian Study' today, but how many realize it was founded in 1994? Sometimes we believe that institutions have been around 'forever', but a simple search will find that they are, in fact, of recent vintage. However, they may well be on their way to becoming a venerable institution.

Finally, in the Australia dispute, my Australian correspondent (Dr. John McCormack) is currently on vacation. I do realize that naming 'John Campbell Ross' as the oldest man in Australia on Wikipedia is, in fact, 'original research'...by Bart Versieck. However, if you wish to be consistent, there is quite a bit of material out there that needs help. Tonight I just discovered that someone started an article on Pierre Darcourt in Feb. 2007...the article had the wrong country (France instead of Belgium) and though based on facts, remains unsourced/ unreferenced.

Sincerely, Robert Young Ryoung122 09:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

List of Last Living Survivors by Year of Birth
Greetings,

Did you notice my addition on the TALK page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_last_living_survivors_by_year_of_birth

Yes this would be a lot of work, and we want to ensure that each entry is referenced properly. However, to stop at '1867' when I have sourced data to '1682' is not enough...expansion is needed.

Also note that this area of research is 'under construction.' For example, I just received a claim on Aug 11 for a woman in England born in 1854 and died in 1963.

If you need this information posted first, I can post it to my WOP group (it may be there already) or the GRG webpages, or both. In each case, however, the source is also listed...Dany Chambre is a Belgian doctor, for example, who has collected documentary evidence for early centenarians. Given that some 'ambitious' persons have started articles such as Pierre Darcourt (without my knowledge) I feel there is a need to 'link' all the material together. Given that pre-1966 or so, most of the 'oldest people' were less than age 110, this cutoff point is not sufficient. A historical list such as this article solves that problem to a certain degree.

Sincerely Robert YoungRyoung122 10:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought you had started the page. I notice now it was Rye1967. Never mind.Ryoung122 03:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Elizabeth Murray (born 1940) died today?
Just curious - how did you know, with such promptness, that she died today? It was only posted an hour ago at the NY Times. Do you follow her career very closely? Do you know her personally? MdArtLover 04:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Good Job
Thanks for adding references for the List of Living Supercentenarians.

The Marie Rouch case has been mentioned on my yahoo group:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/7918

It comes from French correspondents who are reliable. I do know she is alive but her age is 'not yet validated.'Ryoung122 04:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

More Deaths and Cases Coming
To be honest with you, I already know of a few more list of living supercentenarians deaths not yet reported. If you sign up to my WOP group, I try to report 'one death a day' if possible, to give that person a little respect.

I also have about 430+ validated cases waiting to be posted, although most of them are deceased. I try to report them at a manageable clip for myself and others.Ryoung122 04:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Tsuneyo Toyonaga
Paul, perhaps we could let Toyonaga 'slide' this time. Note she 'survived' the Aug 2007 deaths updates which took out Yasu Nishiyama. Also, Sept 2007 is just a month away, and now she is up to 8th overall. Ryoung122 20:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget the Yasu Nishiyama deletion was successful...so that's 1/2.Ryoung122 23:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Spinning Out of Control
Did you notice how many articles users such as 'Captain Celery' have created in the past few days? Persons like Matthew Beard or Anitica Butariu. Perhaps worse is when people like Neal 'jump the gun' and add Ellen Dart (to the 'oldest people' page) BEFORE the case is confirmed. Sigh.Ryoung122 20:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Longitivity (Age of people)
Here: http://www.olivant.fo/index.php?lg=36877

mixed referencing styles
I'm pretty sure the prohibition means not mixing Harvard citations and footnotes, for example, instead of mixing direct citations and general references. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

John Babcock
I sort of agree with Bart here. John Babcock is a Canadian 'veteran' but an American 'centenarian'. He served in Canada as a veteran; therefore he is a Canadian veteran. However, he turned 100 in the USA and have lived here 80+ years. Therefore he is an 'American' centenarian, and really shouldn't be listed doubly.Ryoung122 23:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Just one comment, I actually SUPPORTED counting Bessie Roffey as the current Canadian recordholder on Wikipedia. Mary Ray was supposed to be a 'footnote'. You're the one that changed it. I do plan to change it back. Note I already have Ms. Roffey located as 4 years old in the 1901 census and found her 1897 birth registration. I'm simply waiting on the family to send the birth certificate. While I probably have enough already, if you can get more, you get more...it's like building a case to go to trial, more evidence==more convincing. So, even though Bessie Roffey's case already has enough evidence, I'm simply holding off.

