User talk:Clover1991

Welcome to the talkpage of Clover1991. I am from China. I speak both English and Chinese.

Former usernames: when I first signed up, I was User:DUROMAC, but that turned out to be  against the rules, so I became Clover1991 instead.

Relationships: I know the CEO of Duromac. (I also know 74 -- but they don't have an article about their IP address on wikipedia, yet. :-)

Welcome!
Hello, Clover1991, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created, such as DUROMAC(M)SDN BHD, may not conform to some of Wikipedia's guidelines, and may not be retained.

There's a page about creating articles you may want to read called Your first article. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the Tea House, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type help me on this page, followed by your question, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few other good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Questions or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! red dog six (talk) 02:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
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Speedy deletion nomination of DUROMAC(M)SDN BHD


A tag has been placed on DUROMAC(M)SDN BHD, requesting that it be deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under two or more of the criteria for speedy deletion, by which articles can be deleted at any time, without discussion. If the page meets any of these strictly-defined criteria, then it may be soon be deleted by an administrator. The reasons it has been tagged are:
 * It seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. (See section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion.) Please read the guidelines on spam and FAQ/Business for more information.
 * It appears to be about a person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), individual animal, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. (See section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion.) Such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. red dog six (talk) 02:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

November 2013
Please do not remove speedy deletion notices from pages you have created yourself, as you did with DUROMAC(M)SDN BHD. If you believe the page should not be deleted, you may contest the deletion by clicking on the button that says: Click here to contest this speedy deletion, which appears inside the speedy deletion notice. This will allow you to make your case on the article's talk page. Administrators will consider your reasoning before deciding what to do with the article. Thank you. red dog six (talk) 02:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add soapboxing, promotional or advertising material to Wikipedia, as you did at DUROMAC(M)SDN BHD, you may be blocked from editing. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  03:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Your article
It 's better, but it still reads as advertising (things like "Advanced industry-leading technology, strict uncompromising standards and exceptionally high quality are all hallmarks of DUROPAD" are obviously meant to be promotional) rather than as an encyclopedia article. Please stay away from adjectives and intensifiers. Additionally, there are no sources to indicate that the company is notable - that it has received significant notice in multiple third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and editorial oversight. Self-sourcing can only be used to support basic facts, independent sourcing is required to cover notability.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:07, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Help with Duromac
Hello Clover, I'm interested in helping you get your Duromac article in shape. There is one traditional iron-clad rule that wikipedia has, for new articles: you have to be in the newspapers, or on television, or mentioned in official government publications, or studied by a university professor in their papers. This proves that Duromac belongs, even to folks (like myself) who do not live in Malaysia, and therefore have not heard of the corporation. These verifiable sources can be printed publications, or website publications, either is fine. (Please note that these verifiable sources do *not* have to be in English themselves -- even though the wikipedia article will be in English -- it is still perfectly okay for the citations to be in any language.) Can you please tell me, if you know of any publications like this, where Duromac is discussed?

That is the first step. While we are working on that, you should make a copy of the information in your sandbox-page, and save it on your local PC, since it looks like somebody objects to the way it is written at the moment: wrong tone, might be copied from another site, and so on. Do not worry about temporary deletion, this is boring and normal, though it seems quite rude until you understand why, which I can explain later.

The folks working on deletion-jobs are really only trying to help; it is a very difficult thing to keep wikipedia compliant with all the guidelines, just like it is difficult to keep the streets swept in a city. :-)   The thing to remember is, we can finish working on your article, even without the sandbox-article.  I will explain all the policies that you need, and as you get more familiar, you can act more boldly.  However, please do not try and fight the deletionists, undoing their changes, or redoing your changes; they are just doing their job, keeping the streets of wikipedia as clean as a whistle.

Remember that we can always put the content back later, when it is really and truly ready and fully compliant with all guidelines -- just save a local copy on your PC, okay?

You can reply here, but please send me a message on my talkpage directly, if I do not respond promptly. You can also ask questions at WP:TEAHOUSE if you need fast answers. Thanks for improving wikipedia, I look forward to working with you. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 12:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I dropped by to see if I could help. The main issue is lack of citations in reliable sources. These do not have to be in English, but they have to exist and have to be more than PR style releases or passing mentions. One has to be careful with scientific papers, too. They tend to be viewed as Primary Sources because that is what they tend to be. I found no decent sources, I'm afraid. You may have better luck.
 * If you follow the route of "Every fact has to be a cited fact" then you will get the trick to it. It seems arduous, but no-one said Wikipedia was simple to use. This essay is one of many that help new users understand how to get it right here. Spend time learning and then get back to editing. There's a lot to find out before you can write a decent first article and expect it to stay here undeleted. Remember that it is never yours. The moment you save the page it becomes everyone's. Fiddle   Faddle  13:16, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * As the other editors above have noted, significant secondary sourcing is needed. Business journal articles, newspaper features, things of that sort that focus on the company at length and in some detail are needed to establish notability.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Duromac sources
Hello Clover, I left my response over here -- User_talk:74.192.84.101. Sorry it is so long. :-)    We already have three reliable sources, plus several noteworthy-mentions, so I think the Duromac article is going to be great.  Do you know how to use your wikipedia watchlist yet?  74.192.84.101 (talk) 12:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: DUROMAC(M) SDN BHD (November 29)
 Thank you for your recent submission to Articles for Creation. Your article submission has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. Please view your submission to see the comments left by the reviewer. You are welcome to edit the submission to address the issues raised, and resubmit if you feel they have been resolved.
 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, you can find it at.
 * To edit the submission, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the [ Articles for creation help desk], or on the [ . Please remember to link to the submission!
 * You can also get real-time chat help from experienced editors.
 * Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia!  T K K ! bark with me if you're my dog!  07:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I added the list of sources as a comment. Clover, have you found a URL for this article: "Good and Thorough Job", The Star, published 2013-01-11. Would be nice if I could read it online. Don't copy it into wikipedia, though, please (we have to write our own sentences and cannot WP:COPYVIO any sentences from Duromac or from TheStar or from other websites). TKK says they will be able to help us improve the article, so that is good. Hope this helps, and hope you are doing well. :-)   Talk to you later. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey, I found the link, but there is nothing mention about DUROMAC. I read this news paper article, there is a picture from DUROMAC cleaning machine, but also nothing mention about DUROMAC. It is really a pity, even this is a good article can use it.--Clover1991 (talk) 02:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the URL, let me check it out. Oh my, that is painful.  Wow.


