User talk:Cigarlover

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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:AndreGarciaLogo.gif}
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File:ANDREGARCIA-GREEN-LOGO.jpg listed for discussion
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 * Actually, since the logo is no longer used on the Andre Garcia page, it no longer qualifies for fair use and will probably be deleted anyway. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 18:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Documentation of Attempt to Resolve content dispute around Neutrality
CigarLover stated > I changed the below verbiage out of courtesy to resolve this issue. However, it is important that I must document and show that your assessment is rather superficial and incorrect. See below for a detailed explanation.

Although the stated purpose of your edits was to "[a]djust tone of the content towards neutrality to remove any sense of advertisement or endorsement", you have failed in this purpose. Phrases and content from your edits that fail neutrality:
 * stated > Andre Garcia brand's guiding principle was one size does not fit all. (Andre Garcia's "guiding principle" is not encyclopedic, but can only be considered promotional)
 * CigarLover response > The brand was built on that guiding principle. So the deliberation made by you that the intened use is promotional is incorrect.


 * stated > Roy pioneered a spectrum of sizes... (consider "created" rather than "pioneered" as we have no evidence that he was, in fact, a pioneer in this design)
 * CigarLover response > The word 'pioneered' is not promotional, since there was no earlier precedence that existed in the cigar case which introduced a spectrum of sizes. So your assumption is incorrect.


 * stated > the company launched a unique zipper—enclosed top. (use of the word unique here is promotional)


 * CigarLover response > The word 'unique' is not promotional here, but rather appropriate to communicate to the reader the true intent of the word unique. Given this uniqueness, it was granted a patent in India and has one pending in the US.
 * US Patent Info Patent Ref:
 * Indian Patent Info, enter 329278 to search


 * stated >The urbane design incorporates a humidification stick neatly hidden in the bottom compartment. (urbane: promotional; neatly: promotional)
 * CigarLover response > I removed that phrase to avoid back-and-forth argument on this. But I do not agree with your opinion here. It is style of writing. See here https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/urbane


 * stated >The brand gained instant popularity (unverified and non-neutral)


 * CigarLover response > Disagree with your above statement. The narrative The brand gained instant popularity is well supported by the following data: Multiple prestigious journals which are highly regarded in the luxury world and within cigar enthusiasts had written favourable reviews on the product during its introduction years. These were not paid advertisements. e.g. Robb Report, Cigar Aficionado, European Cigar Cult, etc. See detailed citations in the Reference Section in Andre_Garcia_(brand)

stated >Also, you have deleted links to external content. I believe you have misunderstood our discussion about copyrights. It is perfectly allowable to link to copyrighted magazine content, as long as we link to the magazine's website, and don't copy the content to Wikipedia's website.
 * CigarLover response > I had added the external links, but you repeatedly went and deleted them.


 * stated > Because of all of these issues, I'm going to revert your changes. It appears that you may have motivation to bolster the reputation of the Andre Garcia brand. If you are editing on their behalf and have a conflict of interest with this topic (e.g. you work for them), you are required to disclose this conflict of interest. Regardless of any conflict, given the problems you've had editing this article so far, I would recommend that you refrain from editing further without first gaining consensus for your edits at the article's talk page first. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:19, 1 June 2021 (UTC)


 * CigarLover response > As I tried to explain above, your above assessment and various WP:No personal attacks now shows were based on superficial interpretation and show WP:Prejudice to an infrequent contributor like myself. You have since committed multiple WP:3RR which is against wiki policies, and I personally feel being WP:HOUNDed by you.


 * The contents that you are flagging as advertisement, are not my content. These are coming from the author of these publications, hence they were supported with citations.
 * You can go to an older version, and look up the actual publication and verify this for yourself.
 * Let me know how we can resolve this. I feel I am wasting my time updating a site after 10 yrs.
 * * stated > Cigarlover: your response raises two issues:
 * The content is your content because you added it to Wikipedia. If you did not write the words but are only copying them from the source, that's plagiarism; please write all content in your own words.
 * Not all sources are equally valid or neutral. Many magazines have as their purpose the promotion of brands (often based on payment from those brands). Such writing is called advertorial. It is up to the Wikipedia editor (you, in this case) to assess the source, and extract the facts while rejecting the promotion. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:56, 1 June 2021 (UTC)


 * CigarLover response > Ok, it is reasonable to remove words that you are flagging. Part of this has to do with the understanding of what is acceptable in the wiki. My original understanding (now I see it is a misunderstanding) is that contents, when coming from publications, are authentic, as it has been published and consumed by the public. I generally agree with what you are saying in terms of taking contents from anywhere with a grain of salt. However I would not apply this approach as the de-facto standard either.
 * For. eg, it makes no sense to rephrase "Just Do It" campaign launched by Nike, even though some may argue that it is promoting Nike. While Andre Garcia Brand is no Nike, but as authors and content moderators ( me and you ), we should look at this with the lens where paraphrasing contents does not destroy the article.


