User talk:Cbl62/Archive 2015

Southern All-Americans
The rarity of southern players on Walter Camp's All-America first teams led to an apparent cliche, or conundrum, with the claim of "first Southern player chosen by Walter Camp." Strupper seems to get that title if I have reviewed the lists presented here correctly. Quite a few sportswriters who had surely watched football and read about it in 1917, seemed the first to put this label on Bum Day in 1918. Hm. Just a journalism cliche, "puffing" of a kind? Or just because Strupper was the second halfback chosen while Day the first center? Or is there an error on the 1917 page? Or something else? I'd appreciate if you shed light on my darkness; hope not too silly a question. Cake (talk) 21:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI, the Walter Camp Football Foundation does not list a 1917 All-America Team, but includes the following notation: "All-America Team not selected because of World War I." (See current WCFF All-America Teams webpage here.)  Our 1917 College Football All-America Team article lists Walter Camp All-Americans, as published in Collier's.  The 2014 NCAA Records Book has an asterisk next to the 1917 entry for Walter Camp, with a footnoted annotation: "In 1917, Walter Camp selected an all-Service, All-America team composed of military personnel."  The website that I have been using to view old Collier's articles does not include issues from before 1926.  (See here.)  This clearly bears some scrutiny because the NCAA believes that the 1917 Walter Camp selections were different from other years, and the WCFF doesn't even acknowledge them.  If, as I suspect, Camp chose only players for the various Army and Navy service teams, such as the Great Lakes Naval Station football team, the distinction may have been lost on some newspapers in reporting what the selected players' colleges were vs. what service team they were playing for in 1917.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Then I found this December 13, 1917 article from the Oregon Daily Journal here, which lists an Auburn player in addition to Strupper. Interesting.  And you will note the phrasing of the linked article: "Camp . . . has indicated his choice of an All-American Team this year will be made from the following players . . . ."  The list looks preliminary, as it includes multiple players at all positions (except guard).  Note the odd use of the future tense.  I have yet to find a subsequent article through Google News Archive or Newspapers.com that explains this.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * And then we discovered the footnoted article from the Fort Wayne Sentinel used to source the 1917 "Walter Camp" selections in the Wikipedia article does nothing of the kind. Walter Camp is mentioned elsewhere on page 8, but the All-America team listed is the newspaper's, not Camp's.  (See here.)  Ouch.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Found it: consistent with the WCFF's non-listing of a 1917 team and the NCAA's 1917 notation in its record book, Collier's published a list of "All-America Service Teams" by Walter Camp in its January 5, 1918 issue. (See p. 32 here.)  As usual, no Southerners were included among Camp's first team.  I still can't explain what the Oregon Daily Journal was referencing in the linked article from December 13, 1917 above.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * So Camp didn't select an All America team, rather selected an All Service team, but then also published a team in Collier's Weekly reported by a Fort Wayne newspaper? I can't find the reference in the Fort Wayne paper. In fact I see only a paper published that week for the 28th not the 29th, and I didn't see any mention of football. What you said made a lot of sense, but then I haven't a clue what the wikipedia article is referencing. Page 47 in your Collier's Weekly seems to have some southerns as honorable mention, but Guyon is mentioned above Strupper. Cake (talk) 01:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Cake, the Fort Wayne Sentinel is a head-fake/red herring that should never have been included as a reference. The All-America team listed in the Fort Wayne newspapers is not Walter Camp's 1917 college team; it's the newspaper's own 1917 All-America team.  The words "Walter Camp" do not appear in the article, but they do appear elsewhere on the same page.  Someone who added the footnote/citation to the 1917 College Football All-America Team article was clearly using a key word search that included "Walter Camp" and "All-America" and did not look to confirm that it was actually Camp's 1917 college list, which it wasn't.
 * Camp did not pick a college football All-America team for 1917; he did pick "All-America Service Teams" for 1917 (see January 5, 1918 issue of Collier's linked above). This is confirmed by the notations in the NCAA Records Book and by the Walter Camp Football Foundation's lack of a 1917 All-America team.  The WCFF did not exist in 1917, but it does include all of the Walter Camp All-America teams prior to the formation of the WCFF as part of its lineage, and WCFF specifically states there was no 1917 team because of World War I (see WCFF webpage linked above).
 * All of which brings us back to Strupper and Bum Day; Day still appears to be the first-ever first-team All-American selected by Walter Camp (1918). As for the present Wikipedia article "1917 College Football All-America Team," it clearly needs to be critically reviewed and edited to strip out the inaccurate "Walter Camp" selections for 1917, and all other selections need to be confirmed using Newspapers.com, Google News Archive, and other available online searches.  I think we also need to discuss what secondary selectors we include in our All-America team articles.  In my opinion, we should not be including selections from the Fort Wayne Sentinel and the like.  There were dozens of such minor selectors every year, most of which are of no historical importance.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see even the newspaper's own All America team nor a newspaper for the date given, but that is interesting. I did not know such errors were left on All-America team pages. Will try to at least post a few if any proper teams on 1917s All-Americans talk page.Cake (talk) 02:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The Fort Wayne Sentinel article is cited, but not linked in the 1917 Wikipedia article; try this. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Consider this one Search for Strupper's page, will say he was the first southern All-American.Cake (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * MC, what's at issue is who was the first-ever Southerner who was a first-team All-American selected by Walter Camp. Camp had previous second and third-team selections, and undoubtedly there were a handful of Southerners picked as first-teamers before 1918 by selectors other than Camp.  It's unclear from his GSHOF bio who selected Strupper as an All-American in 1917, but we know it wasn't Camp because Camp did not select a team in 1917.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:26, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes I know; was just to show I hope I had reason to inquire. The claim to fame is being the first selected by Walter Camp, yet one finds claims like that for Strupper along with it being said here (wrongly, I get it) that Camp picked Strupper. It looks like Day; McMillin, Roberts, Weaver; Fincher; and Bomar get to be called Camp's southerners. Cake (talk) 19:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Is Red Weaver wearing a codpiece in that photo?? Now, that's a physique.  LOL  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I am presently tied up on non-WP matters, but I noticed this discussion. If the footnote referencing the WC team for 1917 is in error, it was probably my error.  I created most of the early AA team articles.  If it is in error, it should be fixed.  Give me a few days, and I'll check it out.  If there is a separate WC All-Service team, it should be included and identified as such.  As for limiting selectors, I favor inclusion with clear sourcing.  (My preferred practice is to identify in bold the selectors recognized by the NCAA as official for consensus purposes.)  For many years, Camp's selections are the only "official" selections, but they were highly controversial at the time and sidely regarded as biased in favor of the Ivy League and Eastern schools.  Camp rarely attended games outside a 100-mile radius of New Haven, did not see most non-Eastern players in action, while led to angry calls in the Western press that his selections ought not to be regarded as true "All-American" teams.  Inclusion of other selectors, particularly Western and Southern selectors (even though not used in the NCAA consensus determinations), helps present a broader and more balanced spectrum of historical points of view. More information is better. Cbl62 (talk) 15:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The old AA pages are a long-term project that I started years ago. There are still a number of missing selectors that I was unable to track down. I have now ordered a copy of the ESPN College Football Encyclopedia which should be delivered within a couple weeks.  Once I get that, I can also go back and start filling in some of the older holes. Cbl62 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Talk:1917_College_Football_All-America_Team Let me know how it looks when you get a chance. Thanks for the help dirtlawyer. Cake (talk) 12:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * A few newspapers mention Reynolds Tichenor as the first Southern player ever selected for an All-American by Walter Camp; I guess for a third-team or something, but see no mention of him anywhere. Might wish to double check to see if he ever got any mention. Cake (talk) 02:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * This claims W. E. Metzger was the third ever southern player to get Camp's mention. Owsley Manier gets one of the two slots left. Any idea who was the other? Not sure I've one coming to mind. Cake (talk) 05:31, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Your input is requested . . ..
I'd like to get your opinion on this revised infobox template:. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * When you have a few minutes, please take a look. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:41, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Germany Schulz at Southwestern Normal in 1909
Cbl, I recently created Template:Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs football coach navbox based on the 2014 SWOSU Football Fact Book. The head coach for 1909 is listed as "Adolph Schulz" on page 48. The timing makes sense for this to be Germany Schulz. I see that's already a GA-rated article and there's no mention of him at Southwestern Oklahoma State or Southwestern Normal, as it was known then. If you have a chance, can you take a look at your sources and see if you can confirm Schulz at Southwestern Normal in 1909? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 08:02, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll see what I can find. Cbl62 (talk) 08:08, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

