User talk:ChristianandJericho/Archive 2

Suggestion regarding the discussion at ANI
It seems like some of the comments made at ANI are intended to provoke you into replying unwisely. I suggest this; if an administrator asks you something there, then answer it. Otherwise, don't continue engaging in the discussion there.

And another suggestion
Another thing you might consider, is removing the two mentions of pornography from your userpage. You don't particularly gain anything by having those mentions there, and they seem to be causing concern to some people. It's up to you, but I think it might be a good idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Welcome and a suggestion or two
Welcome to Wikipedia! I hope your stay is long and your contributions many. That being said, I think you should remove all mentions of porn or age from your userpage. First, since this is basically an adult community (though you are welcome), neither one of those are going to impress anyone. Second, you see the reaction you've gotten. Nuff said. I suggest also that you not edit in those areas because it's going to remain known that you are a minor, and editors may be reluctant to work with you on sexual topics, for fear of trouble. If you would like advice on the ways of the wiki, my talk page is always open, and I'm an experienced editor and admin. I just read the above comments. I am NOT here in an any sort of official capacity and you do not have do what I suggest or to answer unless you want to.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You also might want to remove your age from your userpage. Again, I want to emphasize that this isn't because you're not welcome (I see far too many users who self-identify as four and five times your age but still act much more childishly), but because it gives some users here the heeby-jeebies.  As Wehwalt has said, a lot of the reaction that's happening at WP:ANI is because of it.  If you remove it, I'm fairly sure that in a couple of months (and yes, I know that seems like an eternity, but it's just the rest of this school semester) almost no one will remember and you won't run into older people making assumptions about you due to your age.  As Wehwalt, I'm not here in any sort of official capacity either, and you're free to take or ignore my advice.  I also extend his offer to answer questions on my talk page; I've got a lot of editorial and administrative experience with WP:AFD and the WP:CSD, and I'll be happy to answer questions about them.  Cheers.   lifebaka ++ 00:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Welcome
Good to see someone who can apologize. I love it. Everyone makes mistakes. I don't know if you were right or wrong, but some the hallmarks of the greatest people are being able to say 'sorry' and 'I don't know'. Bravo. And one suggestion about your userpage, people are going on about your age and porn thingy, keep them and just add you perform autopsies and abortions in your spare time to balance things out a bit. Penyulap  talk 06:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure if you're joking or not... --ChristianandJericho 07:09, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Welcome, seriously.
I wasn't joking at all. It's good to see a rebel with a brain. Not that you'd be much of a rebel at all, just doing the right thing your own way. Unusual, eccentric even. But not wrong. Like I said we all make mistakes, your doing what you believe is right, and you'll be more and more of a success and leave your critics behind, you are happy to learn, admit when your wrong, be civilized, people can't justifiably ask for more than that. Penyulap  talk 08:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi ChristianandJericho, thanks for the thankyou, (it was me who did the g for a d when I was logged out accidentally, it does that sometimes). I see SudoGhost is being friendly. I reckon thats cool, he's a top bloke. I'm not just saying that because he awarded me a barnstar, well, thats not all of the reason, lol. He's good. Anyhow, while I always think it's good to stick to your guns and be defiant with idiots you don't like, I always try to follow my friends advice, as part of being their friend. That's cool too. Personally I think you got a good deal with his offer. I've been adopted by a nice bloke, but he's not SudoGhost :) ...well my mentor is cool too. I think everyone needs a mentor, like in star wars. No matter how experienced I get I'll always need a mentor. Sooner or later I should be able to adopt someone too. I look forward to helping out. Penyulap   talk 11:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Adoption
Hey, ChristianandJericho. I see that you're looking for an experienced editor to adopt you, and I'd be more than happy to do so! Just let me know if that sounds alright to you. Swarm u / t 20:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Mentorship
As per this comment, I've set up a subpage here that includes some temporary guidelines that I would ask you to agree to beforehand, so that we can work through each of the concerns addressed at the AN/I discussion one by one. Please check out User:SudoGhost/Mentor and let me know. Thank you. - SudoGhost 06:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I hope the mentoring is helpful. You have, unfortunately, had a bit of a rough time so far on Wikipedia, but I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to get past it all and have a better time in the future. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I've set up a talk page here specifically for discussing the mentorship, please visit that talk page. Thank you. - SudoGhost 09:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi again. SudoGhost has let me know that they will not be able to continue mentoring you (they're planning to take a wikibreak), and they've asked me to take over. So if that sounds fine to you, we can finally move forward. :) Swarm u / t 15:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And I'll continue to watchlist this page, if it is OK. There may be a need for writing advice.  Or my adminly powers may be handy.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Porn
Hey, ChristianandJericho. While we will get the issue sorted out, for now, please remove the WikiProject Porn userbox from your userpage, and while you're at it, remove the "doesn't give a fuck about your opinion" userbox as well (in accordance with the guidelines you accepted). Swarm u / t 17:57, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

