User talk:CaveatLector/Archive 3

Raglan
And if there were a footnote, it would read "The Hero ISBN whatever, passim. ;-> We can do that in text; at least until the footnote brigade get their way,

I agree that Raglan should be mentioned at Hero; but not as the analysis of Greek hero cult, which may need to be another separate article. There's a reasonably good start at an article at FitzRoy_Somerset%2C_4th_Baron_Raglan, btw; it needn't start from scratch. Good luck. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks; it's now Greek hero cult, and seems to have grown. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Gay pride article
Why did you remove sourced material without adding to the discussion on the talk page? Could you please go into more detail about "Dubious statements" and what you mean by "better sources". I feel no reason to continue the article when I would expect further edits with no explanation. Many hours of research and writing went into that. I don't see how I am supposed to understand what your meaning is without your talking directly to your actions on the discussion page to know what you expect or what you feel is needed. The edit summery only conveys so much. A little more information would be helpful. One other question. Your placement of the expansion tag is in the middle of a section. Does that mean you feel expansion is only needed for the Roman section or the entire ancient history section? Any help you wish to give would be appreciated.--Amadscientist 02:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

About Kenneth J. Dover
Could you tell me what your thoughts are on this person and his writings. As I understand it there is some controversy with his theories or research or just possibly his use of such.--Amadscientist 05:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

An essay I've written
Hello. Since we often express similar arguments in deletion debates, I thought you might want to read an essay I've written, found at User:Eyrian/IPC. I'd be interested to hear any feedback on its talk page. --Eyrian 15:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

userification
Re Kitsune, I'll userify anything that isnt copyvio or BLP. If a closing admin forgets, just let me know. DGG (talk) 00:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Benign vs. chiding
First of all, Cav, I should apologize for a quick, visceral response to your remarks. As I noted, I had just spent more than 5 hours laboriously typing out quotations word for word from a thick volume balanced on my lap; I was tired and sore and snappish, and perhaps I did overreact a bit.

Still, if more than one editor has reacted to your innocently-intended comments as I did, you might think about bookmarking what you wrote, and coming back to look at it in a month or two when you can see your own words perhaps a little more objectively.

It's hard for me, looking at your comment now, to pin down the precise irritant that snagged my tripwire. Really, it's not so much the words themselves per se, it's how you phrased them that conveyed what felt--rightly or wrongly--like a dismissive sort of rebuke to me.

Trying to be more specific here, when you say "You want to do this, BUT it WOULD BE BETTER to do . . ." feels like you don't think my judgment is equal to yours. It sounds like what a parent, a teacher, or an employer (a boss) would say. As if I need to be corralled, controlled, and channeled into Doing the Right Thing, which I can't be trusted to know or do on my own.

Ditto for when you say "without using language that is too . . ."; again, it felt like you were implying that I could not be trusted to use appropriate language in a mainspace article, like some kind of child or new trainee.

If I were in fact a clueless newbie asking for guidance, your comment as written would have been most appropriate, I think. But of course I'm not; you can see the list of articles I've created or significantly edited over the past year by looking at my user page. And I think if you were to skim over a few of them, you would see that they are all quite acceptably written. Not perfect, but above average in most cases, if I do say so myself, and some other editors have agreed.

But of course, that brings us to one of the real flaws of Wikipedia: anonymity is a great lure--I probably wouldn't be writing and editing all these gay-related articles if I had to sign on with my real name and identifying details (this is Texas, after all, and some folks are still a bit behind the times on the whole idea of gay rights, I'm sorry to say)--but on the other hand, unlike in a brick-and-mortar enterprise where you know your co-workers by sight and have a fair idea of each one's skill level and experience, here on Wikipedia, we don't really know who we are dealing with unless we see the name often, or take the trouble to go look up what they've done and how well they've done it.

So, as I reflect upon this difficulty, it seems to me that this anonymity might be a contributing factor to the frequent incivility we find in Wikipedia. I hasten to admit I have been guilty, too, from time to time, and usually regret it in a cooler moment (it usually happens at the end of a long night of typing, when I'm feeling exhausted and irritable). Certainly I would never lash out at a co-worker face-to-face in the way it is so easy to do here. I might well think it, but I wouldn't say it. ;-)

But I often encounter other editors, new or old, who are a little too quick to change what I've worked laboriously on for hours, or to throw out little sneering, I-know-better-than-you comments and digs--without one single word of appreciation for anything good I've done. Very galling, let me tell you, when I've sat here hour after hour after hour, pouring my best efforts into crafting something the community can feel proud of--and more importantly, to me, something a general reader from the outside can solidly rely on.

