User talk:Ceedjee~enwiki/archives

Here are archived the main comments of my talk page.

Thanks for the link
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner on Elpeleg. So now I'm sure it's not the rigorously sourced work of a born again academic, but rather polemic starting with a conclusion and working backwards with some pseudo-academia thrown in. For example, notice the way he haphazardly jumps back and forth chronologically just to build the argument. I'm just not impressed. -- Kendrick7talk 18:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Husseini and 1920 riots
Shalom Ravpapa. Thank you for the information. That helps me much and should be enough for my purpose. I didn't understand why other protagonists action was detailled in the scholars book I have but not the one of the most (un)famous of the protagonists. In more sentenced to 10 years emprisonment. Ceedjee (talk) 20:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * Thank you again for the info.
 * E. Elat (Haj Amin el Husseini, Ex Mufti of Jerusalem (Tel Aviv 1968)), Hussayni was convicted by a secret military court of violation of paragraphs 32, 57, and 63 of the Ottoman code - all of which have to do with incitement to riot. Proceedings of the hearings - which were held with Hussayni himself in absentia - were never published..
 * I found that Philip Mattar claims that nothing indicates that he had incited people to violence and Rashid Khalidi, in the Iron Cage, talks about "alleged" accusations...
 * I cannot find any reference of Elat on the internet. What is his full name ? Who is he ? Do you have his book ? Does he explain how he got "information" that were never published ?
 * Thank you ! Ceedjee (talk) 20:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * nb: could you answer me here on wp:fr ? Thank you ! Ceedjee (talk) 20:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am unable to add my response to your French userpage because it is "semiprotegee". So I am responding here and on your English userpage, hoping that you will see the response. E Elat is Eliahu Elath, born Eliahu Epstein. He was an Israeli diplomat and historian, who also served for six years as president of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. The book was published in Hebrew. You can read a brief biography of him at http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD71538F931A15755C0A966958260

Elat, like Perlman, was involved in the intelligence services of the Yishuv prior to statehood, and was consequently privy to a lot of classified information. That information is today available to scholars who want to go squirreling through the archives of the Haganah or of British intelligence. Both archives are today open for scholarly research, though the bureaucracy for getting at them is still pretty daunting. I don't see much reason to do this, since the material of interest has already been documented in books like Elat's, Pearlman's and Eliphelet's.

As for Mattar's contention, it is pretty incredulous - I think there is plenty of published documentation - reports in the newspaper Falastin, reports in the London Times and the NYT - that suggest the opposite. But in any case, Mattar's claim doesn't contradict Elat's - it simply means that in Mattar's opinion, the Mufti was framed.

Since my brief foray into the Mufti morass, I have returned all my library books on the subject, and have taken all the mufti pages off my watchlist. The article - as it currently stands and as it is clearly headed - is so full of polemic and apologetics, that it is becoming virtually unintelligible. Anyone looking for information on the Mufti is likely to read the first couple of paragraphs and then search on for more cogent sources of information. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

article discussion
hi. did you mean to write just now that Zeq considers MFA a good soruce? Or did you mean that he does NOT consider the MFA a good source? You wrote that he does consider them a good source, but i think you wrote that by accident. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

thank you
right now I don't have time to work on it but it is an important subject so I hope you can start working on it. Zeq (talk) 18:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: IPCOLL
Really, thanks. I was totally unaware of ‘Israel identity crisis’ as a 'defined,' searchable topic. I had developed my own conception of it from my experience, knowledge and beliefs (POV) concerning the I-P conflict, years ago. I guess that is why I found it so insightful, and why I posted it at IPCOLL. That was not what I was searching for, however, so I will chaulk it up to serendipity and move on.

On another subject, and the reason why I am posting this to your page was your answer to the last question you posed. Between the time I made my quickie reply and then came back to actually comprehend your post, the independent thoughts going through my mind, were Adam and Eve and Fuerlicht’s book, The Fate of the Jews – A people torn between Israeli power and Jewish ethics. Given that, I believe we have some very similar core values about NPOV. This is good to know as time passes and we find ourselves together in other articles.

But since you do know about it, do you know of any learned sources (RS) that discuss this crisis in the American context? There, it is very different. In America, there is no debate in the open press; much accessable info tends to be from less-than-RSs. Regards, CasualObserver&#39;48 (talk) 05:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I do not consider that one funny; but it is only because, as an American, it is my taxes and our elected officials that have allowed such a thing to happen. What has happened is a corruption of real, true American 'national interests' for the sake of domestic political considerations.  That some Israelis/Jews might think it funny, makes me think that they really have little respect for what Uncle Sam has done for the last 60 years, and little consideration that this arrangement is susposed to be a two-way street.  That, for me, is a too 'chosen' approach.
 * My favorite humor in this regard (and closer to my historical perspective) is from Golda Meir, |here.
 * "Let me tell you something that we Israelis have against Moses. He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil."


