User talk:Codedon/Archives/My Rocky Beginning

Welcome and introduction
Hi, Codedon. This is NOT some automated message...it's from a real person. You can talk to me right now. Welcome to Wikipedia! I noticed you've just joined, and wanted to give you a few tips to get you started. If you have any questions, please talk to us. The tips below should help you to get started. Best of luck!  Chzz  ►  22:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Coaching
I want to know how I can get adoption.


 * You can get an adoption by going to WP:ADOPT. Cheers,  F ASTILYsock (T ALK ) 22:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec)


 * When you leave messages, please remember to "sign" your name, by putting ~ (four tilde signs) at the end. This will add your name, and the date and time. You can also do this by clicking the 'sign' button, pictured here.


 * Head over to Adopt-a-User, and follow the instructions.


 * For more help, you can either;


 * Leave a message on my own talk page;
 * Use a - please create a new section at the end of your own talk page, put , and ask your question - remember to 'sign' your name by putting ~ at the end;
 * Talk to us live, with this or this.


 * The last of those is particularly useful - please try it; pop in now and say hello.  Chzz  ►  22:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I already followed the directions for adoption. I was waiting, but no one came, so I decided to try helpme. Codedon (talk) 22:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Adoption
Hello ,

I saw you were looking into adoption! I'd like to offer myself to help you out! Being an experienced editor, with several successful articles and many edits, I thought I would be a good choice! I love to work with new users; they have so much potential! I know how it feels to be a newbie in the ever so confusing Wikipedia. I'm working on a New Users program and I would be so happy to work with you. Before you accept, you might want to look over the adoption guidelines and understand:
 * Forever. Once experienced, an Adoptee will be able to graduate, though likely to stay in touch with their Adopter.
 * A social club. Though fun, Adoption is there to help users use and improve Wikipedia.
 * Just for the newest of users. It is also for users with limited experience who want to expand their involvement.
 * A shield. Adoptees remain solely responsible for their behavior.

There are many benefits to adoption and I'm glad you'd like to get involved. If you're interested, please drop me a line!

Thank you, mono 00:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)--mono 00:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I would be delighted to be adopted by you! Codedon (talk) 03:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Word
Although the space allotted here can't possibly suffice to elaborate on the dictatorial smears by the Wikipedia community on neophytes, I must endeavor nevertheless to convey my point.

First off, I would like to offer a piece of advice &mdash; the use of the particular welcome template I was given should be ceased immediately. I was overwhelmed as a new user, intimidated by the hundreds of useless links that were hurled at me.

Second, Fastilysock and Chzz, perhaps you should glance at a new user's contributions before giving them useless messages asking them to do this and that, when the user has already done "this and that". Though I was not satisfied with your answer, I was grateful that both of you provided a polite leavetaking.

Third, perhaps the most acrid review I will give, Mono, you failed my expectations. You gave me your boiler template for adoption. However, when I replied, no one regarded it with any significance. I was left in solitude, with no clue as to how to get started. You have not responded to me in four days. If I were the manager of this place, I would have fired you eons ago. This is horrible customer service. Mono, please treat your adoptees with more respect; you will be more successful that way.

It's quite unfortunate and heart-wrenching that a place that boasts "anyone can edit" shuns and outcasts the inexperienced that dare venture over. In the future, I hope that as a community, you will learn to accept the flaws of newcomers, as all have flaws, and welcome them, embrace them in better showing than you have shown me.

If any of you are willing to win back any of your dignity, please feel free to carry on with getting me started as if this never happened. Codedon (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The welcome template used has been carefully designed based on user feedback - There are not useless links. There are links to some great help and important policies. If you had violated a policy (even without knowing it) you may have been blocked. It's far better for you to know ahead of time what is acceptable or not.


 * I am not sure what you mean here. I don't see where Fastilysock or Chzz has asked you to do anything, nor any indication that you have done something. From what I can see, you have less than 15 edits, and none of those are on any page other than your user or user talk page.


 * You replied to mono on your user talk page. While hopefully they are watching this page, it is possible that they may not have seen the edit. You did not leave a on mono's talk page. While as a new user you may not know this, it is mentioned in one of those "useless" links in the welcome template - see here. I should also point out that there are no managers here - Wikipedia consists entirely of volunteers. No one is forced to pay attention to newcomers at all, so the simple fact that someone tried to reach out to you should count for something.