2005 All-Big Ten Conference football team
Looks like you've copied over the 2004 team there. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, I created 2005 independently, but inadvertently used a 2004 source. Doh! Fixing it now. Cbl62 (talk) 08:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Rabbis of Wilshire Boulevard Temple
Hello. I have started working on separate biographies of the rabbis of Wilshire Boulevard Temple. Is this something you would be interested in expanding, since you created the page? See User:Zigzig20s/Abram Wolf Edelman (the first rabbis of LA apparently, but still in userspace because I don't have enough info), Sigmund Hecht, and I am working on User:Zigzig20s/Harvey J. Fields. It would be fantastic to find their pictures/portraits somewhere in the public domain as well. Please reply on my talkpage. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 00:32, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Afd for 73 Harvard Crimson

 * I've nominated 1873 Harvard Crimson football team for deletion here: Articles_for_deletion/1873_Harvard_Crimson_football_team. Your input is requested; Been brushing up on early football and all the Harvard-McGill games were in 74. If memory serves, there are many of the older individual seasons confused for others and with multiple seasons in one. Cake (talk) 19:34, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

AfD: Andenne Bears
Cbl, care to reconsider your !vote @ Articles for deletion/Andenne Bears? I think a merge and redirect is a better option than an outright delete. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Since the article under AfD simply repeats content already in the parent article on the league, and does not appear to add anything not already present in the parent article, I don't really see what is accomplished by a "merge". repCbl62 (talk) 22:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * "what is accomplished by a 'merge'"? Unanimity of !votes and redirects for the Andenne Bears and other teams in the league to the league article.  Right now, this is headed for a split vote and a possible "no consensus" outcome.  With a merge and redirect, the non-notable team pages will be deleted for the price of redirects to the league page.  That's a pretty good compromise.  Read the exchange between Brigade Prion and myself.  FYI, the nominator has already changed his stated preference at my request.  Let's Make a Deal, and get these eight team articles deleted (see the other nominated team articles from the same league).  Remember: redirects are cheap!  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:53, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * FYI, this was "merged" out of existence, Cbl. Please note that there are 6 or 7 other articles about teams from the same Belgian amateur league that are pending at AfD -- they're listed at the American football AfD category.  Cheers.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Color graphics for Infobox college football player
Cbl, here's a sneak peek at how the revamped infobox layout and design is going: Template:Infobox college football player/testcases. Nothing has been finalized regarding parameters to be added or deleted, and I still plan to hold a mini-RfC on the template talk page to give all active WP:CFB members their say-so in determining. That said, what do you think of the colors, graphics, and layout and design? In particular, how do you like the "college varsity stripe" graphics? Personally, I think it looks sharp -- instead of the graphically primitive color bars we previously had. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * CBl, follow-up in your area of expertise: defunct team mascot names (e.g., Stanford Indians). When you have some time, can you check this list @ Module:College color to make sure it includes all of the old mascot teams of which you are aware?  With Frietjes improvements to the color module, we will be able to insert the era-correct nickname into the revamped infobox template, and it will display the correct team and mascot name and colors, but the link will redirect to the team article under the current team and mascot name.  This is really good stuff.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:35, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Query
Is Tom Huiskens notable per GNG? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:39, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The article was created in 2007 and incorrectly asserted that Huiskens played in the CFL. I did a few minutes of cleanup/expansion last week to whip it into somewhat better shape.  (My effort was part of a larger, ongoing project to ensure that the existing 769 articles on UM football players, at a minimum, rise above the "embarrassment" level.)  As for WP:GNG, I haven't done a full analysis.  He won no All-America of All-Big Ten honors, but the feature story from Mlive.com (the Booth newspaper group in Michigan) does represent significant coverage in a consortium of mainstream, credible, statewide media outlets.  Also, the 1967 AP article does deal with him in some detail as he was considered maybe "the best college football prospect in Michigan."  He also gets some coverage in this history of the CFL. Injury cut his playing career short, and, unfortunately, articles from the Detroit Free Press, The Detroit News, The Ann Arbor News, etc. from the 1960s and 1970s aren't available on-line (not even for a fee), and so a search of microfiche or hard copy newspapers would be needed to determine how much coverage he got. As you know, I successfully nominated a number of UM player articles for deletion in the past year.  Huiskens is probably a borderline case, but I'd be reluctant to consider an AfD for Huiskens without more research.  Cbl62 (talk) 20:06, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Cbl, I was working my way through the 900+ articles that presently utilize Infobox college football player, doing some basic clean-up work on the infobox and lead. The overwhelming majority of the articles that use Infobox CFB player are not current jocks, but historical players who are CFHOF members, consensus All-Americans, or other major award winners who did not play pro ball.  In that crowd, Huiskens does stand out as a "borderline case" -- which is why I asked.  I am keeping a list of players to discuss later; so far, it's a pretty short list.  Some of the weakest GNG cases are current players who ultimately are deemed notable by playing a few games in the NFL.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok. Happy to discuss any candidates if you would like. Cbl62 (talk) 20:45, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Related, but different topic: how do you think the player's high school should be presented in Infobox CFB player? The pipe-linked display that follows the "Ann Arbor (MI) Central Catholic" pattern has not worn well with time since it was introduced in Infobox NFL player several years ago. I was never in love with it, and the use of U.S. postal code abbreviations and the creation of what is, in effect, an artificial name by pasting the city name onto the abbreviated school name is problematic. I'm thinking we should use a pipe-linked short-form of the high school name, just as we do for the universities, minus the city name and state postal code. In something like 95% of all cases, it will be linked for those high schools that have articles allowing the reader to instantly satisfy his curiosity, and the town where the high school is located should also be identified in the text. What say you? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:16, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * In the informal RFC you posted at the beginning of the year, I cast my vote for completely eliminating the "high school" parameter from the infobox. If the consensus ends up being to keep the parameter, I'd need to think a bit more on how best to display. Cbl62 (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Please give it some thought. I don't think we're going to get rid of it that easily, and it remains one of the issues to be resolved.  When I re-open the RfC, I would like to resolve all formatting issues, so we can write definitive template instructions with comprehensive formatting examples.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Randy Logan
Allen3 talk 08:33, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Paul Seal
Allen3 talk 16:19, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

CFHOF link
Hey, Cbl. I have no idea how the !vote of WP:CFB members on the CFHOF link will turn out. I know Jweiss and at least several others prefer no direct links in the CFB player infobox, and would like to see the CFHOF bio link moved to the external links section, along with a limited number of other featured links. That said, once Bagumba's sideshow merge discussion on the WP:CFB talk page is over, I expect to start the long-delayed RfC regarding the final parameters to be added/removed. Personally, I am indifferent whether we include the CFHOF bio link in the infobox or EL section; my biggest objection to including the link in the box, to the extent I have one, is that the existing electric yellow color bar is a graphically hideous design element. If we're going to keep it, we need to upgrade the link's graphics and eliminate the jarring electric yellow color. As a brainstorming idea, perhaps we should consider something similar to what is used for the Baseball Hall of Fame in the MLB player box -- a dark blue bar with a star or two on either side of the link. Anyway, please think about alternatives, because I would like to have two or three concrete ideas for the RfC so people understand what they are voting for. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 07:46, 3 May 2015 (UTC)


