User talk:Celticpunk

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-- Kirill Lokshin 02:29, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Brian Boru and all that
Hello Celticpunk. Sorry, but like a great many people, you are wrong on this point. Brian never united the island politically. All he did was establish himself as the most powerful king on the island and establish the basis for the island being united politically. That basis was badly shaken in 1014, swept away in 1022 on the death of Mael Sechnaill II, and though energeticlly fought for by the likes of Diarmait mac Mail na mBo, Tairrdelbach mac Ruaidri Ua Conchobair and indeed his Ua Brian descendants, was never to fully become a reality.

And Brian did not command the loyalty of every noble clan and province in the nation ... were that it were so. Why else do you think Clontarf was fought in the first place? Remember, it was primeraly a war between Munster and Leinster because Leinster (quite rightly) refused to pay the outragous borumna or tribute that Brian demanded. The Vikings merely fought as mercenerys on both sides or as partys looking after their own interests (such as the King of Dublin).

It is indicitive just how little loyalty Brian commanded if you look at those who accompanied him to Clontarf on the Irish side: "...Mael Sechnaill son of Domnall, king of Temair ... Mothla son of Domnall son of Faelán, king of the Déisi Muman; Eochu son of Dúnadach and Niall ua Cuinn and Ceinnéitig's son, —Brian's three companions; two kings of Uí Maine, Ua Cellaig . . . . . . . ., and Mael Ruanaid ua hEidin, king of Aidne, and Géibennach ua Dubagáin, king of Fernmag, and Mac Bethad son of Muiredach Claen, king of Ciarraige Luachra and Domnall son of Diarmait, king of Corcu Baiscinn, and Scannlán son of Cathal, king of Eóganacht of Loch Léin,"

Mael Sechnaill and Mothla mac Domnall were kings who had being forced into submission and had no reason to love Brian (Mael Sechnaill prudently refused to commit his forces untill well into the battle) while Tadhg Ua Ceallaigh and Maelruanaidh na Paidre Ua hEidhin were minor kings of two kingdoms long since reduced to vassal status. They were there because two of Brian's wives were of their respective dynastys. Also because they relied on Brian to keep the Ua Conchobhair from re-establishing their overlordship upon them.

The kings of Fernmag, Ciarraige Luachra, Corcu Baiscinn and Eoganacht Loch Lein were similarly small kings of reduced kingdoms, and none of them were politically or military important in their own right.

Despite what you say, Brian did not command the loyalty of important allies such as the Kings of Osraige, Aileach, Ulaidh (Ulster), Airgialla, Brefine or Connacht. In fact he had no important Irish allies at all beside the King of Meath, who hated him!

Now, as to your latter points:

1 - I take grave issue with you stateing that Ireland was annexed to England! Loose use of language, and worse, you make it sound like we gave up without a fight. And when exactly did this event take place?

2 - I agree totally with point A.

3 - B: Except that much of Ulster Protestant community never and still does not see itself as part of the Irish nation; they veiw themselves (correctly) as part of the British nation. You'll have to explain this to me, and then to them!

I'm not angry with you, just sad that so few people seem interested in our history, and those who do have such a terrible understanding of it. Please get back to me as you seem like someone who is genuinely intersted and can have a discussion not an argument. Cheers, and thanks! Fergananim 18:54, 10 September 2005 (UTC)