User talk:Cimicifugia

Dark Ages
I noticed you are sending out messages to certain editors who have worked on Dark Ages in the past. Just to let you know, this is against the canvassing guideline. Thanks.--Cúchullain t/ c 22:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi - I didn't know that. What is the proper procedure for trying to stop a few people from dominating page with a single POV?--Cimicifugia (talk) 22:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)cimicifugia


 * Check out the page on dispute resolution. It will tell you that talk page discussion is the first step, but you'll have to be less confrontational than you've been (ie, no attacking or disparaging folks you don't agree with.).--Cúchullain t/ c 07:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree about the domination, although Cuchullain is right about assuming good faith on everyone's part. I consider that the page has improved in two regards: the title shows that it is about the term, not the epoch in Western European history (or more generally), and it shows how to find the page about the epoch.  This isn't ideal -- I made the same "error" you did when I first went there -- but at least it's easy, IF you happen to notice the title and link at the top.  (That isn't how I read WP articles, though.)


 * There is a mechanism to have a page locked against editing for a period of time, until all editors who wish to do so have weighed in. I do not know how to invoke that, but persistent reversion by one or a few people is one of the grounds for it, I believe. Jmacwiki (talk) 03:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

NYT
Hi and thanks for your major contribution to the NYT article. I see another editor has removed the section, and as one among many controversies, perhaps it had undue weight. However, I see there's an article entitled Criticism of The New York Times which is dedicated to controversies; that could be the place for it. Best regards -- Timberframe (talk) 23:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of The New York Times and the Holocaust


The article The New York Times and the Holocaust has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Personal essay with dicey citations.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. PhGustaf (talk) 21:43, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of The New York Times and the Holocaust
I have nominated The New York Times and the Holocaust, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/The New York Times and the Holocaust. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. PhGustaf (talk) 18:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring
Please be aware of the rules on edit warring here WP:3rr particularly the limited number of reverts.Bali ultimate (talk) 14:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring report
I've mentioned you here:

Blocked
 You have been blocked for edit-warring on The New York Times and the Holocaust. To contest this block, please reply here on your talk page by adding the text along with the reason you believe the block is unjustified, or email the blocking administrator. For alternative methods to appeal, see Appealing a block. --  tariq abjotu  23:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * BTW, adding a false unblock request to another user's page can be considered disruptive editing. It adds that user's page to the unblock queue, and therefore wastes the time of the unblock review admins.  In other words, do not do that again...especially just after coming off a block for disruptive editing. Syrthiss (talk) 13:41, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi - Reminder. not everyone editing wiki is as familiar with these rules as yourselves.  isn't one of the rules not to assume ill intent?  i did read he guidelines.  perhaps i did not understand.  i didn't see a rule that said not to dicuss content.  i saw this rule:

"•	If your request doesn't help us find out whether your block was justified or not, the reviewing administrator may decline your request out of hand. •	In complicated situations, the reviewing administrator may not want to spend a long time reading your whole talk page and all of your contributions. He or she may instead choose to review only the issues that you raise in your unblock request. Arguments made elsewhere may not be read."

I understood it to mean that my request should help you find out if the block was justified by discussing the reasons for the revert war. since it is said you wouldn't want to read the whole talk page and all my contributions, i thought it was asking me to summarize the key elements from the talk page and some of the key issues in the contributions. Now you are saying that nothing on the talk page or from my contributions is relevent? that the only issue is whether i and this other user were reverting each others work? please explain. i am trying to abide by the rules.

if the only issue to be discussed re blocking is whether or not there was a revert war, yes there was. which raises a question. how do i cope with the content issues I raise in my unblock request? where is the proper place to post these problems? there are only two of us working on this page, and we disagree completely. no consensus has been reached. when bali ultimate failed to get the page deleted in its entirety, he has succeeded in deleting most of the content and meaning. working together has shown no signs of success. now what do i do, since i am not allowed to undo his work?

speakiing of which, i don't understand the next thing i am being accused of. i don't know what a 'false unblock request' is. i don't know what BTW means either, for that matter. i though tariq's name was listed so that i could contact him re my being blocked.