C&J, I've removed the PP infobox from your user page and also taken your name off the list of editors at the project page, because any editor claiming to be both 13 years old and an editor of pornography topic areas is disruptive to the project, whether or not such edits are being (or should be, or can be) made. There are other things that need to be settled as to your edits here, but either way, please do not put back the infobox (or anything like it) and don't re-add your name to the project list. If you do, they'll only be removed again and you'll most likely be blocked for at least a week, maybe two. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:13, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey, I wouldn't like to butt in here, but do you seriously think you're going to get anything productive out of threatening him for wanting to contribute on porn articles?--Deely 1 19:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not what happened. To learn what did happen, you might read my post (above) again, carefully. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh I'm reading it...--Deely 1 20:13, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * One can also read more of my thoughts on this here. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback
Swarm u / t 20:08, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

blocked
I've blocked you indefinitely owing to disruption, along with your behaviour after agreeing to these editing restrictions. You can work with your mentor towards getting unblocked, or post an unblock request. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I thought that older editors have to agree with a indef block? --ChristianandJericho 00:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Any administrator can give an indef block, even administrators that are younger than you (there are a few...) Although I guess you meant other editors. The block gets reviewed by a different administrator, but it doesn't have to be agreed by one in advance. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

C&J, no one is arguing that the rules say you're not allowed to add yourself as a member of the porn WikiProject, nor is anyone saying that the rules say you're not allowed to edit related articles. (Some people are saying that this is perhaps legally complicated, but that's neither here nor there unless the Foundation comes down with a decree on the matter.) What is a problem is that so many people are bothered by you adding yourself to this project and stating that you plan on editing related articles. Regardless of whether or not it's allowed, the simple fact that so many people take issue with it is a very good reason not to do it. You editing in these areas and leaving yourself as a member of the porn WikiProject would generate far too much drama and general disruption of the project, and if you are not willing to simply not edit in this area, then we're forced to block you to prevent that disruption. Especially given that you had agreed, through your mentor, to remove yourself from the list of members of WikiProject Porn, and remove some unnecessarily crude userboxes from your userpage, which you did not do. All we really want to do, C&J, is avoid disruption, and if you agree to leave the WikiProject and userboxes alone, that'll work as well as a block. Cheers. lifebaka ++ 00:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I have a problem with this block. While it's true that he agreed to those editing restrictions, I don't think it was fair to demand those restrictions. There may or may not be a legal issue here, but as was said, unless the foundation wants to step in to clarify, there is no policy I can think of that restricts his editing porn related pages, nor from joining the project. That people may not want it is irrelevant unless he is editing disruptively. So long as he is competently contributing, he should have access to all the pages on the Wiki that anyone else would. If anything this kind of treatment is going to destroy the relationship with a potentially good editor who is already enthusiastic at such a young age. Yes he needs a mentor, and yes that IDGAF box comes off in a bad way (although I don't think the editor means any offense, remember to AGF), but the block is too much IMHO. Sorry if I'm missing something here, but I don't get how this restriction is justified. N o f o rmation Talk  03:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you consider it disruptive intentions for someone to declare they are 13 and part of a Porn Wikiproject? I can't fathom a reason for these actions other than to get attention.--v/r - TP 03:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If the editing is disruptive then we can certainly block for that, but I don't find that stating the facts that one is of a certain age and that one intends to edit any project on Wikipedia disruptive. If we had rules in place that prohibited it then yes, attempting to bypass those rules would be disruptive.  Now, my understanding was not that the user went to the project and announced that he was 13, but it said he was 13 on his user page and so people tied it together.  If he purposely went to the wikiporn project and announced he was 13, then perhaps that is a little immature.  But how much utter crap do we deal with on AN/I from people who don't give two shits about the project?  At least this user is interested and in the future may develop into a really great editor.   N o f o rmation  Talk  04:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Editors who are being mentored are very often placed under restrictions, either by the community or by their mentor, which are much more restrictive than we would place on a regular editor. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Those restrictions usually aren't arbitrary. If this user had vandalized or otherwise disrupted porn pages then this would make sense.  We don't do restrictions for the sake of restrictions.   N o f o rmation  Talk  05:25, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If we ignore the porn issue for now, whatever you may think of the box it appears you agree it may be intepreted the wrong way. Considering this, it was entirely resonably for people to ask him to remove the box while under mentorship largely arising because people found plenty of his non porn related edits disruptive, and this isn't an arbitary restriction. If despite that, he felt this restriction was unfair, there was no reason why he couldn't have attempted to discuss it. However instead he agreed to it but then proceeded to revert an attempt to remove the box despite his said agreement to the restriction. And he's still shown no sign he understands or agrees he shouldn't have tried to keep the box if he agreed to remove it as part of restrictions on him. It appears he's now working out a new agreement that allows him to have a box which was what should have been done in the first place but that isn't the fault of others. Edit: Actually it looks like an agreement was reached on the DGAF box before the block (but only after earlier agreeing to the restrictions). The problem remains CJ didn't adhere to the new agreement either. It's true that GG could have put the DGAF box allowed by the new agreement, but I'm not sure if they noticed the new agreement as it was in the talk page and I can't really fault them for that. And it was ultimately CJ's responsibility to ensure they went along with their agreements and in particularly going clear cut against them by reverting the removal of the box that wasn't allowed in either agreement clearly wasn't on. Nil Einne (talk) 05:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * When I said older editors, I meant more experienced, also check the unblock request below --ChristianandJericho 10:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see, both boxes remain on the user page. What is that about, exactly? - Bkid Talk/Contribs 15:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Only the one, the DGAF box, is still there, C&J has been very keen about keeping that and Swarm, as C&J's mentor, has allowed it. So, while the WPP box is gone, C&J still at least gets to have the word fuck on their userpage. Now that C&J has been unblocked into snug mentorship, I guess it's time to sit back around the crackling campfire and sing Kumbaya. Fye, I forgot to bring my trusty Hohner. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops, I meant his age box. Users generally discouraged him having that box because of prejudice due to age, but I guess he can keep it if he wants. Also, I brought the marshmallows. - Bkid Talk/Contribs 18:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