 * When I get time, I will re-visit and try to rephrase the terms that you flagged.
 * CigarLover response > I have since done more reading on wiki policies and while I gave you the earlier benefit of doubt and changed the verbiage, as explained above, I have provided evidence that refutes your earlier assessments and remarks. --Cigarlover (talk) 13:27, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

CigarLover stated > In the meantime, I would suggest, you to modify the content as you feel right, without deleting citations. I am frustrated that you have reverted all the clean citations that I added in my last edit that you reverted. Please do the necessary edits but restore the citations that I added.
 * I have not deleted your citations (except where a citation was used to source purely promotional content). I have merely formatted them properly so the link is applied to the text rather than standing as a separate entity. I have also consolidated duplicate citations into a single citation. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:17, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * CigarLover stated > Demonstrates my attempt to resolve issues amicably.

CigarLover stated > Can you pls take a look at the below revert. I see lot of content got deleted as part of this revert, include links to CII interviews and citations. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andre_Garcia_(brand)&diff=1026359360&oldid=1026358347 Once you have it restored, we can rephrase the verbiage that you flagged earlier to make them neutral. Please ping me once you get a chance to do so.
 * CigarLover stated > Demonstrates my attempt to resolve issues amicably.
 * response >Interviews are generally not considered reliable sources. Interview subjects have a motivation to promote themselves or their companies, and are rarely neutral on such topics. We prefer to rely on non-primary sources (such as company reviews that do not rely on company personnel providing information) for neutral information about companies. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 03:46, 2 June 2021 (UTC)


 * CigarLover response >I would not generalize that all interviews are biased, in fact it could be quite the contrary. If you watch the interview you will see what I am saying.
 * At this point, I would beg to differ with your broad generalization and would like to take us towards a more objective closure on this.
 * Unless you can pinpoint specifics on the interview that goes against the wiki principle, I would prefer to include that as a citation.

Refuting your earlier red-flags. I just wanted to point that it is acceptable to include external links and sources that may seem biased. Here is a good jog on ..what is acceptable as external citation and biased sources. Cigarlover ChatMe!09:18, 2 June 2021 (EST) ''However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.''

Edit Warring
I believe I have addressed all the items that you had flagged earlier. I have also addressed redundant citations that were caused due to unique ref names and added dates to those which otherwise appeared to be the same citation. Please let me know if you find anything else that you would like to discuss from the perspective of wiki guidelines and not based on your personal interpretations of what is acceptable. I would rather have you leave me a note here, so we can attempt to work together in some reasonable way to address any quality issue with the content moderation. What I find unacceptable is, you disregarding my edits based on your own personal judgments and interpretations of what is non-compliant. I have previously pointed out to you wiki's published guidelines on such matters. I hope we can agree to disagree in a decent way, and not abuse our voluntary moderator tenure.

I just wanted to bring to your attention, that you may have violated the WP:3RR and I feel being personally WP:HOUNDED by you. I would request you to refrain from further WP:HOUND and WP:3RR, instead engage in constructive discussions on the talk page in the future. You may want to review WP:AVOIDEDITWAR


 * I have neither edit warred (I have not reverted more than 3 times within a 24-hour period) nor have I hounded you (which would involve following you across several discussion fora, which I have not done), although I have evaluated your contributions both here and at Commons and attempted to address problems with them. The present state of the Andre Garcia (brand) page is better than when I found it, but still needs work. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; it should not reflect the tone of Cigar Afficionado or Robb Report which are written essentially to promote the subjects of their articles. Also, the format of the citations is incorrect. I have tried to correct them for you, but you insist on undoing my correction. Rather than continuing to butt heads over the issue, I will just point you to the cite web template and its cousin cite journal that can be used for magazine articles. I recommend that you learn how to use these templates to properly format web site and magazine citations.