 * With that as one of many growing realities, my hope is that more people will see that a more ethical, less 'chosen' and less powerful modus operandi is better for their survival in the long run. That they might not make that decision, is my biggest fear.  Regards, CasualObserver&#39;48 (talk) 10:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Tantura
Sorry to be annoying, but could you tell me if you believe that the POV tag could be removed now, since the claim of a massacre has been well-referenced and the counter response to the claim has also been presented and well-referenced. The PR website does not induce any controversy with presenting Tantura's Canaanite and Roman names nor does it cause controversy when it states that the refugees settled in Fureidis and the Triangle after they left the town. They cite these claims in their bibliography section. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'm glad everything worked out. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion on Alleged statement by Ariel Sharon to Ouze Merham
I made this suggestion to ChrisO. Noroton (talk) 19:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good topic
Historiography of the History of Zionism, by Yoav Gelber, sounds exactly like the book that I would hope for. Would you consider it a discussion of 'moving goal-posts' during Zionism's history, which Jay has trouble with? What are the various 'circumstances' they discuss for different tactics. Seeing that I am also stuck with books, instead of blue hyperlinks, and tend to believe them more, what I generally have done is to put longer block quotes on the talk pages to stir interest and allow discussion, before they go in the article. That is the way I try to do it, anyway. That way no one can say they weren't aware. Often these quotes, or portions, are thus available to all, and tend to find their way in other articles. CasualObserver&#39;48 (talk) 07:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * I made a little mistake. Title is History of Zionist Historiography but this is not a book but an article in a book. And I started reading the article last evening. That book seems extremally interesting, gathering different historians around the debate of New Historiography.
 * >Would you consider it a discussion of 'moving goal-posts' during Zionism's history
 * Well. I am not sure to understand : 'moving goal-posts' ? I have just started the article but I think Gelber shows that the way Zionism is pictured depends much on the time it is pictured and the historians who pictures this.
 * >What are the various 'circumstances' they discuss for different tactics ?
 * "tactics"... I think not.
 * He just explains there exist numerous "points of view" on the same issue, but he doesn't refer to "one brain" that would change tactics but rather to numerous historians/actors, who see Zionism a different way, according to their own feeling/hope/bias...
 * >Often these quotes, or portions, are thus available to all, and tend to find their way in other articles.
 * I lost any trust in wikipedia ability to write articles on these issues.
 * But I am here because it helps me to "dig" some issues. wikipedia is (also) a nice place to find new information or analysis we are not aware of.
 * Rgds, Ceedjee (talk) 08:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

JL meditation talk
Hi. I am not sure if I understood you correctly. Did you mean that France differs also from the Nordic countries in this respect? I do agree with your cultural point, and I must say I was not aware of the climate in France. Anyway, I don't think France should be generalized to count for europe here. I have searched in vain, but I actually do believe that it has been used uncontroversially even by ministers here in Norway, but I am starting to think that my memory may betray me. I'll see if I find it, but even if I do find it, it would be inadmissable OR since usage is not a RS only comments on usage. cheers! pertn (talk) 08:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Zionism tag
The problem is, it's his pointy way of disfiguring the article; he's basically saying that the article will remain tagged ad infinitum, until everyone agrees with him. This is an abuse of the tagging system, which is intended to alert readers to current and real issues, not the same rhetorical questions repeated again and again, regardless of the number of times they have been answered. Jayjg (talk) 22:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Note
I tend to think that there was a broken phone effect regarding my Nishidani complaint. You can explore my concerns first hand here: User_talk:PhilKnight.

With respect,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  07:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC) fix wikilink 07:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Mosley
I don't see the links to those sources; can you point them out please? Jayjg (talk) 23:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I looked again, but I couldn't find it. I must be missing something. Could you explain exactly what sentences I will find them in, or which specific section? Jayjg (talk) 00:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. I think it's a pretty distasteful link, but I'm not sure there's any policy against it. Jayjg (talk) 00:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be hard to get any such policy approved, I think, as there exists on en-wiki a clique of zealots who view restoring links to useless, disgusting, hate-filled, and/or otherwise unsavory sites as a game they must win, in order to pursue some petty political agenda. Jayjg (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

thanks ceedjee
Thanks for your notes ceedjee. I have been busy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents/Wikilobby_campaign#.7B.7Buser.7CDajudem.7D.7D as it looks like I may well get banned. rots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dajudem (talk • contribs) 22:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
You are very generous. The "causes" page does need a thorough rewrite. I gave up on it long ago. --Ian Pitchford (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Books of possible interest
After your suggestion about whether and how to present my translation of a footnote in the al-Huseyni article, for which many thanks, I came to your user page, and was very impressed by the list of books you have on the Arab–Israeli conflict and Israel.

