User talk:Ceoil

Animals underfoot
Hi, saw this and immediately thought of you and that tomb  Ϣere  Spiel  Chequers  08:21, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, in wood and he died in 1285, thats very early! Very tempted to divert to researching the Pitchford Estate! Ceoil (talk) 00:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thought you might like that, I've categorised a huge number of photos from English churches on Commons, and this struck me as an unusual survival of prereformation woodcarving  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  11:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Its way earlier than what I've been reading about, and interesting in that its so formative for later styles (the niches are already in place). That the wood has survived for 700 odd years is really something. Ceoil (talk) 11:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I've just looked it up in Pevsner's book on Shropshire, two short mentions, "well preserved" "7' long" and one of two late 13th century oaken effigies in the county. Definitely something to come back to after your celtic thing. Not sure whether we should be looking at an article on that monument or the general topic of Oaken effigies from medieval England. the other 13th century one in Shropshire is at Berrington, but we don't currently have any internal shots of the  geograph has some of the really interesting font but not the effigy. There's also a 14th century effigy at St Edith's which I suspect is File:St Edith, Eaton - Effigy - geograph.org.uk - 2246215.jpg (no dog or lion underfoot and the bier looks Victorian to me).  Ϣere  Spiel  Chequers  11:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * well now you have me hooked. The simplicity of the St Edith tomb and that little is known...line and sinker. Ceoil (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

This takes me back... I remember being terrified by the tomb of The Wolf of Badenoch when taken to Dunkeld Cathedral as a small child. Not because he was a scary person (he was) but because they turned him into stone along with his pet dog which they put by his feet.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  14:26, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice Jim, into my top 20 the charmingly named tomb of The Wolf of Badenoc goes. I would have been terrified also, in fact...[gulp!!] Ceoil (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Excuse me for butting in, but there is certainly something that can be written here. I think a key piece of research here is a 1909 paper by Alfred Cooper Fryer in Archaeologia, on "Wooden Monumental Effigies in England and Wales". And a revised version of that paper from 1924. More recently, there is a nice doctoral dissertation (Proefschrift) on "Early Secular Effigies in England" from the Thirteenth Century here:  That includes a list of 213 examples, with images, several of which are both early with either effigy or tomb/box or both in wood. We have images of most (see below), many look to be in surprisingly good condition given their age. Mostly lions at their feet, I think, not dogs. Only three have the original wooden box - Pitchford, Westminster, and Salisbury. I've not included Pitchford again below, and we don't seem to have images for two in St Mary's, Woodford, Northamptonshire.

The tomb of William de Valence clearly shows the early use of blank arcades as decoration, that could be filled in by "weepers" in later examples. See the discussion on p.29. We don't have a good image of the extraordinary canopied tomb of Aymer de Valence at Westminster, which is said to be the earliest example of "weepers" in England. Theramin (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I hope to take my camera to the Abbey this year and I'll put Aymer on my list, but I think it might be too close to the High Altar. There has to be a reason why we don't have any photos of that specific monument considering how much we have from the Abbey. The lion v dog issue does remind me of the debate about the unsympathetic restoration of that part of Phillipe de Pot's monument.  Ϣere  Spiel  Chequers  08:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the Wolf of Badenoch's "dog" it does appear to have a mane...  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  09:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Have made a start on expanding Pitchford based on sources provided by Theramin, but there is a lot more would like to dig into. Excellent research as always. Ceoil (talk) 21:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome. Impressed with your find of the 1924 updated version of the Fryer article at archive.com. Happy editing. Theramin (talk) 00:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks but as usual am following your lead. I'm trying to think of an umbrella article to bring these together, but coming up with naught. Tomb Sculptures from the Court of Burgundy is obvious and catchy for the other side, but for English examples, dunno. Have always been an anglophile and am besotted by the images you provided, but don't want to get drawn into adding burial foot-notes to the bios of minor knights that nobody will ever read. Ceoil (talk) 00:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Er, something like Wooden tomb effigies in medieval England? Theramin (talk) 00:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Ceoil, you and I have both worked on Tomb effigy, which could do with plenty of expansion. It averages 56 views pd, which isn't too bad. Myself, I'd sooner keep stone, alabaster & wood in the same article, as the format & style seem essentially the same. But sections on the various materials, certainly - there's stuff at Nottingham alabaster. In the later Middle Ages at least the British & French styles seem pretty similar, so a Euro-wide article is probably best until it is a lot bigger. Tomb monument and Wall tomb both go to Funerary art at present. Johnbod (talk) 03:10, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks :) Needs an iconography section! Theramin would deeply appreciate if you could suggest starting points on the Early modern section (which is outside my area). Ceoil (talk) 23:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)



