User talk:Cbl62/Archive 2016

Flooded out
The building where I both live and work, in the lowest part of Laguna Beach (which is actually below sea level), was flooded this morning by El Nino storm waters. The rain has stopped for now, but still struggling to get the water out with more heavy rains projected for tomorrow and Thursday. Depending on how the next two days go, I may not be responsive here on Wikipedia. But then again, logging on for a bit may help to relieve the stress! Cbl62 (talk) 05:05, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Congratulations
If you like you can add this userbox to your collection.

Buster Seven   Talk  16:02, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of Arizona Wildcats football series records and three others for deletion
Cbl62, because of the interest you expressed in a closely related topic during the discussion @ Articles for deletion/Texas Longhorns football series records, I am notifying you that a new discussion is taking place as to whether the following articles are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether they should be deleted: These articles will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Arizona Wildcats football series records until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Users may edit the articles during the discussion, including to improve the articles to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the articles. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:50, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Arizona Wildcats football series records;
 * 1) Charlotte 49ers football series records;
 * 1) Texas A&M Aggies football series records; and
 * 1) UMass Minutemen football series records.

Some referees
Hi Cbl. When you get a chance, could you provide your historical insight to the Bradley Walker and Horatio B. Hackett articles? Both officiated quite a few Michigan games, as I understand. Cake (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Added some re Hackett. As for Walker, newspapers.com has three article from The Tennessean following his death, but they require a premium subscription that I do not have. See here. Cbl62 (talk) 19:29, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I like to think of myself as having done pretty well to cover neglected UVA figures such as Walker, but one Edward Findlay was from UVA and a referee of so many southern games. I have yet to discover the man. Cake (talk) 16:47, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

You appear to be engaged in an edit war
I note four quick reversions in the same article (Margaret_Degidio_Murphy). Perhaps you'd like to cool down, let discussion take its course, abide by the result? --Pete (talk) 22:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * -- In order to return the article to its status quo, it was necessary to remove four piecemeal edits. I do agree with you, however, that we ought to let the discussion take its course and abide by the result.  Your edits and those of User:Reyk were attempts to alter the status quo while the discussion is pending. Will you also do the same? Cbl62 (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I haven't made any such edits since reading the formal notice of the discussion. --Pete (talk) 22:47, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Perfect. Thanks. Cbl62 (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Winningest
In the discussion, you said "There is no ambiguity. It means "having the greatest number of wins", not having the highest winning percentage. This is how it is used on Wikipedia." In general you are correct about its usage, and I agree with the definition. But I was just wondering what are your thoughts on these articles (not a comprehensive list), where winningest is used in conjunction with winning percentage: Thanks. --Jameboy (talk) 17:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Homer Drew
 * Jack Forsythe
 * List of Seattle Seahawks head coaches
 * Cheryl Reeve
 * Dick Siebert
 * Al Jacks
 * Dick Tarrant
 * Sue Guevara
 * Loren Ellis
 * Florida State Seminoles baseball
 * 1951 Maryland Terrapins football team
 * Dave Chambers
 * Grand Valley State Lakers football

I was told...
that you're the one to speak to about All-American selections and selectors. How much credence is given to the Helms Foundation football All-American selections? A quick skim online only turned up basketball All-America teams. At the very least, I was wondering if it's worth putting in an infobox, e.g. Marvin Stewart, who was apparently a 2-time Helms All-American. Lizard (talk) 17:15, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I am generally familiar with the Helms Athletic Foundation, but I was not aware of its having selected football All-Americans. (I was only aware of its basketball All-Americans.) By way of background, the Foundation was the pet project of Paul Helms, the owner of the Helms Bakery in Los Angeles.  The old Helms Bakery on the west side of LA was a huge facility that has since been turned into a retail complex.  The Foundation was originally a vanity project, but it gained considerable notoriety, at least on the west coast, for its annual selection of basketball All-Americans and national collegiate champions in football and basketball.  The Foundation also had a huge sports library and museum that was taken over by the LA84 Foundation after the 1984 Summer Olympics.  The museum/library still exists and is located at LA's Eugene W. Britt House; it is one of the country's foremost sports libraries. Cbl62 (talk) 17:36, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I'll just make passing mention of it in the article I suppose. The two sources I found for the claim are here and here. Maybe the university just wants to recognize as many All-Americans as possible. Which I'm not a fan of, even if it's my own university. Lizard  (talk) 17:50, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * When it comes to All-America selections, universities are notoriously unreliable in their assertion that various players were "All-Americans", often citing second- or third-team selections as "All-American" without further detail. Not sure if LSU does this, but I've seen it often in other universities' publications.  For these reasons, and IMO, it is preferable (though certainly not mandatory) to have citations to reliable, third-party, independent sources for All-America claims. Cbl62 (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Those sources specifically cite Helms though. This is different than calling them a generic All-American, in which it can be assumed that it wasn't a consensus AA, and could be as simple as a third-team from some less prestigious selector. Other than that, are colleges not "reliable" that a player earned some AA recognition?—Bagumba (talk) 21:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I not saying the assertion can't be made based on university publications, just stating a preference for independent sourcing on AA honors in particular. Even when universities make reference to a specific selector, I have seen them refer to players as an All-American when in fact they were a second- or third-team pick by that selector. There are several other factors that make me skeptical in this case, including the following:


 * (1) I searched newspapers.com for the period from 11/21/35-1/30/36 and could not find any references to a Helms All-America team


 * (2) I searched newspapers.com for the same period and found no references to Stewart being an All-American.


 * (3) This is a newspaper profile on Stewart from 12/28/35, and it makes no reference to AA honors.