 * 1) spent RM720,000 on a new road sweeper vehicle  ((from who??))
 * 2) the vehicle, which was similar to the ones used on major highways ((sold by who??))
 * 3) The council has placed an order for two more road sweeper vehicles, which will arrive in May ((FROM WHO???))
 * 4) He was speaking after watching council workers using the new vehicle to sweep along Jalan P. Patto in Butterworth on Tuesday. ((WHOSE VEHICLE WAS IT!?!))
 * 5) He said the vehicle’s sales agent had last month given a crash course to some 15 council workers ((AAAAARRRRGGGHHHH))
 * Is that duromac, for *all* of those things? That is just so sad, that TheStar never bothered to mention the name of the company responsible, practically the whole article is about duromac's stuff, but Seberang Prai Municipal Council takes 100% of the credit.  Sheesh!  Do you know who gave the crash-course?
 * p.s. Hey, I was looking into the search archives, and found all these newspaper articles about Alam Flora.  Wikipedia already has an article called DRB-HICOM about the parent-conglomerate, but there are enough newspaper stories that mention Alam Flora wikipedia prolly needs a separate article about Alam Flora Sbn Bhd.  Do you want to help me write that one, while we wait for TKK to check over our references?  Do you know anybody there?  74.192.84.101 (talk) 06:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * hey, I know it is really bad that " good and through the job" can not be used for DUROMAC article. It is really not a good reference. I think there are only two references we can use it for DUROMAC. I am thinking about if we can not find anything to approve product section, I will give it up. because it is apparently DUROMAC is not a big company, barely has any articles online. My goal for is help DUROMAC to access to Wikipedia. It is fine, I can help with Alam Flora Sdn Bhd, but unfortunately, I don't know anyone from this company. Thanks for your help again :)--Clover1991 (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Do not give up on Duromac yet. Wait until we see what TKK says.  Duromac has two solid sources, and two more solid sources.  I found the NST/FZ sources, which confirm Duromac won the 8x6 and 8x8 maintenance contract with the military; that is probably good enough to count as our third source, since although duromac only got passing mention in the text of the article, there was a real-life ceremony, attended by the defence minister.  I believe that clinches out chances of getting an accepted article.  But we shall have to wait and see.  :-)    Do not lose hope now, when we are so close.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 07:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I will not :) we will see how TKK reply and make an improvement! Thanks! --Clover1991 (talk) 07:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have a question, I check the company pageZoomlion, they have product section. but the reference they offer original from their own website. Is it allowed? For me, I think this is kind of advertising.--Clover1991 (talk) 07:56, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have the exact same question. :-)     I asked Acroterion, and they said it was probably okay for Duromac to have a list, like Zoomlion does, citing their own website using WP:ABOUTSELF.  On the other hand, TKK did not like the product-list, when they saw it.  Maybe they will be fine with the list, if we cite the Duromac website, or the FMM website, or similar?  But compare your Duromac product list, with the Zoomlion product-list.  They used a sentence, with not much boldface.  You used a big list, with a bold section-title.  They used neutral tone, which is always good, see WP:TONE.  You said things like "comprehensive product portfolio" and also "supply customers with a wide range" and put some emphasis on "single source".  That is too positive, not neutral enough.
 * If a *journalist* says such things, or a government website, or a university professor, then we can quote that reliable person. "Duromac is a great[www.TheStar.com.my/2014/02/02] company."  But we wikipedians cannot ourselves say such things.  By quoting a source, then it is not *wikipedia* saying the positive things, it is just wikipedia reporting the *facts* about what a source said.  Make sense?
 * Anyways, maybe if we clean up the tone of the product list, and make it have less big-boldface-layout, TKK will be fine with it. First things first, though, I asked them to see if we have enough sources to achieve WP:N and get a dedicated article. *Then* we can worry about finishing up writing our independently-sourced-sentences, and *finally* we can worry about the product-list and other WP:ABOUTSELF sentences. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 08:43, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * hey, I made few changes for my product section in AFC, please check it. I think it is much better than before, how do you think of it?--Clover1991 (talk) 02:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, I saw the product line you made, I prefer the last one you made it, I think it is more neutral point of view. Shall we leave all possible content in my AFC, and TTK maybe can check it?--Clover1991 (talk) 03:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ((edit conflict)) I copied it down to "attempt#2" in the rough-draft-area. We should work down there on most things.  We need to wait for TKK to have a chance to look our sources over, before we put things that were taken out (or new things) back into the main part.  Also, I wrote up "attempt#3" myself, which just gives a straightforward listing without any fanfare, using just a single WP:ABOUTSELF citation.  I also added additional wikilinks.  Just the facts, neutral tone, that is our goal here.  Compare attempt#1, #2, and #3 to see what I mean.  p.s.  Do the suppliers of Duromac have articles in wikipedia, for instance, the Bucher-Schörling corporation does not seem to have one, but ACMAT does.  What are the names of the other equipment-suppliers?  74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * We can leave everything for now, where it is, yes. But we should not add more, until TKK or Acroterion or somebody has given us the green light that we have enough Reliable Sources.  It is still a bit of a grey area, because the sources we have are usually just a paragraph or so.  However, they all reference real-world events, intended by important people, so I think we have enough.  In the meantime, you can write up some sentences in the rough-draft area.  Also, go ahead and create a new AfC submission, for Alam Flora Sbn Bhd, since we have way more than enough sources for that article.  It will give you good practice writing in a neutral tone, and sticking to the sources, maybe.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I know there is an another supplier called Hako, they also have their own Wikipedia page. That's it.--Clover1991 (talk) 03:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC) btw, I already asked the help from TEA HOUSE, I wish there will be someone willing to help us.--Clover1991 (talk) 03:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think what you really wish is that someone would help right now this second. :-)     But wikipedia takes time.  Like going fishing; you cannot rush it, the fish arrive when they are ready.
 * Hey,Hey,74, did you help me to write my personal description in the beginning? haha, I am not from Malaysia, I am from China:)--Clover1991 (talk) 04:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup that was me. I just guessed, I figured you would notice sooner or later and fix it.  You can click the 'user page' link and put your introductory-materials there if you like.  Do you speak Mandarin, or one of the other dialects?  74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:07, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

As for the teahouse, remember that different people are in the teahouse at different times. Also, you need to ask a specific question, with a small scope. For instance, if you say "will you please write my entire article for me" then nobody is going to say yes, people are busy. If you say, "here is a source [TheStar.com.my/2008/02.01] is it wp:noteworthy or wp:n please" then you might get a helpful answer.

 Hako is a village in the Aragatsotn Province of Armenia; see also Hakö language, an Austronesian language; Mount Hako, a mountain in the Kitami Mountains, Hokkaidō, Japan; Scion Hako Coupe, a concept car. I don't think any of those are equipment-suppliers. What is the external homepage of the Hako company? What country is their HQ? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:07, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * haha, I speak mandarin, but I also speak our own dialect, called Chongqingnese. haha, I guess you from USA, right?
 * Cool, I'm impressed. You may guess, and your guess might even be correct, but I'm one of those shy folks that doesn't reveal anything.  :-)     I'm a citizen of the wikiverse, here, and like to keep quiet about my existence in the real-life-o-verse.  Must mean I'm a secret spy, right?  You can call me agent 4711, like one of my spy-handlers from Sweden does.  It's just a codename though.  ;-)    &mdash;  74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

here is a link of hako.unfortunately, it is in German, coz this is a German company. --Clover1991 (talk) 04:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