Sorry, late coming back to this. (Apologies, too much other stuff going on: I hadn't expected to be worrying about parents quite so soon after the demands of children decreased, but this is life. My very strong recommendation is to settle as near to at least some family as you can bear.  And so the muse has largely escaped me for some considerable time.)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "early modern" (late medieval? early renaissance? eg Donatello? even into the 16th or 17th centuries?) and I am by no means an expert either, but if it is tomb effigies you are after, we have things like the Tomb of Antipope John XXIII and the Scaliger Tombs. How about the tomb of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York (right)? Theramin (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Some pickings at List of extant papal tombs. Johnbod (talk) 04:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Adam and Eve (Dürer)
Thank you. I am currently working on it, but please come again in a few days and check my wordings, I am not always sure if it's ok since English is not my mother tongue. Would be much appreciated. By the way, I am considering to split the lemma in two, if my expansion grows too much: Adam and Eve (Dürer engraving) and (... painting) respectively. MenkinAlRire 17:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think your on the way for a split. Its great to see the work. Would be happy at a later date to revisit the prose. Ceoil (talk) 21:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Table captions
Hello. Regarding your removal of table captions on Doolittle (album) here, just letting you know that they are required for all tables on Wikipedia per MOS:TABLECAPTION (part of WP:ACCESS), explained at MOS:DTT and decided upon by consensus at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Archive 15 so they should not be removed.  Ss  112   01:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Trokia
Completed copy edits and pinged Gog a while ago. Hopefully he comes back to it. Paleface Jack (talk) 19:47, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * He already has, still opposing, but with a very useful list of suggest improvements. Ceoil (talk) 20:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Saw that and made some adjustments plus some questions. In terms of plot, the anthology nature and how my sources report it, leaving it as it is is for the best with some fixes on prose. Paleface Jack (talk) 00:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

