User talk:Ceoil/Archive 5

Control
Yeah, I saw the trailer a few weeks back. First time I've ever seen a three-minute trailer. Looks good, although I was joking with my friends that there's nary a cowboy hat (one of Corbijn's stylistic trademarks) in sight. Still can't get over the fact that the Ian actor played Mark E. Smith in 24 Hour Party People, though. WesleyDodds 07:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone put up The Cure at GAC. I was hoping to work on that one more before listing it there. WesleyDodds 22:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the Shadowplayers film about the early years of Factory? My brother just lent it to me. WesleyDodds 22:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Details WesleyDodds 22:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Can't find anything on YouTube. Haven't watched it yet, but my brother says there's an amusing anecdote about how one time U2 came down to play a festival but they were short on time, so they cut them and sent them back to Ireland. WesleyDodds 22:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking the other day that it might be funny to try and make a Featured Topic about Disappointing Overhyped Albums. Problem is aside from Be Here Now and Second Coming it's hard to think of any off the top of my head. WesleyDodds 22:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

St. Anger is one I can think of in terms of Metal, judging by the reaction it got from the fans and press. A future one will be Chinese Democracy I reckon (when the record company issue it after Axl's death that is). LuciferMorgan 04:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I forgot about St. Anger. While I had stopped listening to Metallica years before, I think if I had carried on, lines like "My lifestyle determines my deathstyle" would have had me asking hard questions. WesleyDodds 22:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Ceoil, here's a listing of all the Be Here Now reviews referenced in the Harris book. If you can't find them reprinted online, I can just cite the book, but I figured you might want to look at the full articles: Caroline Sullivan in the Guardian; Neil McCormick in The Daily Telegraph; Neil Spencer in the Observer; Paul Du Noyer in Q; and Charles Shaar Murray in Mojo. I've got the NME review, which I still need to insert into the article. WesleyDodds 22:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm thinking of making a userspace page were we can make massive edits to Joy Division and then just copy and paste it back on the main article the farther along we get. What do you think? WesleyDodds 21:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

All right, here's a list of sources I have:
 * NewOrderStory DVD (currently in the hands of my brother)
 * Article in Mojo special edition about the making of Unknown Pleasures
 * Shadowplayers DVD
 * NME Originals: Goth collection that reprints the NME/Melody Maker reviews of eary release (one review per release, so for instance either the NME or the Melody Maker review of Unknown Pleasures is reprinted, not both), 1979 article on the band, 1980 show review, Curtis' obituary, and follow-up article reflecting on his death.
 * Oh yes, and the American paperback of Rip It Up & Start Again. I checked out the UK version last week, and the Manchester capter isn't all that different aside from cutting down on space devoted to the lesser bands. WesleyDodds 22:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I listed it here, so that should give you an idea of what else is in the issue if you want to track it down for yourself. WesleyDodds 22:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the thought, but I'm happy just being an editor. Certainly my tiffs with the currently-banned Deathrocker (however badly he came off during them) would be something that would come up during RfA, and that's something I'm not at all interested in reliving. And ultimately Wikipedia's a hobby for me, and a fun and rewarding one at that, so I'd like to keep out of the bureaucracy as much as possible to preserve that. Thanks anyway. I haven't heard the new Editors album, but I'm sure I will soon given my new job. Heard a B-sides EP not too long ago that was really good. WesleyDodds 23:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Every time I mention Interpol in public, I have to make a Joy Division joke. I just have to. Whatever, I own Antics. The new single is all alright. Still, Paul Banks should knock that "I never heard Joy Division until we formed the band" nonsense off. WesleyDodds 23:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's just say it involves me listening to records and talking to promoters. WesleyDodds 23:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course. Nevertheless, while the band is honing their own style, still every time I hear Banks sing I expect the next lines to be "Touching from a distance/Further all the time". Dude's voice isn't as deep as Curtis, but his vocal mannerisms are exactly the same, and he really hasn't changed that over time. WesleyDodds 23:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, no, not exactly. I work for a noncommercial, non profit volunteer organization, and while I do get paid as a member of the staff, it's rather pitiful. But I get to determine what we add to our rotation, among other things, so it's fun. WesleyDodds 23:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Interpol bassist Carlos D. has an insane fixation with gothic rock. Spin references it all the time. By the way, do you have Last.fm? WesleyDodds 23:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It tracks what you play, if you're into that sort of thing. I just got it and am keeping track of what I play on iTunes and my new iPod. CloudNine's got his on his userpage. WesleyDodds 23:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you think if we asked Anton Corbijn for a licensed photo (or, God willing, a free one) of Joy Division for use on Wikipedia he'd let us have one? His website e-mail is corbijn@corbijn.co.uk. WesleyDodds 00:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The text in the soundclip for "D'Ya Know What I Mean?" needs to be corrected; the sentences ae confusing. I have an idea of what it's trying to say, but I didn't want to mess it up. WesleyDodds 21:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Links:  That second one is rather funny, given the situation it describes.WesleyDodds 11:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you access to any of the books about Joy Division? WesleyDodds 00:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove it if it's an obvious bootleg. If it isn't, I'll have to pull out my credit card too. Also, we just got the new Editors album (like, 20 minutes ago). I'll listen to it shortly, but I'll most likely add it to rotation anyway. WesleyDodds 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently in San Francisco to see Smashing Pumpkins. Will be back editing tons of stuff at my usual rate tomorrow. Editors album was good; reminded of Interpol oddly enough. Trying to find some Joy Division books around here, but not finding anything aside from what I can already borrow from my brother. WesleyDodds 20:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Almost ready to have the GAC hold on The Cure removed. Some soundclips were deleted; if can upload some new ones that would be grand, but they don't need to be the exact same ones. "Boys Don't Cry" and "The Lovecats", maybe. Most of the sounds there are "doom 'n gloom" Robert and not "hysterical shrieks and dancing in his pajamas" Robert. WesleyDodds 00:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Cure got GA'ed. Meanwhile, have you heard about this? Including Cocteau Twins and the Mary Chain is stretching it in my opinion, but given I'm a fan of both I can't say it isn't welcome. WesleyDodds 08:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

