User talk:Celtus/Archive 2008 July

Manrent
Hi Celtus, Thanks for the extra info on manrent. I have problems with your statement "The earliest bond of manrent recorded is from January 1442, between Alexander MacDonald, earl of Ross and Hugh Fraser of Lovat.". This is contradicted later in the article with a reference to a bond of manrent between for Ogston of that Ilk and Lord Forbes in 1426. I think terms such as "The earliest bond of manrent recorded" should be avoided at this stage. however it would be good if you could include this Manrent in the list, (chronologically set by date) with a few notes on this bond if possible. Note: the second name on the list is usually the party signing the manrent, the first, the party receiving (the obvious exceptions to this are the "friendship manrents".). Yours, Czar Brodie (talk) 15:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * hi. Thanks for your reply. Fascinating stuff. I think what the article is referring to is the first known bond to use the term "manrent". The second paragraph in your link refers to 19 instances of bonds using the term (Medieval Latin) rentinencia prior to 1442. Prior to 1442 most "legal" document would be written in "latin". (This makes me realize that mention should perhaps be given to the term manrent as such); also re paragraph 2 of your ref, mention is also given to the common practice in Scotland of destroying documents.
 * Re sources on Forbes manrent, I know of an excellent source for Forbes documents: the book "The House of Forbes" Aberdeen: Printed for the Third Spalding Club, 1937. I'll see if I can find a a copy on the net or in a library.
 * There is another point that the article should address and I find curiously little documentation on: How were these manrents enforced? i.e. What would happen if a manrent was not honored and are there any instances of this. If the Courts were involved this would in fact legitimize the clan conflicts (which I always thought acted outside the law). This would be very important information both for the articles on manrent as well as the article about clans. Have you seem references that could point me in the right direction here? Czar Brodie (talk) 16:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * just reedited the beginning of manrent. Your opinion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Czar Brodie (talk • contribs) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

"advertising slogan"
I reverted your change to Template:Infobox Radio Station to the slogan label. I'm not totally opposed to it but do have some concerns and would like to discuss it a bit before going with that change.. There is a section on the talk page for discussion. Thanks, --Rtphokie (talk) 11:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep. No probs. I messed up my edit.--Celtus (talk) 07:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Clan Mackinnon info box
If the Wikipedia history for Clan MacKinnon is correct, you removed the "info box". I did not add this but have found it quite informative. I'd like to see it re-added but wanted to understand your logic. Thanks for the other work.

--Bryan MacKinnon (talk) 12:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh probably. I just didn't think it was needed. The article isn't very long, and the box only re-lists info that is in the body of the article. I thought it wasted space where an image could be placed. Its basically just the clan profile section without any explanations or detail.--Celtus (talk) 05:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Image:Clan Ramsay (Plant Badge).png
I don't understand what you're getting at - this can't be reproduced because even if we took a photo of whatever plant that is, it won't be the badge of the Clan in question. To illustrate it more clearly to you, if a hypothetical country used a rose as its flag, you couldn't possibly tag the image as reproducible by taking a photo of a rose. It contains an image representation of a plant, but it is not used to illustrate the plant in question. enochlau (talk) 12:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you are trying to say. And i also noticed you are an administrator, so its weird you don't seem to be familiar with the very first point in the non-free content criteria. Read it, starting at #1 No free equivalent -- "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose". So now we need to determine if a free image of this plant exists, or that a free image of this plant cannot possibly exist. If you are unsure what a plant badge (clan badge) is take a look at clan badge. A clan badge is nothing more than a sprig of a specific plant worn in a bonnet, upon clan members breast, or hoisted upon a pole as a standard. It is not a logo, it is not a flag. It is not pretty little illustration. It is a plant. Notice the image in question is a plant and nothing more. Also, the image seems to be a copyvio form this website . Do you think its possible, just possible a better, free image could be found of a plant?--Celtus (talk) 05:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Blue harebell, aka Campanula rotundifolia. See also for other free images of this plant.--Celtus (talk) 05:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how you are missing the point here. The image is a drawn representation of a flower, not a photograph of a flower. As such it is not replaceable. I have declined your speedy deletion, and tagged the image as missing a source and fair use rationale. Kevin (talk) 06:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * A clan badge is not a specific drawing. It is not a specific image. It is not created with a certain formula. There is not rule saying it must conform to a certain criteria. A clan badge is only a plant which is worn. To pretend that a non-free image of a plant cannot be reasonably replaced with a free one is ridiculous. No?--Celtus (talk) 06:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Celtus is correct; a clan badge is a plant, not a fixed image or symbol. The best way to illustrate a "badge" would be to illustrate the plant. The best way to illustrate a plant would be a photo of the plant in question. The best photo to use would be one that does not infringe copyright. Yours, Czar Brodie (talk) 20:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Clan Badge DYK
Hi Celtus, I was wondering if you could add an inline citation to the proposed WP:DYK fact for clan badge, which is currently "... that members of Scottish clans wear a sprig of a particular plant, known as a clan badge, to identify their affiliation?" While it wouldn't normally need an inline citation since it's not controversial, one of the rules of qualifying for DYK is that the hook must have an inline citation in the article. So, if you can fix it up we can hopefully get it on the front page. It's such a great article, I'd hate to see it not get on just for a technicality. If you can add one, just mention below its entry on the template talk page that the citation's in and that the article should be good to go. Thanks! Vickser (talk) 05:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Clan Crests
Celtus, I noticed your listing clan crests and thought you would be the best person for guidance. Thinking that it would be goo to have drawings of clan crests on all the clan pages I contacted scotclans.com with the following email:


 * hello, I read:


 * "The clan crest artwork is copyright of ScotClans and may not be reproduced without our permission. We grant free permission for the use of this crest for non commercial purposes only, we can also supply a high res version on other coloured backhround"


 * I would be grateful for clarification on the copyright. I was thinking of using the crests of the various Clan Pages at wikipedia.org


 * The clan crests would be located on the various clan pages that led off from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_clan


 * If you can confirm that permission would be grated, which license should I upload the Images on?


 * Note, the images that interest me are those in black and white or shades of Grey. We are trying to be correct in our approach to crests, and sources indicate that it is not correct to use the images in colour. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_crest_badge
 * Your hopefully,

I received the following reply:


 * We do not mind images being used on Wikipedia as long as they are linked back to ScotClans. Unfortunately Wikipedia can cause us problems as many people have grabbed text from the site for Wikipedia (which we don't mind as such - but then other users have grabbed the text from Wikipedia and infringed our copyright, and effected the search visibility of our page since Wikipedia is a higher page-rank.


 * With regard to the colour reproduction of crests it is perfectly acceptable to reproduce crests in colour as the all crest have a proper heraldic description which will always include the colours to be used.


 * Regards

With the above reply in mind, do you think I can proceed, and if so, how should I upload the files (type of copyright template etc)? Yours, Czar Brodie (talk) 20:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Brilliant. I think the badges, tartans and coats of arms are what first grabs the attention of people who read up on their clan. I agree with you that the black and white images are preferable. From the Lyon Court info leaflet: "Crest Badges are for wear by the clansmen, and as they made of silver or white metal they should never be illustrated on paper or other materials in colour, other than white or silver. Line drawings should be printed in monochrome". Another thing is the watermark they have on their coloured images. There's a wiki template that says watermarks are discouraged here: Template:Imagewatermark. Have you read this page on asking permission: Requesting copyright permission? They must allow commercial reproduction and derivative works - it is not just about allowing wikipedia to use an image (see below).


 * Unfortunately I do not think they will go as far as to allow commercial reproduction and derivative works, so I have to consider that my request was for naught.Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Image guidelines: Image copyright tags - "For an image to be considered "free" under Wikipedia's Image use policy, the license must permit both commercial reuse and derivative works." If Scotclans allows this, then we are all set, and don't have to worry about anything. But, i doubt Scotclans will allow this, their website says "non commercial purposes only". So, these images will likely fall under the fair use policy.


 * I did ask what kind of license should I upload on but did not receive a clear reply.Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Fair use policy: Non-free content - "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose." But it is possible that someone could create free image of crest badges. Look on the Wiki Commons here, i don't really like them artistically but it is a fact a few exist. That, i think, means we can't use un-free crest badges, since free ones are shown to exist. I don't see how anyone can logically dispute that. What do you think?


 * it is clear that if the image is on Wiki Commons another can not be used on "Non-free content". The question here is: Can the clan crests that are not on Wiki Commons be used? Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think what the admins above were getting at, about the plant badge, was that they thought that that particular image was actually the plant badge. Like an official logo or something. And so that particular image could not produced freely, because a derivative wouldn't be exactly the same. I think that is their reasoning. They are wrong about the plant badges, but i think i understand what they were getting at...


 * Yes, I posted a message about this and got a short reply, see talk. His reference page has some interesting cases. Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe reasoning like that could be used for crest badges found on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs website. Because the crest badges on that website are endorsed by the standing council.