 * Ah, cool, that's very good. We definitely need to get that article translated into English, so we can create that one here.  I will see if I can rustle up somebody that sprachens sie deutsch.  It looks like the Hako already has solid sources, deWiki is *very* strict about such things.
 * While we wait for TKK, go ahead and create two new AfC submissions, please, one for Hako and one for Alam Flora. Just like we did for Duromac, begin with one single sentence only, plus some sources.  The german article has three sources already for Hako, just link to them.  As for Flora, I listed about twenty different articles in TheStar which mention Alam Flora.  Pretty soon, you will have *three* new articles you created here on enWiki to brag to your wikiFriends about.  :-)    p.s.  And hey, since you know something about it, does  this paragraph summarize everything properly?  Language in China is very touchy, politically slash culturally, and sometimes wikipedia articles have *very* badly-wrong information.  Always helps to have somebody that knows what they are doing check it over; if you do make any corrections, remember to stay neutral as a rock, just like pillar two says.  See you later, my friend.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * hey, seems TTK is really busy and barely check Wikipedia, never mind, I will try to ask more people for help:) for the new AFC, yes, I will start to write it as soon as possible, using my spare time :) Thanks for your help!--Clover1991 (talk) 01:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, I asked Acroterion, he said we are in the right direction, but we still need more sources to approve notability..... --Clover1991 (talk) 04:27, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I asked the same thing of Howicus, and they said the same thing. :-)    Methinks this is because Duromac has just recently become a military contractor, with RMAF runways in 2012, and now the 8x8 trucks in 2013.  Basically, from what Howicus said, the goal is to have some government-website or newspaper-articles that are particularly about Duromac, preferably with Duromac in the piece-title, even if they are just a couple paragraphs.  Currently, those kind of sources do not exist, yet.  We have articles that are about a military tech-park, with Duromac as a founding member.  We have articles about a runway-cleaning-contract, with Duromac as the recipient.  We have articles about the South Kiang Expressway Project, with Duromac getting good coverage... but only a couple sentences actually say Duromac.
 * So here is what I suggest we do. On your end, keep looking for sources, in particular, ones that cover Duromac *as* a company (which is slightly different from covering a business-deal or an award-ceremony in which Duromac was a *participant* of some kind).  Especially, articles with Duromac in the title.  What we have already is very close to achieving the wikipedia-Notability rules.  But the rules are fuzzy, they depend on the person looking at the sources.  Also, it is true, that the quality of the article -- how good it looks -- will help influence the decision somewhat.  I can help with that.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

On your end, please explain to your friends at Duromac the stuff about needing significant in-depth coverage. There are lots of ways to *fake* it, like paying for press releases and such, but none of those are any good for wikipedia, WP:SELFPUB is just a waste of money for wikipedia-purposes. There is really only one way to get coverage: by doing excellent work, in an outstanding way. Duromac should keep winning new contracts, and should keep holding press conferences. They might also consider doing some charity work, that often leads to good publicity. Using the industrial-cleaners and the landscaping-equipment to help a local religious or medical or educational non-profit, for free, maybe? But nothing special like that is really required. Duromac should just concentrate on doing good work cleaning the runways, and cleaning the streets, and servicing the equipment. As they get more airports as customers, and get more cities as customers, they will be noticed by the press.

Business success will lead naturally to stories in the press about the founders, stories about the company, and finishing off the wikipedia entry. It might happen next summer, or it might take a little longer; nobody can predict the future. But we can *plan* for the future &mdash; make sure they know to keep track of any press or publicity the company and the employees receive, negative coverage or positive coverage, either is helpful  to Duromac's wikiNotability. Of course, we already have five or six different WP:NOTEWORTHY mentions, so we can get some sentences into existing articles that are supported by those sources.

In the meanwhile, while we look for more sources, you and I should keep the AfC submission in the queue. It can stay there until next summer, or longer, we just need to make updates to the page every few months. My main job is to clean up the article-text, plus write a background-section. Maybe you would like to learn how to format the references, and look around for some CC-BY-SA-licensed or GFDL-licensed pictures of the equipment? It well help when we get Hako translated from deWiki over to enWiki, they have a lot of pictures. I'll ask you a bunch of questions about technology, and how Duromac does things, and what kind of stuff they work with, and so on. We should be able to get the article into pretty decent shape I think, while we wait on sources. There might also be some year-end news coverage, or some start-of-the-year news coverage. Duromac is involved in the cleanup work for the holiday festivities, and maybe Ops_Selamat, is that right?

Anyways, don't feel discouraged. There is a saying around here, that the wheels of WikiJustice may grind slow, but they grind fine. It means that everything takes longer than it seems like it should, but in the end, the right outcome is almost always achieved. Duromac will have their article, at some point. But it is a high standard -- there are only 82 companies in Malaysia that have wikipedia articles today, see List of companies of Malaysia, which includes Petronas and DRB-HICOM and other famous ones. We will soon add Alam Flora to that list, methinks, and Duromac will also show up there someday. :-)

I will have some equipment questions for you, in a new section below. Keep your chin up, my friend. And hey, after we clean up the references, finish writing the sentences, add a background section, and put in some snazzy images, we will submit Duromac for AfC review again, and see what the reviewer says. We have *another* useful saying around here:  consensus can change! Acroterion and Howicus have given us their opinions, after briefly looking over what we've got finished so far, but I would still like to see what TKK says, plus also submit our cleaned-up work to another AfC reviewer, and see what they say. I will do some cleaning, and then we shall see whether opinion improves. :-)  &mdash; 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

moved your helpdesk request
It is here now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk#Review_of_Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation.2FDUROMAC.28M.29_SDN_BHD

Rather than just asking for "help" you should try and be specific, that way, people can know what they are getting into. :-)    You can also ask questions at WP:TEAHOUSE, but again, it usually helps to be specific.  Make sure when you give the link it is blue, the spaces matter, if you forget a space then the link will turn into a redlink.  Have a good night, I need to take a nap.  Talk to you later.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 08:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