Ryoung122 00:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheers and a request
Thanks for your work on Eric Peterson, it was great! Now would you be willing to give a boo to an article I just cleaned up a bit, on Canadian curler Jenn Hanna? I'd like to tidy it enough to justify removing the tone tag; it still needs references, which I or someone will get to later. If that's not too much trouble, I really appreciate it! Anchoress 23:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Peterson is rapidly becoming one of my favourite Canadian actors, it was almost an honour to bring his Wikipedia entry up to code. As for Hanna, I have seen your list of things that need to be done to the article and would be happy to make it my first job as a member of WikiProject:Canada. I have a few of my own little projects that I want to clean up first, but I'm on a rather slow vacation at the moment, so I will find time today to do at least a few of those things on the talk page - most importantly references. Consider it added to my to-do list. Cheers, CP 23:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Too many supercentenarian permastubs
Yeah. Well, some of these pseudobiographies could do with a merge to "List of supercentenarians from country X", or similar, although people may object to that idea and consider it listcruft. I suggest you try nominating the article for deletion to see what people think.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 18:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You should nominate Gladys Swetland as a trial, since it's not current, I think. We'll have to develop a more precise set of rules for determining the notability of supercentenarians. Also, I may have said this before but I recognise you from deathlist.net.-h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you are aiming in the 'wrong' direction if trying to 'take down' a top-10er. There are plenty of low-hanging stubs out there.

Here's an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Frabboni-Saletta

Not even 111 yet, not the oldest in Italy, no sources or information given.

Or does being from Europe make her notable?Ryoung122 17:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding this comment:

As for the others, I'm not sure yet. If the Gladys Swetland AfD were to be successful, I prepared and delivered a list of similar articles that I would propose for deletion, and I specifically left out any that were state/province recordholders - although I left the possibility open for future proposed deletion. As for living people, it's a bit tougher since Edna Parker was nominated for deletion when she was #7, then she moved up to #1. Then again, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. My hope was that with the AfD. we could have a discussion and set precedents instead of just complaining back and forth on each other's talk pages. So far it seems to be somewhat working. Cheers, CP 16:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, why don't you send me the list you have already? Also, check out the comments about football (soccer) on the WP: BIO discusssion page. Simply being a player for a small nation does not make one notable. If we do 'state' for the U.S. and 'province' for Canada, what about other national sub-divisions? Minas Gerais state, Brazil?

Let's be practical here: assessing bio's is a matter of 'qualitative' analysis, not a simple mathematical calculation. I like to compare super-c's to baseball players, because baseball players amass 'notability' credits/points through cumulative statistics...3,000 hits, 500 home runs, 300 wins, etc. Maybe 200 triples, 500 steals. The problem is, what about Sandy Koufax? A lot less than 300 wins, but still a HOFer. My criteria for starting a supercentenarian article is this: would this person get elected to the 'supercentenarian hall of fame'? Why?

Note, for example: Edna Parker became the 'oldest person in Indiana' as of April 2005; the state recordholder (as of Jan 2007); the oldest person in the U.S. (as of Feb 2007); the oldest person in the world (as of Aug 2007). Like 'building a resume', she accumulated honors/titles that ensured her 'election' to the 'Supercentenarian Hall of Fame.' (Remember, of course, that Wikipedia includes not just HOF players but just about any ML player).

We all know that 'oldest person' and 'oldest man' are to be kept, so let's consider a grey-area case. Flossie Page was first the 'oldest living person in Kansas' and then she broke the state record. The first might not be enough to establish notability to some, but the second should be.

In my opinion, Gladys Swetland was already Pennsylvania's oldest person and then broke into the top 10 and top-100 all-time. However, she did not attain 'oldest living American' status. Thus I consider her case to be mid-level (NOT borderline). Not a top-level case, but still notable.

Now, what do I consider 'borderline'? How about Marcella Humphrey? She made age 112...but not by much. She doesn't rank in the top 250 all-time. But she was the oldest living person in the state at the time. So...does 'oldest living' count, or just state recordholder?

I can be annoyed with too many perma-stubs as well. But I DO believe that you should start with low-hanging fruit (like Augusto Oliveira Moreira) and then, if the article is deleted, try something higher.

Remember, we already self-censor a fairly high cutoff point...age 110. Otherwise, we'd have articles on

Oldest Belgian dies at 109 20 August 2007

BRUSSELS - Marcelle Droogmans from Brussels is now the oldest Belgian, according to geriatrist Lucien De Cock, who has been keeping track of Belgium's oldest residents for years now.