 * Also, looking at your talk page, I do not see anywhere where someone has "shunned and outcasted" you. There are no warnings, no messages saying not to do this or that, only positive messages. We were all new once, and try to offer help as best we can, tailored toward the new editor recieving it. I do not see where anyone's dignity has been lost.


 * There are tons of people willing to help you, myself included. Besides the helpme tag you used, you can also go to a number of places: the help desk, the new contributors' help page, searching for answers to common questions on Help:Contents, or hoping on Wikipedia's live help chat, with this or this. Also, please feel free to leave me a message. I hope I have helped to explain some things for you. Avic enna sis @ 20:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

In reply to your second paragraph, Fastilysock and Chzz told me to "get an adoption by going to WP:ADOPT" and "[h]ead over to Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User, and follow the instructions" respectively. I had already followed the damn instructions. My first edit was to my user page, adding the adoption template. I was "shunned and outcasted" when I was ignored. I accepted the adoption and was waiting for Mono to teach me something. I waited four days until I finally thought, "This is enough."

Everyone who posted on this talk page including you has lost an integral part of their dignity &mdash; the ability to interact politely with newcomers and welcome them into the "cozy" community that is here.

Regarding this: "No one is forced to pay attention to newcomers at all, so the simple fact that someone tried to reach out to you should count for something," I am repulsed by your hostility. No one is forced to pay attention to newcomers? What kind of community is this?

I am justifiably disappointed with your reply and everyone else. Codedon (talk) 20:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I never intended to appear hostile or unpolite toward you in any regard. I was merely trying to point out that you should be thankful someone had tried to help you, even if they failed in the attempt. I feel that since I have already lost dignity in your eyes, I will not be able to assist you further. I wish you luck and good will if you decide to stay a member of the Wikipedia community, and hope you are able to find help and assistance from others who may be better qualified. Regards, Avic enna sis @ 21:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Though you have lost dignity in my eyes, I would wish that you try to get me started. I have tried to edit some articles, but I am unsure whether I am doing it right since I have nobody to guide me. Please be that person. Codedon (talk) 21:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorry you feel that way. I'd be happy to help you if you'd like.--mono 19:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Mono, it does not seem as if you'd be happy to help me. I sense no remorse on your part for deserting me. Codedon (talk) 21:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to help you, however, I do not feel remorseful. I cannot monitor everything all the time, so I rely on editors notifying me of new "stuff".--mono 23:50, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you "do not feel remorseful", I no longer want to interact with such disruptive people. The adoption template on my page is now a disgrace. I don't want to interact with you anymore, yet I wish to see what you have to offer. Answer the question I gave to Malleus. Codedon (talk) 23:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

See below. Insert non-formatted text here

Your edits to Alemomer's talk page
Hi, it would be great if you didn't tell your subjectively bad experiences with other Wikipedians to other newcomers. But if you have to, please, at least don't remove the tag, when you didn't actually help him, so that others can do so. Thanks. Svick (talk) 20:20, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I did answer the question. The newcomer would not receive any help and he did indeed receive no help. Your reply gave him no useful advice. And I see you haven't removed the helpme thingy after you posted your useless reply. In effect, you are agreeing with me that you gave no useful advice. It's a harsh reality, but it's the damn truth. Codedon (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The user was asking what can he do to help save the article he created and you didn't answer that. And I readded the template, because I thought someone else could give him better advice than me, or extend it (which actually happened). Svick (talk) 20:40, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

It's quite unfortunate that you don't think much of yourself and your edits. Unlike you, I have a high self-esteem and stand for what I believe. Learn from me, and I will learn from you if you ever get your act together. Codedon (talk) 20:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have no intention in learning from you (at least from what I have seen so far). You also didn't respond to the first part. And I'm not going to talk about myself or yourself here, that's not why I'm here. Svick (talk) 21:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Svick, this discussion is not going to be productive if you continue baiting me. Please desist immediately. Codedon (talk) 21:47, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Talkback
Avic enna sis @ 21:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

My 10c worth
Hi there.

Personally, I do not participate in the 'official' adoption program. However, I do help out lots of new users, every single day. I can assure you that I, personally, take a great deal of care to try and make new users as welcome as possible, and I help them in any way that I can.

I understand your disappointment with the adoption programme, but please understand that we are all volunteers.

I am very saddened to hear that you don't like my 'welcome'. I have tried very hard to make it as simple and clear as possible, and in many cases it has helped new users to get started. I specifically removed the excessive negative links that are in the more 'standard' welcomes, such as Template:Welcomeh. I saw those as being along the lines of, "Hi, welcome, and here are lots of rules and stuff you should not do". In writing my own version, my intent was to say "Hi, welcome, please edit pages, and there is lots of help if you need it".