 * (4) This is a profile on Stewart from 12/22/35 comparing him to another Southern center who did win AA honors. The article mentions the AA honors for the other guy but says nothing about Stewart having been honored.


 * (5) I searched the LA84 Foundation on-line library (which includes the Helms Foundation archives) and found nothing. This is the only Helms football report I could find for the years 1935 or 1936, and it consists of high school selections.


 * (6) I searched the New Orleans Times Picayune archives found here and found nothing in the period referencing "taylor" and "helms".


 * Of course, this doesn't mean that Stewart wasn't picked on a Helms AA team in 1935, but if he was it sure didn't get any attention that I could find.  Cbl62 (talk) 23:01, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * That's fair on Stewart re: Helms. Getting back to someone being called an AA, is it not accurate to refer to someone say third-team All-American by AP as just an "All-American"?  Sure it's not as specific, but is it considered misleading or even incorrect if they weren't 1st team?—Bagumba (talk) 23:16, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Personally, I would consider it in the nature of a "half-truth" (something that is technically true, but is misleading given the failure to include additional relevant or qualifying information) to simply call someone an All-American when, in fact, the only recognition they ever had was a second- or third-team selection. I have also seen "honorable mention" recipients referred to as an "All-American"; the latter IMO opinion is simply incorrect. Cbl62 (talk) 23:22, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree. When I see "All-American" I assume that means a starter, AKA a first-team All-American. To that same point I hate how pro bowl alternates are still considered pro bowlers with no differentiation between the ones actually selected, but that's another issue. Lizard  (talk) 00:37, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * It would be like saying the runner-up for Miss Universe was the winner of the pageant. Lizard  (talk) 05:16, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The south especially makes it hard, for a first-team selection on Camp's team might as well have been the Heisman Trophy to them. Therefore Josh Cody has a pretty dubious claim as the only 3-time All-American for Vandy, yet one cannot find his name without it mentioned. It can get confusing, John Ripple wasn't the first North Carolinian to make first-team All-American, that belongs to Fred Crawford. Cake (talk) 23:00, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Do you know the reason for the difference in unanimous All-America selections on Sports-Reference and here, compared to the Wikipedia articles for each year? For example, 1959 College Football All-America Team lists Cannon and Flowers as unanimous selections, but Sports-Reference and the other above source do not. And there are numerous other examples for other seasons. Lizard  (talk) 04:06, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I do not know the reason for the difference. In the case of Mr. Cannon, the NCAA guide (here at p. 6) does not include an asterisk identifying him as a unanimous pick. Yet, our sources indicate that he was a first-team pick by all six official selectors (AFCA, AP, FWAA, NEA, TSN, and UPI). The contemporaneous account here also calls him one of 4 unanimous picks. This may be a simple oversight by those preparing the NCAA guide. Cbl62 (talk) 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not subbed to newspapers.com so I'll take your word for it. Hmm. This makes my plan for an article listing unanimous All-Americans by year a little tricky. I was following the sources I linked, but for consistency's sake I think I'll stick to Wikipedia and borrow our sources. Lizard  (talk) 20:37, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Rashan Gary
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Chicago Tigers
Never heard of those guys before. Should have won more games with Ghee, Des Jardien and Barrett. Cake (talk) 15:10, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

An image of Cannon and Nixon
Do you think I could use this image on Billy Cannon in the Heisman section, under the rationale that Nixon is deceased, along with the other mumbo-jumbo that goes with fair use rationale? I've never had much luck with images on WP so I figured I'd ask someone with experience. Lizard (talk) 17:48, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Lizard, I don't think that will work, because 1) Cannon isn't dead and 2) moreover, we already have public domain photos on Wikipedia of both Nixon and Cannon. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:25, 13 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Agree with Jw. Cbl62 (talk) 18:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah well, thanks guys. It was worth asking. Lizard  (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Alley Broussard
Currently trying to get Alley Broussard WP:REFUNDed. I'm pretty sure he's at least notable for the record he still holds, no? In addition to his unceremonious departure from the team and the hoopla that followed. Lizard (talk) 18:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The prior version of the article, which was deleted in 2009, was completely unsourced and made no mention of any record he held. As part of any undelete request, you may want to make note of these deficiencies in the prior article. Cbl62 (talk) 18:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I would, if I had any means of viewing the deleted article. Lizard  (talk) 19:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


 * The full text with no sources read as follows: "Alley Broussard (born September 6, 1983) is a college football running back for the Missouri Southern State University football team. Prior to that, he was a member of the LSU Tigers football team. Alley Broussard was recruited out of Acadiana High School in Scott, Louisiana.  During the majority of his career, he split playing time at LSU with runningbacks, Joseph Addai and Justin Vincent. Despite the splitting of playing time, he  amassed a good amount of yardage. He suffered a knee injury during spring practice following the 2006 season and would later transfer to Missouri Southern State University, a university with a Division II level football program." Cbl62 (talk) 19:31, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


 * It was restored. Good god that infobox. We've come a long way. Lizard  (talk) 21:11, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