 * BTW = by the way. The false unblock request was because you pasted your unblock request onto Tariq's page.  This wasn't particularly helpful because (1) since you were able to post it there, you weren't blocked anymore,  (2) Tariq was not himself blocked, (3) doing so caused Tariq's page to go into the unblock queue and ultimately led to me reading through your 20 page summary until I got to the end and realized Tariq hadn't posted it himself and was not himself blocked.  I realize that you may have done it inadvertently which is why I assumed good faith and didn't reblock you, but part of my duties was to then come and tell you that you had misstepped and to not do that again.  I left your request on Tariq's page so he may or may not reply to it, at his discretion. Syrthiss (talk) 14:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * thanks for the polite explanation. i realize i am unblocked. however, as bali ultimate keeps reverting my work (more cleverly than i, since he didn't to it three times in 24 hrs), i want to deal with the problem of having him destroying the page instead of just going back into an editing war.  i am actually making a request to have bali ultimate stopped from reverting my work. is that possible and how do i go about it?
 * You discuss the content issues on the article talk page. People will make a consensus about the content. The article follows the consensus. You simply raise the issue on the talk page, and no one is supposed to remove it from there unless your material is attacking or a copyright violation (I don't think it's the latter, but you could be a bit nicer). You cannot make someone stop reverting your work.  — fetch ·  comms   02:01, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

May 2010
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to The New York Times and the Holocaust, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you. PhGustaf (talk) 15:44, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

hi gustaf - the place for this kind of comment is on teh discussion page. i put in the superior version of this arrticle and further improved it, and have explained my improvements. if you don't like them, you're supposed to discuss the changes with me on the article discussion page and reach a consensus with me.Cimicifugia (talk) 16:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia


 * That's not how it works (see WP:BRD). You made changes, they were removed - it's then YOUR requirement to try and build WP:Consensus for your changes, not the other way around: if you don't get new consensus, don't re-add them, or else your next block is longer ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 16:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

i am not allowed to make changes on teh page unless the people who are trashing it agree, but they are allowed to make changes? i have to make comments on the discussion page but the other editorors on the article don't have to use the discussion page? and if i re-add changes, I am blocked, but if they re-add their changes they are not blocked? is that really what you are saying? that at wiki we are all equal but some pigs are more equal than others? i must be misunderstanding you.Cimicifugia (talk) 00:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia

when i reinstated text, it was deleted within minutes, now my fellow 'editors' are not commenting. Bwilkins wrote i cannot work on the article until i get permission from these two 'editors' who wanted the topic deleted, what he calls consensus. so if they don't answer, there's no concensus and i can't put in changes? am i understanding this right? is bwilkins an administrator - is this really the rule?Cimicifugia (talk) 23:19, 28 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia

Replies to requests for help
Hi there Cimicifugia, I'm sorry that you are having trouble, and I hope I can help explain.

You used 3 s on this page - two at first, and one while I was writing this reply. I believe that the comments I have made below help answer all three questions;

The principle of WP:BRD is a three-step process - Bold, Revert, Discuss.

1. Bold - we encourage all editors to make bold changes to pages - it is the Enyclopaedia that anyone can edit.

2. Revert - if any other user disagrees with your edit, they may remove it.

3. Discuss - talk about it, with the person who removed the edit and with other editors. Form a consensus, and go with that.

There is no deadline - it does not matter if it takes a few days, or even weeks, to come to an agreement. Wikipedia will be around for a very long time, so if the page is 'wrong' for a while, it really does not matter.

It is essential that you try to follow this process - even if others do not. If other editors refuse to enter the discussion, that is their prerogative. I suggest you seek the opinion of other editors - in this specific case, I suggest that you put a short note in a new section on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history - make a new section there, saying something like;

Please see the discussion in Talk:The New York Times and the Holocaust. I have suggested some edits which have been reverted, so I would welcome comments from others to help form a consensus.

Try that, and give it a few days. If you cannot form a consensus that way, then there are further options - asking for a third opinion, asking the mediation cabal, and others - as detailed in WP:DISPUTE.

The absolutely essential thing to understand is, you must wait for a consensus before changing the page again - regardless of the actions of others. See WP:NOTTHEM.

Please, have a cup of tea and try to stay calm.

We will help you in any possible way, as long as you follow the guidelines, and you remain calm and civil. If you do not understand something, please ask.

For more help, you can either;


 * Leave a message on my own talk page;
 * Use a - please create a new section at the end of your own talk page, put , and ask your question - remember to 'sign' your name by putting ~ at the end;
 * Talk to us live, with this or this.