what sort of work does Duromac do
Military vehicles. Please see list here, ACMAT, which specific ones does Duromac work with? Are there other vendors, besides ACMAT, for the 8x8 / 8x6 / 6x6 / 4x4 contract at the new military tech-park, that Duromac is involved with? Also, what is Duromac's portion of the facilities, and Duromac's portion of the revenues, if that is settled yet? Some other corporations we've talked about get mentioned in wikipedia already. Turkish tank variants from DefTech subsidiary of DRB-Hicom, assembled locally at Pekan in Pahang. DRB-HICOM also locally produces the Handalan I/II troop-carrier-trucks. There are many other Malaysian military vehicles, such as the URO_VAMTAC. What about the vehicle horns, is Duromac involved in those, and which vehicles use them? See also, Isuzu_HICOM_Malaysia, HICOM_Automotive_Manufacturers_(Malaysia). 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Military runways. Please see photos and article-section-titles here, Airfield_rubber_removal with various types of runway-cleaning-equipment, does Duromac use rotating brushes, or is it hydrocleaning with water? Foreign_object_debris What is being cleared, dirt-n-debris, burned rubber, ice&snow&hail and such? (I'm guessing not that last group. ;-) What specific equipment-models and equipment-vendors does Duromac use? How often do they clean the runways, once a day, before every flight, or is it more like every two weeks, or every six months? Do they clean the runways only, or also the apron, and the Runway_safety_area, and other parts of the tarmac? Are they made of concrete, or asphalt/tarmac, or maybe something more exotic? How many airfields does Duromac help with, and where are they located? Royal_Malaysian_Air_Force What about commercial airfields? List_of_airports_in_Malaysia Malaysia_Airports 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Municipal street-sweepers. What specific Hoka models? How many cities are using Duromac equipment on their streets? Which inter-city companies use Duromac equipment or services? Which inter-city roads use Duromac equipment or services?  74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Park-landscaping and industrial-cleaning. How many units does Duromac sell (or lease) in a year? How many corporations or cities are customers, currently, and historical-grand-total? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Localities. In terms of general breadth, which of these districts does Duromac have industrial/military/municipal customers in? See also, List_of_cities_and_towns_in_Malaysia_by_population and Cities_of_Malaysia. Federal Kuala Lumpur Labuan Putrajaya Johor		13 cities, 93 towns, 10 districts Johor Bahru Muar Batu Pahat Kluang Kota Tinggi Segamat Pontian Mersing Ledang Kulaijaya Kedah		1 city, 36 towns, 12 districts Baling Bandar Baharu Kota Setar Kuala Muda Kubang Pasu Kulim Langkawi Padang Terap Pendang Pokok Sena Sik Yan Kelantan		0 cities, 21 towns, 8 districts Bertam Chiku Galas Ketereh Kota Bharu Kuala Krai Lojing Dabong Malacca		3 cities, 32 towns, 3 districts Alor Gajah Central Malacca Jasin Negeri Sembilan	0 cities, 51 towns, 7 districts Jelebu Jempol Kuala Pilah Port Dickson Rembau Seremban Tampin Pahang		0 cities, 61 towns, 11 districts Bera Bentong Cameron Highlands Jerantut Kuantan Lipis Maran Pekan Raub Rompin Temerloh Perak		1 city, 87 towns, 10 districts Kinta Larut, Matang dan Selama Hilir Perak Manjung Batang Padang Kerian Kuala Kangsar Hulu Perak Perak Tengah Kampar Perlis		0 cities, 11 towns, 1 district Penang		1 city + suburbs, ~20 towns, 5 zones North-East Penang Island South-West Penang Island Northern Seberang Perai Central Seberang Perai Southern Seberang Perai Sabah		3 cities, ~22 towns, ~22 districts Kota Belud, Kota Kinabalu, Papar, Penampang, Putatan, Ranau, Tuaran Beaufort, Nabawan, Keningau, Kuala Penyu, Sipitang, Tambunan, Tenom Kota Marudu, Kudat, Pitas Beluran, Kinabatangan, Sandakan, Tongod Kunak, Lahad Datu, Semporna, Tawau Sarawak		2 cities, 41 towns, 10 districts Belaga Bintulu Dalat Limbang Meradong Sarikei Selangau Song Sri Aman Tatau Selangor		4 cities, 75 towns including Puchong, 9 districts Gombak Hulu Langat Hulu Selangor Klang Kuala Langat Kuala Selangor Sabak Bernam Sepang Petaling Terengganu		1 city, 29 towns, 7 districts Kuala Terengganu Hulu Terengganu Besut Setiu Marang Dungun Kemaman

Don't worry if you don't know all the answers. :-)   Hope this helps, thanks.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Talk back
Hey, 74! Sorry havn't reply your message for a while, coz I was waiting for answer from DUROMAC CEO. He read our message and He really appreciate what you did for DUROMAC. Because you know, DUROMAC is a small company, barely find reference online. But you help as to find a lot of information, even some articles he never saw it online before. Thanks again!

For your question, for the military part, he said we don't need to mention much on Wikipedia, DUROMAC only works on military runway sweepers, right now, there is nothing related to military vehicles.

For municipal part, DUROMAC is selling CityFant 30 and 60, which is original from Bucher Schorling. DUROMAC has a lot of customers in Malaysia already, for examplePROPEL, PLUS Expressway Berhad,KESAS,Litrak, Municipal Council of Penang Island.

For Hako's products, DUROMAC is selling HAKO HAMSTER 650, JONAS 800 and 900 ( these are sweeper), HAKO matic B45 and B115( these are scrubber) DUROMAC is also selling an USA brand called " powerboss" for heavy-duty industrial sweeper. Type of power boss machines: 9XR, ATLX, 10XV and T82.

I discussed with the CEO of DUROMAC, and we edited DUROMAC article together, I will put in below and please check it and tell me what you think we still need to improve :)

DUROMAC (formally known as "DUROMAC(M)SDN BHD") is a Malaysian corporation founded in 1996, which supplies road-sweeping equipment and services for industrial and government clients in Malaysia  In 2008, DUROMAC opened a new facility; Samy Vellu, the government's Works Minister at that time, attended the ceremony and spoke at the press conference afterwards.    In January 2012, DUROMAC was awarded an equipment-maintenance contract related to military runways by the  RMAF. 

Products DUROMAC supplies and services industrial cleaning equipment,  lawn equipment, street sweepers and  runway sweepers.

Customers DUROMAC's customers are based in Malaysia and include PROPEL, PLUS Expressway Berhad, KESAS, Litrak, and the Municipal Council of Penang Island.

References

Kategory:Industrial supply companies Kategory:Companies established in 1996 Kategory: 1996 establishments in Malaysia

Further Commentary
Hello Clover, good to see you again. Thanks for all the new info, I will try and read through it. As you can see, I have been lazy since you left, and not yet worked on making the AfC submission more pretty. It will help to have the machinery-types, because I can see about putting in a small photo-gallery, like the Hako article in the German-language wikipedia has. Your upgraded article above seems sharp, I will take a peek at it this weekend I hope, and may see about getting some German-to-English translation as well. Thanks my friend, and talk to you later. p.s. I may have a Mandarin question for you, at some point, if you have a few minutes to see who the editors were of some scientific papers. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * No problem:) If you have any question about Mandarin, you can always ask me;) and I am waiting for your reply.--Clover1991 (talk) 04:06, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Good news, I had Tim look over the work you've done, here is what they said. "Duromac... I've looked at the AfC item. I see just sufficient notability for a decent stub.  ... Where is it on the notability scale? JUST on the right side of the border, I think."   Woo!  :-)    There is still plenty of work to do, but there is hope.  Thanks for the offer to help with the language-barrier, I will see what the original person who asked the question found out, they were going to try and figure it out themselves.  The page is Talk:SORCER if you get curious.  Talk to you later, my friend. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:19, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * wow, that's really a good news! I am so happy:) Then What we should do right now??? Still look for a new reference?--Clover1991 (talk) 01:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Is Duromac Ready To Submit Again?
Pro:
 * 1)  we have two independent editors that think it has enough sources... maybe we will get three!
 * 2)  we have two nice pictures now (good work on those -- I like 'em)
 * 3)  we might pass the AfC review, and get into mainspace, where other people will come help improve the article

Con:
 * 1)  we have two independent editors that think it has enough sources... barely... but two against... and we do not want three against
 * 2)  we have two nice pictures now, but no map that shows context, and no gallery... plus the rough-draft-area interferes with the photo-layout
 * 3)  we might pass the AfC review, and get into mainspace, for all to see... and then get deleted, because our article is still a big mess
 * 4)  we are missing several sentences, that have reliable sources, but do not yet have neutral prose
 * 5)  we are missing a background-paragraph, from wp:aboutself sources or other wikipedia articles, explaining the malaysian tourism-sector and the malaysian defence-sector
 * 6)  we are missing a see-also section, with links to related businesses, related areas, and other details
 * 7)  we are missing captions for the photos, with links to detailed about the hardware (no Hako translation yet)

Basically, the problem I see is this: we just barely have enough sources. It is a borderline case. The military-contract-work, and the famous politicians who visit duromac, are the main attractions (in terms of publicity! in terms of revenues the steady street-sweeping / floor-cleaning / landscaping work for municipal and industrial and institutional clients is more crucial).

