User talk:Cavila/Archive3

Ressad
Thank you. You may have come to think I wasted your time, but it takes me a while to get around to things. I will eventually be using Jaski for Dáire Cerbba, whom I have recently cleaned up in preparation. DinDraithou (talk) 02:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not at all. These things take time and probably should if we want to do things properly. And I'm certainly no stranger to the fact there's always enough important work lying about to distract us (me included). Cavila (talk) 11:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

[Precious Girls Club]
I was wondering what you thought of this article and if you could tell me how to post it.

Here We Go Again (Precious Girls Club Edition )

This was a limited addition CD By pureNRG. Features songs such as

1. "Any Which Way" 2. "Like" 3. "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" 4. "Call on Jesus" 5. "Girls Can Change The World" 6. "Get Up" 7. "BFF" 8. "Inside Out" 9. "That's What Friends Are For" 10. "Are You Ready?" 11. "More"

And an additional song titled 'Precious Girls Club' it was their theme song.

And With a code for the online world of http://www.preciousgirlsclub.com/ which has since closed down.

Never mind i figured it out. Thanks ,

Grace603 (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if you still need an opinion, but I've posted a message on your behalf at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums. Cavila (talk) 11:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Mainchín of Limerick
I've only been able to Google preview a short passage of Mac Eoin, but it looks like he's arguing for a later appearance also and accepting the O'Brien claim? I was just shocked by ODNB because I have not myself seen anything post-19th century recognizing it. The Church itself seems to agree with Begley, as does Spellissy. I would love to see Mac Eoin's argument and am open. If's there's a chance it really was the Dál Cais or O'Briens then they deserve more discussion. Really it's not all that important... except to the O'Donovans, who got forced out of the region and remained a family of little accomplishment for so long. DinDraithou (talk) 19:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you've missed my reply at Talk:Mainchín of Limerick but the ODNB article by Elva Johnston doesn't claim much actually. There's nothing controversial about the statement that the saint was at some point linked to the Dál Cais, which is hardly surprising given their political dominance in later times. Things are phrased in such a laconic fashion that one might mistake her words for a case for Dalcassian origins. But she does argue that Mainchín's status as a Dál Cais saint was the product of political conflict (with the Ui Fidgenti). More precision would have been welcome no doubt, but I don't think she is merely replicating older theories (note also the use of Mac Creiche's Life). Cavila (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I did miss your reply! I'm so sorry! I have way too many pages watchlisted and did not catch it. One does get the sense from some authors that the Uí Fidgenti [Uí Chairpre] were perhaps the primary historical antagonists and had a lot of influence on the formation of the Dál Cais, having overrun their cousins on the other side of the Shannon. The author of CGG is aware of this and devotes a surprisingly honest passage to it. Then in the Life of Saint Senan from the Book of Lismore (I will get around to adding it) the Uí Fidgenti king Mac Tail claims all the islands, Senan "depriving" him only of Inis Cathaig. Of course the great O'Donovan problem is that they seem to have been the product of the spearhead pushing east... into territory that the archaeologists say later becomes Norse. There's more to add to Donnubán mac Cathail. According to the author of CGG this went right down to Limerick itself, supporting the author of Saint Senan. So that gives us several "layers" of people south and east of Limerick in the 10th century and probably before. Probably Donnubán had some Déisi ancestry too. The Dál Cais of course have some Uí Fidgenti in them. Finally this takes me back to Dun Cuirc, which you might remember I thought was evidence of a non-Uí Fidgenti origin for the O'Donovans. Later I checked and found that the passage in CGG puts the Uí Chairpre occupying territory all the way out in Tipperary, where the fort probably was, so no more problem. It's kind of amazing to still sometimes read that the Uí Fidgenti never got past the Maigue. No wonder that in the Book of Rights their two kings manage to receive between them the most gifts of all. It really was a respectably aggressive regional kingdom and it's a shame it is not better known popularly.
 * I am not familiar with Mac Creiche but there is an article I think in Ériu 20 or 21 which discusses his relationship with Mainchín. I have no subscription or easy access to ODNB. DinDraithou (talk) 17:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Michael of Zahumlje
Hi Cavila! I was thinking to nominate Michael of Zahumlje for GA, as there isn't much more to say about him. Since you were largely involved from the 'move proposal' that I made in August, I was thinking that you would like to participate in the process. Anyway, your comments and suggestions will be appreciated. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 19:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah well, it's been a nice exercise, if a bit outside my usual scope. I would have thought that GAs are generally longer, but you can always check with someone like User:Ealdgyth (a relentlessly prolific writer of both GAs and FAs) to see whether it would make a suitable candidate for a GA nomination. I can't make any commitments at present, but you can always co-nom me. One comment before I sign off, the lead is commonly used to summarise the remainder of the article. Anything which gets cited in the article proper does not need to be cited in the lead as well. Good luck! Cavila (talk) 10:27, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Kebeta (talk) 10:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a note - 'Michael of Zahumlje' is a GA. Thanks for all you help with the article. I presume that you are a native English speaker, so if you want to give a final touch to the article, you are welcome. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