My brother's got that book. I actually read through it in a night. WesleyDodds 21:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Remember how I mentioned once that I had an issue of Spin with an article about Curtis' suicide that I couldn't seem to find? Well, I found it. It was lying face down on my coffee table within arm's reach of where I am sitting right now the whole time. Fuck. WesleyDodds 05:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeats
Looks good; the only major stumble for me was the line "his subsequent explorations of Irish identity had a significant influence on the creation of his country's biography", which somewhat confused me. I think based on the biography section it would pass FARC. For the section about his style, you might want to move some details from the biography to that section. There are cited lines about his early poems and the later use of automatic writing in the history that would work well in that context. WesleyDodds 23:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Emmylou
I've tagged it under CSD G7. Will (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Be Here Now
I was wondering what you were talking about. :) Good luck on the FAC, though. NSR 77  T C  22:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Meant for me perhaps? --PEJL 23:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem. You're welcome :-) --PEJL 23:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thinking about making a brief section about the album cover. Will mention the release dates on the cover, the details behind the composition (detailed in that Q article), and talk about how the cover design was replicated onstage during the accompanying tour. What do you think? WesleyDodds 21:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's strong enough to keep, and it certainly doesn't belong in the lead. Your revert is fine. WesleyDodds 21:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations on Be Here Now getting to FA. LuciferMorgan 16:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Triptych, May-June 1973
I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to read it all through yet, but I did notice the "Critical Reception" section is a little flimsy. I imagine it is tough to get reviews for art from this period: not recent enough to generate a lot of web stuff and too recent to have any depth of easily accessible scholarly research. You might consider dropping it as separate section and rolling it into the section above if you can't find anything more. I'll try and give it proper read on Monday. Yomangani talk 00:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Managed to have a better read through. I think the "Black Triptychs" section is relevant, but I would have expected to find it ahead of the discussion of the Triptych, May-June 1973 section. At the moment I get the feeling of: Background...Focus of the article...More background. The "Black Triptychs" section has a bit of analysis specific to Triptych, May-June 1973 as the last paragraph, which may make for a good bridge between the two sections if you rearrange the order. Also, we never get to know what the three "Black Triptychs" are: Triptych - August 1972 is mentioned and obviously Triptych, May-June 1973 is one, but which is the other one? An image of the third set might be nice too. Overall it gives an good insight into the painting; I'm not a fan of Bacon but found it genuinely interesting. It does need a light copy-edit: Melvyn Bragg is introduced after he is mentioned, and the labelling of the panels can be confusing (it was mentioned that the doorway was reversed in the second panel, when I think this was actually the right-hand panel? Or if not I can't see where it is reversed). Yomangani talk 17:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeats
Long time no talk. Hope things are well. How's the Yeats page? Good to go? Marskell 18:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