As you have seen, some people on wikipedia are very worried about spam. The article on Duromac right now, is *not* spam, we have done very well making it neutral. Good job, my friend, you are learning fast. But, it is not really a *good* article yet, that will impress the readers. It still needs a lot of work, to fill in the missing information. We don't want to have somebody review it again, I think, unless we think it is maybe getting close to ready for mainspace. There are plenty of things still left to do before that will be close to happening.

But there is another reason, a political reason, or maybe I should say, more of a marketing reason, to make the article look good. When the next reviewer comes to see the article, we want them to be impressed. We want them to think, wow, this is a good-looking article. Nice pics. Nice prose. Good grammar. Not to long. Not too short. Interesting to the reader! *Then* when they are already impressed, we want them to look at the sources. We have three sources. But they are small. Only a few sentences each. Is that in-depth coverage? Well, yes, probably... if the reviewer is patient.

If they look at the works minister who visited, the brigadier general who visited, the defence minister that signed the contract and shook hands, plus the wp:noteworthy sources. That tells the story of a company that is ready for mainspace, and an article that is ready to educate the readership. Unfortunately, there are **2000** articles waiting to be reviewed. Most of the reviewers are in a big hurry. We want our article to look good, so that they slow down, and check it for us, looking into the sources with care, not busy-busy, hurry-hurry. It the article looks good, that is more likely to happen. Make sense?