King of Mumhain
Talk:Ivar of Limerick. Sorry to keep bothering you, Cavila! But you're the only one I know who could have much more I don't know about this episode in Munster history. Also I give a little review of a new book! See also User talk:Finnrind for my intentions. DinDraithou (talk)

Ælfric Cild
Hello! Your submission of Ælfric Cild at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Simon Burchell (talk) 23:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

For future reference:
When you leave an edit summary of "dfdfgldkfgldkfgldkfgldkfgldkfgldkflgdkgf", I'm not prepared to assume good faith or even bother to look at the edit. Half Shadow  19:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't make fun of my spasms. Cavila (talk) 19:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't care about your spasms; if you're having them, stay off the site until they go away. Half  Shadow
 * Mmm, your attempt at humour is laudable, but you might want to work on it a bit. For a moment, I thought you were serious and someone else might make mistake it for an embittered snarl after a long, weary day of vandal fighting, without a proper mop to fight the buggers off. Pause a minute and drink a cup of tea (one without a storm in it). Cavila (talk) 20:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Erik
I (eventually) noticed your discussion with DD at Talk:Ivar of Limerick. While I don't have many insights to bring regarding old-norse / scandinavian language sources on this, I do have a printout of "Erik Bloodaxe - axed?" that Dr. Downham kindly sent me a while ago - if I find a working scanner somewhere I'll send it to you. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2010 (UTC)


 * That would be great! There's no need to rush as I'm swamped these next two months, but I'd definitely use it to expand and tidy up the article. Cavila (talk) 10:12, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Ælfric Cild
Cbl62 (talk) 12:02, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Hen Ogledd
Hey Cavila, if you have a moment, can you take a look at Hen Ogledd? A new reiteration of some familiar arguments. And this time, with no sources, just to keep it interesting.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * And some new 'arguments' as well. I'm afraid I won't be around much, but it looks like things are back to normal since you posted this message. If there ever was a barnstar for superhuman patience and endurance, you'd definitely deserve one! Incidentally, Tim Clarkson has a new book out on the shelves entitled The Men of the North: the Britons of southern Scotland (Birlinn, 2010). I haven't seen it or read any comments about it but his work as a historian and archaeologist could be very useful here. Cavila (talk) 11:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Edmund King
Hi, do you have access to Edmund King's "The origins of the Wake family: The early history of the barony of Bourne in Lincolnshire" you used to add content in Hereward the Wake in early 2009 ? I'm searching it to write an article on the Wac/Wake family on the french wiki. Regards, PurpleHz (talk) 21:06, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for responding this late. Real-life business and all that. Northamptonshire Past and Present is not available from many libraries, but you could contact Edmund King in person or the editorial board of the magazine. Sometimes they're more than happy to send you a copy if you intend to use such work for the benefit of the general public. You may also like to know, if you didn't already, that David Roffe has reproduced his article on "Hereward 'the Wake' and the Barony of Bourne" online at his own website: . Kind regards, Cavila (talk) 11:26, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your answer, I had completly missed it! Regards, PurpleHz (talk) 19:40, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Tis the season...