John Mayer
Would you mind giving the John Mayer page another once over and reconsidering your vote for its promotion as a featured article? Thanks!-- Esprit15d (talk ¤ contribs) 13:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks sincerely for your investment in the article. I really appreciate it.-- Esprit15d (talk ¤ contribs) 12:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Grunge music FAR
I knew grunge music would have to be fixed up eventually (I even ordered a documentary on Amazon the day before it was listed on FAR); I just hoped they had waited a month. Anyway, I've got a couple of sources to work with. Can you see if you can find any articles? Particularly early stuff by Everett True, who was the first in the British press to write about grunge. WesleyDodds 07:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * BTY this kind of annoyed me right now:, Want to help me with fair use? WesleyDodds 23:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Straightening out as we speak. By the way, when I was in San francisco this weekend I bought this book that analyzes classic rock songs. Among the canon, has musical studies of tracks by R.E.M., The Smiths, The Cure, The Banshees, Nirvana, Radiohead, and so on. Check out the table of contents to see if any chapters might interest you for a future project. WesleyDodds 00:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. There's two articles I'm especially looking for. One is "Grunge: A Success Story" by Rick Marin, published in the New York Times in 1992. This is up for sale on the Times website; if you can't find a copy already available to you I can just buy it. The other is a Time article from 1993 (the cover to it is on the grunge music page). For some reason Time hasn't reprinted it yet online. Let me know if you find either one. WesleyDodds 22:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't mind the list all that much, since there really aren't that many grunge bands. We could keep either the list or the timeline, I say. WesleyDodds 23:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He seems rather busy, so I let him be. He still hasn't got back to me on working on Ian Hooky and the Boys. WesleyDodds 23:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Ceoil 00:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Inside the quotes for American grammar. I'm actually going to do a ton of work on the page later tonight; right now I have to catch a bus (or walk) so I can drop off an Albert Ayler box set and review some music. WesleyDodds 23:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I got distracted by this. While I have the utmost respect for WikiProject Comics and all the effort they put into standardizing and crafting comics articles, it's gradually dawned on me that despite all their hard work they have produced very few exemplary comics articles, and the ones that have reached FA or GA go to hell rather quickly if no one is vigilantly maintaining them. God, I'm going to have to check out a ton of books sometime so I can tackle that stuff. I'll work on grunge in the coming day. WesleyDodds 10:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Aside: Should I dare tackling the "Hey Jude" FAR? It's a Beatles song, for Christ's sake. In theory all of these should be outstanding articles (that was the primary motivation for me getting "Smells Like Teen Spirit" to GA and then FA). WesleyDodds 22:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm in. By the way, after years of debate I think my favorite Beatles song is "Dear Prudence". Can't stand the Banshees version, though, even if the video has Robert Smith hiding and mugging like a bratty child in the background. WesleyDodds 23:08, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Dear Prudence" is great. A Beatles ballad with a bit of an edge and eerieness. John Lennon singing with reverb, that ringing guitar, Paul's descending bassline, and a fanastic final chorus with Ringo earning his keep. Exhibit A in how to make a great album track. WesleyDodds 23:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Great work
I see you worked the last two on that section you'd found for Yeats, so I went ahead and kept it. Nice save, once again! Marskell 10:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Peace in the Valley
I know, I feel much of my raison d'etre has evaporated since the Daddy left the building. I've been focusing on United States for the past month-and-a-half, which did attract a couple wingnuts, but none as vituperative (or as funny) as that ol' DyK.—DCGeist 06:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to, but...
As you may have gathered from my user page at some point, I live in the Arabian Desert. No good libraries (at least that I can access) and the bookstores work on a random checklist basis. Thus my great Wiki failing is that I can't edit the arts. For "soft" science subjects, I can find abstracts and whatnot; I have gathered together a small book collection, but no literary analysis. But by all means work on Blake, which would be wonderful to have on the main page sometime. I can help with prose and organization, of course. Let me know if you need help. Best, Marskell 08:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Triptych
Ceoil, I've completed the latest Bacon article, and left a few inline comments for you. – Outriggr § 07:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

