User talk:Citizensunshine

Manhattan Valley
Can you include a publication date on your New Yorker reference? The article title is otherwise of little use. Thanks. Uucp 18:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. The article now references and links to all the periodicals relied on. Citizen Sunshine 20:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Citizen - In looking over this article, I'm a little baffled by the mention of the Sing & Sing market. Is this really a landmark? In what way? I grew up on 98th Street, and I don't know this place at all. - Corporal Tunnel (talk) 18:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Church-of-Ascension-107th.jpg
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Image copyright problem with Image:Church-of-Ascension-107th.jpg
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Our project
Good afternoon Citizensunshine. I noted a recent edit you made to the Zeta Psi page, reverting vandalism. Thanks for that.

Should you have further interest in Greek societies, we'd welcome your participation on our shared project, the Fraternities and Sororities Project.

For many of us, these institutions represent a very impactful period in our lives. I know of several chapter advisors among the regular 300 participants, along with general alumni and undergrads that are Wiki-savvy. We presently keep an eye on 1,500 or so Greek pages, while a fairly substantial number of recent or dormant local chapters don't make the cut. There are perhaps 6,000 locals that do not have a Wikipedia article, and maybe 50 that do - mostly at Ivy League schools. Long ago, the Baird's Manual editors decided to include as national groups those societies that had three or more chapters, or locals that met a certain bar of longevity: ten years or more. We follow that same logic.

The Project page lists several items on our To Do list, but among them are:


 * 1) Review any of our watched pages for vandalism.
 * 2) Update chapter information for the many lists of chapters.
 * 3) Write an article to list the Greeks on a particular campus. 50 of these have been done, so far.
 * 4) Research a new article for a page that is missing. On our watchlist, these show up as red links.
 * 5) Vote on whether to keep a contested page or not.

There is a debate among editors on Wikipedia about whether to aggressively delete articles or allow their inclusion, based on a notoriously fickle determination of NOTIBILITY. Once an article is factually and cleanly written, I personally favor Inclusion, in order to make life easier for future researchers. Especially for fraternity, sorority and collegiate society articles.

If this last issue is of interest, you may wish to weigh in on a recent discussion of an "Article for Deletion" or AfD: Two or three of these crop up each month. One we are currently discussing is Articles for deletion/Delta Beta Phi. Voting is simple, and the instructions are at the top. Just add a line, with your vote, to Keep or Delete (or some other option) bolded at the start of the line.

Whatever you choose to do, we would welcome your participation in this Greek-friendly project. Join by adding your name here. Jax MN (talk) 23:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the invitation, Jax MN. I've added my name.  How does participation work?  On the particular matter you raised, this AfD thing seems rather dangerous -- I hadn't thought it was used so summarily for items remotely close to the line of notability.  I tend to agree with you, as my comments indicate, that we shouldn't be deleting true and sourced information on some amorphous concept of notability that is very difficult to define, and reserve AfDs for either malicious articles or those wholly without demonstrable factual basis. I'd never heard of Delta Beta Phi before, but I'm glad to have been introduced to it: a very minor but interesting piece of fraternal history.


 * Nicely, nicely done. Thank you for your very helpful argument about this.  The particular user that offered this AfD has a low-level campaign to similarly delete lots of these.  I'd run into them before, and the capricious, random AfD PRODs were just as you describe: unnecessary, and harmful to future research.  These fraternity articles aren't harming anyone.  Wikipedia is poorer for only allowing the major organizations to have a page...  This is why I went long in my earlier response to them, citing the infamous "deletion" versus "inclusion" battle.  --I'm not going to convince the person who nominated this AfD, but it might convince some lurkers to switch to a more inclusive position.  Thank you, thank you.  And I don't have a particular dog in this fight, not any connection to Delta Beta Phi.  But it is a line in the sand.  Now that the F&S Project is heating up to more activity, my plan is to restore some of the already-deleted pages, that are otherwise good articles, maybe only needing some polishing.


 * To your question, the project page has a list of some suggestions of things that need fixin'. About three months ago I began adding Greek pages that were not yet linked to the Project's watchlist.  That list has now jumped from about 300 articles to now about 1,150, with some redlinks.  The reference I recently added to Delta Beta Phi is the continuation of Baird's Manual, now significantly expanded online from the printed 1991 version. It is being curated by Pi Beta Phi's national historian and Greek scholar, Fran Becque.  Adding that reference alone to many of the pages that need more citations would be a big help.  On many of the watchlist pages I've created a to do list on the talk page.  I was moving from A-Z, and started adding that particular update about midway through the alphabet.  So I have to go back and put the  template into most of the pages between Alpha and perhaps Mu. Jax MN (talk) 08:35, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Another AfD has cropped up. I commented there; you might find it interesting. See Articles for deletion/Kappa Sigma (Philippines). Of course the Watchlist has several articles about Philippine (and Puerto Rican, and German...) fraternities, so prior to my comments, I did some research. There are several category pages that list an extensive selection of Latino fraternities:
 * List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines
 * List of fraternities and sororities in Puerto Rico
 * Concilio Interfraternitario Puertorriqueño de la Florida
 * List of Latino Greek-letter organizations <--The table on this page has multiple errors that need cleanup. I plan to get to it.

It appears that many once had Wikipedia pages, but these were deleted. Even as Stubs. The only residual traces are redlinks for these pages, and when attempting to link to them, an alert pops up that they'd been previously deleted. At some point one of us can attempt to revive them (for many of these, the original page may be viewable, upon permission by admins, but only to attempt a firmer rewrite.) My attention has been on the US-based societies, but I dug in enough to realize that a flurry of these deletions came about maybe five years ago, and was only stopped when someone began to argue that Philippine SEC registration conveys a level of authenticity. That made sense to me, and I therefore incorporated that rule in the project's rules for notability. --Subject to discussion, of course.

In this particular AfD instance, the proposer slid in an "uncontested deletion" PROD, and was probably surprised when I objected, and (per the rules) deleted it. I provided a rationale on the Talk page, as directed. But he/she persisted, and put it up for a formal debate. Such a waste of time.

This same person recently inserted a "citations needed" tag on a page I wrote, List of fraternities and sororities at the College of Wooster, which already has 110 references(!). An interesting campus, and I have no connection to it. Therefore all content on the page is from the noted references. I though he was playing a subtle joke, and reverted it, but he/she was serious. If this continues, I may file a harassment complaint. He wouldn't have noticed it unless he was sifting through our project, or my personal efforts. I see no purpose in picking apart random articles like this. Jax MN (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Update: That same editor placed an AfD PROD on yet another page. I'm having a difficult time assuming their actions to be in good faith.  In case you want to weigh in, here is a link: Articles for deletion/Eta Sigma Gamma. Jax MN (talk) 17:45, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Articles for deletion
You may not have seen these. There is an current AfD debate on two Project articles. Jax MN (talk) 15:26, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * See WikiProject Deletion sorting/Fraternities and sororities