User talk:Celtus/Archive 2009 March

William II de Haya and Clan Hay origin of the Clan
Hello Celtus, contacting you over Clan Hay origin of the Clan which I understand was deleted. I have a reference to your part in this from User talk:Inver471ness. I was wondering if you could give me information as to why the article was deleted. My concern is that this article may have been rehashed under a different name: William II de Haya. I have suggested at User talk:Inver471ness that William II de Haya is not notable in itself and is more suited to being moved to Clan Hay, however I now notice the past history, and wondered if I'm not going against some past decision in this matter. Your opinion would also be welcome. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 11:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Brodie. I can hardly remember, but i think Inver471ness himself requested that particular article to be deleted. I noticed this and slapped on a deletion template to help the process. It seems that at the time he was new to Wikipedia and thought he was editing the Clan Hay article. I don't think it was a notability issue then. I agree that the William article, as it is, could exist solely within the clan article. It looks like it is really about a paragraph in length. Though maybe it could be fleshed out and could stand on its own if more real information could be found? I don't think every Mediaeval landowner requires a Wikipedia article though.--Celtus (talk) 07:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Noted. I've place a merger proposal on the pages. will leave for a couple of months and see the opinions. Yours, Czar Brodie (talk) 20:54, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Clan Chief
I am working on a new headline for Clan Chiefs. Still in draft mode at User:Czar Brodie/sandbox 5. I see that you were one of the original contributors, and may have a few words of helpful wisdom. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 03:35, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The blurb i added was based on what i'd read in the Adam & Innes of Learney book (published in the 70s). Actually, other than that book and a few other things i'm not very familiar with this. So i'm interested but not nearly as knowledgeable and familiar with this subject as you are. The site you reference is quite critical of Innes of Learney and what he thought of the powers of the Lord Lyon. The Lyon Court website has a page on 'the search for clan chiefs' which could be useful. I think we could have be a small blurb included, or maybe a stub on clan commanders which are appointed by Lyon.--Celtus (talk) 06:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I knew I could rely on you for advise here. The “site you reference is quite critical of Innes of Learney”, is a poignant point. I see that it is an opinion taken from Maclean of Ardgour v. Maclean. I’ll see if I can rely more on the actual opinion at http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/lyondocs.htm#Maclean%20of%20Ardgour as this lists the text without third party interpretation. I’ll see if I can balance the contradictions in a neutral way (eg Lord lyon says such, Lord Mackay such and such), and where possible, find middle ground.


 * Good point on the on clan commanders which are appointed by Lyon, I’ll see if I can list a few examples here.


 * Editors working on Clan Fraser may have info, I’ll search through to see which ones were instrumental in the edits on the chief. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 12:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * reading the wording carefully at http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/241.html it appears that the text does not directly contradict the judgment from the Supreme Court. However it is misleading. The confusing part appears to be that the Lyon's office does nothing to distinguish between Chief as Chief of Clan and as Chief of Name and Arms. The Lyon has authority over the latter but not the former. While a Chief of Clan and Chief of Name and Arms are often the same person, the two are not the same thing. I checked Chief of Name and Arms and confirmed it is a heraldic term, and as such is not exclusive to Scotland. While my original reading interpreted the Lyon being able to appoint a commander (this would very much contradict the Supreme court's opinion where the power over a clan lies solely with the clan), careful examination of the wording does not actually say "the Lord Lyon can appoint a commander". Hmmm....this is not going to be easy. yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 05:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd forgotten about the Fraser articles and the two chiefs (there's also this one Chiefs of Clan Fraser). The Fraser case is a good illustration of the differences you described and also of the vagueness.--Celtus (talk) 08:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Dùn Anlaimh
Shubinator (talk) 01:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Stac Dhomnuill Chaim
Shubinator (talk) 20:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

John Norman, Lord Mayor of London (1453)
Just a quick note on John Norman, Lord Mayor of London (1453), which was one of those pages I frequently come across at new pages where I can see the potential for a useful article, but normally don't have the time or resources to do more with the article than tag and categorize and hope that someone develops the article. Unfortunately, they more often end up descending into the bowels of Wikipedia so seeing one developed into a good article so quickly cheered me up. Great job and cheers. FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 19:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. For some reason i thought it was kinda fun working on it.--Celtus (talk) 07:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fun is an acceptable reason :) FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 20:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)