User talk:Cg2p0B0u8m/Archive 1

Role tables
Hi. This is just a note to say that the Opera Project has a standard style for role tables, see WikiProject_Opera/Article_styles_and_formats and we don't use bold for role names. Thanks and regards. -- Klein zach  23:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

L'oiseau bleu
Hi. This is just a note to say that I've edited this to our usual style. We have a particular way of capitalizing foreign titles. This is explained on an Opera Project page, see WikiProject_Opera. Best. -- Klein zach  00:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The Gambler (Prokofiev) fixed
It's quite likely that I did set up the box and, if so, I missed a crucial "|" after the role type line. Anyway, it's fixed assuming that José Lens is Alexei. Viva-Verdi (talk) 21:27, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Pineapple Poll
Hello. You added a citation to Theatre in my blood. Can you add a page number(s), please? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Succession boxes - Mackerras; Sadlers Wells>ENO; Elder .....
Charles Groves? Some sorting-out seems necessary. --GuillaumeTell 00:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

My only edit to this box has been the addition of Balkwill and Bernardi on the Mackerras page. Grove actually gives Groves as musical director from 1977-9 (ie two seasons). Mackerras is given as 1970-77; Elder followed immediately after Groves.

Could you say what exactly needs sorting out re Groves? Thanks Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 10:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My problem was that the Mackerras succession box showed Elder coming next, not Groves (I've fixed that). The box in the Elder article was correct.  There's no box in the Groves article (or in the Balkwill/Bernardi ones).  Anyway, I've now got all the details from Opera Grove, so I'm going to update the list of Music Directors in the ENO article and put in the missing boxes.  I'd have done that last night, but it was getting late.


 * Have you thought of joining the Opera Project (WP:WPO)? I see that you've been around here for some time and have done lots of opera stuff.  And you might think of putting something (anything!) on your user page so that your signature changes from red to blue (or green, or blue and green, or whatever).  Best. --GuillaumeTell 14:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - I was only looking pre-Mackerras and missed the mistake after... I have just checked the New Grove dates in the Nancy Phelan biography of Mackerras (1987) and that book confirms his ENO appointment as January 1970 to December 1977. I'll think about the Opera Project and see if I can put something on the user page. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Bournemouth SO
Thanks for your kind comment on the BSO discussion page. Unfortunately, our 'friend' Sbonsor, who doesn't know how to make all the edits on a page at once and then save it, is back and put back a bunch of the subjective POV text. Edit wars on the BSO page are on the horizon. I haven't yet written anything on Sbonsor's page, since s/he will probably take anything that I saw as an affront. Let me know what you think, and thanks again, DJRafe (talk) 00:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Mlle, Mme etc in cast lists (e.g. Robinson Crusoé)
Up to now we haven't used Mlle, Mme etc in cast lists, especially as voice type is given. Is it possible to leave it out in future? Is that OK? Thanks. -- Klein zach  01:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Valerie Masterson
Thanks for the new reference, but can you complete the author's name? You have "Adam N." Also, is there a page number? Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the first name of the author was Nick; it comes from under the entry for 'Masterson'.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Bill Inman
Hi, just took an interest in your Bill Inman article and nominated it for a DYK. Donnie Park (talk) 23:20, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Great - he was a incredibly interesting man. The article could probably do with a bit of polish. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:35, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Veronique
It is looking much better. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Your comment regarding Eliza
Hi, I've moved your comment here. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 12:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Copying my message to the Opera Project
I'd be grateful if you linked to the discussion, but didn't copy my message to a different location. I'd prefer my message to remain where I posted it. -- Klein zach  14:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Les cloches de Corneville
Hi. I found updated links to two of the links that you deleted. When you see a broken link, instead of deleting it, would you please try to updated it? Otherwise, what happens is that the articles become unreferenced, even though there are perfectly good updated links on the internet. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Berthelier (singer) and two requests
Hi. I've just seen your excellent new article on Berthelier. However can I make two requests:


 * 1. Can you please follow the capitalization rules at The Opera project, see here?
 * 2. Can you please add the WikiProject Opera banners to the relevant talk pages?