 * There, I think I've done all I could do to establish notability. I didn't have much luck finding stats for his time at Missouri Southern though so it kinda ends on a cliffhanger. Lizard  (talk) 04:23, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Short punt depth charts
FYI, if you need a depth chart schema in Yost's short-punt formation, I've done it with pages like this. Cake (talk) 09:14, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Scott Alden
Hi Cbl62. I'm having a heck of a time finding sources that talk about Scott Alden, Austin Peay's football, basketball, and baseball coach in the early 1930s. Can you please see if anything comes up for you? I know that you are good at locating references for long ago players and coaches. – if you have anything to expand on this article, that would also be great. Thanks guys! Jrcla2 (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * - I think this is your guy. Looks like he did a whole lot more than coach at Austin Peay. Cbl62 (talk) 20:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * This piece also has some info on Alden's career in government service. Cbl62 (talk) 21:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Another piece on Alden here. Cbl62 (talk) 21:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Cbl, nice research. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Stumbling upon forgotten FBI agents who were aides to the most powerful man in U.S. investigative history. #JustWikipediaThings. Lizard  (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks Cbl, this is good stuff. When I get the chance to beef up the article a little I will. Jrcla2 (talk) 22:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Cbl, are you good with photographs permissions? Scott Alden has been dead for so long, and he's clearly a figure of great public interest, but I don't know how to upload photos that I myself haven't taken. I think his article would be nicely improved with a picture. Are you able to assist with that, or should I ask someone who edits photos? Jrcla2 (talk) 22:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)


 * - Take a look at File:Ray Red McKee.jpg, which is a format I've used to upload photos in similar circumstances. Before using it, however, a reasonable search should be made to determine whether free use photos can be found. Cbl62 (talk) 13:45, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of Asher Clark for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Asher Clark is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted. The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Asher Clark until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Edison (talk) 03:00, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Cbl, in your reply on the AfD for this I think you mean FBS and not FCS. Lizard  (talk) 06:40, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Unknown image of Yost
Hi there, cbl62. No worries if you don't know about it, but I figured you might. In the "history of the forward pass" found in this publication, there is a neat, but blurry image of an old Fielding Yost passing a ball. Here has all kinds of images, including a younger one in a passing pose, but I cannot find the aforementioned one anywhere. Any clue about its source? Cake (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I have not previously seen the image from the NCAA publication. If one wanted a photo of Yost in a passing pose, I think the younger image that you referenced is preferable. Cbl62 (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * IMO, it's worth finding the copyright status of this one with Kipke punting. Cake (talk) 07:51, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The date of the Kipke image is important. If an image was published in 1922, it is in the public domain, but may still be protected if published in 1923. In Kipke's case, he won his greatest fame as a player in 1922 and 1923, so pinning down the exact date and publication history of the image is the best way to clarify the image's copyright status. Cbl62 (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The younger one is certainly better for PD, but it might be neat if the picture was from 1925, or thereabouts. Then again, (and you would know) I'm sure Michigan had some passers in 1912 too. Theirs is also so blurry, but definitely Yost. I was surprised when I could not find a better one, if only to gawk at. Perhaps a vain hope bringing it to your attention could provide another photographer, or something useful. Maybe not. The Bentley site says 1923 for the Kipke punting, though I don't know if to expect precision. One version seems to have some kind of white writing on the sepia photograph. I understand he won his greatest fame as a punter too. Cake (talk) 17:47, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Strupper
Great work on ol' Strupper. I will add what seems pertinent from the 1915 - 1917 to articles. I wonder why he had to play on the freshmen team (that's more common after 1921, i. e. a SoCon and SEC rule). Also thinking about how to incorporate his various nicknames in the lead. As I noted on the talk page, "Ev" and "Strupp" are as common as "Stroop". Cake (talk) 09:10, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The picture in the infobox is a bit interesting to date. Perhaps the end of 1916. The full picture shows Strupper, Spence, Hill, and Guyon. The latter two were on the 1917 team (Hill was a mere sub in 1916, and Guyon had to sit out in 1916). It's the only picture I know of Tommy Spence, who is obviously gone in 1917. A great backfield that never was. Cake (talk) 10:45, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * You may care to know Paul Magoffin referee'd the tie with Washington & Lee, considered quite a classic game. Cake (talk) 13:34, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Herschel Walker could be GA with a little work. Cake (talk) 16:33, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Herschel's college section might be a little too detailed. Could use some trimming. Lizard  (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree. It would be of great help if either of you could find sources on Reynolds Tichenor. Cake (talk) 20:56, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Not finding much. Try these: [ https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5372732/tich_tichenor_is_dead/] (slightly more detailed version of AP obit), this, this (raising possibility he also played 2nd base and shortstop for Georgia in 1897), this (on his receipt of a gold watch in 1912) and this on his use of the hidden ball trick. Cbl62 (talk) 23:37, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks Cbl. He's difficult, and a big Southern figure. Also some dubious stuff. Cake (talk) 03:36, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Something interesting to note about research on Transylvania football (they still sell "undefeated since 1941" football shirts). Their greatest coach was probably Curtis Redden, and Wilbur Morrill Cunningham was a Michigan player who was once their coach, and has no page. He may have later been an attorney. Cake (talk) 14:20, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Tinsley
I noticed that you did some work on Gaynell Tinsley approximately 30 years ago. I had been wondering for a while where he disappeared to in 1939, and it looks like he was playing baseball in the bushes. Sadly this is all I can find about it. Lizard (talk) 22:22, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I will take a look. Cbl62 (talk) 22:43, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * His entry at baseball-reference.com here sheds some light. Cbl62 (talk) 22:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC) See also this article regardin his baseball career. Cbl62 (talk) 22:47, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * That explains why a search for "Gaynell Tinsley" turned up nothing when I looked. They should really adjust their search engine. Lizard  (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's tough to research when a player has multiple variations on his given name, nickname, etc. Here is an article from late 1939 about his ongoing football career. Cbl62 (talk) 22:52, 16 May 2016 (UTC) Additional article: here. Cbl62 (talk) 22:59, 16 May 2016 (UTC) Also this and this. Cbl62 (talk) 23:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

That article comparing Tinsley to Hutson has some really interesting stuff. I had no idea southern teams were ever illegible for the Rose Bowl. Can you find anything else about his "high school job" that he left the Cardinals for? Lizard (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look. Cbl62 (talk) 22:30, 24 May 2016 (UTC)