So this is a systemic problem, it would seem, of the way we do wikibusiness here, and I haven't got a clue what the answer would be. Except to forgive and forget, and I do apologize if I took your comments in an unintended way.--Textorus 01:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, man, I may well call upon your expertise some time. BTW, looking at your stated credentials, I feel a bit envious; I actually toyed seriously with the idea of majoring in classical studies at one time, but by that point in college I'd been away from high-school Latin so long, I was afraid I'd never catch back up, so I chickened out.  Would have dearly loved to learn Greek, too.  Much too late to start now.  Like those piano lessons I thought I'd take "someday."  ;-)  Oh well - c'est la vie.--Textorus 02:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

IPC
Thanks for you essay, which I think you should add to one of the debates. Let me respond briefly-- In the case of Pac-man and the like, a point could be made that that the page is not really necessary, for the entire discussion of pacman is about the subject IPC-- that's the inherent locus of the subject. For influence of X, then you are right that in general more academic titles are much better--and i would be suggesting them except the same parties have nominated several such articles and seemed it would just confuse the discussion. I'm not sure about Miltonic tradition--this is really over-formal and would sound strange to most WPedians. But there's a third point: the influence of Milton on literature, music, and so on, is a perfectly sound and delmited set of topics. But there is also the influence of Milton on non-literary things. The total sum of references and allusions in even the most trivial of places indicates the impact on the world as a whole, not just the literary or creative part, for it is assumed the viewer/reader will understand. And all of these allusions are related to each other--the set of them, how they are used, why people who have never read the works still use and understand them, is a topic, and the topic is best shown by the collocation of the findable references.

I'm not a specialist in this subject in the least, but I am a bibliographer. I once collected 18th and early 19th century references to Samuel Richardson's works--in the pre internet era, by systematic searching of likely places and by following leads, working in libraries which had perhaps 90% of the possible sources. I didn't work on visual references--I do not have the knowledge of the sources and the tools. And I could never work on 20th century media references at all, for the same reason. But for everything since about 1990, this is different now, and the place to do it is Wikipedia. There is a sense in which this is OR, but for the topics WP concentrates on, it's a logical extension. Gathering is not OR; only interpretation is. Even if WP is the not the place for the work, it's the place to collect the sources,. I don't want to do this work, but I don;t want to destroy the sources for it. I am as a librarian horrified by the speed at which we are destroying access. I will still have access as an admin, and the material should certainly be transferred to another wiki--I can help with that but do not have the time to work on it or organize it-- and it is unnecessary--it could have been kept right here.

The question is how to build these up. The current way of deleting them first is so much the wrong way to go, that it is about this that I am fighting. I have things both at WP and in the RW I should be doing rather than defending or rewriting these, things I could do much better than this. So will you help preserve some of it? Will you, for example, help with the Eiffel Tower article, and categorize the ones you know. And then look for the sources for them individually? will you perhaps look at Irvine for a book discussing it to add to the references for the article? On a longer scale, will you rewrite at least the academic sections for some of the ones based on classical topics--your own field? Will you -- even -- be prepared to say at some of the AfDs, "keep, and edit." ? DGG (talk) 02:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * thanks for the response. I agree that a project is the way to go--but I am a little to busy arguing to organise! if you want to suggest one, I'll certainly support and help, and a project supported by people of different views is the best way to proceed--projects started by people with a declared single view on the matter do not usually get far. No need to userify Eiffel Tower yet, it still has a few days to run--let's just work on it where it is. That way people can see the improvements as it goes along. But if you want to do something radical, then sure, do it there, and it can be combined. Thanks for the suggestions. DGG (talk) 03:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Kitsune in popular culture
I was not the closing admin, but I noticed your request to take Kitsune in popular culture into your user space, so I've moved it to User:CaveatLector/Kitsune in popular culture. Cool Hand Luke 17:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hermes in popular culture
The article was not userfied because of the overwhelming consensus to delete it outright. Given some of the concerns raised, userfication wouldn't have fixed anything. --Core desat 22:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I have stated on my talk page my willingness to userify anything that is not copyvio or libel or otherwise BLP. I don't want to contradict my colleague above, so if you will send me an email address or activate your email, i will email you a copy. DGG (talk) 07:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