Thanks and best wishes. -- Klein zach  03:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 19:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

André Messager
I have added a lot of information, images etc to this article, to which you were earlier a substantial contributor, and I have nominated it for peer review. Any suggestions there will be most gratefully received. — Tim riley (talk) 11:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, congratulations I noticed you made some massive improvements with also some good graphics. I will try to read it through and see what to suggest.

There is probably more to say about P&M (I am currently reading Mouvement Contraire by Inghelbrecht which has various mentions) and his conducting career. I personally prefer standard encyclopedia practice in naming the place of birth and death in the first sentence. Unfortunately I have never seen a score but from what I can find out I think Hélène (drama) is just incidental music, not operatic. (I have various others of his works in draft to ‘create’ and upload). I suppose when there is more material ‘Twentieth century’ should be sub-divided, and as most composer entries in Wikipedia, more could be said about his musical style (quite interesting, in Messager’s case). I don’t know how the ‘4½ minute’ thing got changed, but I have a feeling those recordings were all in New York and he recorded nothing else. I think he conducted the French premiere of Tosca.

But anyway it’s a very good article now! I will try to think of more to say. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 13:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the Rosenthal additions. Could you rustle up the page numbers, perchance? Tim riley (talk) 13:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I have put some more information from several other sources. The Rosenthal is fully indexed and the seasons are detailed chronologically, so I don't think there is a need for each separate page - it should be easy to check up.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]]  Thanks for all your research and input into the article over its lifetime.  Tim has successfully pushed it through promotion to GA, and your contributions have been central to its development.  Congratulations!  Happy editing!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Harding as a source
I don't think Harding is an accurate source for the correct spelling of French names. All of the changes you have been making based on Harding appear to be inaccurate. The former spellings are congruent with major reference works on biographical entries (such as the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians) of those singers.4meter4 (talk) 22:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Names
Hi. Nothing much in the Opera Project guidelines, except that Grove and Grove Opera are our main reference tools. Wikipedia guidelines are here but may not address your problem. I've noticed one or two name revisions recently, particularly in Benvenuto Cellini (opera) and related articles, but, provided there are redirects, it isn't really a big problem, unless someone well-known under one name has an article with a less well-known title. I remember when someone had John Adams the composer as John Coolidge Adams, which is ridiculous, but it got changed to something more sensible. What were the changes that concerned you? (Feel free to email me if you don't want to do this in public.) Best. --GuillaumeTell 19:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Perchance Amable Désiré Courtecuisse? As I wrote when I moved 'Desiré (actor)' to Amable Désiré Courtecuisse: "We normally use full names rather than stage names as per Grove - with redirects of course." Incidentally, Désiré Courtecuisse might be better than Amable Désiré Courtecuisse. (I couldn't find a good source to decide this.) BTW he was a singer, not an actor. -- Klein  zach  06:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I see that the article is based on French Wikipedia, where the title is Désiré (acteur). My French isn't good enough to know whether "acteur" encompasses singers.  He doesn't seem to be in Grove Opera.  I remember coming upon a lot of these one-word names when working on Geneviève de Brabant ... --GuillaumeTell 10:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your replies. The section on stage names in the ‘Naming conventions’ link is useful. I think the problem is that sometimes the professional/stage name of a person is not used either as a title for an article in Wikipedia or as mentioned within articles (eg cast lists), as here with Désiré. (As well as stage names, single words were once very common in French entertainment – eg for people like Armand Ménard or André Robert Raimbourg.)  To be consistent it would be necessary to change various people from their stage names; for instance why is there no main article (and no use of the same words within other articles) ‘Louis Auguste Florimond Ronger’?   On Désiré, this is the article in Gänzl, and how he is referred to in the other references in the article.  Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 12:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In slightly different fields, Mistinguett and Erté (not to mention Hergé) also came into my mind when I was musing on such things last night. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 16:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A large number of French singers were known by nickname-like stage names: for example (in the 17th century) 'Fanchon' (Fanchon Moreau), 'Louison' (Louison Moreau) and 'Maupin' (Julie d'Aubigny). Given that we can use redirects I don't see this as a big problem. One point worth making is that for contemporaries there was probably only one 'Fanchon' or whoever. That sense is lost in later periods. We can't refer to artists of the past using this kind of shorthand - unless of course they happened to have unique names (like Mistinguett) that remain unambiguous. -- Klein  zach  09:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the further comments.

