User talk:Chess/Archive 57

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Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment
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Thoughts
As you will know, I got notified and pinged about the dispute between you and Locke Cole at AN/I, even though I wasn't "involved" in that dispute in any way. I've been wondering what to say since your post to my talk page, and decided to continue the approach I had taken at RSN of not engaging with you any further. But here I am and I hope I'm not going to regret it.

I'm going to ask Locke Cole, and other editors, if they are watching this page, not to engage in this conversation please. Also that you, Chess, humour me by briefly answering the questions rather bringing up something else or someone else. If you don't wish to do that, then fine, you can delete this post, and go our separate ways.

At the AN/I, when Locke Cole referred to our earlier dispute, he took a complaint I made about one specific issue and implied I was commenting generally on "the types of comments Chess makes regarding gender issues". I don't actually know you from Adam. I don't recall any prior conversations before that RSN discussion. Maybe we have and I've forgotten. I can't possibly be commenting on a pattern of comments. How did that make you feel for my remark to you to be mischaracterised?

Furthermore, the comment you made had been struck, you had apologised, and I had accepted your apology. Water under the bridge. Something that shouldn't be lightly brought up by anyone. Or if it was, brought up in its entirety as an example of how you fix things when you get it wrong. How does it make you feel that an example of something you thought you'd eventually resolved, was selectively reported and used against you?

That RSN disagreement was, AFAICS, entirely unrelated to whatever bad words have been said by editors on that Colorado Springs talk page. You had to spend a whole paragraph clarifying the selective version of events to include your strike and apology. It really isn't helping address the question of whether the behaviour at the Colorado Springs talk page was acceptable. How did it make you feel for an unrelated event that you'd fixed and apologised for to be brought up at AN/I in a complaint about the behaviour of another editor at the Colorado Springs talk page? -- Colin°Talk 11:10, 28 November 2022 (UTC)