 * Thanks, Ealdgyth. I hope you and your loved ones, not excluding your horses, had a lovely Christmas as well. That's a wonderful image, no less. Cavila (talk) 09:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Hiberno-Latin
Thanks for creating the template! Better than I could've done. Srnec (talk) 01:05, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's fairly close to the example you posted on Fergananim's talk page though, apart from the extra categories. Please feel free to expand, as it's still far from exhaustive. Cavila (talk) 19:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for the work you've done on Hiberno-Latin literature, Cavila. I simply was'nt in good enough form to do it properly myself. I hope to be able to add a few more articles to this. It amazes me just how many pre-modern Irish people can be found if you look in all the right places. I am also trying to get each century in the to a minimum of one hundred each, as well as adding any and all strays to their respective county. The eras pre-1800 seem very badly served in each county, so I hope to bring them up to speed. Fergananim (talk) 08:29, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

ODNB-template
Hi, good to see you back in action. Since I'm watchlisting both List of saints of Ireland‎ and List of Anglo-Saxon saints my watchlist makes it look like you and Deacon are in some kind of race :) I made a template at Nowiki for easy citation of ODNB-bios, no:Mal:Kilde_ODNB, you probably don't need to read Norwegian to figure how it works. Are there any similar templates here - if not, do you think it would be OK to adapt it for use here or is specialised citation-templates discouraged? Finn Rindahl (talk) 21:33, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My wiki past is haunting me now! There are issues with that saints list I didn't get round to dealing with (or I simply had no taste for it), such as saints having articles under the guise of some obscure or long obsolete name. Just making the connection takes up some time. It does not help much either when some of those saints are only of local importance (ever heard of Saint Crunathan, which probably should be at Cruithnechan anyway?). I also remember having created quite a few templates for specific, frequently cited sources (at a time when planning ahead seemed like a good idea): see now Category:Medieval studies source templates. For the use of ODNB articles, I've just found Template:ODNBref and a few related templates, but they are incomplete, so creating a new Template:ODNB or Template:Cite ODNB would be a step forward. Cheers, Cavila (talk) 21:59, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll see if I don't make one one of these days then. Lots of useful stuff in that category :) Finn Rindahl (talk) 19:33, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Laud Synchronisms
Now, spaming your user talk the minute you return isn't very polite perhaps, but your the only one around here with "the world of early Irish genealogical texts" on your to-do-list... Working on the early historic Irish high-kings, I come across a lot of unsourced references to "the Laud Synchronisms", example Áed_Uaridnach. These seem to have been added by user:Timelinefrog who isn't active anymore. Are these likely to be referring to K. Meyer, ed., ‘The Laud genealogies and tribal histories’, Zeitschrift für Celtische Philologie, 8 (1910–12), 291–338 (which Charles-Edwards lists as one of his sources for the ODNB), or is it this stuff? Any connection to William Laud? I'm asking mainly out of curiousity, as I'll be omitting those references in the Norwegian articles - to close to Original Research since neither Byrne or Charles-Edwards (as far as I could tell) are quoting those reign-lengths. Finn Rindahl (talk) 19:33, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, actually, "semi-retired" would be a more fitting description than "back" I'm afraid. Whenever I can muster the time and energy I may be able to jump in and work on things, but it would be difficult to fully commit myself to WP. ... There's an important 15th-century manuscript in the Bodleian library which is usually referred to as Laud Misc. 610 or Laud 610 - indeed one of the valuable items from the collection of William Laud. It is a composite manuscript (meaning in this case that two manuscripts have been bound together) and as the abbreviation 'Misc.' (for miscellany) implies contains all sorts of material (genealogical tracts, short narratives, etc.) such as the texts you've mentioned there. The 'Laud synchronisms' published in ZCP 9 are distinct from the 'Laud genealogies and tribal histories' (ZCP 8) in not providing much in the way of genealogy, but listing kings and abbots and such according to a time-frame. You'll find tables in which the careers of Irish kings are synchronised with those of biblical contemporaries and others. The tracts are all available from CELT and archive.org and you may be interested in Mac Neill's discussion of the synchronisms, and the difficulties involved in using them (we're talking synthetic history here), in ZCP 10: p. 81ff. See archive.org. Cheers, Cavila (talk) 21:15, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for explaining this, I was getting confused googling around... I do hope the emphasis will be on "semi", not "retired". Hope to see you around whenever you have the time and inclination. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 21:38, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Please revert or discuss your move of Crunathan
I would like you to please either revert your undiscussed move of the Saint Crunathan article or disucss the reasons for it first of all. Why should the Irish name take priority over the English varient on the English Wikipedia? The article lede did start: "Saint Crunathan (Irish: Chruithneacháin)". Crunathan is attested to as the English varient of the name and unless you can prove that "Cruithnechán" is the most commonly used name for this particular saint in the English language then you should revert back to the English spelling.