I still do not understand this method, nor that it is "normal" either for Grove, or Wikipedia. It would take time to do a thorough check, but my impression is that Grove uses stage names, not full names. They don’t have Jean-Émile Diogène Marcoux, or Zulma Madeleine Boufflar or Sophie Johanne Charlotte Crüwell, nor as I mentioned before, Louis Auguste Florimond Ronger. Wikipedia seems also to use stage names both for the above people, and artists associated with Gilbert and Sullivan such as George Rutland Fleet, Margaret Florence Greig (aka ‘Jack’), and William Martyn-Green, and probably lots of others I don’t know about.

If the problem is dealing with identical names, there appear currently to be over 50 John Smiths in Wikipedia (just that spelling, just 2 words, no initials or other names), so I am sure it could easily cope if someone decided eventually to create an article on the other Désiré. But in any case the beauty of Wikipedia is that via the link with the correct stage name page you can offer the reader the extra information about the person without having spell it out in full everywhere. (In this example in other words, the re-direct if needed goes the opposite way.)

I find the insistence on long baptismal(?) names for French performers perplexing. It does not appear to be used in major books (such as Grove, Gänzl, Traubner in this case) and seems anachronistic to do so. As was pointed out above, other people in Wikipedia follow the general naming guideline; as I mentioned, there are Dranem and Bourvil but no entry for Sacha Alexandre or Léonie Cooreman etc. Thanks. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * We need to be rigorously clear about this.


 * We are talking about 'nickname-style' 'stage names', pseudonyms, common names and full names.


 * 1. There is a difference between the French style 'stage name' (like 'Désiré') which functioned like a nickname, and a full-name pseudonyms offering an alternative public identity.


 * 1. Regarding the statement: "my impression is that Grove uses stage names, not full names. They don’t have Jean-Émile Diogène Marcoux, or Zulma Madeleine Boufflar or Sophie Johanne Charlotte Crüwell . . ..
 * Grove gives Vanni-Marcoux (Vanni Marcoux in WP), Zulma Bouffar and Sophie Cruvelli. None of these are one-word stage names. Vanni Marcoux was an informal childhood name + surname (like for example Bill Clinton). Bouffar is simply a variant of Boufflar. Cruvelli italianized her name because she had a career in Italy.


 * 2. On the other hand, Grove does give Fanchon Moreau, Louison Moreau, Marie Le Rochois, Juliette Simon-Girard etc, rather than their 'nickname-style' stage names 'Fanchon' etc. There are probably numerous other examples. (Many 18th and 19th century French singers listed in Amadeus had this kind of name.)


 * 3. Regarding the statement: "Wikipedia seems also to use stage names both for the above people, and artists associated with Gilbert and Sullivan such as George Rutland Fleet, Margaret Florence Greig (aka ‘Jack’), and William Martyn-Green,".
 * Is this relevant? In Wikipedia, George Rutland Fleet is Rutland Barrington (apparently George Rutland Barrington-Fleet was his baptismal name and he shortened it). Margaret Florence Greig (aka ‘Jack’) is Florence St. John (her married name, not a pseudonym), and William Martyn-Green is Martyn Green (another shortening). (None of them are listed in Grove.)


 * 4. AFAIK there is no "insistence on long baptismal(?) names" by anyone, though there is some confusion about which given names to include, and which to leave out. This is obviated in many cases by following Grove, and any other sources that may be available. (I'm personally not in favour of putting a long string of names in the article title.)