The last of those is particularly useful - please try it; pop in now and say hello.  Chzz  ►  02:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Deletion and consensus
I think I already had a consensus to keep my page and improve it, not turn it into a stub. There was a discussion on deleting it (who takes part in this? Are these all administrators?) and the result was:

The result was keep. Point of view and essay-like attributes can be fixed, and the discussion has shown that the topic is moderately notable. Regards, Arbitrarily0 (TALK) 03:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The support for the article, five comments: Keep. An important subject, worthy of coverageSteve, Sm8900 (talk)

Keep. Well sourced and a notable topic. This article gives more depth of coverage than would a paragraph Racepacket

Keep. An important subject about the reactions of US mass media to HolocaustMilowent

Keep The references strongly indicate that this is a notable subject. I do not think it is correct to say that the entire article is sourced to the one book; but the book is over-represented in the article. The article needs some work, the subject of US Press coverage of the holocaust is covered broadly, just look around. The article needs work, no question, but if you look for press articles about this subject, they are legionMkativerata

Keep An article on a notable subject backed by appropriate reliable and verifiable sourcesAlansohn

Delete comments, two: Strong Delete. As currently written, it's just an essay (and not a very good one at that). It's plagued with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH problems (as well as clear ax-to-grind WP:NPOV issues) but it's difficult to imagine how this could be corrected through editing. If it were boiled down to the notable and the reliably sourced, it would just be a stub of an article, a paragraph or two in length. Really, the entire article seems to be a summary of a single source, the book by Leff (which also accounts for almost all of the cites in the article). The claims and opinions of that author are repeated as fact, producing ridiculously non-NPOV language like "...Sulzeberger’s firmly held personal beliefs that it was wrong to ever treat Jews as a people" or "The paper of record deliberately hid the Holocaust from the American people." Since this article exists to simply repeat the thesis of a single book (with a little original research thrown in as well) it's not possible for mere editing to make it compliant with Wikipedia policies.--Loonymonkey

Delete this is effectively a topic made up one day by a wikipedia editor. It is not treated in any depth by any reliable sources as a topic of its own. Allowing this kind of amateur scholarship to be invented here (and a bad job of it, I agree with loonymonkey) is a constant failing of wikipedia. To take one slanted book and paint the entire sulzeberger family as raging anti-semites who deliberately hid the reality of the holocaust is the sort of rank distortion of the historical record that occurs whenever this kind of invention/OR is allowed to pass.Bali ultimate

So, the votes to keep and improve v delete were 5 to 2. However, the 2 contributors who don’t want the article at all have not allowed me to improve it –they keep deleting my improved version and substituting an inaccurate stub. As loonymonkey says, he doesn’t agree it can be improved through editing, which I have done. He says at most he would accept a one or two paragraph article, with the main source of information deleted. He did NOT get consensus on this, but he has gone ahead and done it anyway. Do I have to get consensus over and over? This can’t be right.Cimicifugia (talk) 03:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia

(edit conflict - I wrote the below reply prior to your adding the second question)


 * The decision to keep the article is a totally separate thing. It has nothing to do with your current suggested improvements.


 * It has nothing to do with administrators; all of Wikipedia works on decisions made by the entire community. Everyone is very welcome to participate in deletion discussions - and it would be absolutely great if you could help out a little yourself - head over to Articles for deletion/Log/2010 May 29 (for today), and in each entry, you can 'edit' and add your comments - such as "Keep, I think this is notable ~ " or whatever you like.


 * At the end of deletion discussions, an administrator looks at the arguments, and tries to work out the consensus - and if it is to delete, the admin deletes it - that is their role - to push the button to delete, but only based on the opinions of the community - that's how everything works.


 * So, with regards to your suggestion - yes, I'm afraid you do need to get a new consensus. If a suggestion is not removed by other editors, then no discussion is required. However, each time there is a dispute about a suggestion, it is necessary to stop, discuss it, and reach agreement.


 * I honestly am sorry that this is difficult to understand at first.


 * We try to keep Wikipedia as simple as possible - but that is hard, with articles and  users.


 * To answer you directly - yes, you need to get a consensus every time there is a dispute. That is the way Wikipedia operates. Thank you for your understanding, and please do continue to ask as many questions as you like. Best,  Chzz  ►  03:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Seeking other editors
i am going to follow your suggestion to seek more contributors. is there a reason you suggested teh military history page instead of a page relating to the holocaust? i don't think military historians will know much about media coverage of the holocaust. do you think i should avoid the holocaust page because there are hostile people on that page or do they not have a discussion group? how would i find it?Cimicifugia (talk) 03:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia


 * The reason I suggested MilHist was, that is the most active, largest project group on Wikipedia. They have tremendous resources, and it is very active. We have hundreds of project groups, but some are very quiet, and unlikely to provide a timely response.