namespace violation
I have moved WP:GAYCABAL to Gay Cabal. -- RHaworth 12:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. I didn't know that was a violation. CaveatLector Talk Contrib 14:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Nice work on Gay Cabal, by the way. I was impressed that there was already an essay so perfectly fitted to the point you were making :-)  bikeable (talk) 15:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Dissociative identity disorder
As someone who has been active on the talk pages of this article, this is a request to please have a look at Talk:Dissociative_identity_disorder/ArticleSandbox. This sandbox represents an attempt to format the article as per the medical template and to retain an NPOV stance. After a period of discussion in the main article talk page and subsequent editing on the sandbox article, I would hope to copy the sandbox version over to the actual article. --CloudSurfer 19:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

NYU in popular culture
This article was recently deleted and I am submitting it for deletion review. As I see you supported keeping Yale in popular culture - an article almost exactly the same as NYU in popular culture - please support me in restoring this page. As the creator of the page I plan on bringing it to the level of Wikipedia in culture should it be restored. Please comment on the process here: Deletion_review/Log/2007_August_14. Your support is appreciated. Thanks. -- Noetic Sage 23:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I was unaware of the canvassing policy before you let me know! I will definitely refrain from doing so in the future. The purpose of my message was to garner attention but I agree it should have been done in a more neutral manner. Thanks for letting me know. -- Noetic Sage 00:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

LGBT WikiProject Newsletter
Delivered on 16:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC).

How I keep going
I completely sympathize with your frustration, CaveatLector. And as you can see from the edit counter's summary of my activity (scroll down to the green bars), I cut back my Wikipedia activity substantially from April to July. That break helped considerably. When I came back, I trimmed a lot of dross off my watchlist and focused on a single goal: getting Fun Home to FA status. I've just achieved that goal, and it feels good.

Looking back on the way I was feeling earlier in the summer, and the way I'm feeling now, the main difference is that instead of letting myself get ground down by fighting POV-pushers, rabid deletionists and defenders of the bureaucracy, I'm balancing that reactive activity with creative activity. That helps me remember what it is I like about Wikipedia: the ability to find information, present it in a coherent fashion and share it with the entire world. Yes, the process can be tiresome, and maintainance of good content can be exhausting (I can't wait for the "stable versions" to be implemented!), but it can also be rewarding when you get it right.

It's also good to remember that although the POV-pushers, bigots and trolls take up a lot of time and energy, they don't define the Wikipedia community. The key values of Wikipedia-the-community are still those of a civilized and civil society, and that's not something you can say for a lot of communities on the Internet. Yes, the open nature of Wikipedia makes it difficult to ensure that all the participants share those values — but they are still the values of the community as a whole, and that's no small thing.

My advice to you is that you take a wikibreak for as long as you need to recharge your batteries, and when you feel ready come back with a project in mind. At least, that worked for me. It may be hard to let go of articles which you're used to defending, but I've found that when you step back others will step forward. After all, that's the point of a wiki — none of us is irreplaceable. And that can be liberating.

Whatever you do, I wish you happiness and good fortune. You're a good egg, C.L. — don't let this place make you feel scrambled. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia degradation
Hi, I too have experienced this. I see it in various ways. On one hand, it is definitely a degradation of the principles which governed this project a couple of years back (I think I will soon enter my fourth year of editing here). It seems to be happening with greater frequency that groups of like-minded people impose their own moral imperative on what should be a factual debate. On another hand, it was only a matter of time until something like that happened. Frankly, I have been expecting it. A project that started out with a handful of intellectual idealists has now been discovered by less evolved individuals who use numbers to overcome reason. It reminds me of what Thurgood Marshall said upon leaving the Supreme Court: Decisions were being taken not by strength of reason but by force of numbers, and he wanted none of it.