 * I hope this is clearer now. P.S. BTW could we check out examples before we list them - and decide what they are examples of? That way we can define the issues involved and work towards resolving them. Thanks in anticipation. Best. -- Klein  zach  04:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry if I have confused the issue by bringing in Gilbert and Sullivan or popular singers – this was just to check how other areas of Wikipedia are dealing with stage names.

Your original statement on amending the article was "We normally use full names rather than stage names as per Grove - with redirects of course." (I have copied Wikipedia guidance is below)

Anyway, I have been giving some full names of artists for whom the article in Wikipedia (and where relevant Grove) is actually the stage name, not the full name. So if we have an article for Amable Désiré Courtecuisse (full name) why is there no article for Jean-Émile Diogène Marcoux, Zulma Madeleine Boufflar, Sophie Johanne Charlotte Crüwell – all of which are ‘full names’? Because their stage names are the ones that are used in reliable sources on the subject and the names which are almost always used to refer to that person.

That’s fine, of course, because you can mention the full name in the main article on the performer or make the necessary distinctions, (as Wikipedia does for John Smith etc), but always use their correct stage name in all other mentions of the person (eg cast lists).

The Wikipedia guidance linked to in the first comment states:

Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens

The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name. (No distinction is made either for nationality or for the number of words in a stage name.) Désiré is the article in Gänzl and as far as I can see this is what is used at every point he is mentioned in Traubner: p20 (twice - I put on the article talk page), p42, p44, p77 and in contemporary documents. The sources used to compile the article show that, and I am happy to defer to Richard Traubner and Brian Roy Gallas...

(Was he ever referred to as ‘Amable’ or M Courtecuisse or Désiré Courtecuisse? )

(I am still perplexed by Louis Auguste Florimond Ronger...)

Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * My position on this is explained in my last message above is line with Grove. (I have yet to find a Grove bio title that I disagree with.)
 * I hope my short reference to 'full name' in an edit summary is now understood not to mean extended baptismal names. (I have already dealt with Marcoux, Boufflar, and Crüwell, see my previous message.) Let's not spend time discussing non-controversial subjects where there is no disagreement.
 * I have distinguished between 'stage names' that are pseudonyms and 'stage names' that function as nicknames. The WP naming convention clearly refers to pseudonyms (see the reference to 'real names'. (It doesn't mean Elvis Presley should be retitled Elvis.)
 * So let's focus on French 'stage names' like 'Désiré'? Are you saying that Grove and Wikipedia are wrong in entitling the articles Fanchon Moreau, Louison Moreau etc and if so why? Where are the articles on 'Fanchon' etc. -- Klein  zach  01:37, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The Amadeus Almanac refers to 'Aimable Courtecuisse "Désiré" ' see here. If you search for Désiré alone you get 12 pages, see here.  That demonstrates how impractical it can be to use only one name.-- Klein  zach  01:48, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I am sorry if you feel I am wasting time; I raised Marcoux, Boufflar, and Crüwell again not because of lack of disagreement, but because of inconsistency. I wasn't aware that you had dealt with them – they have ‘Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens’ (just like Désiré) ‘used most often to refer to a person’ (just like Désiré).


 * I understand your original statement on amending the article "We normally use full names rather than stage names as per Grove - with redirects of course" did not mean full baptismal names and I am sorry if you feel that was directed to you. I have already shown cases where in fact ‘We’/existing Wikipedia opera articles (not to mention many other areas of Wikipedia) “use stage names rather than full names”


 * Where are pseudonyms clearly referred to in Wikipedia guidance? The guidance states ‘The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources’ (not ‘full name’ and no qualification for number of words) ‘even if it is not their real name’ – as in the case of Désiré (for which I have offered two reliable sources: Gänzl and Traubner).


 * For Fanchon Moreau and Louison Moreau: If these are the ‘names used most often to refer to these persons’ in reliable sources then the Wikipedia articles are well titled.


 * I have said before how easy it would be to have this article with its original name and that name used within other articles, and illustrated this by citing the situation with all the John Smiths (22 and 23 December above) – that is the beauty of the links in Wikipedia; one can say goodbye to impracticalities.


