User talk:Cecropia/Archive 12

Comments on user pages
Thanks for taking the time to drop me a note. I suppose I'll get around to putting a note on my user page. Thanks for the link to the founder's page. There's a face to this thing! Peace 2 u. deeceevoice 12:37, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

C train
Wow, nice! And I finished my template reworking just in time so I only have to change Template:NYCS C. --SPUI 23:08, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * And I think everything's now back to normal in the articles and station listings. --SPUI 23:22, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lexington Avenue Elevated
Thanks for adding the rest of the stations. I'm curious what the source is; is there a map online that shows them? All that I've found show it already gone past Myrtle Ave, except one general map on davidrumsey.com, which I don't think gives station names. --SPUI 08:35, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I removed Vanderbilt Avenue (since I misinterpreted the paragraph about it at nycsubway.org, and none is shown there on the davidrumsey.com map); can you verify that none was there? I'm not sure if it's a good idea to abbreviate Elevated as L - Elevated is the proper term, and someone linking to or typing in the name is more likely to use that. --SPUI 09:11, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Subway services
Do you have any maps showing BMT letters pre-Chrystie Street? The ones on don't use letters until Chrystie Street opened. --SPUI 00:00, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, thanks. I see I have even visited that link recently, but had forgotten about it. --SPUI 00:14, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:NYC subway origins.png
I've updated this map for the return to regular service (as well as some errors I found recently), if you're interested. --SPUI 01:17, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If you get a chance, can you look over R (New York City Subway) and make sure I didn't get any of the time periods wrong for former service (specifically with the across-the-board changes)? --SPUI 01:59, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link - do you know if the KK on was the first one to be assigned? I tried adding the original BMT letters to New York City Subway line, route and station nomenclature but by the time of that map, some of them had already moved. --SPUI 04:35, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Defunct services
The idea is that the histories of all the other services will be in the articles about the current services, and services labeled 8 H K T will be covered in their own pages. Maybe 'unused designations', though that would imply that never-used letters should be in there too. Maybe they should, and all redirect to a page that explains why those were never used. --SPUI 06:01, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem with that wording is that the JFK Express doesn't really fit. I changed it to 'defunct labels'; if we want to include something about the never-used labels, that can be covered in the nomenclature page. --SPUI 06:27, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't fully understand the letters assigned to the BMT lines. J was Jamaica Line via Nassau Street Line, but the description you added for K (Broadway-Brooklyn Line via Nassau Street Line to the Canarsie or Jamaica Lines) also includes that. --SPUI 06:06, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I used Brighton Beach Line in the table because that's what the BMT called it (at least on the service guide I used), and that's more of a historic table. As for the IRT lines in Brooklyn, I'm still thinking about that. --SPUI 10:08, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BMT chart
Actually, I was trying to show the first designation that was given (or in the cases of the lines transferred to other divisions, the designations they had right after the transfer). Which ones don't fit that? --SPUI 19:56, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another source of line names
- I'm currently looking through it and seeing how well it agrees with other data. --SPUI 21:46, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BMT map
I also asked the guy that runs bmt-lines.com for comments, so I'll see if I learn anything from him. As always, thanks for the input. --SPUI 20:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) I decided it's more important to distinguish subway from other; it mostly shows a neat split into two divisions.
 * 2) I looked through all the service guides on bmt-lines.com and nycsubway.org, and added the services as shown on there. Lines that saw no service in any of them are dashed. It's not meant to have a specific date, but to show all that has existed.
 * 3) I forgot to label that 'connection to IND 63rd St Line'. As for planned lines, there are too many of those to include them IMO.
 * 4) I had missed, which extends it to Crescent - when did it extend to 111th?
 * 5) The intent was to show lines that have been without passenger service for a long time. As for the ferry branch, I had assumed its location based on the current highway ramps (the Gowanus Parkway was built on the old El supports). I note there were also a few realignments of the lines out to the beach - I'm going to have to decide how much I want to show. I also forgot a branch to a race track from the Brighton Beach Line that I've seen on some older maps.

Ah, so the numbers were assigned in 1924. That should help if I have descriptions of the services without numbers. Do you know if all the dashed lines were unused by then? --SPUI 20:54, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So how far did the unused tunnel that now connects to the 63rd St Line go? --SPUI 01:46, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And I don't understand "Re: #12 service, it is mentioned on the link you sent me. It isn't a matter of the Lex being extended, but of being cut back. It was the original service to 168 St, then traded with the Broadway L when the latter got enough steel cars to run the service. So different trains of the Lex ended at Eastern Parkway or Crescent or 111th. When the Lex was discontinued, #14 trains covered runs to Crescent and 111, in addition to going to Canarsie." When the Lex was discontinued, it only ran to Eastern Parkway. --SPUI 01:53, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not familiar with train lengths - any idea what's above ground where it ended, or how far it went? Is the 'fouling point' where the crossover tracks leave? Any idea what the radius is on the inbound track on the G line? --SPUI 04:12, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't need a diagram; I understand basically what's up. I'm hoping with the radius of the inbound track from Queens, I can find where (in terms of streets above) the curve ended. Do you have the distance from the end of that curve to the switch for the crossover to the express tracks (probably the fouling point)? --SPUI 06:05, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * One more question - did the 500' radius curve begin at the fouling point or after it crossed over the track from Queens? --SPUI 06:07, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information; I'm still figuring it out. By 'compass south' do you mean roughly south, or did they actually measure directly south and then east or west to the line? --SPUI 08:28, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