You can submit it for another review, if you want. But right now, it will probably be declined again. Sentences are still missing, background is missing, and so on. Just barely enough sources. And 2000 other articles that need a reviewer... they will prolly rush off, to help elsewhere. Having a lot of declines is not *bad* really, but it is also not good. We would rather have our next one be success, if possible. I think we need to wax the paint, polish the hubcaps, and clean up the litter. :-)   Hope this helps; feel free to charge forward, you can always be WP:BOLD, but remember to think of the readers... we want them to get something educational out of the article, we want the article to look sharp.  It doesn't have to be perfect.  Thanks as always, talk to you later. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:00, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for your reply. Good news, I have a friend, she can help me to translate Hako article from German to English! Her user name is User:Maartje77. But She is a new user of Wikipedia, she doesn't know how it works to translate it in wikipedia? Could you please tell us exactly what steps we have to follow to translate this article??? Thanks again!--Clover1991 (talk) 03:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi,74. I just looked at 4 private company in Malaysia in Wikipedia. I have some question. I looked at these two companies BOH Plantations and Heng Siew Chiang Sendirian Berhad.Their pages barely have any reference, yeah, of course, I know they are much bigger companies compared with DUROMAC, but still, Wikipedia needs to have good sources, right? Also, I saw Heng Siew Chiang Sendirian Berhad page, they use facebook page as their website page, is it allowed? From my understanding, Wikipedia should forbid any social media sources, right? Thanks for your time :)--Clover1991 (talk) 03:29, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi! Another few questions about the con's, because I would really like to fix them. Which sentences do not yet have a neutral prose? And how can we fix the background paragraph? How is the Malaysian tourism-sector and Malaysian defence-sector relevant? The see also section we can refer to Hako, right? If we translate it.. How long do you think this might take? My friend already translated the text. --Clover1991 (talk) 04:17, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Howdy Clover, sorry I have been swamped. :-)   It looks like you have been making good progress, though.  Here are some quick answers:  Let me know if all this is unclear.  :-)    Thanks as usual for improving wikipedia, hope you are doing well. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 20:41, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)  for Maartje, I left them a reply on my talkpage.  In particular, there are two experienced wikipedians (who both know German) that are willing to help out.  We can use the AfC queue, again.
 * 2)  can a company be in wikipedia, without any references?  Yes... if it is obvious that such references *do* actually exist, in the real world, merely have not yet been put into the article.  See WP:V
 * 3)  when do the references have to be put in?  The answer is, before the WP:DEADLINE.
 * 4)  how do the references get put in?  We could try and find some, of course.  See WP:GOOG.
 * 5)  what if we are too busy for that right now?  Well, we could just leave the articles like they are.  Somebody, another wikipedian, will come along to fix things up, someday.
 * 6)  can we at least let somebody know there is a problem, even if we are too busy to fix it ourselves?  Yes... but we must be cautious to "sound the alarm" in a considerate and helpful manner.  It is possible for any wikipedian to challenge sentences they believe are not true/factual/encyclopedic.  You are a wikipedian, so you can do this.  I try not to challenge other wikipedians, unless I really think the sentence is WRONG, and it is best to try and find cites myself, first.  But technically, the WP:BURDEN is on the wikipedians who want the sentence to stay, not on those that want it to be removed.
 * 7)  does every sentence of every article in wikipedia need good sources?  Sort of.  Wikipedia does need good sources... eventually.  But at the same time, we also need to avoid discouraging good-faith contributors, which I think is even more important!  :-)   Who is going to find sources, if there are no contributors left?  See WP:PARTIALRV, especially this:  "revert an edit made in good faith only after careful consideration. You might want to discuss the matter on the article talk page, but this is not obligatory. A reversion can eliminate 'good stuff', discourage other editors, and spark an edit war."  Plenty of wikipedians just revert anything they don't like... that is bad, it drives people away, I wish they would learn to be more considerate, wikipedia needs excellent contributors, even more than it needs excellent articles.
 * 8)  what about all that advertising-stuff in the BOH Plantations, what should we do?  First, we should click edit-history.  It looks like most advertising was added just recently.
 * 9)  who did that?  It was User_talk:Nshazean.  They have three contributions, all to that article.  They have a redlink talkpage -- nobody has even welcomed the to wikipedia yet.  They have a redlink userpage.  They have only edited that one article, on that one day.  So what to do?  First, WP:AGF.  Clearly they were *trying* to improve wikipedia, by adding interesting information.  But just as clearly, they don't know the ropes here yet.  You were once that way.  So was I.  Maybe we can help them.
 * 10)  how to help them?  Well, that depends.  First, it will help them if we leave them a note.  What should the note say?  You've seen the usual sort of template-spam that  some people like to leave on talkpages:  "STOP YOU ARE BAD QUIT SPAMMING WIKIPEDIA AAAARRRR WE ARE ALL MEANIES HERE".       Very uncool.  Instead, let us leave Nshazean some kind of WP:NICE note, which compliments them.  The story they added was interesting, it just needs some improvements to the tone.  The facts they added are encyclopedic, but it would help if they have some references.  Some of their stuff is non-encyclopedic, but we can show them how to fix it.  Thank them for helping, and offer to chat further about it with them.
 * 11)  how do we help wikipedia's readership, while we talk with Nshazean, and help them get better at wikipedia?  One thing we *could* do is just delete all the information that Nshazean added, and revert back to the August-version of the BOH aricle.  That old version was encyclopedic.  But just reverting entirely, is a bit of a slap in the face to Nshazean, our new editor, right?  And some of their stuff is good, if sources can back it up, someday.  So we should edit collaboratively:  change mainspace for the better (to take care of the readership and the content), but thank Nshazean for their help (plus offer to collaborate with them further on sourcing/tone/training/etc).  Make sense?
 * 12)  all this stuff takes a lot of time, how can we do it ourselves?  Luckily, we don't have to, WP:REQUIRED means we can just ignore it, guilt free.  Plus, we have the luxury of all the time in the world, wikipedia is for the ages, WP:DEADLINE applies.  Or, if we wanted to, we can just be *mostly* lazy, and put up some tag to complain about things.  Somebody did that already, for the Heng Siew Chiang article, which you can see at the top, making the page ugly:  "This article is an orphan, as no other articles link to it. Please introduce links to this page from related articles; suggestions may be available. (September 2013)'.   Which means it was added months ago, and nobody has fixed it yet.  The same for BOH, right?  Nshazean added the family-history-tone-material to the article in September, and nobody has fixed it yet.  We need more wikipedians, to help make articles about Malaysia excellent.  Adding big ugly tags is rarely effective; better to leave a note on the article-talkpage, or fix the problem, not just complain.
 * 13)  Most of the questions above apply to User_talk:JB Heng, who is the main person working on the Heng Siew Chiang (Sbn Bhd) article nowadays.  We can see that in the edit-history. Now, unlike Nshazean, it looks like JB_Heng has been around for quite some time, and we can see on their userpage that User:JB_Heng is named John B. Heng, that they live in Malaysia (Tawau), and that they are currently twenty years old (attending University of Hull in the United Kingdom).  They even link to their off-wiki blog, and we can learn more about their scholarly interests, family business, and languages they speak, plus see some photos.
 * 14)  If we click on their contributions, we see they contribute to the article on their university in the UK, as well as on Heng Siew Chiang.  At the bottom of the page we can click edit count, and see more details.  From the numbers, we see John has 67 article-edits to mainspace, 10 file-uploads, 3 userpage edits (their own presumably), and one talkpage edit, for a grand total of 95 edits, including deletions.  This tells us that the are relatively new at wikipedia, under *this* username at least... perhaps they edited as an anon before... but they are pretty young in age, so probably not *too* many years as an anon, unlike me.  It also tells us that, just like Nshazean, they may not have used talkpages before.  There are three messages on John's talkpage, all of them not very nice... "your images will soon be deleted" type of messages.  So, we can leave them a message similar to the one we leave for Nshazean.
 * 15)  What if we suspect that there might be a conflict of interest?  For instance, from their username, and the info on their blog, it's pretty reasonable to guess that John is connected to the Malaysian corporation Heng Siew Chiang Sbn Bhd, either via friends or family or both, and might even work there during the summers when university is out.  But all that is just speculation.  What really matters is not the conflict itself, but whether or not the article in mainspace stays neutral, well-sourced, and so on.  Is it encyclopedic?  Is there an inherent conflict, which means the talkpage is preferable?  Maybe, we will have to see.  But it looks like John is doing good work with most of the prose -- a bit of work needed on WP:TONE, and needs sources.  We'd like them to keep on doing good work, and have them learn more about how to keep wikipedia awesome.
 * 16)  Unfortunately, looking at google shows that the company is unlikely to satisfy WP:42, because the only thing which was notable in the media was when Heng Siew Chiang sued the government back in 2006, which was decided by the high court in 2009 or 2010.  Newspapers did not pick up the case; it *was* reported by both the government (primary source) and also by CLJ (which is arguably a secondary source).  But besides that one event, there is nothing else I could find.  On the other hand, I don't speak chinese, and maybe there is some press on the corporation outside that one legal incident.  If so, the article can stay, if not, probably there will be a footnote about the case in the article on the Malaysian High Court.  But either way, I'd like John to keep contributing to wikipedia, just like they've been doing since 2010; someday, the Heng Siew Chiang corporation may achieve wikiNotability, and in the meantime, University of Hull and other stuff John is interested in, will need good editors.  So we'll try and proceed softly, and get the Heng Siew Chiang article moved to AfC, if no sources can be found.  Make sense?
 * 17)  As for the BOH article, it seems likely that sources exist.  The company has a website (separate from their facebook page).  They are both a tea-plantation, and simultaneously, a tourist destination (one advantage to being founded in the 1800s I suppose).  During 2013/2012, they claim to be mentioned in TheStar*4/*1, NewStraitsTimes*2/*1, BHarian*3/*0, HarianMetro*2/*1, TheSun*1/*1 (also 2009 & 2010), MalayMail*2/*1, Utusan*2/*1, and a few others besides.  They also say they were in Reader's Digest in 2007.  Biz news.  Conferences/papers.  Market data.  Tourism info.  Now, obviously not all of these sources are WP:N, and plenty of the tourism-ones are not WP:RS, but it is reasonable to assume that the BOH article satisfies wikiNotable criteria.  Improvement is worth striving for... maybe we can teach Nshazean how to make the improvements?  Maybe, if we're lucky, John will want to help, because of their general interest in Malaysian business.
 * 18)  does how old the company is, matter?  Nope.  Just because something is old, does not make it wikiNotable.  WP:OLDAGE.  By the same token, just because something is new, does not make *it* wikiNotable.  WP:NOTNEWS.
 * 19)  does the size of the company, matter?  Somewhat surprisingly no... at least, not in theory, although actually in practice, big companies pretty much always have more news/teevee/magazines/professors/govt/etc.  See WP:BIG
 * 20)  is facebook allowed as a cite to support a Reliably-Sourced-sentence?  Nope, because it is not fact-checked by a professional editorial-board, nor is it peer-reviewed by professional academic-referees.  See WP:RS
 * 21)  is facebook allowed as an WP:ABOUTSELF cite?  Very rarely... it is risky, because some people impersonate famous celebrities, or crack facebook passwords, so wikipedians strongly prefer other sources, but see next question
 * 22)  is facebook allowed as an external link?  Yes sometimes -- if the facebook page is the *only* primary internet homepage of the entity (some musicians have a facebook page but no separate homepage)  WP:EL
 * 23)  for instance, Heng Siew Chiang has no internet website, except their facebook page, so if the corporation is wikiNotable, that would be their "official homepage".  There are a few companies which have a wordpress-blog as their official homepages, too, that I've seen.  Social networks are not WP:RS, but sometimes in special situations they can be WP:EL, is basically the rule.

duromac, part 387_C
''Which sentences do not yet have a neutral prose? '' The article is neutral right now, the problem is missing prose. :-)   We need to write neutral prose to replace the following placeholders:

((2003 partnership with horn-manufacturer.))[5] ((2010 award-ceremony from upstream-hardware-supplier to downstream customer-employee with Arul Das as the master of ceremonies.))[9] ((2013 defence ministry contract && tech-park.))[11][4]

DUROMAC's industrial and government customers are based in Malaysia and include[citation needed]

''And how can we fix the background paragraph? '' The background-paragraph should be short, but it needs to explain to the readers that Malaysia is in southeast asia, that Kuala Lumpur is NN miles northeast of Puchong, and that Duromac customers clean the roads in provinces $1 $2 and $3. It gives context, so the readers who are not from Malaysia will understand.

''How is the Malaysian tourism-sector relevant? '' That is why Samy Vellu was at the grand opening; clean roads are politically important, because they lead to nicer-looking cities, and thus improve tourism. We can also cite the "Good And Thorough Job" article, which was about how the municipal council was concerned with keeping the streets clean -- again mostly for tourism purposes, right?