 * (Amadeus almanac is of course an admirable effort, but I don’t see its relevance in this situation, nor is it really a reliable source (particulary as I have cited better). I’ve just checked for a few things I remember from previous visits; Pierre Monteux still dies twice, a French singer gives a performance a month after being recorded as having died, Deloffre is constantly given the name Alphonse… those are just from my limited use over a short period) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 13:56, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's try to cut to the chase; Are you suggesting that some one-word stage-named individuals (e.g. Fanchon) should not be so entitled, while others (e.g. Désiré) should? If so, what is the distinction? If you can explain the difference, I may still not agree with you, but at least I would be able to understand your thinking on this. (If you can also provide some examples of the Désiré type on Wikipedia that would also be helpful. I've tried but I can't find even one of them.) -- Klein zach  00:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * According to the Wikipedia guidance I have linked to, I am suggesting that Désiré was the ‘Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens’ for this performer and is ‘used most often to refer to [this] person in reliable sources’ and should be the title for this article, as per the guidance, and indeed how he should be linked to in other articles.
 * I have not seen any Wikipedia rule which stipulates the number words in a person’s stage name/article.
 * Despite the fact that the Wikipedia guidance does not make any distinction about the number of words, I have (along with multiple words) pointed out several examples of single word stage names, such as Dranem and Bourvil (21 Dec) and Hervé (three times). There may of course be others I don't know about. I hope this answers your question. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm a little disappointed that you haven't answered the specific question I asked ("Are you suggesting . . . etc.") which might have taken this discussion forward. Anyway, to clarify one point: what are the "reliable sources" that refer to Désiré (one word)? As noted above, Amadeus Almanac refers to 'Aimable Courtecuisse "Désiré" and Grove, the main reference for singers, does not use ambiguous article titles.


 * Regarding your three examples, I don't think they help us. Two are unsourced. It's likely that Bourvil, a pseudonym, should be André Bourvil, Dranem was a pseudonym as well. He's referred to as 'Armand Dranem' on other sites (e.g. IMDB). (Hervé was principally a composer and it's clear that 'reliable sources' do point to his pseudonym, so no problem there.) P.S. Can you provide links for your examples? That would be appreciated. -- Klein  zach  02:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Reminding myself again about the The Wikipedia guidance:

Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens

The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name.

Therefore 'Désiré' (stage name) should be the article in Wikipedia. It is in Gänzl, and as far as I can see this is what is used at every point he is mentioned in Traubner: p20, p42, p44, p77, and in contemporary documents. The sources used to compile the article show that, and I (and it seems others on Wikipedia) am happy to defer to Richard Traubner and Kurt Gänzl in matters relating to operetta and musical comedy.

You ask for "reliable sources" that refer to Désiré as one word. I have already given Gänzl and Traubner (a) naturally in the article which I created, (b) I quoted from Traubner on that Talk page; and mentioned them both on this present talk topic on (c) 23 Dec and, (d) 1 January. During preparation for the article I looked at some contemporary books but none use a longer name.

Yes Amadeus very often gives a full name of some sort instead of stage name for performers, such as Aimable Courtecuisse "Désiré" (ie things like “Anna Selina "Nancy" Storace”*) so it's not a reliable source for getting correct names. (As well as my previous comments re Amadeus reliability above, see, for example Mignon for other problems). *which of course should not be re-named.

But as stated above: Wikipedia Guidance. When compiling the article and since, I have not found a reference in a book or cast list where he is given a full name rather than his usual ‘Nickname, pen name, stage name, cognomen’. You refer to pseudonym; please show me where pseudonyms are mentioned for guidance in naming of articles?

I am sure it is possible to find lots of websites like the movie site where their policy is to use some sort of full name (just as Amadues Almanac); I’ve no idea what kind of editorial control takes place with them (out of interest, Hervé is given as Florimond Ronger "Hervé"...).