 * This offers a bit. Apparently, he was a cousin of the Haynesville coach. This one covers his hiring. Cbl62 (talk) 02:04, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

All-America Teams
Do you plan on continuing to add full All-America selections past the 1983 team? Lizard (talk) 23:27, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's a process that I've been working away at for several years.  If you or anyone else wants to assist, any help would be appreciated. Cbl62 (talk) 23:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd love to. Looks like my account is six months old now so I should be eligible for newspapers.com. I'll see if I can get it. Lizard  (talk) 23:57, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually that looks like a hassle. I'll see what I can find with google newspapers and other sources. I'll list the ones I can find here. Lizard  (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you think I should bold the official selectors' second and third teams? e.g. AP-2. I'm not sure what year the bolding started with, but there aren't any I can find as a reference. Lizard  (talk) 01:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting. The earlier articles don't use bolding to designate official selectors. My initial gut reaction is that only first-team selections by official selectors should be nominated, but let me ponder that over night. What do you think?  Cbl62 (talk) 02:59, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think, if not get rid of the bolding altogether, we should bold all the official selectors' selections including second and third teams. Bolding the official selectors only for the first team seems a little convoluted. But I'm like 40/30/30 bold all/remove bolding/bold first-team. I do think the official selectors should be accentuated somehow. Lizard  (talk) 03:16, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I've worked mostly on the pre-1985 articles. In those cases, we've emphasized the distinction between official and unofficial selectors in four ways: (1) clearly stating in the lead which selectors are official; (2) putting official and unofficial selectors into different columns in a consensus chart (see 1971 College Football All-America Team); (3) listing the official selectors first in each player's list (see 1971 College Football All-America Team); and (4) clearly distinguishing official vs. other in the "Key" (see 1971 College Football All-America Team). The question is how many times do we have to repeat the distinction to make it clear. Cbl62 (talk) 03:35, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, somewhere along the way the consensus charts stopped. See 1994 College Football All-America Team. And then there are ones that go way off the standard format (2009 College Football All-America Team), for which I have no idea what we'll do with second and third teams. And then starting with 2010 there's only a unanimous chart. I think firstly we should firmly establish a standard with the 2015 team, for future teams to reference. Lizard  (talk) 04:27, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the consensus chart for the 1971 College Football All-America Team is a pretty good model. I've experimented with a number of variations over the years and think this is pretty good. I've been slowly building them out. Cbl62 (talk) 04:39, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeh a consensus chart is a must, I'd say. Unanimous picks are definitely special, but consensus is what we should be stressing. That's what we denote in Template:infobox college football team. Lizard  (talk) 04:54, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

After some thinking, methinks we should only bold the first-team official selections. Since that's what's used to determine consensus selections. Lizard (talk) 01:57, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

The "dashphen"
Or "hyphdash," if you will. I noticed the All-Big Ten football teams are typed with a hyphen, but according to this nugget they should actually be "All–Big Ten" football team, since "All" modifies "Big Ten" and not just "Big." Do you think we should move them? Not sure if this applies to All-Pac-12 teams as well. Really obscure rule though; I don't even remember how I stumbled upon it. Lizard (talk) 01:53, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Wiki things that make you go hmmmm... Jweiss11 (talk) 03:30, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Dana Coin
— Maile (talk) 12:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

DYK for 1971 Michigan Wolverines football team
— Maile (talk) 12:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Joe F. Carr Trophy
Can you find anything that supports the claim here that the Carr Trophy is "the only MVP Award the NFL has officially sanctioned."? I'm not having any luck. Lizard (talk) 03:19, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I do know that the Carr trophy was officially sanctioned by the NFL. This is confirmed by my research in rewriting the Carr article. As for it being the only MVP award officially sanctioned, I have no sources but it seems logical since later MVP awards were sponsored by outside organizations like the AP, TSN, etc. Cbl62 (talk) 03:27, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright. I'm currently re-working the NFL MVP page to be a little less slanted toward the AP award. It's undoubtedly the most recognized today, but the page gives off the impression that it's the only award that has ever mattered. Lizard  (talk) 03:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of 1934 Michigan State Normal Hurons football team


A tag has been placed on 1934 Michigan State Normal Hurons football team requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a club, but it does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Laxnesh LOKEN (talk) 19:45, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of 1934 Michigan State Normal Hurons football team for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 1934 Michigan State Normal Hurons football team is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/1934 Michigan State Normal Hurons football team until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Laxnesh LOKEN (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Request for a bit of help
Hey there cbl62. Given your expertise on the Wolverines and those who got in their way (and sportswriters), I thought I would ask for your help on the articles of Vanderbilt greats Innis Brown, Hek Wakefield and Gil Reese. Feels like I've just about exhausted the sources on Wakefield and Reese, but am unfortunately still left with several gaps in the biography. Several good tales of Innis Brown are stuck behind google's "snippet view". Apparently he was in awe of the size of the 1905 Michigan line. Cake (talk) 20:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Will take a look as soon as time permits. Trying to finish off the single season articles for EMU at the time, and one of them was just with and AfD. Cbl62 (talk) 20:58, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Impressive work on the Normalites. The main EMU football article has potential. Cake (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Eastern Michigan ain't no joke. Went to the LSU-EMU game last year. Was a lot closer than we bargained for. Lizard  (talk) 23:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually I just now looked at EMU's record over the last ~20 years. I have no idea how we didn't blow them out of Death Valley. The Miles factor is a blessing and a curse. Lizard  (talk) 23:43, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Wakefield: here, here
 * Brown: here
 * Thank you especially for the second one on ol' Hek. Do you know when the "honorable mentions" start for Camp? Cake (talk) 20:08, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * FYI, the Benny to Bennie show is now a GA. Cake (talk) 09:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * On Brown, did Yost have to photobomb the 1905 team picture? Cake (talk) 17:55, 18 September 2016 (UTC) PS Maulbetsch's article seems to have a few ref problems. Cake (talk) 22:44, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