 * I certainly encourage you to ask on any and all project groups that may be appropriate.


 * To find them...project groups are normally listed on the discussion page of articles. So, if you look at the talk page of some other articles in similar topic areas, you should see, at the top, which project groups they belong to.


 * I am no expert in this area, but I will try to illustrate with an example, below, in a few minutes.  Chzz  ►  03:37, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * As an example, to illustrate a way of finding more contributors to help build a consensus and to help improve the article:


 * I just looked at the article The Holocaust, which is about the WWII genocide as a whole. The discussion page is Talk:The Holocaust, and at the top of that page, you can see a line saying, This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. Click [show] for further details. Clicking 'show' reveals links to several project groups, and each of them has an associated talk page;


 * WikiProject European history
 * WikiProject Germany
 * WikiProject Jewish history
 * WikiProject Judaism
 * WikiProject LGBT studies
 * WikiProject Discrimination
 * WikiProject Death


 * I remain utterly neutral when I give advice, and so I offer no opinion about which groups may or may not be most appropriate. You might be surprised (as I was) to see LGBT listed there, but...I just list what I see. It is up to you to decide which of the above projects, or others, may be appropriate to ask for help.


 * Please remember that the above was designed to be an illustration of how you can find related project groups. Please do look on the talk pages of other articles, and see which groups they are in. I only chose "The Holocaust" as it seemed the most obvious related article, to me.


 * I encourage you to also be neutral in your choices of where to ask and in your comment on their talk pages - do not, for example, say "I have made THIS SUGGESTED IMPROVEMENT and it has been rejected for no reason at all" - instead, just ask them to "Please see the discussion and add comments, to help form a consensus".


 * Asking on related project-groups in a neutral way is usually acceptable, and a good idea - but if you do have concerns about introducing a bias from the editors that frequent them, refer to Canvassing which has some tips.


 * Best of luck,  Chzz  ►  03:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * other questions. what does it mean to sign up for a wikiproject group? what results from signing up?Cimicifugia (talk) 14:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia

Leave messages at the bottom, not the top, of Talk pages
Hi. When you start a new discussion, as you did at WikiProject Judaism, you should start the discussion at the bottom of the page, not the top. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

User Page
most people choose to remain anonymous it seems. do you think there are advantages to my describing myself on my user page - that is, my qualifications, areas of expertise and interest?Cimicifugia (talk) 14:07, 29 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia
 * on my user page, i let people know some info about me, if you have any special skills what might help wikipedia, feel free to add them. You then might also get asked to help with some articles. :) S ophie  ( Talk ) 14:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Understanding Edit Warring
can you explain the rule 'reverting vandalism is not edit warring.'Cimicifugia (talk) 15:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia
 * Please see the fourth bullet point here. Regards,  7  03:35, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't use edits to fight with other editors – disagreements should be resolved through discussion. If there is any question about a user's edits being vandalism, there should be a discussion whether it is vandalism. Do not continue reverting past 3 reverts a day and have a civil discussion with the other user.  It can be helpful to ask another user their opinion.   mo no so ck   03:38, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Reverting obvious vandalism – edits which any well-intentioned user would immediately agree constitute vandalism, such as page blanking and adding offensive language. If it is "questionable" vandalism, discuss. When in doubt, discuss.   mo no so ck   03:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * help meblanking is defined as "Removing all or significant parts of a page's content without any reason, or replacing entire pages with nonsense. Sometimes referenced information or important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary. However, significant content removals are usually not considered to be vandalism where the reason for the removal of the content is readily apparent by examination of the content itself, or where a non-frivolous explanation for the removal of apparently legitimate content is provided, linked to, or referenced in an edit summary." so the removal of referenced information, important and verifiable references without valid reasons given in summary.  is a valid reason defined anywhere, or do i assume it means a referenced, verifiable reason?  if blanking happened, does it mean one does have the right to revert?Cimicifugia (talk) 04:02, 7 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia
 * It's mostly a judgment call. If someone blanks a valid and/or referenced point, then by all means revert it. If they remove trivial, unsourced, vandalism, etc, then don't revert it. C T J F 8 3  pride 04:08, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