May I recommend three more that I think may interest you, if you haven’t already heard of them?

A Drive to Israel: An Egyptian Meets His Neighbors by Ali Salem, the Egyptian actor and writer who drove to Israel in 1994, spent three weeks there and wrote this book, which became a bestseller in Egypt and (in translation) in Israel. ISBN 9652240508. The follow-up is described in: http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/alsalem.htm "Ali Salem: Egyptian Writer Shunned for His Views on Israel"

City of Oranges: Arabs and Jews in Jaffa by Adam LeBor. ISBN 9780747586029. The reviews (using such words as "magnificent", "remarkable", "outstanding") on the paperback copy I bought, after reading the hardback from a library, confirm my own impression: utterly, scrupulously, balanced on the hopes and fears of, and the injustices perpetrated by, and suffered by, both sides. His bibliography contains many of the books in your list.

The People on the Street: A Writer's View of Israel by Linda Grant, whose review of LeBor's book is quoted on its (LeBor's book's) cover. As the blurb says,"[an] exploration of the inner dynamics of Israelis – not the government and its policies, but the people themselves, in all their variety…." ISBN 9781844082544. CWO (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

List of designated terrorist organisations
As requested, I have provided a source related to Lehi with regard to religious aims. I have not amended the article or reversed/reverted as I wanted to allow my source to be evaluated by both yourself and any others interested in this topic, Dean Armond 17:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Deir Yassin massacre
You may silence us, but the blood of the innocents is not quite so easy to ignore, is it. -WikiSkeptic (talk) 21:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You were good to me, so I feel WikiSkeptic that there is goodness in you. What you are doing above is making this editor into the person whose directly responsible for the above. But how can that be? He was only 38 years old at that time. Also, read his page - it seems like you are preaching to the converted? If you and he cannot get along, how can you expect whole nations to do so? --Ludvikus (talk) 18:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Response
I'm glad you contacted me. I've glanced at you User page - it's quite interesting. I'll definitely come back to study it more carefully later. --Ludvikus (talk) 18:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Tower of Babel
If you know what I mean. --Ludvikus (talk) 18:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

On The Jewish Question
The above might interest you. Peace. --Ludvikus (talk) 18:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions
I am interested in what you have to say. I'm trying to find out when scholars/authors 1st started to use the expression Revisionist Zionism. --Ludvikus (talk) 09:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am quite amazed by the fact that that the older texts do not use this exact phrase. --Ludvikus (talk) 09:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The Palestine Post, April 16, 1933, titles an article : Split among the Revisionist Zionists.
 * The article start by "The differences of opinion between the Revisionist Zionist Executive and their charmain Mr Jabotinksy have now lead to a definite cleavage".
 * Regards, Ceedjee (talk) 10:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Ghetto benches
I wonder what you think of the above. --Ludvikus (talk) 12:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Check out particularly:
 * (1) their English language usage.
 * (2) the alleged correlation between the 1st paragraph and the first footnote/reference: which book are they talking about and exactly what does it say? --Ludvikus (talk) 12:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I don't understand what you expect from me...
 * My level in English is not very good and I am not sure to understand what to check exactly in the 1st paragraph... Do you refer to the ADL's article ? Ceedjee (talk) 13:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought that article might interest you. Anyway, what is you main language, may I ask? --Ludvikus (talk) 13:32, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It is French. See -> fr:user:ceedjee Ceedjee (talk) 14:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Pierre-André Taguieff
Since you are French you might be interested in the above. Do you know that he is one of the world's great living authorities on the Protocols of Zion. But my French is too weak to understand him. It would be wonderful if you could contribute to this Article about this living French scholar. --Ludvikus (talk) 15:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * I know him. I will take a look but I don' have much material concerning him.
 * Note I am not a French... I speak French ! I am a Belgian. Ceedjee (talk) 17:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

So here's material for you (--Ludvikus (talk) 17:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)):
 * External links
 * Pierre-André Taguieff on the new "anti-Zionism"
 * About Pierre-André Taguieff : The Force of Prejudice. On Racism and Its Doubles
 * Rethinking anti-Racism by Pierre-André Taguieff
 * "The Illuminati fair : Esotericism, Plot Theory, Extremism"


 * Thank you.
 * I will see what I can do about this.
 * Ceedjee (talk) 20:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)