 * DL, the MLB HOF banner evokes the Baseball HOF logo (http://baseballhall.org/sites/default/files/logo_8.png). If we're looking for a new design for the CFBHOF banner, I think we should pick something that evokes the CFBHOF logo (http://www.cfbhall.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/logo.png). Jweiss11 (talk) 13:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The CFHOF log that you linked incorporates the Chick-fil-a logo ... corporate advertising ... hideous. Cbl62 (talk) 14:38, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting we evoke anything regarding Chick-fil-a, which uses a red and white logo for its main signage and marketing. I'm saying it may make sense to use the blue and gold of the CFBHOF logo, like how the red and blue fill colors and white stars from the Baseball HOF logo are used for the MLB HOF infobox banner. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:13, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * But the CFHOF logo you linked has a Chick-fil-a logo (not red and white) embedded into the CFHOF logo. Presumably, Chick-fil-a paid big bucks to have its logo embedded. Cbl62 (talk) 16:20, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but I don't believe the Chick-fil-a logo has anything to do with the blue and gold of the greater CFBHOF logo. The Rose Bowl logo includes corporate sponsorship, but that has nothing to do with the core red and green in the logo's main graphic, which is evoked in Template:Rose Bowl navbox. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:34, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I am all in favor of using a tasteful graphic device for CFHOF membership, either in the infobox or elsewhere, and I am open to just about anything that isn't an electric yellow color bar. That said, please recognize that the CFHOF logo, with or without the Chik-fil-A element, is copyrighted, or trademarked, or both, and, as such, is a non-free image subject to restricted use on WikiPedia.  It would be one thing to use the non-free-image logo in the infobox for the HOF article, but transcluding it into 1,000 to 2,000 infoboxes for HOF members is going to set off a deletion war with Wikipedia non-free-image police.  We caught shit for 18 uses of the Gator head logo; I can only imagine what they would say about 1,000 or more uses of the CFHOF logo.  Sorry to be a wet blanket.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:26, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Fellas, I'm not talking about using the logo. I'm talking about using the colors of the logo like we do in various team, conference, and bowl navboxes, and like the MLB infobox does with the colors of Baseball HOF logo.  Is that clear? Jweiss11 (talk) 21:03, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Please see here for an example of what Template:Infobox college coach would look like with this sort of scheme: User:Jweiss11/Bo_Schembechler. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay. I can see that.  Tough to object to neutral dark blue.  No graphic devices other than the dark blue color bar?  Also, can you reduce this to a single line of text -- e.g., "College Football Hall of Fame (1985)" or something similar?  Does this mean you are waiving your previous objection to the infobox direct link?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:27, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * DL, refresh the page by going to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jweiss11/Bo_Schembechler?action=purge. The external link is gone and there is a gray border. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's graphically refined and relatively subdued in terms of colors -- should not conflict with new graphics of the CFB player box. I assume you would have no objection to using the same CFHOF graphics in both the college coach and CFB player boxes?  Also, can you get it down to a single line of text?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

The same graphics in both infoboxes makes a lot of sense, so no objection there. I think the only way to get it down to one line of text is to reduce the font size. Given the relative importance of an HOF induction to any other accolade, I'm not sure two lines is really a problem. Keep in mind that the baseball infobox uses four lines for the HOF info. I think voting info is notable only in the case of the Baseball HOF, but even without that it would be three lines. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * To reduce to a single line I suppose we could edit the text to "College Football Hall of Fame, 1993" or "College Football Hall of Fame (1993)". Jweiss11 (talk) 22:09, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Or a spaced ndash. Or a teeny-tiny, tacky little football.  j/k about that.  I'd like revisit the graphics for Infbox coach, too, at some point this summer, after I've crossed off Infobox college football player and a new common infobox for all college sports teams.  The player and team boxes will use the same colors and varsity stripe graphics, etc., but I can't use colors for the coaches because many if not most were associated with multiple teams during their careers, so we're not going there.  I think we can figure out how to use black and a grey screen for the varsity stripes for the coaches, though, so it won't be a radical change -- really just upgrading the section headers within the coaches box.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:23, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * IMHO, CFHOF voting info = serious overkill for an infobox. Less is often more.  Most of these CFHOF bios don't even reference the HOF vote in the main body text.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:23, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the CFHOF voting info. I only brought up voting to clarify the comparison to the baseball infobox.  Let's never speak of it again! Jweiss11 (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Template:Infobox college football player
Cbl, I think in cases like Ray Baer, we should be using Template:Infobox college football player, not Template:Infobox gridiron football person. Right, ?
 * We should, JW, but several of the template parameter names will change, as soon as Bagumba's "merge" discussion closes, to make them conform with the corresponding parameter names and order of Infobox NFL player. That's why I haven't been changing more of the existing uses myself.  Rather than revisit the same articles multiple times, I would like to insert nice, clean new templates, with everything correct the first time, and then focus on getting the correct input data, in the correct format, rather than trying to fix the parameter names and input data piecemeal.  After that "merge" discussion closes, say at the weekend, I'll open the RfC to vote on the final parameters to be added/deleted (e.g., CFHOF direct link, etc.); as soon as that's done, we will know the final form of the new template.  There was an orderly process planned for this -- determining the parameters first, then doing the new graphics design package, then presenting the package for a final vote, but outside interference turned that planned orderly process on its head and forced us to do things out of sequence.  This could have, and should have, been done in one-quarter to one-third of the time.  So, for the time being, the new revised template for Infobox college football player is not ready for prime time, and I'm certainly not pushing it until it is.  Patience is a virtue, or so I'm told.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:25, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I wish that there was a single master infobox that could be used for all football players/coaches. There ought to be a way. It would make life a lot simpler. When starting a new player article, it's not always clear whether the player went on to be a pro player or coach.  (Some sources indicate that Baer was an assistant coach at U. Louisville for a while.)  This leaves uncertainty as to what infobox to use.  In such cases, I sometimes choose the gridiron player box which seems to have greater flexibility. Cbl62 (talk) 14:44, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Which is fine for now. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:49, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Melinda Copp and Michigan Wolverines swimming and diving
Hey, Cbl. I just came across some of your handiwork from the 2012 Olympic year: Melinda Copp. Having previously worked through the American and Aussie Olympic swimmers, I'm now plodding through the Canadians A through Z, updating them to the current standardized version of Template:Infobox swimmer, and imposing a measure of uniform formatting on the 1400+ American, Aussie, Canadian and Brit Olympic swimmers for whom we have articles. There are 55 articles in Category:Michigan Wolverines swimmers, most of whom were Olympic standouts. While it includes its share of one-hit wonders, the category also includes some of the greatest Olympic athletes the Wolverines ever produced, and most of these articles really could use some in-depth work. Sources for Olympic results are readily available, and we have Wikipedia articles that fill in the swimming medal history for the Commonwealth Games, Pan American Games and Pan Pacific Championships -- it would be nice if we could build all of them into solid C or B-class articles with every factual statement footnoted, etc. Any chance you would be interested in helping? After I finish updating the Canadian infoboxes, I'm moving on to do the same thing for the 260+ British Olympic swimmers. . . it may be months before I circle back to the Woleverine swimmers again, but I'm certainly willing to help if someone else has the time now. Please let me know if you're interested and need a time-out from CFB for a week or so. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:34, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I worked a bit on UM swimmers in the past as part of an effort to build out articles on the University of Michigan Athletic Hall of Honor, but don't really have the time or desire to put a lot more effort into that area presently. Cbl62 (talk) 21:46, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * FYI: . Finally.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:15, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I saw that. Thanks. Cbl62 (talk) 22:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Matt Elliott (American football)
Hello! Your submission of Matt Elliott (American football) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! —Bagumba (talk) 08:56, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Matt Elliott (American football)
Harrias talk 16:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Çanakkale 1915
More is possible, but Çanakkale 1915 is now 2161 characters (358 words). .  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 08:22, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * And now... not only is it bigger, but it is also now out of AFD. .  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 14:37, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Sam Sword
Hello! Your submission of Sam Sword at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! —Bagumba (talk) 06:44, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Cbl62, it's been over three weeks without a response to the review. Please take action right away; otherwise, the nomination is likely to be closed in the next few days. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * There was a reply to your June 1 post that same day; please respond. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Joe Cocozzo
PanydThe muffin is not subtle 15:11, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Michigan Yearbook Photos Copyright Status
Hi Cbl62,