James M. Swift
Cbl62, since you recently stubbed out the Eastern Michigan football season articles, I've been taking a closer look and cleaning up the coach bio articles for the program. I suspect that the coach of the inaugural 1891 team, James M. Swift (American football), is the same person as James M. Swift, attorney general of Massachusetts. Apparently he was a U of Michigan alum. Perhaps, you can take a closer look at this and see if you can confirm or dis-confirm my suspicion? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 15:31, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Will check it out. Cbl62 (talk) 15:33, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Nothing definitive so far, but it appears highly likely these two articles relate to the same guy. Cbl62 (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems both "guys" can be tied to Fall River High School. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:32, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Steve Van Buren's coaching career
What do you make of the tenures and teams mentioned in this and this? I'm guessing the "Newark Bears" were the Orange/Newark Tornadoes. And the Bulldogs were the Philadelphia Bulldogs (American football). It looks like Van Buren for sure was head coach of the "Franklin Miners" in the "Old Eastern Football Conference" from 1959–1960 and the Newark Bears in the Atlantic Coast Football League from 1963–1965. What became of the Franklin Miners became the "Patterson Miners" for either 1961 or 1962. I'm not sure if he was coach during the years between. It looks like he won an AFCL championship with the Bears in 1963. This all just thrust me into a world of football I never knew existed. Lizard (talk) 03:40, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Rivalry article
You've been pretty good at expanding rivalry articles in the past and establishing their notability. Is this rivalry notable? I want a user more experience in this field's opinion before I mark my !vote at the AFD nomination. Thanks, Corkythe hornetfan  (ping me) 17:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Corky - I don't know enough about this series to opine without doing some research. FWIW, my personal view on college football series notability can be found at User:Cbl62/College football series notability. Cbl62 (talk) 18:17, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Amara Darboh
Bang up job on Amara Darboh. I see he is one TD and 7 catches from making the Michigan Wolverines football statistical leaders for career totals. I was just sitting down to make his article after not seeing one last weekend.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Chris Wormley too.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Tony. Cbl62 (talk) 21:00, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Paterno
Am I not wrong to suggest that Paterno's article is grossly imbalanced? And not just because of the amount of text given to certain parts. Read the prose under "Coaching history". From reading that, if I didn't know any better I'd think this guy was some sort of bumbling, ranting idiot who was hated by fans and couldn't control his players. And that doesn't include this nugget I removed a few weeks ago. It almost looks to me like someone went out of their way to paint him in the worst way possible. I wasn't here when all the fun was going down on the talk page, but is this really what was agreed upon that the article should be? Lizard (talk) 04:13, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I've not been heavily involved in editing Paterno's article, but it does look light on his lengthy and legendary coaching career and a bit too heavy on the scandal. IMO opinion the scandal is an important element in any Paterno article and should not be whitewashed, but it should not have more space devoted to it than his entire coaching career. Cbl62 (talk) 12:58, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

John Henry Johnson 49ers→Lions
Can you find any details on John Henry Johnson's trade from the 49ers to the Lions? Like why he was traded, who/what was traded in return, etc. His career really took off from that point. Lizard (talk) 03:51, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Try this on his signing with the 49ers from the CFL, this and this on his trade from the 49ers to the Lions, this one on his trade from Detroit to Pittsburgh, and here is his obit from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Cbl62 (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I should be able to fill in the gaps with these. Lizard  (talk) 17:12, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Night Train
Don't wanna edit conflict, so reminder that Lane had a 98-yard TD reception in 1955. I discovered that when looking up Cardinals franchise records that Gaynell Tinsley still held, and I had to do a double take. Lizard (talk) 20:20, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It's refreshing seeing someone else expanding these articles. I wish the project had more editors willing to contribute to actual article content. I would think that was the fun part of editing Wikipedia. Lizard  (talk) 07:33, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

NFL 75th anniversary team
What do you think of the NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team? Do you think it's held in high enough regard by the NFL community to warrant prioritizing the articles of players listed on it? Mainly, to serve as a starting point for the greater HOF improvement campaign. I'll be honest though, I don't hear or see much about it in modern media. At least not when compared to counterparts like the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History. Lizard (talk) 16:45, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems pretty reputable and a good basis for prioritizing any improvement campaign. Cbl62 (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