Also we have an agreed Ireland Manual of Style that states we should always use County Londonderry not Derry or Co.

Lastly in the Kilcronaghan article, the translation is into English, so the English name should be used. It is also sourced by the Church of Ireland as "St. Crunathan" so please don't alter sourced information. The Irish form is in the Irish part of the derive. Mabuska (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * In all the modern scholarly works I could lay my hands on he is referred to as Cruithnechán, e.g. Charles-Edwards, Early Christian Ireland, p. 291; Ó Cróinín, Early medieval Ireland; or see the ODNB for Columba by none other than Máire Herbert, etc. The variant "Crunathan" is usually attested in older works. I guess you're familiar with the contents of WP:RS and WP:Article title ("Wikipedia determines the ..."), so I'm not going to summarise them for you. Regards, Cavila (talk) 12:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way, thanks for pointing me to the MoS on the County Derry naming dispute, though a link would have been nice. Cavila (talk) 12:51, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * On reliable sources is the ODNG? . Some would argue its not. Anyways if several modern scholarly works cite him as "Cruithnechán" then fair enough, however common-name usage in the English language still applies. Once you swim past all the hits for "Cairpre Cruithnechán" and "Lilias Cruithnechán", who appear as people altogether different you get only 20 something hits, whereas Cronaghan and Crunathan have more. Cruithnechan without the fada beats them all even after you ignore all the hits that are essentially copies or each other in content - so it would appear the common-name in the English language. I could safely bet some of those scholary works you quoted are using the proper Irish version for the reason that its the proper Irish version.
 * So common-name wise Cruithnechan appears to be more appropriate. The proper Irish version (as oppossed to the common English version) would be stated obviously as it was before. Mabuska (talk) 13:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also don't take my manual of style as been angry or abrasive etc., its just the way i type. I'm blunt which can be misinterpreted easily, but i don't mean to sound like i've any malice or misgivings. Mabuska (talk) 13:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the ODNB as in The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (http://www.oxforddnb.com) published in 2004 and to some extent updated/revised after that date (the online version). I don't know about other entries, but those for medieval figures at least were written by some of the leading scholars in the field. A favourable review can be found in Anglo-Saxon England (vol. 33 or thereabout, I forget). Google hits are problematic for a variety of reasons I won't go into right now, but contrary to popular belief, it's not a reliable index of usage in the best secondary sources - not even Google Scholar. That's why nothing beats looking at the (secondary) sources yourself, which I did in this case. Incidentally, I just found two other sources, one by T. M. Charles-Edwards, the other by Karen Jankulak Alfred P. Smyth, both of which use "Cruithnechán", again with the fada. Cavila (talk) 13:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem, Mabuska, you're grand. Cavila (talk) 13:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I know there are issues with using Google search, however it can be used if search entries are done right. WP:COMMONNAME for the exact policy on Google in regards to names. I can't remember the specific policy link to do with names in other languages, but a foreign name would need to be in common-use in another language to be deemed so - personally i still think its debatable if its common-use, though it definately seems common in academic works.
 * Anyways, i suppose a simple expansion on alternative used names can be added to the intro, with any wikilinks to the article in other articles depending on the source being used.