I see that you have previously uploaded several photos from the University of Michigan yearbook that are tagged as "PD-US-not renewed" or "PD-Pre1978" or both (which seems rather contradictory). Anyway, I see that there are many useful photos that you have uploaded under these tags, and my hope would be that there are many other college yearbooks out there from which photos could be used in this manner. It would be a major boon to college football and basketball on Wikipedia. Before searching yearbooks post 1922 for photos to add, however, I want to be certain that your methodology is correct in claiming them as public domain. I wanted to ask you about them first as the uploader, and then likely the community at large. There are several questions I have in assessing the copyright status of these photos.


 * Are you certain that the copyright of the yearbook itself includes the copyright of the photos? Most yearbooks are a compilation. Could the copyright belong to a photography studio that took the photos? Were team photos even first published in the yearbook or could they have been published in a media guide or game program that was copyrighted? In specific examples, such as Bo Schembechler.png, A specific photo credit was given on |Page 273 of the yearbook. Do we know with 100% certainty that the person listed there is not the copyright holder. If the answers to all of those questions are 100% certain, are the photos free enough to be called PD on Wiki projects, who seem to have strict definitions on the subject.


 * Even if these photos are certain to fall under the copyright of the yearbook, is your methodology sound for determining that copyright was not renewed? Take for example 1923 Michigan Wolverines football team.jpg. The Stanford database you mention only seems to cover Class A books, and I would think that an annual publication such as a yearbook would not fall under the same classification that Stanford has cataloged. Second, The copyright office records prior to 1978 have not been fully digitized, so searching the online collection for renewals would not necessarily mean that no renewal occurred. Can we really be 100% certain that no copyright renewal occurred for these publications based on an online search.

Again, I sincerely hope that these photos are public domain, and this methodology can be extrapolated to make Wikipedia a much better resource, but I want to be 100% sure before adding anything post-1923 myself. SCMatt33 (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I haven't forgotten your question. I need to find a block of time when I can tackle it.  Will try to get back to you soon. Cbl62 (talk) 00:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1995 All-Big Ten Conference football team
Harrias talk 12:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Please comment pertaining to new school articles and categories
I began an important issue that will affect the college football, basketball, and baseball projects. You are a regular editor within any or all of these WikiProjects and your input is requested. Please weigh in at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball. Thank you! Jrcla2 (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of 1991 All-Big Ten Conference football team
Hello! Your submission of 1991 All-Big Ten Conference football team at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! —Bagumba (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It's been nearly three weeks, and issues remain. Please respond there right away. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Mike Teeter
PanydThe muffin is not subtle 13:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Tommy Hendricks
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1992 All-Big Ten Conference football team
Harrias talk 07:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1984 All-Big Ten Conference football team
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:32, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1987 All-Big Ten Conference football team
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of 1921 Michigan Wolverines football team
Hello! Your submission of 1921 Michigan Wolverines football team at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 04:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for your comments here. I've made changes based on your thoughts. Best. --Epeefleche (talk) 20:42, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Might you perhaps take a second look when you have a spare moment, now that I've sought to address your comments? Thanks. --Epeefleche (talk) 06:03, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello. Perhaps you are not seeing my messages? After you commented, I responded 20 minutes later (8 days ago). But I haven't heard back. Perhaps you are very busy? --Epeefleche (talk) 04:50, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1921 Michigan Wolverines football team
Materialscientist (talk) 04:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Explain to a user?
Hey Cbl, I asked Dirtlawyer about the Northern Colorado Bears page move, and you took care of the problem before he responded. Could you please explain to User:Linnix about the problems with the move? Because it looks like he doesn't edit much, it would probably help to explain it. Thanks! Corkythe  hornetfan  23:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Sam Sword
Gatoclass (talk) 14:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Incomplete DYK nomination
Hello! Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/1941 Michigan Wolverines football team at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; see step 3 of the nomination procedure. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with db-g7, or ask a DYK admin. Thank you. DYKHousekeepingBot (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 26 June
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 * On the 1944 Michigan Wolverines football team page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=668825800 your edit] caused a broken reference name (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F668825800%7C1944 Michigan Wolverines football team%5D%5D Ask for help])

DYK for 1991 All-Big Ten Conference football team
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:06, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 2 July
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 * On the 1945 Michigan Wolverines football team page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=669631805 your edit] caused a broken reference name (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F669631805%7C1945 Michigan Wolverines football team%5D%5D Ask for help])

Dallas Marvil
Cbl62, take a look a the recent edit to Dallas Marvil by Michiganpastor. Appears to be a good-faith edit, but it contradicts your sources. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1941 Michigan Wolverines football team
Gatoclass (talk) 22:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

1887 Navy Midshipmen football team
Cbl: Yes, I'm being pointy, and, yes, I know I'm being pointy. And my dismay is not really directed at you; it's really directed at the bad/incomplete advice under which the article creator proceeded to cut and paste 100+ no-prose, no-independent-source stubs. Now, we have one properly stubbed Navy football season (ignoring, of course, that it is supported by significant coverage in a single independent reliable source -- I assume you're in the process of curing this), and 100+ no-independent-source, no-prose stubbiest of stubs, all of which remain subject to AfD nomination, most of which are quite likely to remain in their present condition. . . well, forever. Not to mention we now have one or more editors who think no-independent-source, no-prose stubs for single-season articles is an acceptable practice.

You and I both know well the minimum standards for stand-alone articles, and while most of these will probably survive a critical notability/suitability analysis, it will only be after some gnashing of teeth at AfD, the deletion of some, and a lot of wasted editor time that could have been spent doing something productive. WikiProject College Football should have an example of a stand-alone, single-season CFB article that satisfies both the minimum standards of the WikiProject, GNG and other applicable guidelines, so we can all point to it, and say, "If you want to create one, here's what it needs to look like." At a bare minimum, that would include significant coverage of the season in two independent, reliable sources, specifically excluding College Football Data Warehouse (and similar stats sites), team media guides, SID press releases, college newspapers, and other publications of the college and affiliated organizations like the NCAA and college sports conferences. With your comments and participation, I would even volunteer to create that example article in project-space, so we can avoid another situation such as this.