May music
Today's story mentions a concert I loved to hear (DYK) and a piece I loved to sing in choir, 150 years old (OTD). -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Today's story is about Samuel Kummer, one of five items on the Main page - more musing on my talk --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 23
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Potential Troika Additions
Hello my friend. I have been sort of thinking about how to flesh out and snip away at that Troika article. One of my ideas to add to the production section, to make everything in the article click together, is to include a scholarly definition for art film and how the movement had gained popularity around that time. I read over the article on art films, and it adds a bit more logic to some of what Hobbs did for Troika in regards to narrative structure. Paleface Jack (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan. I'm surprised - given its an art-film, that most of the sources you have are from the popular film press; would have though there would be more academic or film theory type essays you could have drawn from. Did a search on jstor and Google Scholar earlier, and....nothing. Ceoil (talk) 21:29, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I searched everywhere and no scholorly mention of the film. I am unsurprised cause it it not well known at all. Paleface Jack (talk) 22:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Then I would explain this; why Hobbs is not seen in the pantheon of art film makers, despite this focus on painterly imagery. Snobbery towards the horror genre? Surely some general bio sources have addressed this....ie his legacy. Ceoil (talk) 21:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Flip; the images are so obviously borrowed from painterly sources (I mentioned Goya earlier), would have though somebody had picked up on that. I'm continuing the prose/clarity review on talk. Sorry if the points are bluntly stated. PS when you posted happened to be listening to which is kind of apt, given its throwback retro/future classic horror vibe, which I now know a lot more about thanks to you :) Ceoil (talk) 22:51, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ye. I prefer to be taught the prose so I can work on it and other projects with a better understanding. The Texas Chain Saw film is one of those that I really need to have flawless prose cause of my intentions for it. Paleface Jack (talk) 16:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have also been trying to figure out how to incorporate the "titles" of Troika's segments. Though they are not titled in the film, Hobbs referred to them under titles in the Thrower interview and it would make the production section that mentions these titles more logical. I want to avoid the pratfall of "Hobbs called the segment..." or "Hobbs referred to it as..." which is lazy writing and poor prose as far as I am concerned. I thought about just leaving a note but that is also lazy. Paleface Jack (talk) 16:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Have been thinking about this also, and think you are into "least worst" territory. Think readers would be best served by having definitive segment titles, the source of which is explained in the foot-notes. Anything other in the article body is distracting and frankly a bit meta. I strongly recommend you go down that route. Ceoil (talk) 21:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Would it be better when I mention the segments in the plot to footnote the titles? Paleface Jack (talk) 17:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Never mind. I am also gonna redo the first couple sentences of the development section as it seems a bit too jumbled for my liking and it's a perfect way to link it to what I have on the art film genre tying to the film. Paleface Jack (talk) 15:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Doolittle
It would be nice to re-run that on the main page for TFA at some point, and the obvious date would be the 40th anniversary of release in 5 years time (if anyone remembers). The first time it was ran was 2011, so it's been quite some time. I'd recommend sending it to peer review and featured article review on top of the guild. Harizotoh9 (talk) 14:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Harizotoh9, thanks for note; I agree and am anxiously awaiting somebody from the guild to step up...requested a copy edit from them about a month ago; here is hoping. Ceoil (talk) 21:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ps, I think many will remember, all of the 25th anniversary's got huge press and prominent retrospectives. Ceoil (talk) 21:38, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello
Hi! Nice to see my watchlist lit up this morning. I got more than a little sick of Hemingway (have a stack of books to re-read, but procrastinging ... ) so I picked around the edges of the Dry Tree a bit. Still interested in getting it FA ready - five year plans & all. P.s looking at the thread above I looked through Doolittle & didn't find any errors, but I'm not great at finding errors. Is it still at FAR? Hope all is well. Victoria (tk) 15:11, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello. I would be honoured; the article has been calling at me for ages, the painting is so haunting and different. The five year plan should be put into full effect, frankly it would be really great to collab on another article, reminding that my openion of your ability has always been sky high. I need a few days to close out on the GA for the Corleck Head, and then would be delighted to switch over. Ceoil (talk) 21:11, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ps, Dolittle passed FAR today, but my other main priority is to get Troika (1969 film) ready for FAC, but think it just needs a few hours of focus get the structure bang up to snuff. Ceoil (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Congrats on Doolittle! Whew, for getting that done. There's work & reading to be done for Hemingway & the clock is ticking so I won't be able to pivot to the Dry Tree immediately (and I'm slow). That said, I'd like to see if I'm even capable of getting an article through FAC these days. I've noticed that the reviewers are checking lots of new stuff - image placement (!!), alt text, templates (which I can't really do), & wanting to see sources for verification, among other things. So I thought maybe we should give it try & see what happens :) Victoria (tk) 23:08, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with new criteria tbh (although alt text can be tricky and vearing into or OR visual art pages), and it was always the challenge of FAC that attracted me the most. Haven't nomed in a year, planning to get back with the pagan head but want it to be just so. Apart from that, a collab on the Christus would be like old times; exciting and rewarding; your ability has always brought out the best in me. Ceoil (talk) 23:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Cool. You're on. Let's do it. The head is creepy - gives me the heeby-jeebies. I tried to give a run through but couldn't. There's power in that object, even in pictures, even after all these many years. It's a worthy project & pairs well with the lady in the tree. Victoria (tk) 23:39, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see it like that...to me its ancestral and although the craftsmanship is primitive see it as long ago people reaching out to the future. Ceoil (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * People reaching to the future is probably what I mean by power. Or something. Ignore my hyperbole. Victoria (tk) 14:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks re the head, re the tree. Ceoil (talk) 23:44, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So ... can you find the Nosow (2012) source? The one I'm finding is about medieval music so I'm confused. Though I know what it's sourcing - the niches & van der Weyden - is true. I think Sterling discusses the niches - will trawl through my files. Later! Victoria (tk) 23:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll try re Nosow but no promises. Take it that am starting from zero with the page. Ceoil (talk) 00:38, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Nah, don't bother. The one that's cited in the article is this (if you can see it). Your approach is right, let's start with zero. It's not like there are a ton of sources. I searched again a couple of days ago & this popped. It's a strange context for the dry tree iconography but it discusses it & the pics are good. Victoria (tk) 00:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Great. Nice find! PS We're rewatching s1 of House of the Dragon in anticipation of the season 2 premiere tomorrow night. It's so much better than GoT, which I found tedious from s2 onwards. I am totally on team Matt Smith; he's such a handsome rogue! Ceoil (talk) 06:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I got dragoned out after GoT. Tried reading the book that the new series is based on & just gave up. So didn't even get through much of season one of House. That's me. Critical to a fault. Victoria (tk) 14:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * House of the Dragons is great, as somebody who also was gritting their teeth from about Ned's decapitation onwards. GoT mostly seemed like a bunch of people walking around in a boring quest-like sort of way, but the spin-off is high politics mixed with the bloodthirsty, high-stakes realism of the first season of Rome. And the casting is brilliant. I highly recommend. Ceoil (talk) 14:59, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