By the way, do you know which street the el used to get from 3rd Ave to 5th Ave? I can't tell if it was 36th, 37th or 38th. --SPUI 08:16, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

About whether it's 1+56 or 4+56: if it's a top-down view, 4+56 would be over 45 degrees. --SPUI 09:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * If the map is roughly to scale, and a top rather than side or straight line view, the curve would be over 45 degrees if the value is 4+56. --SPUI 09:30, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, 45 degrees is 1/8 of a circle. Is the diagram done in a way that that's useful? --SPUI 09:36, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Eh, let's try this. In Image:BMT 57th.png, does it look more like it goes to the dot south of 59th, or the end of the line in Central Park? --SPUI 09:54, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I just uploaded a revised Image:BMT map.png. --SPUI (talk) 12:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

IRT numbers
Do you know if the IND used numbers internally before they were signed in 1948? --SPUI (talk) 13:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I meant IRT. Any idea when they were first used? I'd like to try to follow them back, kind of like with the BMT (though there the official guides included them). --SPUI (talk) 17:34, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've started on a table at User:SPUI/IRT lines. I can't find any service guides before then; looks like I'll have to use that line by line history. Nice to see that their numbering system is still being used; it's a nice neat one that will make it easy to assign services with a sufficient service guide. --SPUI (talk) 18:22, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oh course, the original numbers were 1-8. 8 being Astoria, then the TA assigned it to the Third Avenue el in the Bronx about the time of Chrystie Street. 9 for Dyre wsa a BofT invention. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 18:43, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Brooklyn Loops
Do you think there will be enough for separate articles on the two loops and the system as a whole, or should I move Nassau Street Loop to Brooklyn Loops? The Nassau Street Loop article already talks about the Centre Street Loop. --SPUI (talk) 20:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't really see there being enough on the Centre Street Loop and the Brooklyn Loops idea for a separate article on each. The only thing that would change from the current article is the name (and a bit of the text); Nassau Street Loop would still redirect there. Alternately, the article can stay where it is with the other two redirecting to it. --SPUI (talk) 21:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Template:In the news
Hi. I just saw that the front page reads that Ellen McArthur is a dame. She isn't yet! As you are an admin, could you do this (the template is protected)? Cheers, Smoddy (t) (e) (c) 21:26, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Ta. Smoddy (t) (e) (c) 21:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rolling stock
I've been splitting off the details on the main New York City Subway article into their own pages. I know little to nothing about the rolling stock, so I'd appreciate if you'd clean up Rolling Stock of the New York City Subway (which I've moved most of the stuff into). --SPUI (talk) 08:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Court Street Shuttle
is where I got the 'Schermerhorn Street Shuttle' name from; was that incorrect? --SPUI (talk) 09:28, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Station links
User:msh210 just pointed out that 125th Street (IRT Lexington Avenue Line station) gives 125th Street. Obviously we should use that now. --SPUI (talk) 21:57, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Railroad directions
What I was trying to say is that there are no direct connections that allow a train to go from railroad north on one line to railroad south on another line. For instance, with the planned junction of the Second Avenue Line and the 63rd Street Line, ramps in only two of the four quadrants - the two that conform to this - are being built. This philosophy may explain the lack of connections between the Sixth Avenue and Queens Boulevard Lines at Seventh Avenue, and between the Crosstown and Fulton Street Lines at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets. --SPUI (talk) 22:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, I still think there's something useful to be said here, given that the Jamaica and Myrtle Avenue Lines don't connect to any others (except the Canarsie, which is itself isolated). I just realized that the Chrystie Street Connection keeps the Jamaica Line from working even if it's switched. Maybe just a qualification like "other than on the BMT eastern division and at Coney Island terminal"? --SPUI (talk) 23:17, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Blue Rockaway Park Shuttle
shows the Rockaway Park Shuttle as blue. I'm assuming this is wrong, but I'd like confirmation. --SPUI (talk) 10:02, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * confirms that it's gray, or at least was in late 2004. --SPUI (talk) 10:28, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Flushing Line
Which way is north on the Flushing Line? --SPUI (talk) 16:16, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oops, probably a stupid question, given the former BMT use and connection to the Third Avenue El over the Queensboro. Only respond if Flushing is not the north terminal. --SPUI (talk) 16:18, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Culver Line
I understand the split into two articles; why separate ones for Culver Line and BMT Culver Line though? The pre-IND Culver Line was identical to the BMT Culver Line, with only early changes similar to the other lines still in the BMT. For the record, with the split, most if not all links to Culver Line should be changed to IND Culver Line; I'll do it if you don't want to. --SPUI (talk) 02:26, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I still don't agree - there's no reason to cut the history at an arbitary point (the change from BRT to BMT). There's no reason why the information can't all be on BMT Culver Line, with only post-1954 elevated service south of the connection being in IND Culver Line, and the shuttle, freight and streetcar service being covered in BMT Culver Line to the end or their life. To put it another way, BMT Culver Line would cover everything about the Culver Line except south of Ditmas post-1954, and IND Culver Line would cover only the part south of Ditmas post-1954 (as well as the IND South Brooklyn/whatever Line). One advantage is that Culver Line can still redirect to IND Culver Line (with a see also up top), since the vast majority of references will be to present-day operations.