"Recognized national champions"
CFBdatawarehouse has a "recognized national champions" which maybe we can use to avoid WP:OR but not have odd MNC recognition like with 1916 Georgia Tech or 1925 Michigan. Still 1908 LSU, say, but it looks better. Cake (talk) 19:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm gonna have to object to using this until I see a flag with "1908" emblazoned on it hanging in Tiger Stadium. What are we, Bama? Lizard  (talk) 19:53, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Probably hard even to find a Southern champions pennant that year with Auburn claiming it. Cake (talk) 22:02, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * This is really only an issue in the Pre-AP Poll era. With respect to this era, I cannot support recognizing CFDW as a more authoritative source than the NCAA when it comes to which national championships should count. CFDW is one guy (David DeLassus), whose credentials and expertise are entirely unknown, expressing his personal opinion.  I far prefer relying on the "official selectors" recognized by the NCAA. BTW, and even though Michigan doesn't claim it as a national champion, I really don't regard 1925 Michigan as much of an oddball; the team outscored opponents, 227-3, had five first-team All-Americans (Benny Friedman, Bennie Oosterbaan, Harry Hawkins, Robert J. Brown, and Tom Edwards), and Yost considered it "the greatest football team I ever saw in action" (i.e, superior to his Point-a-Minute teams). (If Yost's 1925 team had played 1925 Alabama, a team that had not a single first-team All-American, I'd have put my money on Michigan for sure.) Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * One can respect that 1) it's only the pre-AP Poll era with this problem and 2) In general, the NCAA is more authoritative than CFDW. I edited the '25 Michigan article to get it to GA after nominating your work. Well aware of its credentials. It is an oddball since the team did not go undefeated nor did it win the Rose Bowl.  As for who would be favored in a head-to-head matchup; I don't think that is the way to go about it. Michigan would probably have been favored over Alabama, but then so was Washington, and Dartmouth would have been favored over Michigan or just about anybody. As for All-American,  Camp had just died, the "northern bias" was alive and well. Billy Evans honor roll is your best bet for including the South in any national weighing of talent. Alabama outscored opponents 297 to 26. The Tide had its own version of Friedman and Oosterbaan in Pooley Hubert and Hoyt Winslett. Got Bill Buckler and Cupe Perry and Sherlock Holmes in the line (Wade made his money for his defenses as a line coach; managed Yost pretty well in 1922.), not to mention Mack Brown and Red Barnes in the backfield. Cake (talk) 23:57, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * My point is that, while it's fun to debate these things, we cannot legitimately apply our personal opinions to determine which team is the most legitimate as a national champion in the pre-AP Poll era. Nor do I think DeLassus' opinion is a valid way to go.  My view remains that the only legitimate way to handle pre-AP national champions is by reference to the "official selectors" recognized by the NCAA.  As for All-Americans, Camp did not have a "northern" bias. In fact, Midwesterners were among his strongest critics on account of his constant overlooking of great Midwestern players. Camp's bias in selection of All-Americans was actually an "eastern" bias in favor of the Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Dartmouth, Cornell, etc. As for Benny Friedman/Bennie Oosterbaan vs. Pooley Hubert/Hoyt Winslett, I don't think the comparison is apt. Friedman is recognized as the greatest passer of his generation, and Oosterban is likely the greatest all-around athlete in Michigan history. Cbl62 (talk) 04:49, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I respect that; just making you aware there seems a semi-official link which better fits our (or my) understanding of the history. Fair point about Camp's eastern bias, but to Southern writers it was a northern bias, as I covered on the All-Southern article. Hubert was no Friedman indeed, but considered a ruthless leader and an all-time great defensive back. Winslett was no Oosterbaan, but the South's first AP All American, and like Oosterbaan was who to throw it to in the flats. If Mack Brown got loose, it would be interesting. With all due respect to Friedman, I'd take Andy Oberlander. Cake (talk) 14:51, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Frankly I'd be ashamed if I was a BC fan to say the school claimed this one. I'd say that's worse than Bama claiming 1941, since this just looks like BC trying to put a trophy in an empty trophy case. Lizard (talk) 20:50, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * At least ND doesn't claim 1927. For the navbox, any southern national champions before 1917 look weird (i. e., wrong). So, 1908 LSU, 1913 Auburn, and 1916 Georgia Tech look silly. 1914 Texas and 1915 Oklahoma look just as strange, as do 1919 Centre, 1920 UGA, 1921 Vandy and 1922 Vandy for that matter. 1925 & 1926 Michigan perhaps less so but it would still look better without them. '33 OSU and '35 LSU and TCU as well. With the rest, I can deal. Curious if there is any stock put into e. g. in 1923 Michigan and Illinois were both national champs, and in 1924 Red Grange kicked butt, so Illinois claimed the '23 title outright. Of course, that would ruin 1917 Georgia Tech, but perhaps the war makes that different. PS two of my favorite guys took it to Leahy in 1939. Cake (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Josh Cody and Jess Neely, I'm guessing. Cbl62 (talk) 14:40, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Does Yost have a particularly famous pre-game or halftime speech which you have covered in an article? Your article on the 1922 Wolverines inspired me to annoy wikipedia with my presence, and I cannot seem to get an idea on how to handle McGugin's speech before the 1921 Vandy/Texas game, his most famous. My only options seem to be tl;dr or leaving it out entirely. Cake (talk) 14:01, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Nothing comes to mind as far as famous Yost pre-game on halftime speeches. And "annoy" is hardly the word I would choose. Perhaps "grace" is more on point. Cbl62 (talk) 14:36, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You flatter me. Maybe if Rockne or Heisman got expanded, I could see what to do for McGugin's oratory. PS You seem to have some interest in sports writers, and Blinkey Horn is your man for Yost-McGugin-relations-stuff. Cake (talk) 02:46, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * When you are done with Kent State, can you clarify the Phillips Haymakers? There are the Cappon and Maulbetsch articles differing in records, and a recent Afd for the navbox. Cake (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify what inconsistencies you are referring to? Cbl62 (talk) 20:14, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Cappon's article says they lost a game in 1919, but Maulbetsch's says undefeated with one tie. Need more Phillips seasons but I am reluctant given such cloudy history. Cake (talk)
 * Hmmmm ... will put it on my to do list. Cbl62 (talk) 21:44, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Check this out. Can see the touch even there. Cake (talk) 20:39, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Michigan game
I am in So Cal. I don't know if you have plans to watch the game tomorrow, but I don't yet. Interested?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:32, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I am actually going in northern cal today to watch the game with my sons, but thanks for the suggestion. And go blue!
 * I ended up driving Mulholland Drive, while following the game on my phone.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:38, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Perry UPI POY
Hope you don't mind me asking again, but I can't find a contemporary source for Joe Perry being UPI's player of the year in 1954. Lizard (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This article announces him as the United Press Pro Player of 1954. Cbl62 (talk) 18:14, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Michigan Wolverines softball coach navbox
Template:Michigan Wolverines softball coach navbox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 22:43, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Arizona team/article names
FYI, 1914 forward is "Arizona Wildcats," 1913 and prior is "Arizona Varsity" (as a nickname, not a V vs JV callout. This is supported in RS, including here.  So I have moved associated articles and updated text.  Hope that context helps.  Cheers, UW Dawgs (talk) 17:58, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Eben Wilson
Cbl, I see you moved Eben Wilson to its current title, from "Ebin Wilson", a few years back. All of the sources aside from those census records appear to refer to him as "Ebin", not "Eben". Should the article be moved back? Or maybe have an explanatory note about the multiple spellings? Jweiss11 (talk) 02:25, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I honestly have no recollection of the move. To have moved it, I must have had a good reason. Give me some time to look into this. I am circling back to some of the Point-a-Minute players and will see what I can find. Cbl62 (talk) 02:30, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Steve Gleason's blocked punt
I plan on creating an article for Steve Gleason's blocked punt, but I'm not sure what to title it. I feel like "Steve Gleason's blocked punt" might be too vague, or it might imply that he was the punter. Another option is "Domecoming", but that one only seems to have developed recently. Your thoughts? Lizard (talk) 18:04, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I was not familiar with the play but looked it up and wonder why this subject can't be adequately dealt with in the Steve Gleason and/or 2006 New Orleans Saints season. Generally, we don't allow stand-alone articles on individual games let alone individual plays. IMO a play would have to meet a very high threshold of historical importance to warrant such treatment. Cbl62 (talk) 18:09, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * In New Orleans, I promise you this play is tantamount to the resurrection of Christ. It's widely seen as the turning point in the Saints franchise. And Gleason is revered as nothing short of a folk hero. I understand that a single play must meet a significant threshold of notability. I fully believe it meets that threshold. Among other things, there's a statue of the play outside the Superdome.  Lizard  (talk) 18:58, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Bobby Lewis
Mental lapse I take it, but the Pitt baseball coach was Bobby Lewis. The article in the move request is Bobby Harris. Lizard (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You are correct. Cbl62 (talk) 23:55, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Conference season articles
Cbl62, I see you started a few new Big Ten season articles. Some of the style you're using conflicts with the other pre-existing conference season articles out there. I think it make sense to work on one article, say 1980 Big Ten Conference football season, and really hash out the format and style before stubbing a bunch of others. For one, using CFB Conference Schedule Entry for that bowl game section doesn't seem to put enough emphasis on the names of the bowl games. It's buried as a parenthetical in the site field. The more recent conference seasons used a manually rendered table for bowl games. Perhaps a new template is needed here. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:06, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * A lot of what I see in the 2015 Big Ten Conference football season looks like marginal clutter. For example, the week by week detailing of each game played. My intent is not to create marginal stubs but to include core information in past season articles. Suggestions are welcome.  If you can apply a bowl game format to the 1980 article, I will try to follow it for further articles. Cbl62 (talk) 03:12, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that these articles fore more recent conference seasons are rather clutter-laden and need more thought. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you want to work together to try to develop the 1980 Big Ten Conference football season into a model? Cbl62 (talk) 03:50, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was my thought. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:09, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Cbl62 (talk) 04:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've given the article my initial pass. If you have comments/suggestions, let's continue the discussion on the article's talk page. Cbl62 (talk) 08:20, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Two-Factor Authentication now available for admins
Hello,