To be honest, I am really quite upset that you think I should be "ceased immediately". I like to think that I am one of the most dedicated Wikipedians in offering assistance to new users.

Regarding your 'helpme', both myself and Fastily answered your question very quickly and thoroughly. No, we did not check your contributions; we both 'assumed' that you wanted the link to the adoption programme. Perhaps this was wrong; I'm sorry - I will try to check contributions more thoroughly in the future, although sometimes this is not feasible given time constraints.

Unfortunately, I did not see your follow-up message saying that you had already tried that; usually, I do check back, but on this occasion I did not.

I am greatly saddened that your first experiences on Wikipedia have been so poor. I personally struggle all the time, to keep things as simple and welcoming as possible. Sadly, with 3 million articles and 10 million users, it it challenging.

I suggest that we draw a line under the problems that you have experienced.

Please make free use of the, or leave messages on my talk page, and I do assure you that I will help in any way that I can.  Chzz  ►  06:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for explaining your assumption of good faith. Codedon (talk) 21:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Reverted your revision to User_talk:Mono
, however, no thank you. mono 23:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Why did you revert it? I fixed that shit up to improve your image on Wikipedia. I am doing this for your own good. When I went to your page and saw that bullshit smearing and smelling up your talk page, I thought, "How unkempt this guy is!" Codedon (talk) 00:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Talkback
Avic enna sis @ 08:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