AN/I thread
Bali ultimate initiated an AN/I thread about The New York Times and the Holocaust, but failed to notify you, as he should have done. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 17:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * i can't find the an/i notice. if it isn't on teh board anymore, is there a way to find it?Cimicifugia (talk) 03:26, 7 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia
 * Please see this archive page.  7  03:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

i need help with a disruptive editor

 * I want to start wiki proceedings to complain about Bali's disruptive editing. my complaints consist of his removal of most content without comment, his pov editing, his attacks on me personally, his not responding to issues raised on teh discussion page so that no collobaration is possible.  the rules are very complex and voluminous.  Am I supposed to put the following on his talk page first as warnings? I haven't reverted anything and don't intend to, as i am trying to work collaboratively and get consensus before returning to original version of article and improving from that base.  it has proven impossible to work with Bali and his tag team, as they do not seem to be sincere.  i would like Bali blocked from the page for disruptive editing. is this possible?  what is the first step? please advise.


 * No I would not. The warnings are to inform new users and possible vandals of policies. See WP:Do not template the regulars. I would explain to this user that you want to know why your content is removed. If the user refuses to give you a answer you could take it to WP:ANI and request intervention, or I could try and help if you like. I hope this helps. --Alpha Quadrant (talk) 16:02, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Friendly advice: read WP:TLDR. If you have a point to make in a discussion, you should be able to make it in a screenfull or two.  Trust me on this: nobody reads your multipage screeds. PhGustaf (talk) 18:26, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest he take this up at AN/I. Here's the relevant page WP:ANI to ask for assistance in having me and my "tag team... blocked from the page for disruptive editing." I urge you to do so in fact -- either that, or shut up and stop personalizing this.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Edits at Talk:The New York Times and the Holocaust
Hi! A couple of things:
 * (1) It's generally considered impolite to post disproportionately long messages on talk pages, as it can be seen as trying to minimise the views of other editors or give undeserved weight to your viewpoint simply by taking up more page space. It also makes the page unreadable and dissuades new editors from entering the discussion.  Consensus is that, generally, if you can't make your point in a couple of paragraphs you probably didn't have a very good argument.  I have therefore collapsed your most recent discussion points on that page to ensure they are still available for editors to read without allowing them to derail the discussion.
 * (2) The merge discussion at that page is not concerned with the merits of the material. I think all editors agree that there is encyclopedic content on the topic of the NYT's treatment of the holocaust.  The argument is that that material should appear at the page Criticism of The New York Times, and not in a separate article, as per WP:FORK.  You might get further if you address your arguments to that policy.
 * (3) Are you the same editor as 173.52.182.160? If so, please remember to sign in before making edits.  Editing anonymously when you have a registered account is contrary to WP:SOCK and can be grounds for blocking.  If this is an innocent mistake, that's fine; please revisit your unsigned edits and make sure they are correctly attributed to your registered account. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:07, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not sure that Cimicifugia has enough editing experience to understand the implications of your final accusation. We are unrelated users. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 00:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Several editors, including myself, have given Cimicifugia pointers to relevant policy pages, but he shows no sign of having read them. I'll keep trying, but he seems sufficiently agenda-driven that it's not likely to help. PhGustaf (talk) 01:49, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * PhGustaf, since when has accusing an editor of being a SPA and POV pusher helpful advice? And DustFormsWords was worse, by calling this user a sock. Amazing. You guys are treating a new used like shit, and should be ashamed of your selves. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 13:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * first: Thank you for your defense #173. i do feel bullied, and at one point i did wonder if i cared to contribute to wiki any longer since bali and his cohorts have made it so unpleasant and actually impossible to put in straightforward,, well referenced information on an important topic - that is not the least bit controversial in the field of holocaust studies.Cimicifugia (talk) 22:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia

my own question - why is this discussion going on on my talk page instead of the discussion page? shouldn't this debate about the issues involved in the merge discussion be on the article's discusion page? Cimicifugia (talk) 22:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia
 * It just turned out that way. It doesn't really matter.   m o n o   22:15, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I only see the discussion about you here, not the article itself. The first message was directed toward you only, right?  — fetch ·  comms   22:17, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

An/I
I have mentioned you, here Bali ultimate (talk) 13:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Bali ultimate posted the above after, not before, he reported me to the an/I page. aren't the rules that he is supposed to discuss his complaint with me first? doesn't discuss mean waiting for a reply? do i have grounds for complaint about his not telliing me his complaints first and allowing me time to respond? about his telling me he'd reported me only after doing so?