So, I sympathize. On the other hand, I prefer to take a long term view of it, namely that people can and do learn, and that over time reason will prevail. You do have to be willing to lose some battles, even when you are right, and not take it too much to heart. I personally find it painful when I draw the attention of the community of people interested in LGBT matters to this kind of conflict, and no one gives a damn. But what can you expect of a group led by a person who criticizes edits on the basis of them not "serving the cause"? Screw the "cause," the only cause we have here is accuracy and intellectual integrity. So that is how matters stand, but in closing let me just point out that if all reasonable people pack it in, the field will be left to the bigots and the gang bangers, and that would be too bad. Haiduc 23:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

LGBT WikiProject Newsletter
Delivered on 17:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC).

LGBT WikiProject Newsletter
{| class="navbox collapsible collapsed" style="text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;" ! style="background-color: #CC9966; text-align: center;" |The LGBT studies WikiProject Newsletter  {| The LGBT studies WikiProject Newsletter! Issue XI - November 1, 2007
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Hey, Peeps, it's that time of the month again (no not that time &mdash; get your mind out of the gutter): time for another monthly edition of the LGBT Project's Love Boat newsletter from your cruise director Miss Julie. So much has been happening this month and I just can't wait to tell you all about it!!!

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Alice and her harasser
Let's start with some good news: Alice and the project lost the bothersome sock puppet who had been disrupting many articles we monitor, and now most of us can edit in relative peace. Congratulations, Alice, for being able to come out of semi-retirement. Benjiboi, on the other hand, has gained an anonymous IP stalker who seems to be more Catholic than the Pope and who has a hard-on for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. We seem to have a sort of Yin and Yang thing going on here, which helps both to keep us in balance and on our toes.

Harry Potter and his homosexual teacher
Albus Dumbledore got outed this month, and was immediately adopted by our project. The international brouhaha surrounding this disclosure reached all the way to Wikiland, and his article was briefly locked due to homophobic vandalism (as well as well meaning editors who just couldn't believe that that nice man could possibly be gay). This is a wonderful article to add to your watchlist, and will surely give you hours of reverting fun on cold winter days.

"My Fellow Americans"
On a more serious note, Fireplace has suggested a new article series about LGBT rights in the United States, state by state. This ambitious topic will surely require many editors and a lot of research, but has the potential to add further prestige to our already prestigious project.

Same name, same sexuality: a riddle for the ages
Francis Bacon (not the new gay one, but the old gay one ... though they're actually both dead, now that I think about it) has also aroused passions here on Wikipedia, with editors opposing his sexuality being disclosed in his biography. The always helpful Haiduc has thoughtfully provided any number of sources, but it is slow going getting his point across. Anyone want to lend a hand?

Beat writer arouses Irish guy
And speaking of passions, Jack Kerouac has inflamed the senses once again with editors, including administrator Irishguy, mounting a spirited defense to keep him as heterosexual as possible for Wikipedia purposes. Why? I don't know. Perhaps some of you can drop by the talk page and ask your questions there. I feel certain a stimulating debate will ensue that will be enjoyed by all.

Love those Texas Longhorns
Did you know that one of our Featured articles, Lawrence v. Texas, lost its shiny gold star? That was a shocker. It has been suggested that we turn our attention to it in an effort to restore it to its former glory. I took a peek, and it does need our help badly. For our American editors, it would seem almost a civic duty to edit it (not that I'm hinting....).

Point and Counterpoint
Though it was far too intellectual a debate for a mere cruise director like myself to take part in, Intersexuality was certainly a hot topic a week or two ago. The thrust of the debate was over inclusion in our project. Lots of good editors had lots of good opinions. For those too lazy to check out the discussion, we decided to leave it out for now.

Drudgery on offer
Peer review is, as always, short staffed and seemingly unloved. Wouldn't you feel better about yourself and the world in general if you took a few minutes to read one of the listed articles and offer some helpful advice? I know I'd feel better if you did.
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"My Fellow Americans" redux
The article LGBT movements in the United States certainly raised eyebrows last week, especially when it was discovered that copyrighted content had been added to our article. Tragedy was averted at the last minute, though, when the original hosts of the article where the material had been pilfered agreed to make it free to everyone. Our thanks to them, whoever they are. Busy Bee that I am, I haven't had time to read it, but I'm sure it's sensational.