Sorry to be such a grumpy, old bastard. You deserve better. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:01, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * "old"???? Now, you're really being pointy! ;) Cbl62 (talk) 17:05, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * As for your substantive proposal, I agree that significant coverage in multiple sources is the GNG standard, but the sources don't have to be presented before an article can be created. For example, I created 1892 Harvard Crimson football team knowing that significant coverage exists in multiple sources, but for starting purposes I considered it sufficient to have citations to reliable sources such as the Harvard site and CFDW.  Hopefully, another editor will pick up the baton and expand further, but I don't see how or why an article such as 1892 Harvard should be a candidate for deletion when a search of The New York Times archives of newspapers.com turns up a plethora of coverage for the topic. Stubs are not where we end up, but sometimes they serve a useful purpose in getting things started. See WP:ARTN: "Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article. . . . if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability." Cbl62 (talk) 17:14, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * True, as far as your Harvard example goes, but we both know that the Harvard College football team was one of the most high-profile CFB teams in the country in 1892. And, yes, I'm well aware of the quoted WP:N passage, but the burden is on the article creator and "keep" proponents to demonstrate notability when an article is sent to AfD.  I guarantee if I challenged all 100+ of the new Navy season articles at AfD, I could pick off at least a half dozen of them for failure to satisfy GNG, and lot more of them would be close calls.  And that is going to be true for most Division I programs, especially in the early years of the sport.  The outsize coverage of Michigan is an exception, not the rule, because Michigan was one of the Big Boys of the sport almost from the git-go.  Heck, I could make serious GNG deletion arguments for most pre-1900 Alabama and Auburn teams, and many, many other current top-tier teams.  That said, the larger point is no-prose stubs are subject to deletion, and no-prose articles have no business being split from existing articles.  Too often newbie article creators create 100 stubs, or 32 of 100 seasons, and walk away from them, leaving someone else to clean up the mess . . . or just as likely, for the mess to continue indefinitely.  In this case, the all-in-one, 125-seasons-of-Navy-football article was already a Big Mess, so there is nothing better to which to revert.


 * All of that said, there should be a WP:CFB minimum standard for creating a single-season article, and it should not be "well, sources probably exist." If that's the argument, then the season is better treated as part of some aggregation.  While we're quoting GNG, let's not forget "significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included.  A more in-depth discussion might conclude that the topic actually should not have a stand-alone article[.]"  If there is nothing more than season schedule and an introductory sentence or two of text, the subject arguably falls into the latter class until someone is willing to take the time to properly build out a stand-alone article.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Having dug into this a bit further, and developed a bit further the 1887, 1888, 1889, 1890, 1910, and 1911 articles, I am convinced that all the Navy single-season articles satisfy WP:GNG. Because of the prominence and national reach of the Naval Academy, Navy football games routinely got coverage in newspapers across the country. I really don't think that any of them would be "close calls" when it comes to GNG.  On the other hand, I was the first to speak up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football expressing serious concern about the creation of multiple no text article, and I agree that was not the best way to proceed. But now that the articles have been created, I am convinced they all satisfy GNG and believe the best course is to clean them up rather than prodding or trying to "pick off" a few of them at AfD. Cbl62 (talk) 00:07, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Cbl, this has never been about "deleting" the stragglers, and I did not expect to delete these articles. This is about the advisability of the WikiProject encouraging someone to create over 100 no-prose stublets when there was a perfectly viable alternative of splitting them by decades until someone was motivated to create more substantive single-season articles that might have included an introduction and at least enough main body text to recount each season's highlights.  And as is typical, once this AfD is over, and you and I return to our normal editing priorities, WP:CFB will be left with 90 or more no-prose stublets that will sit for years until Texas Historian or another motivated Navy fan has the time to build out something that resembles a proper stub for some of them.  The 1887 article, as it existed before you started chewing on it, should not set the minimum standard for a stand-alone single-season CFB article; as a WikiProject, we should not sanction, encourage nor tolerate stand-alone articles that consist of nothing more substantive than a season schedule.  Most of the existing CFB season articles in similar condition are orphans that are little more than magnets for vandalism, and there are a surprisingly very large number of them in that have been in that condition for five, six, seven or more years.  I'm happy to review the state of the season articles for the major Division I programs with you . . . .  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:22, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

"...most of which are quite likely to remain in their present condition . . . well, forever." Well, that's proving to be a faithless and false prediction. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:34, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

All-Western or All-Big Ten/Region v. Conference affiliation
You may notice the recent edit I made to 1914 All-Big Ten Conference football team (or is it 9) contra 1914 All-Western football team. It seems I have a similar problem with All-Southerns contra All-SIAA or All-South Atlantics. Not to mention independents. Any tips on addressing this issue?Cake (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The same applies in the west with All-Pacific teams and All-Pacific Coast Conference teams. As I built those ones out, I revised the name of the article depending on whether the teams were limited to conference players.  It gets messy some years. Cbl62 (talk) 00:57, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Jug Girard
— Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:01, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 19 July
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 * On the 1921 Michigan Agricultural Aggies football team page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=672161437 your edit] caused a broken reference name (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F672161437%7C1921 Michigan Agricultural Aggies football team%5D%5D Ask for help])

Disambiguation link notification for July 21
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited 1918 Michigan Agricultural Aggies football team, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Blue Devils (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject. It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 08:54, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I have noticed that you have been creating a lot of disambiguation links, such as the link to 1980 college football season in 1980 USC Trojans football team. Please STOP creating links to disambiguation pages, and fix the ones you have created. I believe you have created links to all of these pages:


 * 1980 college football season: 1 links


 * 1981 college football season: 1 links


 * 1982 college football season: 1 links


 * 1983 college football season: 1 links


 * 1984 college football season: 1 links


 * 1986 college football season: 1 links


 * 1987 college football season: 1 links


 * 1988 college football season: 1 links


 * 1990 college football season: 1 links


 * 1991 college football season: 1 links


 * 1992 college football season: 1 links

−
 * 1998 college football season: 1 links


 * 1999 college football season: 1 links


 * 2000 college football season: 1 links


 * Please fix these links BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE on Wikipedia. Cheers! bd2412  T 14:32, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


 * You're in luck. It seems User:Jweiss11 has fixed all of these for you. If I were you, I'd thank him. Cheers! bd2412  T 02:45, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Was not aware that these disambiguation pages had been created last December. As for your suggestion, I am always grateful to Jweiss11 for his help! Cheers. Cbl62 (talk) 05:05, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I concede, it is not obvious that these titles would be ambiguous. I have an add-on that lights up disambiguation links in yellow highlight (User:BD2412/monobook.js/User:BD2412/monobook.css), which I find to be an excellent aid. bd2412  T 15:13, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1968 Michigan Wolverines football team
Thanks for your help with the project Victuallers (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of 1931 Michigan Wolverines football team
Hello! Your submission of 1931 Michigan Wolverines football team at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! —Bagumba (talk) 04:08, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Cbl62, it's been two weeks since you were notified of these issues. Action is needed soon if you don't wish the nomination to be closed as abandoned. Thank you for your attention. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The nomination is a month old today, and still needs a QPQ, among other outstanding issues. You've been quite busy elsewhere; time to give this nomination its due. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:07, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1944 Michigan Wolverines football team
Materialscientist (talk) 05:52, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1945 Michigan Wolverines football team
Materialscientist (talk) 05:52, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

DYK for 1946 Michigan Wolverines football team
Materialscientist (talk) 05:52, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