To Swarm
Please help me get unblocked, I am watching your contributions waiting for you to look at my talk page --ChristianandJericho 00:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree to completely abandon WikiProject Pornography for the duration of our mentorship. The community does not feel it's appropriate for you to participate in that area. Do not add your name to the list, do not add a userbox, do not edit anywhere in that subject area, do not even mention it from here on out. This is a very light restriction and there's millions of other things you could do, and enjoy, on Wikipedia.
 * Agree to one of the plans I've laid out at User talk:Swarm/Mentor to prove that you can be a constructive editor. Focus on completing it, and don't work in any other area without asking me first.
 * Understand that this is your last chance. If you violate the above agreements, or the restrictions you've already agreed to, you will be reblocked.
 * Sign your name below if you agree, and indicate which plan you'll choose. Swarm u / t 00:32, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand and agree to the above conditions:--ChristianandJericho 09:57, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Choice of mentorship plan: Okay, here's what I'll do, I'll follow all of the rule but you have to put me on the inactive side of WP:Porn because the matter is being discussed and I have to stop editing there FOR THE TIME BEING --ChristianandJericho 10:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Deal I'll stay away for the duration of our mentorship --ChristianandJericho 09:57, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ummm, why am I still blocked? --ChristianandJericho 13:59, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Unblock (2)

 * CandJ, where it says "Choice of mentorship plan" it means you need to state which one of the three options you choose, not just say "I agree". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:52, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * As Demiurge1000 states, if you chose which mentorship plan you want to take, I'd support an unblock - with the proviso that I will be watching you carefully, and could well summarily re-block you. I have great faith in Swarm - and indeed in the "adoption school" he mentions (I think it's the one I wrote!) and as long as you accept that you should consult with your mentor before taking actions, then I see no reason you should stay blocked. WormTT  &middot; &#32;(talk) 11:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you for supporting the unblock, by the way, how's ArcAngel's nomination for adminship going? --ChristianandJericho 12:43, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You still haven't answered which mentorship plan you'd like - it'd be a good idea to focus on your own situation. Since you ask though, I've found a lacking in content contributions by ArcAngel, and hopefully he and I will collaborate on an article. I've given him a suggestion already. I'm sure he'll make a great admin, but these things do take time. <font color="#000">WormTT  &middot; &#32;(talk) 12:57, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What does "mentorship plan" mean, if you mean what will I do, I will contribute better and be more civil --ChristianandJericho 13:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, I will consult with my mentor before doing anything major --ChristianandJericho 13:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Swarm specifically asked you which one of the mentorship plans you would agree to on User talk:Swarm/Mentor. For clarity I've added them below. Basically, it's an agreement that you will consider yourself mentored whilst aiming to complete one of these plans. I personally recommend the adoption school, since I've done so much work on it ;) <font color="#000">WormTT  &middot; &#32;(talk) 13:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Mentorship plans
 * 1) Graduate from "adoption school". This will consist of 8 lessons that cover the basics of Wikipedia. You'll then show that you understand the topic by taking a short quiz.
 * 2) Write five DYKs.
 * 3) Focus on constructive article work until you have 1,000 edits in the article namespace.
 * I'll agree on the first one --ChristianandJericho 13:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm glad it has turned out well. Keep in mind that your contributions are undoubtedly being watched by several editors, so stick with it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, ChristianandJericho, you can start the adoption school tomorrow (I will give you the link). You're obviously allowed to work on articles directly, but don't participate in other areas without letting me know first (for example, deletion discussions). <font face="helterskelter">Swarm u / t 18:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Like this one. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:31, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Archive
Can any user please Archive some comments to my second archive? Thanks --ChristianandJericho 09:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've set it to archive at 1 day... that should remove plenty of things quickly enough. Remember six months only starts once you stop editing, including here. And that includes other accounts, IP addresses, IP addresses that you think no-one will notice, editing by friends on your behalf, editing by unexpected accident... etc ... etc... etc... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, let me just make a few more dedications to the top of this page --ChristianandJericho 09:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Proposed major re-org at Mukkulathor
Greetings, based on your recent participation in the article, I'd like to invite you to: Talk:Mukkulathor. Thanks for your input! MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:47, 23 September 2011 (UTC)