 * On Oxford, i have their Companion to Irish History, 2007 edition, and even it isn't the most reliable in some parts even in regards to medieval Ireland - though i think its more down to the specific editor of an entry rather than the thing as a whole. Mabuska (talk) 14:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Out of curiousity could you please add the sources to some of the statements made in the article? For example "According to Manus O'Donell, he was the person who baptised Columba at Temple-Douglas (Telach Dubglaise), in the parish of Conwall, County Donegal.[2][4]" - Manus O'Donell isn't attested to in both sources i've cited for this statement so a source needs added into it, preferably after Manus O'Donell.
 * I noticed two sources at the bottom that aren't attributed to any statements, and it would help if they were for clarification. I tend to be a bit gestapo-ish about statements and sources attributed to them. Mabuska (talk) 14:20, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As for you first comment, I'll have a proper look tonight (in all probability I cited the wrong page). As for the two sources found under "References", they are both cited in the article, so I'm not sure what you mean. Cavila (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC) Addendum: it looks like you simply overlooked Manus O'Donnell (written as "Donellus") in Reeves. Cavila (talk) 12:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh wait i see now what you did, you have the references for those two sources in the notes but stated the sources again afterwards fully expanded. No problem on the second point then. Mabuska (talk) 22:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this move. @Mabuska, Crunathan will probably make the saint slightly more recognizable to people from the relevant locality, but most people who find him through scholarship rather than local knowledge or antiquarian studies will only recognize Cruithnechán. I've found this to be an issue for different saints across Britain and Ireland (Eunan versus Adomnan, Alphege versus Alfheah, Mungo versus Kentigern, and so on). @Cavila, though the masses in these localities have no interest in early medieval Celtic or Anglo-Saxon saints, they often have contact with the names through place-names, landmarks and school names. @both, in almost all cases where this is an issue the scholarly sources invariably choose the 'authentic' spelling; so articles that maintain the archaic local form can never become any good without departing almost entirely from the sources upon which they must be based. Upward conformity with the most reliable sources, and indeed the more authentic name, is in any case inheritenly desirable and should be preferenced where the issue is otherwise evenly weighted. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 22:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, the article has been revised somewhat, leaving the reference system that you've used intact. Thanks Deacon for giving some background to the (thorny) issue of naming saints on Wikipedia. Cavila (talk) 12:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Great job on expanding the article and fully sourcing each statement, it has really improved the article beyond what i started it with. On that Máel Cobo mac Crundmaíl redirect, i proposed its deletion on the fact it was one of User:Threewolves many redirects to the now merged article on the Tully's - but good catch that he actually has an article where he is mentioned. Mabuska (talk) 13:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Out of curiousity - since we are using modern spellings of saints, should we not also use modern spellings of places? For example the modern Irish for Temple Douglas is given as "Tulach Dhúghlaise" rather than "Telach Dubglaise". Likewise for Kilmacrenan - "Cill Mhic Réanáin" as oppossed to the archaic "Cell mac nErnáin"? In fact the Kilmacrenan Irish in brackets along with that of Manus O'Donnell aren't actually required in the article as they aren't of relevance to the actual article whereas Kilcronaghans is - they are of relevance to their own articles where they are detailed and can be considered verbose in the Cruithnecháin article. It'd be like giving the Irish for County Donegal and the parish of Conwall after them - its unrequired in these contexts. Mabuska (talk) 13:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland FYI Cavila, best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 12:21, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh well, no point in continuing the thread (which is long since archived), but thanks for letting me know anyway. Cavila (talk) 20:01, 22 April 2011 (UTC)