The woman who previously held this title, Irma Notteboom, died on Saturday in a nursing home in Eeklo (Oost Vlaanderen). She would have celebrated her 110th birthday on 2 November.

Droogmans, the new title holder, was born on 30 August 1898 and will turn 109 next week if all goes well.

"Marcelle Droogmans got married in 1922 and has been a widow since 1967," says De Cock. "As far as I know she has not had a profession."

The second and third oldest Belgians are also from the Brussels region. The oldest Fleming, Bernardina Van Dommelen (born on 15 March 1899) is only the fourth oldest Belgian.

By your and Neal's criteria, we'd consider this 108-year-old 'notable' but not Gladys Swetland? Political boundaries should not be the primary determination here. Belgium has just 10 million people (less than large U.S. states or Ontario). Notability should be primarily based on what made them notable...AGE...and the attendant coverage. Some persons were included (i.e. Benjamin Harrison Holcomb) due to then-extensive media coverage (once given the title of 'oldest living man', it was later superceded by others).

I think it's worth noting that articles like Asa Takii continue to be created by non-Japanese persons. One sign of notability is worldwide fame, long after death. Asa Takii's story of surviving the atomic bombing of Hiroshima is still remarkable to this day.Ryoung122 11:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Article assessment - I'll See You in Court
As requested I've assessed I'll See You in Court. I've included a summary of my thinking here.--Opark 77 10:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Article assessment - Coronation Gulf
Normally I don't bother with ratings as living in the area makes me biased but is the importance of this low? If you look at Northwest Passage, Territorial claims in the Arctic and Canadian Internal Waters, you see that at least one of the routes through the NWP uses Coronation Gulf (Image:Northwest passage.jpg). Either way I'm not going to change it. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 10:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll leave it as is. While no doubt the NWP and Canadian Internal Waters have some importance it's hard to say if Coronation Gulf really does have much importance at this time. It's more likely to do so if the NWP becomes open to more shipping. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: Incense Route GA Nomination
Thank you for the review of the article, and for taking the time to notify me about the shortcomings. I'll try to address them and notify you ASAP. With regards, Havelock the Dane  21:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've made a few changes. Take a look here. [[Image:Face-grin.svg|30px]] Havelock the Dane  01:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the note and for careful and detailed evaluation of the article and related shortcomings. I'll try to get down to it ASAP and will notify you once it's done. With Regards, Havelock the Dane  02:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Made a few edits to address concerns and described them here. Havelock the Dane  05:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Your insightful and detailed evaluation of the article has changed it much since the version on 21:03, 31 August 2007. In fact, the article has become well sourced and bulked up from a light 11,158 bytes to a healthy 16,087 bytes (06:04, 4 September 2007) thanks to your careful evaluation. Many thanks for taking the time to go into the details, Havelock the Dane  06:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Ryūzō Sejima on Recent Deaths
For Ryūzō Sejima, isn't "Ryūzō" his family name, which would place him about "Scott" in alpha-order? Cheers, CP 01:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, it is my understanding that, in Western notation, Japanese family names appear at the end of the name string. As it states here, "English publications tend to prefer the Western order when discussing contemporary individuals, especially politicians, businessmen and athletes." Regards, WWGB 04:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar
Thanks for the barnstar! I've marked the dispute resolved. Ryoung seems to have dropped the whole issue and I am inclined to let it go at that rather than stirring the pot. You've done well. &mdash;Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont)  23:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

fix
Hello, sorry for the inconvenience. I have for now blanked mu monobook, and this should take care of the cross reference. It was bloated anyway :) cheers, Moez talk 13:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Assessment
Sorry I did not get the assessment right. --Kralizec! (talk) 14:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

L'Engle
I suspect she will get a more fleshed out one later on; note that the first person on that page got a pretty full one, but died a week ago. L'Engle died just last evening, so they likely need a little more time. I hope for a good article in the next few days. --Thespian 18:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

John Babcock and Eric Peterson.
These are good articles. I rated them both B, and John low importance, and Eric mid importance as he is probably more well known these days with the popularity of Corner Gas. They could probably go for a good article nomination soon. Good luck with the John Babcock image. I included the bio template in case you hadn't seen it before, it helps to remember various facets of a bio. If possible add a section re family - wife and children. I also wonder if the way the citations stand if they would survive to good or feature article status as is. Good job! SriMesh | talk  22:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes! It would be a good idea to add Eric Peterson to WP:SK  that would be awesome, he could be listed in the List of University of Saskatchewan alumni as well I suppose also.  Perhaps with a tweak or two he can also be on the Saskatchewan Portal as a feature biography!  SriMesh |  talk  03:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)