June music
Today is "the day" for James Joyce - OTD! Thanks to you and all who helped to retain it as FA! Today is also the day for Bach's fourth chorale cantata (although the OTD people would tell you, no, it's 25 June). The most recent pics (click on "places") have a mammal I had to look up. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

New pics of food and flowers come with the story of Noye's Fludde (premiered on 18 June), written by Brian Boulton. I nominated Éric Tappy because he died, and it needs support today! I nominated another women for GA in the Women in Green June run, - review welcome, and more noms planned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Today we have a centenarian story (documentation about it by Percy Adlon) and an article that had two sentences yesterday and was up for deletion, and needs a few more citations. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Today is a feast day for which Bach composed a chorale cantata in 1724 (and we had a DYK about it in 2012). Can't believe that Jodie Devos had to die, - don't miss her video from the Opéra-Comique at the end, - story to come. The weekend brought plenty of music sung and listened to, and some of it is reflected in the last two stories! + pics of good food with good company --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

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Troika Images
I found a couple of images that could be used for the article in the development section. They depict Hobbs' Trojan Horse piece, One from a still of the film and another from a publication in the magazine Artforum. I was thinking of using both but one can also work too. The other I had is from the press book depicting Nate Thurmond in a crowd of worshipers, it seems much like Goya though i am not sure what specific piece. Paleface Jack (talk) 02:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Great and thanks. I'm starting to think I might be becoming too demanding in my preferences, so may quieten down for a bit! Thanks again. Ceoil (talk) 06:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, the artform article mention's Witches’ Sabbath! Ceoil (talk) 06:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's ok. We both have different styles, and that's good cause we all work to the same goal. Because it is a film article and not like some of you other works, it becomes a bit tricky cause film articles are very exact and picky I. my experience. The article is also not that bit, so adding too many images to it, that can distract readers from the text, and I have seen way too many articles on that as a reader. If the article were 2x longer than it is, then that would be different. It more comes down to what specific images should be used to express the film if they are significant enough. I did find a lot more info on influences for Hobbs' paintings/sculptures using Artforum. And last night, after texting you, I found a treasure trove of information on Begotten from video interviews on YouTube from reliable sources. Paleface Jack (talk) 23:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Its never happened to me but have seen some FAC nominators try to please every opposer and end up with an (promoted) article they no longer like, or slightly less worse....withdraw the nom in frustration. IMO some opposes should be left to stand, and nominators should be able to stand up for themselves, without being a douch about it, obviously. Anyways, onwards :) Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Its ok mate, I get where you are coming from. I am notorious for being stubborn which has and has not worked in my favor. I have been sort of preoccupied working on my edits for The Texas Chain Saw Massacre on my revision page, I am running out of ideas and possible sources/improvements for Troika so I have not been doing much with it. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that why I sid originally that the article should be shorter given the availability of sources. Tight is better than padded....see my last edit summary re Blockbusters. Ceoil (talk) 23:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If it's ok with you, I'll be finished with the ongoing copyedit and source review in a few weeks (c. 3 weeks prob), by which time I expect to support. Ceoil (talk) 23:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds Good. I will keep looking for more info. Paleface Jack (talk) 00:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

YGM
- SchroCat (talk) 17:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks and replied. I hope a non-republican Paddy perspective helps. Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

July music
Pictured on the Main page: Brian's Mozart family grand tour, my story today, and Mozart related to all three items of music on my talk: our 2023 concert, an opera in a theatre where a Mozart premiere took place, and those remembered, Martti Wallén, a bass, and Liana Isakadze, a violinist from Georgia (whose article would be better with more details about her music-making). -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I remember today Bach's 1724 cantata for this Sunday which is unusual in many respects. Another woman needs attention for RD, Marina Kondratyeva. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

She's on the Main page now. My story today is - because of the anniversary of the premiere OTD in 1782 - about Die Entführung aus dem Serail, opera by Mozart, while yesterday's was - because of the TFA - about Les contes d'Hoffmann, opera by Offenbach, - so 3 times Mozart again if you click on "music" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Today's story is about a photographer who took iconic pictures, especially View from Williamsburg, Brooklyn, on Manhattan, 9/11, yesterday's was a great mezzo, and on Thursday we watched a sublime ballerina. If that's not enough my talk offers the chamber music from two amazing concerts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

How's is going?
Hey there, haven't spoken in a while. You been keeping okay? You should known that a friend of mine visited Dublin in the spring and I convinced him to go see the Corleck Head and send a selfie back. I know of its existence, of course, solely due to your work on its article!  Aza24  (talk)   22:52, 15 July 2024 (UTC)