You query the veracity of the stage names ‘Dranem’ and ‘Bourvil’.

It is extremely unlikely that Dranem or Bourvil should be re-named. IMDB website may have full names but do the films themselves?

These French sites have the stage names which they used.

Dranem:

http://www.lesgensducinema.com/affiche_acteur.php?nom=DRANEM%20&from=dvdtoile

http://dvdtoile.com/Filmographie.php?id=17963

[if you click on posters you see his ‘stage name’]

Indeed, if you look at his page on the ‘Encyclopedie de Comedie Musicale en France’ site you will also see the cover of Dranem’s only novel, where again his ‘Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens’ is used (see http://194.254.96.53/cm/?for=fic&cleint=95).

For Bourvil:

http://dvdtoile.com/Filmographie.php?id=708

http://www.lesgensducinema.com/affiche_acteur.php?mots=bourvil&nom_acteur=BOURVIL&ident=6650&debut=0&record=1&from=ok [again, click on posters to see his ‘stage name’ – warning: one (only) out of the nine on the first link has André Bourvil! the rest are Bourvil]

In the Gänzl Encyclopedia of the Musical Theatre (Blackwell, Oxford, 1994) they are given one word entries with their original name in square brackets, respectively as BOURVIL [RAIMBOURG, André] and DRANEM [MÉNARD, Armand] (Dranem – under D)

Re. Hervé – there is no singling out of composers in the Wikipedia naming guidance (just ‘a person’ – see above) His full name was Louis Auguste Florimond Ronger; his stage name was Hervé, so that’s good, his entry is just right, and that is exactly how, with due regard to the Wikipedia guidance, we should deal with our friend Désiré. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 00:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Les Deux Pigeons
Congratulations on at last getting round to creating the separate article on this ballet. I'm impressed that you did it on Chrsitmas Day. I've now edited down my treatment of the operas in the fable article, as promised, and will create a link to your article. In order to remove ambiguity, I think your article should use the ballet's original French title, which seems to be the one the Messager version goes under even in English language sources. I'll do that in a while. Meanwhile, here's a problem for you to research. I've added the Jules Cheret poster as illustration to your article but note that it is dated as 1911 by one source, while you give the date of the Paris revival of the two-act version as 1912. Possibly the date for the Cheret poster is mistaken, but it might be a good idea to double check your source to see if it is accurate. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 13:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

reference to 1912 revival added. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Noted, thanks. You may have noticed I produced an article on Rosita Mauri. To my frustration, I couldn't find a biography online about Marie Sanlaville, although there are plenty of details here and there about her career, her friends, and even the guy who died in her lodgings. Do you have access to some outline details of where she was born, trained, died and buried?