1974 Army Cadets football team
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Your opinion is requested
Here: Template talk:CFB Schedule Entry. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Style of Yost's play
Hi there cbl. Our research interests cross paths with McGugin and Yost. I've read both of them placed great emphasis on the punting game. One wonders which other elements of Yost's style of play, say as opposed to Stagg or Rockne, might help me better understand what a disciple took from him. Were there schemes Yost was known to utilize? Also, it is a long O rhyming with post yes; and not a soft O rhyming with cost? Cake (talk) 13:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I see he ran a short punt system (should've known eh), which looks a lot like a single-wing/shotgun. Would be nice to find an article somewhere on how those differ. The '21 Vandy picture is a really nice shot of the short-punt, but hard to tell whether the image of the 1922 team is a short-punt or some other formation. Cake (talk) 17:38, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The article starting on page 244 in Harper's Weekly here had some good bits on playing in the punt formation. Cake (talk) 18:59, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Cake. I've been meaning to get back to you on this.  I have a lot of books on Michigan football history and Yost, but I moved last month (after 22 years in the same house), and my stuff is in quite a state of disarray.  When I find my Yost stuff, I'll get back with you. Cbl62 (talk) 00:45, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * And, yes, it's a long o, as in coast, post, or toast. Cbl62 (talk) 00:46, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Take your time. If and when you go over the history of Yost again, I will be curious about any mention of scheme, especially if such also mentioned McGugin. If it gives accounts of either one punting, that too adds a certain color to their story. Given their emphasis on it, one has to get a kick (pun(t) not intended) out of Yost teaching his boys to punt or McGugin booming punts in an all-star game in his 7th year at Vandy. Would you happen to know if Yost ran the same schemes at his various jobs before Michigan? I would assume so and have a few other tenuous reasons to think so. Cake (talk) 17:48, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, I have to wonder about the details of the story linking Stagg and Yost. Cake (talk) 18:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Ignatius M. Duffy and Nate Duffy
Cbl, do you think Ignatius M. Duffy and Nate Duffy might be the same person? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Eric Mayes
Cbl, you might want to take a look at Eric Mayes. The article may have been created by Mayes himself. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:10, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

AfD redirect, etc.
Cbl, you may want to amend your rationale for the pending Alabama decade article AfD:. Attribution of cut-and-pasted content should be preserved for purposes of the Commons licensing and copyright release, and that's normally done by proper edit summaries noting the cut-and-paste and source page (apparently not done in many of the present cases, but correctable with dummy edit summaries) and attribution notices on the talk pages of daughter articles. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Pollyanna Johns Kimbrough
When you created Pollyanna Johns Kimbrough, You identified her as American in the INFOBOX and in a category. Given that she was born in Jamaica what is the basis for saying that she obtained American citizenship? I don't see anything in the article mentioning that.(I'm in the process of adding and checking wikidata entries and want to make sure that the country of citizenship is correct)-- S Philbrick (Talk)  14:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, she was born in the Bahamas, moved to Jamaica at age one, and then to the USA at age 13. I'm not sure whether or not I saw a source saying she became an American citizen.  Given the uncertainty, maybe it's best to leave the citizenship blank. Cbl62 (talk) 14:19, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

This Thursday: Women in Architecture edit-a-thon @ Getty Center
You are invited to join the Women in Architecture edit-a-thon @ Getty Center in LA on October 15! (drop-in any time, 10am-4pm)--Pharos (talk) 18:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Robert Duax
Hi -- I'll check into it and send a note to the University archivist as well. Thanks for getting in touch! User: Robinjbr-sau

SAU Articles on Bob Duax
It seems as though Bob Duax helped found the SAU Women's Basketball team in 1975 (first as a club sport) (http://www.saubees.com/d/2014-15/basketball/WBB_Coach_15.pdf). He was inducted into the St. Ambrose University Athletic Hall of Fame in 1983.(http://www.saubees.com/f/Hall_of_Fame.php)

Online Articles Referencing Bob Duax
http://www.sau.edu/News_and_Events/n120227_MCC_title.html http://www.sau.edu/News_and_Events/N120327_Queen_Bee_Pedigree.html --Robinjbr-sau (talk) 22:23, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

New signature?
Can you take a look at Articles for deletion/List of Belk Bowl broadcasters? There appears to be something wrong with either your signature or the delete-sort notice you added to the AfD. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Didn't see problem on my screen but made a tweak. Cbl62 (talk) 17:43, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * My comment following the delete-sort notice, as well as your follow-on comment to mine, are being rendered in small caps. It looks it has something to do with the coding of your signature within the delete-sort notice.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Fixed it. Cbl62 (talk) 17:49, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

ACC members
"With South Carolina accepting an invitation to join the SEC, the 1991 game was the last meeting between the two schools as ACC members." FYI, USC left the ACC after the 1971 season. It was an independent for 20 years before joining the SEC. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:26, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Will fix that. Cbl62 (talk) 14:29, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Infoboxes
When you create an article of a player that played in the NFL, can you please use the NFL infobox and not the college player one?--Yankees10 03:01, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If a player is known principally as a college player, it my practice to use the college football infobox. A college star who goes on to play a few games in the NFL and is principally known for his college years should have the college infobox. Cbl62 (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * For what reason? The college infobox omits key NFL info and adds nothing that the NFL one doesn't other than shiny colors. It makes no logical sense.--Yankees10 17:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Hayden Epstein
Hayden Epstein is a 3x Big Ten Special teams player of the week according to a source that I have found multiple errors in. Do you know of a RS for StPotWs from that era?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:42, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I didnt't realize that MGoBlue.com goes back to 1998. I will use that.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, some sources credit him as a 2x Lou Groza Award finalist and 2x Ray Guy Award finalist. I think he was probably a two-time candidate or two-time nominee or whatever the proper terminology is. Any comment?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:45, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't know abut his status as a Groza or Guy award finalist or nominee. That would need to be researched and supported by reliable sourcing.  Also, what is "StPotWs"? Cbl62 (talk) 04:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Special teams Player of the Week. Note how the article currently handles the discrepant info.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

AP All-Pacific Coast vs All-Pacific Coast Conference
I was looking at 1950 All-Pacific Coast Conference football team, and noticed that AP selected some players from San Francisco, which was never in the PCC. (2015 Pac-12 Media Guide, p. 5). The AP source says players from conference and independent schools are considered, leading me to believe AP's All-Pacific Coast is a regional honor not necessarily limited to the PCC. This seems to have been the case since their first team published in 1926, which had players from another non-PCC team, St. Marys.