''How is the Malaysian defence-sector relevant? '' Because it has recently been formed, and even more recently has become increasingly privatized. Because duromac is *mostly* notable as a new defence contractor, with the airport-runway-contract, and now the new military-technology-park-contract. It does not matter if those things are only 1% of the duromac annual revenues, or if Duromac is not currently actively doing the contracted work. The sources reported it, because it is glamorous. :-)    Street-cleaning is not very glamorous, so it gets relatively little press and media attention.  We should not pretend that Duromac is the most important defence contractor in Malaysia... or that without Duromac, the entire RMAF would crumble into dust... but clearly Duromac *does* play a role.  We should describe the RMAF, and give the readers an idea of the historical background.  Just a couple sentences, to set the stage.  Duromac has some sort of a working relationship with DRB-HICOM, right?  They are a big defence contractor, as well as municipal-roadway-contractor, right?  Maybe a sentence about them, or a see-also.

The see also section we can refer to Hako, right? Yes, correct. We can also mention them in the equipment-list, optionally, but I think it is redundant.

I think you know enough about how to keep the prose neutral now, if you would rather not wait around for me to have the time. So, go ahead and write the sentences, if you want, and put them in the rough-draft section. Then myself, or Maartje, or Yngvadottir, or somebody like that can look over your work, and paste them into the main body. If you're in a hurry, you can just put them straight in, this is AfC, not mainspace, so there is no COI restriction. I'm just getting you well-trained for when Duromac *does* get into mainspace. p.s. You also asked about whether we should look for more sources, and the answer is, yes... keep your eyes peeled, and ask the Duromac CEO to do the same, more media reporting always improves wikiNotability. Probably we have just enough now, but more never hurts. :-)    Hope this helps.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I did some work on it, I think we're ready to submit again and see what Tikuko says. If you think the same thing, hit that re-submit button, and cross your fingers.  :-)    We'll call in some other eyes, and do another search for old sources, if we get another decline.  But methinks the article is ready now; there are a few things that need tweaking, but it would definitely improve wikipedia to have our current draft-attempt go live.  Danke 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Talkback
T K K  public  (Bark at me \\ Block this account if it's acting funny!) 21:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

current tally
Hello Clover, happy 2014. No worries about our new decline, I'm actually gabbing with Anup already; they are reviewing most submissions in 3 minutes flat, but ours they reviewed for 12 whole minutes... a good sign, we are four times closer than average! Plus, Anup is trying to help me understand his position now, and he may yet change is stance.


 * acroterion == nay (based on old version of article ... has not see our fancy new pictures :-)
 * howicus == nay (based on IRC conversation... not sure if they could see the article or not)
 * anup == nay ... 74 is discussing with them on their talkpage, see User_talk:Anupmehra


 * tikuko == originally nay, but has indicated yea(?)


 * fiddlefaddle == yea, barely
 * 74 == yea, barely
 * clover == yea

About even. Wikipedia doesn't run on votes, we run on policy, so the vote-counts don't matter. But in this case, the vote-counts indicate the truth: it is unclear whether Duromac has enough sources. Duromac is right on the knife-edge of being wikiNotable. If we have enough sources, it is barely enough. Prose is good and neutral now. Formatting is pretty good. Pics are good. So what's left? There are three things that we can do.


 * 1)  or, after I finish talking things over with Anup, I can put my fancy new table-of-sources at the top of the Duromac article, and start asking a dozen other folks to come review our work.  If ten of them say yea, and two of them say nay, that's probably enough to get us into mainspace this week.  On the other hand, if ten say nay, and only two say yea, that's less good.  :-)
 * 2)  move it into mainspace, and nominate it for deletion ourselves.  This will get us ten votes quickly, on whether the article will survive "in the wild" or not.  (We can re-create it in AfC if the vote goes poorly.)
 * 3)  finally, as always, there is no WP:DEADLINE.  Duromac will be getting more press-coverage at some point.  It is just a question of when.  January?  February?  Summer? Fall?  2015?  Certainly by then, right?  Right.

I have some suggestions, along those lines, which are briefly mentioned up above, related to charity events, and similar things. Duromac can also get press coverage for being cool; journalists are partly in the business to communicate the truth to their readers, but they are also partly in the business to sell magazines/newspapers/etc. Duromac has a lot of cool equipment &mdash; maybe some automotive magazine will give you coverage. Custom hot rod street-sweepers?

The wikipedia article we have written together is a good one... we could really use one good magazine article, with ten paragraphs, and two photos, that covers Duromac in depth, and has their company-name right in the title of the piece. That's basically what we are lacking right now, to give the company *obvious* notability. Maybe the various ideas can be combined, and Duromac can hold an annual street-sweeping race of some sort (or an obstacle course with fifteen different kinds of trash to clean in the shortest time possible or something), with the proceeds going to charity, like one year of free powerboss sweeping services for a school or a hospital of the winner's choice or something like that. Anyways, while we wait for more press-coverage, the article about Duromac can stay in the AfC queue, as long as somebody comes along and makes a comment every couple months.

But before we decide to wait it out, aka choice#3, my suggestion is that we try choice#1, or maybe even choice#2. The main problem with choice#1 is that it will take time, because we'll have to ask people to check it out one by one, and people are busy, it takes at least half an hour to verify the Duromac article properly (as Anup is learning! :-)

If you want, we *can* skip straight to choice#2, which will be very quick indeed; move to mainspace in five minutes, nominate for deletion in one minute, seven days of voting, and then we either make it or we don't. Most of the people who show up for AfD are going to be deletionists, people that are worried about keeping spam out of wikipedia. (You've met some of those before I think.) Most of the people that show up for choice#1 are going to be more inclusionist, like Tikuko and myself. So we could actually try choice#1, and then if that works out, go for choice#2. Or, we could just go straight for choice#2, trial by fire. And of course, if you would rather, we can just kick back and relax for a couple months, and see if more press-coverage turns up.

It is basically up to you. I know you are tired of the roller-coaster, where your emotions go up, and then down, and then up, and then down. If we pick choice#2, it will all be over fast. Probably we'll end up in choice#3, is my prediction. But we'd *know* where we stood, before the month was over... and could go work on Alam Flora or maybe the BOH Plantation or some other articles you are interested in messing with. But if you are still hanging in there, probably choice#1 will give us the better sense of where we are, on the spectrum of wikiNotability.