 * Agreed. But with reference to "endorsed by the standing council" I will fill you in on a few points regarding the Standing Council, see below. Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Gaelic Themes is a company which sells crest badges, the ones they sell as badges are the same illustrated on the council website. Look at this: "We have the exclusive rights to the artwork depicted in the latest clan encyclopaedia by Way and Squire and approved by the clan chiefs and the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs" and at the bottom right corner: "Approved Manufacturer of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs". If they are approved by the council, then they must be deemed as official or correct by the association, right? We could use these images under fair use because we are using these specific images which are endorsed by the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs. This would satisfy the "non free equivalent criteria" because there cannot be a free alternative to these specific images. What do you think? That would work, i'd like to try using those. They are standardised, black and white, and are endorsed by a body which represents the clan chiefs.--Celtus (talk) 17:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Your reasoning seems correct, one point of note, the standing council is not the author or owner of the images. I questioned this matter during a meting and was informed that the work is Romily Squire's, as artist, and the council has no authority over the matter. This would in fact mean that I, as Brodie, do not have any rights over the Brodie clan crest. An odd state of affairs. Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Re the Standing Council. Firstly I was informed that several Chief's, being dissatisfied, have withdrawn from the council (not sure who); this would mean that the council does not represent all the chiefs, even though they are all listed. Secondly, in an annual general meeting, I raised the question of the use of the crest and arms by the council in providing use for official merchandise, stating that I did not give my permission to do this; a lively debate followed and it was discovered that none of the chiefs had given permission for this; one chief has since contacted me to inform that they consider them self to be the sole decider of what are the official arms, crest and be the only authority as to who can use these for the purpose of marketing, not the council. My own position is that the council should take a stand against this (marketing), as it is not in the spirit of clans, who are after all family. I think that images of crests, arms (with the name of the chief below), should be made readily available to clansmen for free, in effect countering the dubious marketing of these. I feel that if we let the matter run as is, and get involved in this trade, a certain amount of cynicism will develop over time, ultimately being nonconstructive to the future of clans. Thirdly, the web site; This site was provided free of charge to the council by Viking technologies. Chiefs were asked to write short summaries of their clans to correct the old versions. This they did, only to find that these were not incorporated. It took me several emails and registered letters to finally get the Brodie history correct, then later, the Brodie history was suddenly reverted to the old (and very inaccurate version). I know of several chiefs who were very frustrated with this. Viking technologies then stated that it could no longer keep running the site for free. The site then cost the council approximately an extraordinary £2000 a year. I was very concerned with this, going through the accounts I noticed that the figures did not add up, the council would soon get in debt. I was assured by the board that more money would be generated by the council and permit the web sites costs, but from which source, I do not know (probably in the referred marketing). So as you see nothing is that simple. Yours Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow. So not all actions by the council actually have the endorsement of the member chiefs. I'm sorry for my assumptions about the council, the images and info on the website. It is unsettling that decisions, especially when it comes to money, would be made without consulting all the chiefs. I do think it is odd that clan chiefs do not have ultimate control of heraldic images on a website which is suppose to represent them. Maybe almost the last place you'd think a clan chief would not have control over his own heraldic property. So, it seems the crest badges on the council website are really no more 'endorsed' than any other image on the net?


 * I'm going to ask a question at Media copyright questions about using non-free images where up until now no free alternatives have been found. Here's my post: Media_copyright_questions.--Celtus (talk) 10:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

MacKintosh to Mackintosh...?
Celtus, I appreciate and frankly envy your knowledge of Scotland and the clans, but the 'K' being capitalized is much more frequent than I believe you realized, like in my own name. Plus, if the 'K' is lowered then why is the 'I' not raised? ie:MackIntosh, MacIntosh, McIntosh. MacPherson still appears correct as well as MacAlister, MacBain, MacDonald, etc. This may seem trivial to you sir, but if it were your name you may see it differently. MacKintosh appearing to be singled out in this is not appreciated. This message was not written with venom but rather objection.

Myself as well as other MacKintoshes would appreciate the adjustment back.

Thank you in advance. Jef MacKintosh —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffrey MacKintosh (talk • contribs) 05:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Jef. It doesn't seem trivial (i'm a Mac too, with an upper-case letter). I'd think that maybe most MacKintoshes might spell their name with an upper-case K. I proposed the change to a lower-case because that is the way the clan name is commonly spelt on related websites and published books. Look at the society pages: Clan Mackintosh of North America, Clan Mackintosh Society Australia Inc. The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs website lists it as Clan Mackintosh. The Burkes Peerage website lists the chief as Chief of Clan Mackintosh. If you search for "Clan MacKintosh" in a google book search here:, you can see that most of the references to the clan are with lower-case letters as well. The MacKintoshes aren't singled out, the Macfies, MacKenzies and MacPhersons are like that too. A google book search will show these clans are commonly (though not always) spelt with lower-case letters. I don't know why some clans are like this and others aren't, though. Maybe it has to do with the how the chief's spell their name. Or how the clan name was recorded at some point in time.--Celtus (talk) 07:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)