Please note that TOTP based two-factor authentication is now available for all administrators. In light of the recent compromised accounts, you are encouraged to add this additional layer of security to your account. It may be enabled on your preferences page in the "User profile" tab under the "Basic information" section. For basic instructions on how to enable two-factor authentication, please see the developing help page for additional information. Important: Be sure to record the two-factor authentication key and the single use keys. If you lose your two factor authentication and do not have the keys, it's possible that your account will not be recoverable. Furthermore, you are encouraged to utilize a unique password and two-factor authentication for the email account associated with your Wikimedia account. This measure will assist in safeguarding your account from malicious password resets. Comments, questions, and concerns may be directed to the thread on the administrators' noticeboard. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:32, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

A new user right for New Page Patrollers
Hi.

A new user group, New Page Reviewer, has been created in a move to greatly improve the standard of new page patrolling. The user right can be granted by any admin at PERM. It is highly recommended that admins look beyond the simple numerical threshold and satisfy themselves that the candidates have the required skills of communication and an advanced knowledge of notability and deletion. Admins are automatically included in this user right.

It is anticipated that this user right will significantly reduce the work load of admins who patrol the performance of the patrollers. However,due to the complexity of the rollout, some rights may have been accorded that may later need to be withdrawn, so some help will still be needed to some extent when discovering wrongly applied deletion tags or inappropriate pages that escape the attention of less experienced reviewers, and above all, hasty and bitey tagging for maintenance. User warnings are available here but very often a friendly custom message works best.