 * Oh, and by the way, on a completely different subject: I located the complete music for Sauguet's Les Forains and an excerpt from Les Caprices de Marianne on YouTube and provided references in the WP article. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 03:37, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Birgit Nordin
Hi! It seems you recently created an unreferenced biography of a living person: Birgit Nordin. The community has decided that all new biographies of living persons must contain a reliable source that supports at least one statement made about the person in the article as per our verifiability policy. Please add references as soon as possible. Thanks! --LaraBot (talk) 00:10, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Links in tables
Perhaps you already noticed, that Kleinzach was able to get WP:REPEATLINK changed, so now it is no longer recommended to link every row in a table. I have no strong feelings about this issue, but was just trying to comply with the former guideline. However, even considering that I followed the previous guideline for a lot our tables, I have no plans to go around removing links. (It is always possible the guideline might get reversed again. What a waste of time to be going back and forth!) That's why I feel that adding italics to article titles could be a waste of time too, since that policy may get reversed again as well. (I seem to have noticed you stay away from these issues. I think that's a good idea, and I should try to follow your excellent example!) Anyway, it's great we have an overlapping interest in French opera. I always enjoy seeing your new articles. Best regards, --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:12, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing it out. When you explained the first time, it actually seemed very sensible to have links whichever way the table is sorted... but there are many baffling things on Wikipedia. Very nice article about Cabel! Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Offenbach operettas
Good work on the Offenbach operettas. I don't know if you plan on doing any more, but it seems to me that Madame Papillon deserves an article. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, I do have some more in mind. I try if possible only to create or make major changes if I have seen or heard a piece (whether Offenbach, Sallinen, or whoever) otherwise things sometimes go wrong. Madame Papillon seems to belong in the more outrageous category, but unfortunately I don't know anything from it, so would have to rely on Yon and maybe one or two other places for a very short article... I can certainly do some more, although I have mislaid my Swedish TV recordings which would help in making some of them. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Jacques Offenbach
I've followed up your most interesting contribution to the talk page, and would be grateful for your further thoughts following my two-penn'orth on that page. Tim riley (talk) 13:18, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Most stimulating additions to the talk page today, for which I am most grateful. Please don't worry about rushing to add the rest of your comments. There is absolutely no hurry whatever. I look forward to your comments at such time as is convenient to you. Tim riley (talk) 16:50, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Good work on the article! Brian Boulton who is working on the Bizet article has kindly looked up some info on JO's and Bizet's relationship which rather bears out your remarks on the talk page. I'll incorporate this info in the next week or so, as time permits. Tim riley (talk) 19:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine, thank you. The more one reads, the more the general level of abuse and criticism of Offenbach seems remarkable. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:50, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Salle Lacaze
I was wondering where the name Château d'Enfer came from. I searched this site [comedie-musicale.jgana.fr] using Google Advanced Search for the string "chateau", but did not turn up anything, so maybe that's not where it came from. Do you happen to remember the source where you found it? Thanks for help! --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Update: I found a very interesting looking book on Google Books with a snippet view which definitely mentions it, since it says it was built in 1848 and was located across from the Cirque national, which was the name of the Cirque d'été when first built. Here is the link: --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

(I see you have now dealt with this) I think I needed an article on this theatre to help with links, so I translated the French one, but had to expand the references so where possible I used the (excellent) comédie musicale site. The Chateau d’Enfer appears in the French article in 2009, so I must have decided to leave it in, even without a reference. The tenor Montaubry took it over at some point, I think after the Montrouges. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:29, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all your help with links, translations, etc! Did I leave something out concerning Montaubry in the Folies Marigny article? It may have been inadvertant rather than intentional. I did this in a hurry when I was tired. The article needs cleaning up with regard to refs in particular. I just wanted to see whether it would work as a separate article from Théâtre Marigny. Sometimes, unless you try it, it is difficult to envision whether it will work or not. Anyway, after I got Yon's book, it started to clear up a lot of questions and got me to thinking that this might be a better way to do it. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Georges Bizet
While researching for this article (which he now has at FAC, should you care to look in) Brianboulton kindly looked out for information about Bizet's continuing relations with Offenbach. Footnote 2 of the Bizet article is very much ad rem, and I have told Brian, who is nothing loth, that I shall be stealing it for the Offenbach article in due course. Tim riley (talk) 14:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know. Yes the Bizet article is a big improvement. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:08, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Piano music of Gabriel Fauré
I have this article up for peer review, if it would interest you to look in. All comments most gratefully received. Tim riley (talk) 18:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The Fauré piano music article is now a candidate for featured article if you care to look in and comment, support, or oppose at Featured article candidates/Piano music of Gabriel Fauré/archive1. Tim riley (talk) 18:03, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Hulda (opera)
Hi Cg2p0B0u8m--

I've just now left two new separate sections at Franck's Hulda (opera), if you might care to look at these, or refer them to another editor. (I'm not a musician, and have virtually no access to information other than from physical CDs.) Milkunderwood (talk) 02:10, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks - much better now. On the basis of you actually having a copy of the programme, I could go ahead and ref the UCO production, unless you'd prefer to do it yourself. It will need two, at the first mention in the text, and again at the cast list. Any thoughts on whether it's worthwhile for me to add anything about the piano reductions? Milkunderwood (talk) 23:03, 18 December 2011 (UTC)