 * stated > Since you do not appear to want any further help with this article, I will leave you to it. (Remember though, you don't own the article, and other editors will edit it, not always to your liking. That is the nature of Wikipedia.) Happy editing. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * CigarLover response > I am still learning the ropes of how to use wiki features in its true potential. This is work in progress, and I very much appreciate pointers similar to what you just now provided. However, your earlier approach of reverting articles and making premature conclusions and accusations on my intent was not the right approach by any means. You do not own the content either so you have no right to revert articles written by another author just because you may have got away doing this too many times, and feel it is right modus of operandi for a moderator. I have tried my best to stay objective in our communications and I took time to respond to earlier statements as you can see in the earlier section of this talk page. I am open to collaboration in the future and you are more than welcome to be a critique. I see progress already in our communication, and glad to see that you are ready to listen.--Cigarlover (talk) 15:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

June 2021
Hello, I'm Joshua Jonathan. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to Eckhart Tolle seemed less than neutral and has been removed. If you think this was a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. ''I kindly advice you to stop editing this article. It's clear that you're unable to contribute in a neutral, dispassionate way. Regards, Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  03:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)''   Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  03:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I just wanted to bring to your attention, that you have violated the WP:3RR.
 * It appears you have a strong bias in boosting ET's public impression by ensuring wide criticism of him is not included in the wiki article. At this point please take this as a notice, and refrain yourself any further reverts, to avoid escalation. Do you get paid or work for ET ? Cigarlover (talk) 12:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It appears you have a strong bias in boosting ET's public impression by ensuring wide criticism of him is not included in the wiki article. At this point please take this as a notice, and refrain yourself any further reverts, to avoid escalation. Do you get paid or work for ET ? Cigarlover (talk) 12:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Obviously you have no clue what WP:3RR means: I made a single series of edits at 21 june, and then at 24 june, repairing your trashing of the article with your WP:OR and violations of WP:NPOV. You, in contrast:
 * 14:18, 24 June 2021 "Updated with citation. Any revert will be escalated"
 * 14:45, 24 June 2021
 * 15:33, 24 June 2021
 * 15:44, 24 June 2021
 * Also, your comment User:Joshua Jonathan has past history of repeated edit warring 3RR behavior on multiple wiki articles and thus disrupting the neutrality of the articles. at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring (Result: Full protection)]] is higly offensive and without warrant. See also this comment diff: We need to escalate this, as this seems like a concerted effort by a 70$ Million dollar Eckhart Empire to create wiki articles that promote his image.. I'm hardly willing to accept or tolerate misplaced accuations like this. Go on like this, and you will be blocked very soon for sure.  Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  18:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * User talk:Joshua Jonathan - You have an authoritative style and approach with your edits. The content in ET's page is superflous and infalted with praises that does not cross check with even the cited references. Clearly this is work of deceit and you are now protecting that work. You are not an authority in wiki. Please stay objective. You cannot delete content that has valid citation and can be cross checked while protecting uncorroborated content. You are clearly NOT working towards the interest of wiki.--Cigarlover (talk) 18:13, 24 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Okay, take this as a clear warning: stop casting unsubstantiated WP:ASPERSIONS. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  18:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * User talk:Joshua Jonathan : You will need disclose WP:DISCLOSE your affiliation with Eckhart's organization and record that you are not affiliated and paid WP:PE by his organization. Until you do that, it is clear that your edits fall under WP:COI--Cigarlover (talk) 20:39, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Please stop attacking other editors. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people.  Acroterion   (talk)   22:55, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I have not attacked anyone. Please see active discussion in Eckhart's talk page where I am trying my best to co-operate and discuss issues. Thanks to .--Cigarlover (talk) 23:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Your comment immediately above my warning is a personal attack. Stop doing that. Drop the stick.  Acroterion   (talk)   23:08, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I apologize if I appeared to be unintentionally attacking. My intent is to make sure, the edit warriors disclose their affiliations before we can have a discussion that is free of WP:COI. Can you please step in and also help us here.

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either: This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.
 * 1) Add four tildes  ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment, or
 * 2) With the cursor positioned at the end of your comment, click on the signature button OOUI_JS_signature_icon_LTR.svg located above the edit window.

Thank you. —C.Fred (talk) 01:41, 25 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Second warning: "edit warriors" is also a personal attack. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  05:08, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Third warning: refrain from comments like "There is a strong wall of resistance that is keeping this page as a marketing tool for Eckhart." diff. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  06:24, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Talkpages
Could you please be more carefull when editing talkpages? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  05:59, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Use indentation
 * Don't add your comments inbetween the comments of other persons
 * Sign your comments

June 2021
 You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours for making personal attacks towards other editors. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page:.  Acroterion   (talk)   17:01, 25 June 2021 (UTC)


 * You've been amply warned against pushing aspersions against other editors.  Acroterion   (talk)   17:01, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

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