This month's Wiki stars
Lesbian pulp fiction (a genre close to my heart, I must confess) writer Ann Bannon has decided to spice up the featured articles candidates list this month. Why not drop by and make your opinion heard? Joining her in this lofty aspiration are the articles But I'm a Cheerleader and Conversion therapy. I'm sure their main editors would welcome any comments (well, helpful ones, anyway) on the talk pages or the FAC discussions. And lest we forget, the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people: Sd-Si became a Featured list!! Rah rah, siskumbah! Go, team, GO!!!!

And the Oscar goes to...
Not content to run for Best Actress, plucky Bannon won a Best supporting actress Oscar... whoops, I meant to say Ann is also getting more than her share of womanly attention on the Good Article list. Joining her on this exalted plane are Freddy Mercury, Waylon Smithers and Lance Bass. Good articles indeed, and the last one mentioned just goes to show that one needn't admire the subject of an article to appreciate the effort put into making him worthwhile reading. What on earth Britney ever saw in him I'll never know. Truly a riddle cloaked in an enigma and wrapped around a puzzle.

Fresh faces to brighten our pages
Though I may not be the first, let me extend a warm, LGBT Love Boat welcome to the 12 new members who joined us in October: Jliberty, JockCub360, ChristopherEdwards, Desiderius82, Zlrussell, Kelsied, BeardedWoof, Mujerado, Tyrfing, Fabgurrl, Redl@nds597198, and decafdyke! Whatever you choose to do here, I feel sure that your contributions will enhance our project to no end. And if they don't...well, let's just say that I'm not shy.

Leather and lace
On a personal note, your already overworked cruise director is being cyberly whipped almost daily by Nemissimo, who desperately wants to get the German BDSM translation copy edited and used as a replacement for the current one. It's such a ... err, stimulating topic that I am sure many of you will want to join the copy editing fun. Jump right in, folks! It's so lonely copy editing it all by my lonesome!

Late breaking news
A little birdie just whispered in my ear that our noble collaboration project was delisted from the Community Portal due to inactivity. When asked how this scandalous turn of events could have occurred, the answer I received was "we suck at stuff like that". Well. In the first place, I disagree that sucking should be considered a negative, but to each his or her own. In the second place, I have full confidence that we can and will collaborate with other projects in the future. So let's not view this as a setback (even though it is), but rather a challenge to improve (and good Lord, I sound almost Wikipedian!).

Champagne dreams and caviar kisses
Lastly, the holidays are rapidly approaching. Our American cousins are currently getting ready to slaughter masses of poultry in an effort to show their gratitude and generally peaceful demeanor, and those of the Canadian persuasion, trendsetters that they are, celebrated a bit early this year. I'm sure all us foreigners will join together in wishing them all a very happy Thanksgiving on their respective holidays, both already celebrated and forthcoming... though I would hope somebody would enlighten me as to why they don't celebrate it on the same day. I was awake all last night trying to figure that one out. - In the spirit of this peculiarly North American holiday, let me take a moment to thank all of our editors for their contributions to this project. It's people like you who make people like me...well, a "people person"! May all your Wiki days be bright, and may your Love Boat never turn into a Poseidon.
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Kisses,

Miss Julie To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please let us know here. If you have any news or any announcements to be broadcast, do let Dev920 know. Delivered on 12:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC).
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LGBT WikiProject Newsletter
Delivered on 20:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC). SatyrBot 20:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

just in case you check here, you may wish to again discuss Bisexual erasure
While assuming nothing but good faith on the part of the editor who merged the articles, due to the history of as well as lively and vigorous discussion about this article, I have restored the article and substituted instead two merger discussion boxes, one on Bisexual erasure and one on Biphobia.

I look forward to discussing and working on this and other subjects with you in the future. Respectfully CyntWorkStuff (talk) 02:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for comment on Category Redirect template
Because you are a member of WikiProject Categories, your input is invited on some proposed changes to the design of the Category redirect template. Please feel free to view the proposals and comment on the template talk page. --Russ (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Notice of Inactivity
In trying to deliver the LGBT Project newsletter, SatyrBot detected a period of three months of inactivity from this account. You have been placed in our "Inactive Members" section. If this has been done in error, please let my bot owner know and change your status in he project. Thanks! SatyrBot (talk) 23:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)