 * How did that make you feel for my remark to you to be mischaracterised? If I had to be honest, I don't feel like it was a mischaracterization. You had a problem with me then about the civility of my edits in the topic area. That's relevant information in a civility dispute, and much like how I used specific examples of warnings over discrete incidents to illustrate a pattern of behaviour, Locke used a specific example of a warning to say that I had a pattern of behaviour. I think they were wrong but they're entitled to say it at ANI.
 * Furthermore, the comment you made had been struck, you had apologised, and I had accepted your apology. Water under the bridge. Something that shouldn't be lightly brought up by anyone. That's not true. An apology + forgiveness doesn't erase past misdeeds. It's a statement of regret + an implicit promise not to do it again. If I act disruptively again, it's fair to bring up my previous misbehaviour even if I was forgiven for it. Someone with a pattern of misconduct should be treated that way even if they've apologized and were forgiven for every individual incident (WP:UNBLOCKABLE style) . I don't personally feel that I have a pattern of misconduct, but I don't feel indignant at the accusation that was made given that it's fair game. My actions have consequences and having to repeatedly explain myself is a pretty fair consequence all things considered.
 * That RSN disagreement was, AFAICS, entirely unrelated to whatever bad words have been said by editors on that Colorado Springs talk page... It really isn't helping address the question of whether the behaviour at the Colorado Springs talk page was acceptable. They're related inasmuch as they both have to do with an accusation that I'm pushing an agenda in that topic, and that's a core element of Locke's claims. In response to everything you said, I generally felt ambivalent about what was said at WP:ANI. I can see why Locke said what they said. It's a legitimate point of view on my behaviour, I don't personally agree with it (and I am somewhat miffed at being labelled incompetent) but if someone wants to bring up concerns about me, they can do so at my talk page or at ANI. I can't really ask for much more than that.
 * If the general point of this is to make me feel empathetic with your own situation after I warned you, I'd like to think that I applied the same standard to myself as I did to others. I don't think it's wrong to complain about someone at ANI or their user talk page. I do believe it's wrong to accuse people of things on article talk pages.
 * Or to put it succinctly, I mostly felt angry at Locke's comments because they were expressed on an article talk page and were meant to gain an advantage in the content dispute. I didn't have a problem when the same accusations were made at ANI, because while I believe the accusations are false, ANI was the correct place for them. Chess (talk) (please use&#32; on reply) 23:55, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, you have a different idea of what is "fair game" and what people are "entitled" to bring up than me, and I'm hoping I can persuade you that is counterproductive. I'll try to explain. Sorry it requires so many words.
 * Let's look at the AN/I post. The title "User:Locke Cole accusing me of being disruptive" indicates this is (or mainly) a dispute between two users. You post a link to the talk page and some recent diffs about the dispute, all of which go to that talk page. You admit your own behaviour wasn't ideal and you need a break, and you indicate some respect for the other guy's contributions to the project. And then there's the "but": "but I believe these comments at that discussion crossed the line. They should not be allowed to use other editors of being incompetent or disruptive on article talk pages."
 * So you are asking others (especially admins) to view that discussion and consider if it crossed a line, and somehow make that "not allowed". Not sure what you wanted or expected? Just a stern telling off or an action that requires admin tools?
 * The AN/I page says it is for "discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems" and recommends "Include diffs demonstrating the problem and be brief; concise reports get faster responses". Your post is a bit of a mix in that regard. There's one incident you want folk to look at, which fits the first scenario, and your request also seems to fit with that. But then you dump in a lot of diffs of past behaviour/warnings/blocks. You are no longer being brief or expecting admins to look at that one incident. It is starting to look like you are in a content dispute and want your opponent sanctioned. So, what you did was alert admins that you are escalating things beyond a content dispute where two people were unfriendly to each other.
 * One consequence of bringing up past behaviour is that your "opponent" also thinks this is "fair game" and does likewise. Hence, they brough up your behaviour at RSN and that distracted you into defending it. On that ground, you made zero progress in dealing with the original complaint, and both of you wasted everyone's time. You are fortunate they didn't go further and dump half a dozen diffs about you like you did, otherwise we could be reading paragraphs and paragraphs of defence and argument between the two of you about your past behaviours.
 * The primary goal of good admins is to encourage and enable editors to work together to build the encyclopaedia. The response you got from Cullen was to consider the content dispute issue itself to see if there is a way to find agreement that both parties can live with, and to consider both parties behaviour at that dispute. They did not comment on any of the past behaviour diffs you guys supplied.
 * So, supplying diffs about past behaviour wasn't useful. It got ignored and just wasted everyone's time. But I think there is a bigger problem with that. It signals that when Chess gets into an unfriendly dispute, they go nuclear. They will dig into someone's contrib history in order to find whatever dirt they can find, and fling it at AN/I or AE in the hope of taking down that opponent. That's behaviour one only does if one really has no intention or lost all hope of working cooperatively with someone any longer, perhaps never had any intention of working cooperatively with others at all. WP:BATTLEGROUND.