this whole thing is ridiculous: His complaint is about me seeking help in formulating a complaint. he is angry that i used terms such as 'hostile' in characterizing his editing. I was seeking feedback to make my planned an/i complaint rule-compliant, readable and neutral. i was going to improve it, then post it on his page first (that's what i'm supposed to do, right? or you just have a few words warning like bali did above?), then go to an/i. since he reported me immediately to an/i, i put in my plea for help there without having had an opportunity to improve it. was that the advisable thing to do? i need help in how to handle this very experienced and hostile editor, who is quick to use every wiki procedure against my attempts to seek redress correctly.Cimicifugia (talk) 15:15, 18 June 2010 (UTC)cimcifugia


 * As this is now on that noticeboard, please ask questions and respond there, where it will be dealt with. Thanks,  Chzz  ► 15:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

June 2010
Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:04, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

is the threat above okay by wiki rules? can i really be threatened with peramanet banishment for asking for help in how to follow wiki rules? who is sarekofvulcan? does he have some authority? is this an official warning from wiki administration, or just a threat from another wikipedian following this dispute? how can I tell?Cimicifugia (talk) 15:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia
 * Any wikipedian can warn another one when that editor is behaving against policy. You might also want to read up on the difference between "blocking" and "banning".--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

how do you get problem editors blocked without complaining about them?
how do you get problem editors blocked without complaining about them? i am at my wits end. I asked for help on the Judaism project page to get feedback on a proposed complaint so i could improve it so it would be readable, accurate and neutral, and within an hour I've beened attacked/warned that doing so is violating rules and threatened with being permanently blocked. this whole system seems stacked against newcomers. is this really how wiki works? banned for seeking advice? or is the person above threatening me against the rules and should I report him as well? this is so confusing and unpleasant. forgive me for whining.Cimicifugia (talk) 15:07, 18 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia


 * I notice that you posted here, on the admin noticeboard, so perhaps this has already been dealt with?


 * It is important to note that two wrongs do not make a right; I see that you, too, have been cautioned above.


 * I suggest you read WP:DISPUTE, WP:COOL, and WP:NAM. Have a cup of WP:TEA or something; there is no deadline; no rush.


 * It is often best to simply step away from the incident area for a while - work on other, unrelated areas. After a bit of time, things often calm down.


 * Please note, in writing this reply, I have - deliberately - not looked at the details of it; I do not take sides or form opinions, and I would give the same advice to the other editor.


 * So - please consider if it really worth pursuing this matter - what possible benefit will be gained, and how it will help make Wikipedia better. If it will not, then, perhaps you could just forget about it, and move on to better, different things.


 * If you do insist on pursing things though, then there are many options available - probably the best place to start is Wikiquette alerts, or the mediation cabal. However, please do not shop around - see what happens (if anything) on the current noticeboard first. Give it time; relax.


 * Please do ask for more help if you need it.  Chzz  ► 15:24, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * i was cautioned because i am inexperienced and was entrapped. the hostile editor i am dealing with deleted the entire article and substituted a polemical, inaccurate stub. the rules of wiki are voluminous, arcane, byzantiine and not at all user friendly. they are easy to misunderstand for a beginner and easy to manipulate maliciously by an experienced wikipedian like bali. from my reading of the definition of vandalism, i thought bali deleting the entire article was against the rules and my putting it back with minor changes was completely legal. he basically entrapped me into a revert war. he was not punished, but  i was not just cautioned, but banned and told I must get consensus to make any further changes. since then the article has been frozen.


 * your other advice would be useful if this was an ordinary dispute with well meaning people who disagree. or if the topic was indeed trivial.  it is not appropriate to walk away from an article on the Holocaust because there are malicious and hostile editors who want to falsify the record or, what is happening here, ban basic facts on the Holocaust.  this is not a topic where it is acceptable to let the bad guys win - for me. is it okay with wiki administrators?


 * i don't think it is appropriate to use mediation with what are functionally Holocaust deniers. this has been going on for six months. posts asking for consensus are ignored. any post they see as a challenge is answered within minutes. i did walk away for several months, and more recently for days at a time and there is no relief. there has to be another level of getting help at wiki for truly intractable problems like unreasonable, malicious attacks on Holocaust information.