If you have any questions about this user right, don't hesitate to join us at WT:NPR. (Sent to all admins) .MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:47, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Is this guy for real
Check out some of these. Cake (talk) 18:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

McElhenny 1952 ROTY
Can you find a contemporary source for Hugh McElhenny being NFL rookie of the year in 1952? His PFHOF page says he won it but I don't know of any entities giving that award at the time. Lizard (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Here you go. Cbl62 (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, looks like he didn't necessarily "win" a rookie of the year award, but was just generally recognized as that season's best rookie? That's what I'm taking from this. Lizard  (talk) 19:09, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Jimmy Conzelman
Can you explain that revert? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 03:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry for reverting you edit without notifying you, but there was a discussion about this some time ago, with participants including you, me and an MOS guy (I think Tony1 or something like that). I thought the consensus from that was that where an American city has a standalone article name (e.g., Chicago, Houston, Seattle, Detroit, St. Louis), we ought not be linking it in the way you did, that it should either be Chicago, Illinois, or Chicago, Illinois, or just Chicago, but NOT Chicago|Chicago, Illinois.  Can you find the link to that prior discussion? Cbl62 (talk) 04:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure the exact conversation you are talking about. Was Colonies Chris involved?  Seems silly to link to the state in cases where the city is so well-known it gets a standalone name, given that we don't link to the state in cases where the city is lesser known, and the article therefore carries the state name.  I don't see the problem with the Chicago|Chicago, Illinois form in an infobox field like this.  In fact, it seems like the best option because it 1) direct links to the city article in question 2) doesn't overlink with a superfluous link to the state and 3) provides city, state formatting consistent with other analogous fields. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That's how I've been doing it. One link is better than two. Lizard  (talk) 16:26, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

"Breaking through"
Yost's book on football has a bit on "breaking through", and I wonder the term for block shedding through-the-line, or how an encyclopedia might address that (see e. g. Carlos A. Long). Cake (talk) 13:57, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with the term, but my guess would be the same as yours. Cbl62 (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's probably this. Lizard  (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's more likely what Lizard suggested than this. Cbl62 (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Here is one source, and more my style. Cake (talk) 22:08, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

All-ACC and Big 12 teams
Is there a reason we don't have articles for yearly All-ACC or All-Big 12 teams? Otherwise, I can start them for this year. Lizard (talk) 18:19, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I've done the older All-ACC teams from 1953 to 1971. See, e.g., 1955 All-Atlantic Coast Conference football team. Help very welcome on the more recent years and the All-Big 12 teams. Cbl62 (talk) 18:30, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Jim Taylor 1962 NEA MVP
I'm here to make my weekly request of a contemporary source for an MVP winner, this time Jim Taylor winning the NEA MVP (Jim Thorpe Trophy). Lizard (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * On another note, Taylor was perhaps the meanest player that ever played. And i mean, actually mean. Cruel even. You should read some of this stuff, he was pretty heartless. Made guys cry. Lizard  (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Meanest guys in NFL history would be a fun list to compile. Every generation has a few. I will look for the source you requested. Cbl62 (talk) 18:17, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Bueller? Lizard  (talk) 16:06, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

How notable are Sporting News' football awards?
Sporting News is one of the most prolific handers out of awards in both college and the pros. Yet, I consistently have trouble finding independent sources giving any recognition to their awards. I've nearly only ever seen first-party references. National Football League Comeback Player of the Year Award all first-party; National Football League Rookie of the Year Award mostly first-party, an almanac, and a Giants blog for Beckham's win; Sporting News NFL Player of the Year Award, a first-party source and a dead link to HuffPo (nothing of value lost there, I'm sure); National Football League Defensive Player of the Year Award none; Sporting News College Football Player of the Year one link to first-party list of winners (I've searched extensively for independent mentions of this one, to no avail); National Football League Coach of the Year Award none; American Football League Most Valuable Player Award not a single external link on the page. Additionally, Pro-Football-Reference, which is fairly inclusive, doesn't recognize any Sporting News awards. Lizard (talk) 05:33, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The Sporting News archives are available on-line for a small subscription. See here.  When I was doing more baseball work, I used to buy the subscription but let it lapse a while ago.  Maybe you could buy a one-month subscription and track all that stuff down. A one-month subscription is $12.95 (a lot less if you buy multiple months). Cbl62 (talk) 08:34, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Eh, it's not that serious to me. Although the fact that we have to dig so deep to find independent sources reporting on their football awards (if there are any) seems to imply they were never given much credence. I can't find one mention of Bert Jones winning their College POY award outside of the list published by SN, and LSU's media guides. I thought it might justify his recent CFHOF induction, since everything else about his LSU career seems rather underwhelming. Lizard  (talk) 09:17, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Happy Holidays
Happy Holidays text.png Hello Cbl62: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings1}} to send this message

Casanova
Modern sources regurgitate that Tommy Casanova is LSU's only 3-time All-American, but our page states in 1969 he was only selected by... Football News. Who? And their picks aren't even sourced in that article. And LSU's media guide says he was an AP pick, but he wasn't even on their third team. I guess I'll have to regurgitate it as well, but I'm not comfortable about it. Lizard (talk) 17:12, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Media guides are prepared by sports information departments which are far from neutral and often have errors in assertions that its former players were All-Americans. I would trust the original source material on the AP picks rather than the media guide.  Especially where the two are in conflict, the original press announcements are IMO a far more reliable source for AA status than a media guide. Cbl62 (talk) 20:32, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * What about this "Football News"? That's my main issue. If Casanova is considered a 3-time All-American based solely on his being picked by Football News in 1969, I'd like if there was some proof. I know we're not in the business of myth busting here, but I can't in good conscience currently consider him a 3-time All-American. Lizard  (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Casanova was a first-team AA pick by Football News in 1969. See here. I am not familiar with the publication, but its picks were widely reported in mainstream media. Cbl62 (talk) 20:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Welp, that'll do. I guess I can sleep easy tonight. Lizard  (talk) 20:54, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * If I have helped one fellow Wikipedia sleep easy, I have done my job for the day! Cbl62 (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)