 * At AN/I you are upset that Cole accused you of "pushing an agenda". It is a truism that the most abrasive people often have the thinnest skin. Look at your initial post at RSN here, where you say "So you're here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by getting rid of any source that disagrees with your personal opinion on transgender people. You then vote No evidence has been provided that this newspaper of record is unreliable/fabricates evidence. The Economist is well-regraded as a reliable source. No evidence has been provided that it is not. and If people are creating RfCs to inaccurately designate sources as unreliable because it gives an advantage in WP:DUEWEIGHT discussions, that's very concerning and I hope that's not what is happening here. What these posts all tell me is you have got entirely the wrong end of the stick wrt the RSN RFCs, all of which were created by an editor who was participating in an edit war that for them needed those sources to be considered reliable. The RSN RFCs were all created with "no evidence" that these sources were unreliable precisely because they want you guys to endorse their inclusion of material that cites them. You not only accused editors of bad motive but got the whole thing upside down. You accused me and others of pushing an agenda, just like Cole did to you.
 * I tried to explain to you that you had misunderstood the situation. My response was somewhat aggressive I'll admit, but no more so than your outrageous and false allegation. I not only explained you'd got things wrong, but also that the right-great-wrongs aspect was also wrong, in that it was the journalists who were pushing a fringe agenda. This isn't my "personal opinion on transgender people" but a plain fact if you read the medical literature and consider reliable sources. I'm speaking as the guy who created WP:MEDRS and who has had plenty arguments with editors trying to fight the medical establishment to promote some fringe idea or discredit medical science. I also suggested you were making an embarrassment of yourself and should stop digging. For some very odd reason you thought that was "a thinly veiled threat to embarrass me on the internet". When I briefly responded to say I had done no such thing, you suggested I take you to WP:AE. At this point, as I mentioned earlier, I thought best to disengage from interacting further. You'd got some weird idea about threats that nobody made. Then you turn up on my talk page accusing me of making threats generally.
 * Let's consider the difference between a threat and a warning.
 * threat an occasion when someone says that they will cause you harm or problems, especially if you do not do what they tell you to do
 * warning an action or statement telling someone of a possible problem or danger
 * Of the diffs you dumped, only one contained a threat. It wasn't of a topic ban and was directed at an editor using multiple IPs who had made repeated personal attacks on the page. In the end it was resolved by someone else hatting the discussion. I was not alone in warning that IP editor. I have made no other threats, certainly not to take someone to AE or to get them banned. Whereas you were encouraging me to do so for you, and you did likewise for Cullen in the above dispute. It's like you want to keep escalating things till someone gets a block.
 * Posting a bunch of diffs about someone's past, especially when it shows you spent the evening trawling through contribs, about someone you'd never met before, and had crossed words with at one venue, and who already disengaged, is extremely, extremely creepy. And it signals that you have already assembled weaponry to use should we ever come into a dispute again. And from the AN/I post, it looks like you are prepared to do that even if someone is a little bit mean to you one day.
 * Generally speaking, raising past behaviour issues is considered a personal attack (literally, an attack on the person, rather than dealing with the dispute at hand, who said or did what). Doing so at AN/I for some frankly trivial content dispute where both editors were being unpleasant to each other isn't a good tactic. Doing it to a complete stranger is just plain disturbing. I get you feel personal criticism belongs only on some venues and not others, but honestly, you are more than guilty of doing just that yourself, and you just look thin skinned if you fail to recognise that yet complain loudly about others.
 * I strongly advise you to stop doing this dirt digging in people's contribs thing, and instead demonstrate you are an editor who seeks to deescalate situations. Who can walk away if they spot they are getting hot headed. -- Colin°Talk 11:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:NPA says to ignore personal attacks if they're one-off incidents. One would assume that it's necessary to prove that it wasn't a one-off incident to have action taken. Chess (talk) (please use&#32; on reply) 13:06, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily and it depends what action you want taken. As you note, a good advice (though not the only rule to follow) is to de-escalate things by choosing to ignore it. As policy suggests, sometimes people say over-heated things and didn't mean a personal attack even if it was that or looks like that. It may be better to take it on the chin, especially if they are giving as good as they are getting (from you, say). If the attacks continued after trying to ignore it, then the next step is not AN/I but trying to deal directly with the other guy. And there are other options instead of AN/I such as just asking an uninvolved admin or wise editor directly. AN/I is a gamble, because you aren't necessarily going to get a wise admin. You could get all sorts of people turn up with motivations and agendas who don't have your interest or the project's interest at heart. Policy notes that really severe attack could go straight to AN/I, such as explicit hate language or legal or physical threats.
 * The "one off" vs "repeated" aspect for you personally to escalate things would be either if attacks continued on that article (in which case you could cite lots of recent diffs) or you had been attacked by them repeatedly at several articles. In terms of their disagreement with you, either they crossed a line in that recent incident or they didn't. Your background diffs didn't include any prior attacks by them against you. It sorta looks like you thought the case was weak, so went out to find some more dirt to throw at AN/I. Which was, rightly and fortunately, ignored.
 * One other thing. Many times the person making the complaint at AN/I is the one in the wrong (or more in the wrong, or at least equally in the wrong). Creating a section with "User:X accusing me of being disruptive" is only going to put the though into everyone's head that they are probably right. -- Colin°Talk 14:44, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * One other thing. Many times the person making the complaint at AN/I is the one in the wrong (or more in the wrong, or at least equally in the wrong). Creating a section with "User:X accusing me of being disruptive" is only going to put the though into everyone's head that they are probably right. -- Colin°Talk 14:44, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