 * not taking sides or even knowing the topic of the dispute is fine when the dispute is between two sincere editors. but what if the dispute is about incontrovertible, non-controversial Holocaust history and editors who have dedicated themselves to keep it out of wiki and also to drive sincere editors off the page, if not to discourage them from ever participating in wiki again? this is much bigger than my individual problem or this one article.  this is a wiki problem of how to deal with malicious spoilers.Cimicifugia (talk) 15:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 24 hours for persisting in personal attacks, particularly "Holocaust denier", after being warned by multiple editors. Please stop. You are welcome to make useful contributions after the block expires. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * from wordIQ. definition "Holocaust denial is the claim that the mainstream historical version of the Holocaust is either highly exaggerated or completely falsified." Bali and his cohorts have claimed repeatedly that the mainstream historical version of Holocaust history being covered in this article on the New York Times and the Holcaust is false or exaggerated, and they have denied including authortative facts, figures and quotes from the New York Times itself, from the directors of the Holocaust museum and the Wyman Center for Holocaust studies.  you may disagree with my use of this term, but it is a use about which reasonable people may differ.  i am not going to apologize for using it.  the apology is owed to me for being abused for speaking out for the truth about Holocaust history.  the fact that bali admits he has been called a holocaust denier before should be an absolute red flag. this is not an accusation people make for no reason. i have too much respect for Holocaust history to do that - something the administrators at Wiki evidently lack. you should all be ashamed of yourselves.  this is a scandal.Cimicifugia (talk) 23:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia
 * The Holocaust happened. It was a terrible thing.  When I read the article you've been creating, it seems to take the form of using citations to support an opinion (the form of a personal essay), rather than a simple statement of facts about a subject (the form of an enyclopedia article).  I am not a Holocaust denier for being concerned that what you are writing might not be quite right for an encyclopedia, though it would be very useful in a collection of persuasive essays about the Holocaust.  I can tell that you have very strong feelings about the Holocaust, and I respect that- most decent people do.  But if your strong feelings about the Holocaust make it impossible for you to write in a neutral way about that subject, why not, when your block expires, try some of the other subjects that you're interested in, and then come back to this difficult article after you've learned a little bit more about Wikipedia?  I've often had editing disputes that made me so angry that I had to simply go work on something else until I was able to interact reasonably calmly with the people I disagreed with, more than once.  It happens to all of us at some point- it's just unfortunate that it's happening to you as one of your first experiences on Wikipedia.  -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This is by far one of the worst blocks I've seen this year. I'm appalled. I do not understand how BaliUltimate is allowed to use vulgar language, is allowed to be incivil, is allowed to attack others and not be blocked?? But yet, innocents who are trying to build an encyclopedia get blocked? What is wrong with this picture?  Caden  cool  00:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's true that User:Bali ultimate has not always been a paragon of courtesy during the course of this disagreement. But this user's entire unblock request consists of explaining that User:Bali ultimate really is a holocaust denier- something which she's been warned is a serious insult, and something which I don't see any solid reason to believe is true.  How could I unblock her based on that?  -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:35, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. So the message is clear that it's okay to treat newbies (and experienced editors) who oppose Bali's biased POV like dirt? So it's okay to be disruptive (as long as your Bali) and censor historical, truthful facts, that are and can be sourced? It's okay to be abusive to other editors and break the rules just as long as your like Bali? It's okay to protect the NYT, (who admit they were wrong) by censoring the truth in order to not make them look bad? In other words, editors like Bali are valued and respected? Wow! No wonder all the good newbies quit!  Caden  cool  00:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This block is only about this user. If you think someone else should be blocked, you should make that point at WP:ANI, where someone is likely to see it.  -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:28, 19 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Cimicifugia, I agree Bali has been at best uncivil, but there are lines you cannot cross, and calling someone a Holocaust Denier, much like calling them a Racist, is just always over the top even if you believe it. I'd strongly suggest you A) apologize B) make it plain you understand the problem and C) just ignore him. Hobit (talk) 19:42, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Nazism in the Middle East
I have nominated Nazism in the Middle East, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Nazism in the Middle East. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Stonemason89 (talk) 13:46, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

ANI
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Stonemason89 (talk) 13:46, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

May I help you
Hi. May I help you? I see you running into a number of brick walls. If you would like, contact me and I will attempt to help to understand things better. Basically, it looks like you are/will be an excellent Wikpedia editor, but you need a little guidance/experience on how to get your edits to stick. Feel free to contact me, either here or by sending me an email message, and I'll try to explain things. Okay? Good luck. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
Hi, You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)