Having created List of All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams, which currently acts as a directory to all the links previously only at All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams, I then noticed that most of the pages were named "XXXX All-Pacific Coast football team", with a scattering of "XXXX All-Pacific Coast Conference football team". Is there a significance to the names including "Conference" sometimes but not others? For the All-Pac-12 list, I'd like to limit it to pages dealing specifically with the conference. Should the existing lists be modified to not include the AP refs and renamed to have "Confernence" added, or do you think All-Pacific Coast teams are notable enough to keep, and new All-Pacific Coast Conference lists should be created as needed? Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 08:21, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * For many years, I could only find All-Pacific Coast teams. In those cases, I did not include "conference" in the naming of the list. Where press coverage is focused on the regional teams, I see no reason why the would not be considered notable.  A similar pattern exists in the early 20th century with All-Western and All-Southern regional teams that overlap with/bleed into the All-Western Conference (e.g., Big Ten) and All-Southern Conference teams.  Cbl62 (talk) 15:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no strong opinion if the All-Pacific Coast lists are historical enough to remain as standalones. At a minimum, it needs to be clearly noted that they are of wider scope than just the PCC. I would suggest they not be categorized under Category:All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams, and removed from All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams and List of All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams. A "see also" or brief reference to a high-level page like List if All-Pacific Coast football teams might be OK. Perhaps there are other alternatives?—Bagumba (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If I don't hear any objections, I will follow the model  created for Category:College Football All-Southern Teams, and create Category:College Football All-Pacific Coast Teams.  Any lists that are not limited to voting in the Pacific Coast Conference specifically will be recategorized there.  If some of those lists have actual PCC-only polls, then I will split off relevant data from XXXX All-Pacific Coast football team into XXXX All-Pacific Coast Conference football team. Category:All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams will only include the PCC-only lists.—Bagumba (talk) 22:39, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Let's not split things too quickly. I had actually considered the type of disposition you suggest, which is what I also followed in splitting All-Western from All-Big Ten teams. (See 1914 All-Big Ten Conference football team and 1914 All-Western college football team).  However, in the case of All-Pacific and All-PCC teams, the overlap was so overwhelming that I concluded it was best to deal with them in a single article for each year and to include such articles in Category:All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams.  A few sample years bring the issue into focus:
 * * 1922 All-Pacific Coast football team: 3 selectors of which 2 are explicitly all-conference, but even the third is made up exclusively of conference players. I see no reason to split the third team into a second article or to remove it from Category:All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams.
 * * 1923 All-Pacific Coast football team: 1 selector which is not explicitly all-conference, but it is made up exclusively of conference players. Again, I see no reason to split the article or remove it from Category:All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams.
 * * 1924 All-Pacific Coast football team: 1 selector which is not explicitly all-conference, but it is made up exclusively of conference players (Idaho was a conference team in 1924). Same analysis as 1923.
 * * 1925 All-Pacific Coast football team: 4 selectors, of which 3 are explicitly limited to conference players. The 4th selector, Norman E. Brown, included 1 non-conference player (Larry Bettencourt of St. Mary's -- Montana was a conference team in 1925) on this coast squad. I think the way to deal with Brown is to note explicitly that his squad was not limited to conference players and that St. Mary's was not a member of the conference team.  I think that resolution is preferable to splitting Brown's team into its own separate stand-alone article. If Brown's team is split, we lose the benefit of seeing how the selectors agree or disagree on a side-by-side basis.
 * * 1926 All-Pacific Coast football team: 1 selector, the AP, and its selectors are not limited to conference players. Yet, 10 of the 11 first-team picks are conference players (Bettencout, again, is the exception). In this case, I again believe that explicit wording is the way to avoid confusion.
 * These are my thoughts. Let's discuss. Cbl62 (talk) 00:48, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm still mulling your points, but here are some additional talking points to consider: —Bagumba (talk) 10:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Readers interested in the Pac-12 would be confused (annoyed?) if they saw non-PCC schools players sprinkled on AP/UPI lists if they are led there from List of All-Pacific-12 Conference football teams. The 1934 team had 9 non-PCC players.
 * 2) From 1959–1967, the conference was named Athletic Association of Western Universities (AAWU). While the names "All-Pacific Coast" and "All-Pacific Coast Conference" are similar and the casual reader might not notice, it would be strange to link to All-PC teams for years when the conference was AAWU (WP:EGG).
 * 3) The Pac-12 media guide only has all-conference teams starting in 1952. (2014 Media Guide, p.122) However, WP lists show that the PCC commissioner announced teams from at least 1947–1950.  We don't necessarily have to follow the MG, but it's irking not knowing if there is something significant or not about the cutoff that we are not aware of.
 * 4) From at least 1928–1935, NEA picked teams limited to PCC players, the only agency that seems to have made that restriction.
 * 5) Spaldings published some Official Football Guide that have All-PCC teams. Not sure in what respect it is "official" though.
 * 6) As modern-day All-Pac-12 is generally considered to be the coaches vote (not so much Phil Steele, ESPN, or other pubs), WP:OR is a concern with commingling the selections with other non-conference coach selected teams, moreso if the various teams aren't grouped together in other sources.
 * 7) More OR concerns with selectively naming specific years All-PCC vs All-PC depending on the whether the results have exclusive PCC players or not. The 1947–58 lists are All-PCC, but 1959–63 reverts back to All-PC. The results may change, but the selection criteria appears to be consistent that AP and UPI were free to pick non-PCC players, even if PCC was the powerhouse. My modern basketball analogy is that we don't group the All-District teams of USBWA or NABC with All-Pac-12, merely because the selections are dominated by Pac-12 players.
 * 8) I see some of the All-PC lists list a selection by a single writer, referee, or coach. Are those relevant?  We don't list individual writers' picks in the AA articles, so it seems inconsistent and WP:UNDUE to do so for all-conference.
 * Regarding your Point 1: I think it's more likely that fans of college football history would appreciate having the links to earlier teams (as opposed to holes/gaps in the historical record), so long as the information is clearly labeled to avoid confusion. I'm going to be busy with family over the holiday weekend, but I am willing to add better clarifying language next week.
 * Regarding your Point 2: This can be addressed with clearer introductory language in each article, noting that the selections are not limited to "conference" players but are instead regional teams for the Pacific Coast. St. Mary's is the most notable non-conference team to receive All-PC selections. It became a national football power for a few years.
 * Regarding your Point 3: Many reasons why the media guide might start in 1952, one of which is that they simply didn't bother to collect earlier data. So long as we have reliable sources reporting on notable selections made prior to 1952, there is no reason not to include them.
 * Regarding your Point 4: NEA was not an "official" conference-sponsored selector. Its selections are no more or less valid than AP or UP.  By including all three side by side, it allows the reader to obtain a clearer, more balanced, read on who truly were the best players of a particular year.  As Wikipedia editors, it's not our role to make judgments as to who was the "best," but by including all of the relevant information in one place, we allow the reader to be most fully informed.  For example, if we eliminated the AP and UP lists, a reader of 1929 All-Pacific Coast football team would be misled into thinking Russ Saunders was considered the best QB in the conference, when in fact the AP and UP both selected Marshall Duffield of USC. Likewise, NEA picked Orville Mohler as QB in 1931, while AP and UP both chose Gaius Shaver. My view in these situations is that more information is better.  So long as the information is clearly labeled and described, the risk of confusion is avoided, and the goal of fuller information is also served. Cbl62 (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding your Point 5: The Spalding Guides were "official" in that they were the place where each year's "official" rules were published. Spalding considered Walter Camp the one and only "official" AA selector during his lifetime.  The publishers reprinted numerous other All-American, all-region, and all-conference selections.  Inclusion in the guide doesn't make them "official".  The publisher of the guide was simply acting as an aggregator in collecting information of interest to readers.
 * Regarding your Point 6: I don't see this as OR at all. We are providing access in one place to all of the notable selectors' choices, which choices have been published in reliable sources. By listing them all in one place, it allows the reader to see which players received multiple selections.  This is especially helpful in the case of AA teams, where there are sometime numerous notable selectors each making selections.  See, e.g., 1925 College Football All-America Team.