As for adding the word service, I agree, but I'm not up for doing it right now. --SPUI (talk) 02:51, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd definitely mention BMT Culver Line on IND Culver Line, both at the top as on IRT Lexington Avenue Line and further in, as the lines are related by much more than name. As for the renaming, I agree (though I'm not sure if it should be station or stations - disambig pages seem to use the singular even when it's plural. Like if there are many railroads called Connecting Railroad, the disambig isn't Connecting Railroads.

By the way, after the move to add 'service', Template:NYCS service nb should be edited to add it, which should change the majority of links. --SPUI (talk) 03:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My new adminship
Thank you very much for your kind note and the congratulations re making me an admin. It will take a week or so before i will become really active as I am currently without reliable internet access. WRT to the vote count - a minor mistake happened there - User Apollomelos changed his vote from oppose to support and has been counted twice subsequently. Refdoc 23:47, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Adminship
Hah, I'm not sure I'd be able to make it (I have made some enemies, or at least people who would question my fitness to be an admin), and if it's only to be able to speedy redirects, I might as well just tag them. --SPUI (talk) 03:16, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Categorization
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that using stuff like Culver_BMT isn't necessary; it sorts them automatically if the keys are the same (see how 63rd is sorted).

Anyway, I'm planning to make a Category:Defunct New York City Subway lines, which would be a subcat of Category:New York City Subway lines and Category:New York City Subway history. Any objections? I'll probably do the same for services once I make pages for those. --SPUI (talk) 10:47, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lines like the BMT Lexington Avenue Line, IRT Third Avenue Line and BMT Culver Line would be in it. I understand the argument for not calling them subways, but if they had survived to this day, they would be part of the New York City Subway. --SPUI (talk) 11:21, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How about Category:Defunct IRT lines and Category:Defunct BMT lines? --SPUI (talk) 11:29, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't see the need for the word 'subway'. --SPUI (talk) 11:38, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

See above - Category:Defunct IRT lines and Category:Defunct BMT lines. If any articles about BMT streetcar lines are made (if the BMT did have any) those can go in as well. --SPUI (talk) 11:47, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Deletion of redirects
You may want to weigh in on Templates for deletion (and look at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion to see if you think I misused it). --SPUI (talk) 18:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another thing - do you know if the Second Avenue Line is considered to be BMT or IND, or has that not been determined? I know it's always been planned as IND, but the only revenue connection will be to the BMT (though it will have the other one at 63rd). --SPUI (talk) 18:53, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to move the 60th connection - I made an assumption based on the Chrystie Street Connection. Though chaining isn't always accurate, since at least one IND line is still chained as part of the BMT. --SPUI (talk) 19:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You may have missed this since I edited your talk page twice in a row - you may want to weigh in on Templates for deletion (and look at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion to see if you think I misused it). --SPUI (talk) 12:47, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not going to be making any more disambig pages for the subway stations. I realized that if it's so unlikely that someone will type them anyway, why even have them? --SPUI (talk) 21:59, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thank you!
Just a quick "thank you" for you congrats and welcoming note. Now to find out how to use these admin powers... Grutness|hello? 05:46, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Interesting...

 * http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/thcur.pdf is the schedule for the Rockaway Park Shuttle. I like how they still label it the H, if only in the file name. --SPUI (talk) 03:01, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Just thought I'd say a quick thanks for promoting me, and leaving the links on my talk page. Rje 04:56, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

BMT number to letter mapping
I'm still a bit confused with 14/15 and J/K. 14 went out on the Jamaica Line, turning back before the end, with some trains serving the Canarsie Line. 15 went to the end of the Jamaica Line.

Now in 1967, the 14 Canarsie service became the JJ, but so did service to the end of the Jamaica Line (15). RJ and QJ also went out to the end of the Jamaica Line.

By 1968, JJ to Canarsie was gone, and new KK service used Chrystie Street to the end of the Jamaica Line. RJ was gone.

So it appears that 14 became JJ, and 15 became KK. Is this correct? Was there even a mapping that makes sense? --SPUI (talk) 07:22, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Do you mind writing K (New York City Subway service), including all the BMT 14 service? As there's a one-to-one mapping (albeit a bit stretched in this case), it makes sense to write about the BMT services in the same articles as the letters (but obviously referring to them by their numbers). To this end, I've created redirects like BMT 15 to the J.

Also, do you know when the 15/JJ started serving Canarsie? --SPUI (talk) 08:41, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Killian
As you have recently demonstrated interest in this article, please see Talk:Killian_documents. Wolfman 18:48, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

IND Second System
I took advantage of the outage to finish the map for this article. --SPUI (talk) 03:38, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)