p.s. I heard back from John of HSB, and he said there was an appeal to the court-case. I'm not sure if that means there is another source, or not. I'll have to ask. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 02:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:74.192.84.101&redirect=no

thank you, 74
Thank you so much, 74! i read your message carefully and i think we can go for choice 1 first. after you make a fancy new table of DUROMAC sources, we can start to ask folks to check DUROMAC article. until there is more than 8 people say yes, we can go for choice 2. How do you think of it? Thanks for your help again. --Clover1991 (talk) 04:29, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * You are surely welcome. Your plan sounds good.  I'm doing a big cleanup of the article right now, adding my fancy analysis-table plus a couple new sources I found (they are about the same events so they won't change the merits of the case... but sometimes just having "a lot" of sources to prove wide media-coverage is helpful).  Once I've done that, I'll start asking folks to come give it a look-see.  In the meantime, can you go check on Maartje, and see how Hako is coming?  I haven't been there in a while, but of our two translators Yngvadottir is sick, and Gerda is feeling sad about a good friend who got driven away from wikipedia by wikiStress.  There is a place somewhere to request translation-help, maybe you can find it?  Ask at WP:TEAHOUSE.  Thanks, and talk to you later. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:27, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, sounds good.I will ask Maartje how Hako is coming along. Thanks for your help! --Clover1991 (talk) 02:13, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have finished. See the awesome WT:Articles_for_creation/DUROMAC(M)_SDN_BHD article now.  :-)     New&improved&trade;!  Unfortunately, the argument in favor of WP:N requires a long explanation.  WP:WALLOFTEXT, my specialty.  Most of the AfC reviewers just like to glance it over, and approve-or-decline after a few minutes.  I will try and seek some of the folks I know that take their time, and we can slowly get a feel for whether this is gonna fly... or whether we just need to be patient, and wait for more sources to appear.  WP:DEADLINE.  I will think about some names, and then see who I can convince to read my TLDR commentary.  Talk to you later, my friend.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow! Looks good. Thank you. What can do for the article in the mean time? I am searching for magazines etc. that maybe can write a story. --Clover1991 (talk) 05:48, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you find some people to evaluate the page? Or would you like me to find people? I'm sorry I do not understand the explanation in page of duromac. Clover1991 (talk) 00:44, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have been swamped. :-)     One of the people I was going to ask was sick with the flu.  I have another to ask, but I have not saved my tab which is open with my message to them.  I did ask one person, but they were busy.  Also, I'm planning to ask Acroterion to give it a look-see again; they were working on a BLP article about a police officer in NYC, and I need to bug them about that first, but when I do, I'll mention Duromac's got a new and improved article, and see if they have time to mess with it.
 * What do you mean, when you say that you do not understand the explanation in the page of duromac? My big long table?  Or something else?  That big table is meant to prove wikiNotablity has been achieved by Duromac, to the people (see above) who come along to review it.
 * As to your question about what to do in the meanwhile, the article is finished. We have looked for sources; I looked again, for additional sources, and found some, and added them to the article (there was another source about Salmiah ... this one with two pictures of Duromac vehicles... nice elephant logo :-)       But yes, the best thing to improve our chances would be to discover additional sources about other events, not already covered inthe article.  This could be a new story, about the tech-park, or an old story from the 1990s, before magazines were put on the internet.  If you want to look for old sources, you can try visiting a librarian, or calling up the archives of The Star and the New Straits Times and the other journalists in the region... they may have something in the stacks, or on microfiche, old school before the web took over.  Another thing you might want to try, is look at WP:MOS, and correcting all our commas and dashes and other stylistic things.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Seberang Prai
Here is something you can try.


 * 1)  http://online.mpsp.gov.my/tawaran.asp
 * 2)  http://online.mpsp.gov.my/bukatender.asp
 * 3)  http://online.mpsp.gov.my/bukatender1.asp?rujukan=S0413109

Duromac is not listed there now, but the 3rd link has a lookup-feature, if we know the XNNNNNNN figures. What are the contract-numbers for Duromac with Seberang Prai Council? They would look like this: T0413132, S0413128 , something like that. If we can find the contracts on the MPSP website, that would come close to proving "Good & Thorough Job" was actually about Duromac. Hope this helps. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:41, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Wow, how did you find all of this. How do you find all your references? Do you use search engines? I will try to find out what contract-number it is. I cannot find a lookup-feature in 3th link.

Duromac started in 1996 so before that there will probably be nothing to find. --Clover1991 (talk) 00:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is www.duckduckgo.com  search engine stuff.  It takes some practice to get good at it, but if you work on rescuing enough wikipedia articles from WP:AfD, and improving them in WP:AfC, you absolutely positively *will* get better at finding references.  I'm actually thinking about programming a custom search-portal, which will query the engines using their API features, and then sort the hits with WP:RS at the top, instead of buried deep inside amongst the blogs and directory-websites and such.  Then I will sell access to my newfound-powers for  One Million Dollars!  :-)     &mdash;  74.192.84.101 (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Wow, a custom search-portal, that's a big project! Are you working on it with more people or on your own? Where do you want to programm that? (sorry I do not know that much about computer programming, but i'm trying to learn more) --Clover1991 (talk) 02:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think I found the number. T0412017 I still cannot find the lookup-feaature in the 3th link --Clover1991 (talk) 02:46, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Here is the lookup, if that is the correct number. http://online.mpsp.gov.my/bukatender1.asp?rujukan=T0412017


 * MAJLIS PERBANDARAN SEBERANG PERAI
 * JALAN PERDA UTAMA, BANDAR PERDA,14000 BUKIT MERTAJAM,
 * PULAU PINANG.
 * Telefon:(04)5497555,Faks:(04)5389700
 * Laman Web:http//wwww.mpsp.gov.my
 * Emel : mailto:perolehan@mpsp.gov.my
 * Nombor Sebutharga / Tender : T0412017
 * Harap Maaf. Sudah tamat tempoh ==  We're Sorry. Already expired

So maybe it used to be in there, but is expired now, and therefore removed. (Or maybe the number is just wrong. :-)

You can see if the information is archived at the following websites:


 * http://archive.is
 * http://archive.org    (aka the original Internet Wayback Machine)
 * http://webcitation.org
 * http://google.com  (in the Google Cache)

Just pump in http://online.mpsp.gov.my/bukatender1.asp?rujukan=T0412017 as the URL you are seeking, and see if one of them has it stored. If those four do *not* have the information, then I suggest you email the nice folks, and request that they please temporarily post the contract-documents onto their website again. If they agree, then use the archive-services above to *capture* the info, right? Then it is okay if the document is removed again later. Hope this helps.

p.s. I have asked Richie 333 to check out the Duromac article, and they said they would set aside some time for it when they were able to pay proper attention. A good sign, we need a careful review, not a quick glance. Yngvadottir is still coughing, but they'll be next, if Acroterion doesn't beat them to it. What about hako and the alam stuff, have you had any time to mess with those? Maartje said they were interested in doing some wikiVoyage pages, that might be fun. Do you have any interest in travel-type stuff like that? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 19:12, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I searched on the websites but did not find any information. I sent an e-mail to the addres, so I hope to get an answer soon :)

I'm not very interested in wikiVoyage. I was acctualy trying to learn more and help on articles but I read some information but do not really know where to start. Good to hear that Richie 333 can check the DUROMAC article. Thank you so much! --Clover1991 (talk) 02:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh and I havent heared from Maartje in a while, she is travelling so she doesn't have much time i think. --Clover1991 (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

resumption of effort
Hi Clover, good to hear from you. I have been down with the stomach virus, and lazy in trying to finish Duromac's saga of wikipedia. Richie never made it by the draft, from what I can tell. I cannot remember if I asked acroterion to mess with it or not. I had some cleanups stored in another browser-tab, but that is stuck in my frozen OS at the moment (computer problems). But besides all those excuses, sure, I'm interesting in getting Duromac to work still. :-)   74.192.84.101 (talk) 13:34, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi 74, I hope you are feeling better. Please let me know what I can do? --Clover1991 (talk) 20:59, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/DUROMAC(M) SDN BHD concern
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Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/DUROMAC(M) SDN BHD concern
Hi there, I'm HasteurBot. I just wanted to let you know that Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/DUROMAC(M) SDN BHD, a page you created, has not been edited in 6 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

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Your draft article, Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/DUROMAC(M) SDN BHD


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