 * Regarding your Point 7: I don't see this as an OR issue, so long as each article is named correctly. The broad selection criteria used by AP/UPI create this issue. Cbl62 (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding your Point 8: For the first 40 or so years of All-America selections, we actually do include lists selected by individual writers, coaches, etc. Prior to mid-1930s or so, most of the notable lists were prepared by individuals (e.g., Walter Camp, Caspar Whitney, Norman E. Brown, Walter Eckersall, Grantland Rice, Frank G. Menke, Jack Veiock, Billy Evans, etc.).  The same applies to the all-regional, all-conference teams. Cbl62 (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll start threads and sign them so it's easier to respond and follow:—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC) Have a great Thanksgiving.—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that introductory text could help. The goal is no surprises if an All-PCC wikilink ends up being redirected to a more general All-PC article.—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * As for 1952 being the media guide cutoff, I'm not saying to treat it as gospel, but we should do due diligence to make sure it isn't significant. I'm sure you're more well versed on college football history than me, so I'll defer to you on that.—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't implying NEA was an official selector. Even if it was, we could make an editorial decision to include others.  However, the guiding factor is WP:UNDUE and that we "should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects". Again, I'm not too big on history, so my natural question was whether we were sure a team selected by so-and-so is important enough to mention.  Placing teams together without qualification gives the reader the impression that they have equal standing.  I don't have the wherewithal to judge, my knowledge is limited to recent decades, so was just concerned what the criteria for inclusion is. Thus, it would be ideal (maybe wishful thinking) if an identified RS exists that discusses the history of all-conference teams, as "we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public." UNDUE more clearly states the concerns I alluded to with "OR" before.—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * As for the lists' titles wavering between All-PC and All-PCC, your comment that "broad selection criteria used by AP/UPI create this issue" is correct to an extent. Maybe I misunderstood you earlier in that I thought you implied that some lists were named All-PCC because the AP/UPI results were all PCC players, not because they clearly stated the voting was limited to the PCC.—Bagumba (talk) 22:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * For example, The AP ref in 1940 All-Pacific Coast Conference football team says "every player in the far west, regardless of affiliation, is eligible for the team". While the first and second team ended up with only PCC players, the honorable mentions included others.—Bagumba (talk) 22:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, Bagumba. Some time, I'd like to hear how you chose your user name (fan of Gilligan's Island is my guess based on google search). Cbl62 (talk) 22:03, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly, thankfully before reality TV existed. Though that show was equally asinine.—Bagumba (talk) 22:27, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Old, neglected Eastern football
Hi there cbl. When you get a chance, will you help me find some of the most notable years for old, neglected Eastern powers outside of the Ivy League? I mean teams like Washington & Jefferson, Colgate, NYU, etc. Cake (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * What exactly is it that you're looking for? Cbl62 (talk) 16:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Pre 1933 Northeastern major college football teams of high notability on neglected teams outside of the Ivy League, such as the above examples. 1896 Lafayette football team is perhaps the paradigm case. A few others outside the East region are needed too. 1906 St. Louis for example. Only found 3 of their games. Cake (talk) 04:36, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I have just added Penn teams for 1890-1893, 1896, 1900-1903, 1905-1906, 1909, and 1917. Cbl62 (talk) 21:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Well done. If we can eventually get the schedules of the Big 4 and rest of the Ivy League, and some rivalry articles say for Dartmouth-Harvard and Dartmouth-Cornell and the like, it would be a sign of progress. I can't say it's what I was talking about though. What you've been doing with Lafayette is great and the next step – I am looking for those squads which need a first step, such as I've done with Haskell, and the above mentioned teams. Some I can think of which need it include the Amherst Lord Jeffs and the Tufts Jumbos. I was hoping you might know some prominent years for neglected teams, such as 1921 W&J or 1921 Lafayette, which I did not. My question might be phrased as iterations of "What's the most notable, old season for the Tufts Jumbos?" with the team changing. Cake (talk) 23:32, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure about Tufts or Amherst. Colgate is another to consider. I did add 1910 Pittsburgh Panthers football team which is a pretty important one to have been neglected. Cbl62 (talk) 23:39, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Speaking of neglected teams, I added 1928 Detroit Titans football team. Cbl62 (talk) 00:00, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Very good! That's the kind of thing I was searching for. Cake (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Lance Dottin
You must have had a source for the UofM football leaders. Someone has changed Lance Dottin's int totals. Please check.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:48, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Series vs. rivalry
I see that Illinois–Michigan football series has been moved to Illinois–Michigan football rivalry. What was the justification for this article again? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:13, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * * Not sure if you're asking for the justification for the move or for the article, so I'll address both. As for the decision to move the article, I did not agree with the decision, tried reverting it, but another editor kept moving it.  As for the substance of the article, the Michigan-Illinois series is historically notable by any measure -- length of the series (dating back to 1898); regularity of the series (94 games making Michigan Illinois' third most frequent historic opponent); border state competition; legendary games in the Grange years; matches between Hall of Fame coaches Zuppke, Yost, and Crisler; the Elliott vs Elliott brotherly competition in the 1960s; numerous games in which both teams were ranked (1942, 1944, 1946, 1953, 1983, 1989-1991, 1995 and 2000); multiple upset matches of highly-ranked/undefeated opponents (e.g, 1928, 1939, 1955, 1963, and 1985), a Big Ten record of 132 points scored in 2010, etc.  In our discussion around the time of the article's creation, I suggested at your talk page a framework for a guideline which I believed could be superior to the largely subjective and slippery question of what constitutes a "rivalry".  You never responded to my post.  The link to that post is at Proposed College Football Series Notability Guideline. Let me know if you would like to discuss further. Cbl62 (talk) 06:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Madison G. Gonterman
Cbl, I wonder if Madison G. Gonterman coached at Knox College in 1899. The Knox website lists "Mark Gonterman" as the coach in 1899: http://prairiefire.knox.edu/sports/2012/4/30/FB_0430125211.aspx?path=football. Madison's NY Times obit notes that he attended "Knox Academy" in Galesburg, Illinois. When you have a chance, perhaps you could check the sources at your disposal and see what you can figure out? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I am satisfied that he was, in fact, the football coach and athletic director at Knox in 1899. This autobiography seals it (and also provides extensive biographical details).  This 1899 article also identifies Gonterman as the coach at Knox in 1899.  Here is another reporting on his departure from Indiana in 1898: this. There is also this from the Boston Globe in Sept 1899 noting that "Speedy" Gonterman had "developed the best football team ever organized at Knox College." Also, this article form Boston Globe in July 1899 reporting: "Mat [?] Gonterman, who graduated from Harvard in 1896, has engaged as athletic director at Knox college, Galesburg, Ill. Gonterman played on the Harvard varsity football and baseball teams." Putting these sources together with the claim on the Knox.edu web site that he was the coach in 1899, this seems sufficient to show that he was, in fact, the Knox football coach in 1899. Cbl62 (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your research here. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Happy Bowl Season!
May your Christmas be [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvfhoWIPoVw merry and bright. . .] Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Merry Christmas to you, as well! Unfortunately, bowl season will be bright only for one of us. Hopefully, it's a good game between two great programs on the rise. Cbl62 (talk) 22:39, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Hell, Cbl, I'm just happy the Gators didn't have the losing season that was predicted. Sure, I want the Gators to win, but either 10–4 or 11–3 both sound pretty darn good when they were predicted to go 5–7 or 6–6.  McElwain definitely earned his SEC coach of the year honors during this transition year, and next season the QB situation should be stable.  However they may finish their bowl game, the Gators have already exceeded expectations and then some.  Cheers.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:46, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Early Wisconsin–Whitewater coaches
Cbl, when you have a chance, I'd like your help on researching some early coaches at Wisconsin–Whitewater. Take a look at Template:Wisconsin–Whitewater Warhawks football coach navbox. I wonder if the coach in 1900 was A. F. Holste? And perhaps Victor M. Place in 1909? Let me know if you can find anything that either supports or refutes those. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 07:20, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

My initial searches haven't turned up anything advances your suspicion. To the contrary, what I have found suggests otherwise:
 * Holste: This article and this one, both from August 1900, indicate that August. F. Holste planned to return to U. Chicago in the fall.
 * Place: This article from Dec. 1909 suggests that Victor M. Place was at that time a practicing attorney in the Pacific Northwest. (The article indicates he received a Harvard law degree in 1906.) Cbl62 (talk) 14:49, 23 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the research on these guys. I found some more on each of them.  Holste also coached at Hasting College in Nebraska, and Place coached at Ohio Wesleyan. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Notable?
Tony Jackson (American football)? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:13, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Busy day today, but a quick search doesn't turn up significant coverage in reliable, independent sources . Moreover, his college statistics found here (134 yards from scrimmage over three years) are unremarkable for a tight end (his college position). And his time as an NFL practice squad player doesn't get him over the hump either. Cbl62 (talk) 14:27, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

All-Southwest Conference
Here is a 1928 team. This wiki is useful for finding teams - providing the claims of multiple media guides. Cake (talk) 12:55, 28 December 2015 (UTC)