By the Way
Just want to express my thanks for the copyedit you gave the article. Hope your travels are going well. Regards, NSR 77  T C  03:25, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Speaker of the United States House of Representatives
I see you worked on this one early in the month. It's headed for remove unless worked on further. Let us know on the the review. Cheers, Marskell 09:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Górecki 3rd
Nice work on the article about this piece. It reads well; the "score and instrumentation" section made sense to me. It's a stunningly beautiful and moving piece, and it's always amazed me that the early reviews were so hostile. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 21:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for spotting my braindead error, there. So, going for the big guns right away, eh? I'm curious to know how they will react; I think there are very few FA-class articles on art music pieces, so this will be something of a rarity. I have a terrible connection right now so I wasn't able to look at the state of the musical examples; I worry that three examples from one piece might still run afoul of fair use concerns, but I'm sure if it's an issue someone will complain during review. One other thing is that the citations of the newspaper and journal articles are usually nonstandard, not using Citation; people might complain about that, too. Chubbles 02:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Automated Review
I thought it wouled be better if I did it like that so that the users involved in that particular article (and others not involved) could see the problems that are arising. Oh well. Shall I just post it on talkpages? Davnel03 07:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done, and Done automated reviews. If you want me to do anymore, just ask! Davnel03 07:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Article name
Tony (WP:DASH) says the endash has to be in the article name. Triptych, May-June 1973 ?? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 19:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ceoil, hope your travels are going well. I'm going to archive my talk page (finally), but Outriggr and I talked it over and Tony weighed in that the ndash should be spaced, per WP:DASH (surrounding elements have spaces). So, it should be all set; I hope I didn't mess anything up.  Best, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Choosing Death
Got my copy through the post today, per your recommendation. Upon a quick scan, yeah I agree it does delve into Napalm Death a little too much. It suggests as though the author really wanted to pen a Napalm Death book, but couldnt because it wouldn't sell so much, and so then he had to flesh it out. LuciferMorgan 11:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

John Mayer FA promotion
I want to thank you for your assistance in bringing the John Mayer article to FA. It means the culmination of almost two years of work for me, and wouldn't have been possible without help from the WP community. Thanks again.--Esprit15d 12:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Points of interest
Here's another amusing bit to link to on your user page.

In more exciting news, my Amazon.com order came in today, which not only had the Hype! DVD for the grunge article, but a copy of the 33 1/3 book on Loveless. Now there's a future project for us. Amusingly enough, I was skimming a book and found a paragraph where the author cites an older version of the Shoegazing article. WesleyDodds 00:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The book's not just a useful source for Loveless. The book devotes an entire chapter to explaining how Kevin Shields plays guitar.


 * Also, I was slightly offended when I noticed about a month back that Unknown Pleasures was a stub. I know it didn't sell shedloads, but . . . a stub? Gotta fix that at some point. WesleyDodds 21:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I can lay out the basics on the Loveless page and will definitely assist you over the coming says/weeks/months in making it proper and presentable. I'm afraid of getting distracted at the moment, which happens a lot the more I edit Wikipedia. I went to the library on Tuesday with the intention of researching grunge and instead ended up spending an hour citing comic book articles that badly needed citations. I'm trying not to spread myself thin, especially given the grunge FAR, but there's always a lot I want to write about. I think I need to pace myself more effectively. PS: I'm listening to Ride's "Drive Blind" right now. WesleyDodds 21:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't forgot about the "Hey Jude" FAR. I'm mainly working on cleaning up the prose. I'll also dig through my Beatles Anthology hardback to see if there's any useful info within. WesleyDodds 21:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I've got to find out what this site that cannot be mentioned is. WesleyDodds 01:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I started going through discussions there and got disoriented rather quickly. And I've got a playlist to prep right now so I should peruse later. Hah, I was about to send you a link (are you able to stream online while you are travelling?) but now I'm thinking against it. WesleyDodds 02:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well then, got any music recommendations for the holiday? WesleyDodds 02:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The Peel Sessions disc is awesome. Right now I'm pulling out a few old Factory acts. Section 25 and so forth. WesleyDodds 03:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

RE: Loveless
Count me in, I'll help out with it. I may get a book soon that covers parts of MbV's career soon - including, I think, the making of Lovleless. But I'll have to see. --Brandt Luke Zorn 21:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Cast yer vote. WesleyDodds 21:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)