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Tech News: 2022-49
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MediaWiki message delivery 00:39, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Drama
It's not without irony that I asked the arbitration candidates about the situation you characterised for Debussy, and 10 out of 12 saw no drama, and one didn't answer. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:22, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

It's also not without irony that you refer to the findings of facts, and when you look closer you see that an arb voted to ban a friend of mine citing a diff. Which tells me they didn't look at facts then. So why should we look at their findings? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I was mainly referring to point 1.1 in the first case where the same points about infoboxes were brought up and none of them were described as illegitimate. Not the stuff about you. Likewise how points 1-3 in the second case described incivility, and how editors may benefit from increased civility. I don't really want to see the infobox wars start again. Chess (talk) (please use&#32; on reply) 17:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Guild of Copy Editors December 2022 Newsletter
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Tech News: 2022-50
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Recent changes
 * An A/B test has begun at 15 Wikipedias for DiscussionTools on mobile. Half of the editors on the mobile web site will have access to the  tool and other features.
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Contentious topics procedure adopted
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This Month in Education: End of the 2022
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Tech News: 2022-51
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The Signpost: 1 January 2023
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Welcome to the 2023 WikiCup!
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The Bugle: Issue 201, January 2023
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Tech News: 2023-02
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Recent changes
 * You can use tags to filter edits in the recent changes feed or on your watchlist. You can now use tags to filter out edits you don't want to see. Previously you could only use tags to focus on the edits with those tags.
 * Special:WhatLinksHere shows all pages that link to a specific page. There is now a prototype for how to sort those pages alphabetically. You can see the discussion in the Phabricator ticket.
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Changes later this week
 * Realtime preview for wikitext is a tool which lets editors preview the page when they edit wikitext. It will be enabled for all users of the 2010 wikitext editor. You will find it in the editor toolbar.
 * Octicons-sync.svg Some wikis will be in read-only for a few minutes because of a switch of their main database. It will be performed on at 07:00 UTC (targeted wikis) and on  at 07:00 UTC (targeted wikis).
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. 

MediaWiki message delivery 01:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 January 2023
<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Tech News: 2023-03
<section begin="technews-2023-W03"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Problems
 * Octicons-tools.svg The URLs in "" links on page history now contain <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> in place of <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> . This is to fix a problem with links pointing to incorrect diffs when history was filtered by a tag. Some user scripts may break as a result of this change.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * Some changes to the appearance of talk pages have only been available on  and   namespaces.  These will be extended to other talk namespaces, such as  .  They will continue to be unavailable in non-talk namespaces, including   pages (e.g., at the Village Pump).  You can change your preferences (beta feature).
 * On Wikisources, when an image is zoomed or panned in the Page: namespace, the same zoom and pan settings will be remembered for all Page: namespace pages that are linked to a particular Index: namespace page.
 * The Vector 2022 skin will become the default for the English Wikipedia desktop users. The change will take place on January 18 at 15:00 UTC. Learn more.

Future changes
 * The 2023 edition of the Community Wishlist Survey, which invites contributors to make technical proposals and vote for tools and improvements, starts next week on 23 January 2023 at 18:00 UTC. You can start drafting your proposals in the CWS sandbox.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2023-W03"/>

MediaWiki message delivery 01:08, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Contentious topics procedure now in effect
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to updates on the Arbitration Committee's contentious topics procedure revision process.

In December, the Arbitration Committee adopted the contentious topics procedure, which replaces the former discretionary sanctions system. The contentious topics procedure is now in effect following an initial implementation period. The drafting arbitrators warmly thank all those who have worked to implement the new procedure during this implementation period and beyond. KevinL ( aka L235 · t · c) 19:44, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * For a detailed summary of the changes from the discretionary sanctions system, see WP:DSVSCT.
 * A brief guide for administrators may be found at Contentious topics/Administrator instructions.
 * Updated templates may be found at Template:Contentious topics.
 * Suggestions and concerns may be directed to the arbitration clerk team at WT:AC/C.
 * Discuss this at: 

Trouted
You have been trouted for: having this button on your user page. :-P Cooljeanius (talk) (contribs) 22:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 54
<span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes

Issue 54, November – December 2022 <div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: 1.2em">
 * New collections:
 * British Newspaper Archive
 * Findmypast
 * University of Michigan Press
 * ACLS
 * Duke University Press
 * 1Lib1Ref 2023
 * Spotlight: EDS Refine Results

Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --14:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)