April 2010
This is the only warning you will receive regarding your disruptive comments. The next time you make a personal attack, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. mono 20:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You have no grounds to assume that I made a personal attack. I did comment on your content -- your despicable error of maintaining garbage like "| }}" on your page. On a side note, you are to be blamed for this if it really is a personal attack. You never guided me in the first place!
 * It is a personal attack on your part for saying that I made a personal attack when I did not. Consider this your only warning. The next time you make a personal attack, you will be blocked from editing without further notice. Codedon (talk) 21:27, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Due to WP:DIVA, I shall let a different editor work with you. Obviously, you have no wish to work with me and your actions are uncivil and bordering on personal attempts.  Note that I have much more experience than you and retaliation does not get you anywhere.  Best wishes, mono 00:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When people start relying on their tenure to make themselves all "high and mighty", it is patently obvious that they don't have the upper hand in a discussion. Please stop trolling my talk page and leaving bullshit templates here. Fuck off. Codedon (talk) 00:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, mono, your experience isn't showing, because your templating and tone is rather immature. I'm not trying to be rude, I want to let you know that just having "much more experience" means nothing, and Codedon's response to that is entirely appropriate.  fetch  comms  ☛ 02:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me clarify: attacking people is never right, and retaliation is not either: go to WP:ANI next time. But I stand by my opinion that templating people and saying that you have more experience than them is meaningless and condescending, as well as very rude and immature.  fetch  comms  ☛ 02:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm responding to mono's report on WP:AIV. I agree with the above- personal attacks are never acceptable. However, as I don't see any reason why you can't just move on from this. Consider this a warning not to swear or otherwise attack other people, but get on with improving articles. Peter 10:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * @Fetchcomms-
 * %Templates- See response on my talkpage about templates being designed to "point out rules to newer users who may not know them."
 * %Reporting to admins- In the future, I will bring reports of this nature to WP:ANI.
 * @Peter- I agree that I am not the right editor to adopt Codeon, after these issues, however I believe we can move on from this issue.
 * @Codeon- See above.--mono 15:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If we've all moved on then, I think everyone's learned a little something from this and we can go on writing some articles.  fetch  comms  ☛ 18:48, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for purposely misspelling my name, Mono. You've already done it before: Re: Adoption. I've called you out for your misrepresentations of my name, and yet you do it again That really isn't cool, you know. Do you want to keep antagonizing me? Codedon (talk) 22:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Peter, please provide the quotes where I personally attacked anyone. When "bullshit" and "fuck" are used, they are not always attacking someone. Swearing is not being incivil; please do not misrepresent my meaning. I did not mean them as personal attacks &mdash; I was just venting my frustration. If I wanted to make personal attacks, I would say "User X is bullshit" or "Fuck User X". Codedon (talk) 22:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Like this, you mean? – iride  scent  22:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that "fuck off" is a personal attack? Who am I attacking? Codedon (talk) 22:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Please stop trolling my talk page and leaving bullshit templates here. Fuck off." Don't pretend that's not directed at whoever left the template in question. – iride  scent  22:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the above link is one I had in mind. I think telling someone to fuck off is a personal attack, at the very least needlessly uncivil. The who is mono, your message apeared to be in reply to his, and therefore directed at him, and not general venting. I'm sure I could dig out more as well, but really I don't want to have to. Please just leave mono alone and move on. Peter 22:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Telling someone to fuck off is not a personal attack. How am I attacking his character? Don't make uninformed claims. As for Iridescent, telling someone to stop trolling and leaving templates cannot be considered a personal attack. The most you could call it is attacking the templates. Codedon (talk) 22:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said, at the very least it's not being civil. Take a look at Civility. As I also said it wasn't just that one edit/comment, but I'm really trying to help you out here by not dragging it all up. Just stop it, and I wont. Peter 22:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you saying I need to apologize? Codedon (talk) 22:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't say it's what I had in mind when giving you the link, but not a bad idea. I was more thinking that you should be reading bits like "editors should always endeavor to treat each other with consideration and respect... ...in order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment." and "rudeness... lead to unproductive stress and conflict". Also assuming good faith helps. Peter 22:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I will try to assume good faith, but it's really hard to in the face of this []. Why did he do that to me? It seems like he's trying to antagonize me by removing my cleansing of his dirty talk page. Codedon (talk) 23:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Talkback templates are removed once the message in question has been read, to indicate they've been received. It's nothing to do with any kind of attack on you. – iride  scent  23:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My mistake. I was referring to this []. Codedon (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't why he reverted that edit, it does seem to be lacking in good faith from his side. I still suggest you just leave it though. Peter 10:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's what I was thinking. Can you remove it or tell him to remove it? It looks really disgusting. Codedon (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's his own choice in the end (as it's his page) regardless, though. I want to say good job on Sutherland Trail, Codedon!  fetch  comms  ☛ 23:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's his choice to leave such putrid garbage on the page. By the way, thanks for your encouragement. I'm glad that I'm doing better than Mono. I've seen the articles he created and thought, "Damn!" All of them except the one I worked on have big ugly boxes at the top. I saw he even added one to his own article Cahill Branches. Codedon (talk) 00:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Reverted your revision to User_talk:Mono
If you leave a talkback notification on my talk page, please remember not to disrupt the formatting of other entries. , mono 00:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we must insist that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. mono 00:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Welcome - how can I help?
Hello! Saw your plea for help... how can we help you? I'd be pleased to help, although I'm far from a senior Wikipedian.--Voxpuppet (talk • contribs) 00:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. My plea for help was ignored about 12 days ago. Are you coming now to meet that request? Codedon (talk) 00:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The date
It is currently April 2010, not November 2008. Stop retrospectively marking up articles as if they were tagged in the past when they clearly haven't been, as you just did here and here. – iride  scent  00:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I think that placing it in the older categories is an incentive for editors such as Mono to get their act together. I'm sorry if I've messed up anything. I'll remember to tag it as April 2010. Thanks for letting me know! Codedon (talk) 00:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding your edit at conversation threading, the article is "clearly referenced", but that's not what I was complaining about with the big ugly boxes. I was asking that the references be improved. That relates to having original research. Much of it is written based upon experience. There's no way this accounts for the entire article. The other references given do not relate to the article, and one is a dead link. Codedon (talk) 01:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That is not only not the only reference, as I'm sure you know perfectly well; at the time you tagged the article it wasn't even listed as one of the three references. "Dead link" is no grounds for discounting a reference, especially in a case like this when it's easily verified that it was a genuine reference. I strongly suggest you stop this; if you're a genuine good faith user you're rapidly exhausting AGF; if you're a troll, you're not being entertaining, just tedious. – iride  scent  01:25, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear; as you noted above, you're intentionally targeting articles created by an editor you're having a dispute with and placing nuisance tags on them?  Kuru   (talk)  01:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:POINT  Chzz  ►  01:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ← Please stop adding big ugly boxes because everyone knows tagging articles without bothering to improve them is useless. If you don't want to bother improving the page, just move on to one you want to improve. Sutherland Trail was good work, now just do the same for others.  fetch  comms  ☛ 01:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Blocked
As an obvious trolling account of an experienced (very likely blocked) editor. I almost chickened out and just warned you not to harass Mono anymore, but that would be doing a disservice to all the people spending their valuable time trying to help you. I apologize to everyone for not blocking you a couple of days ago, when my troll radar went of the first time, but I wasn't 100% sure. Now I am. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry case
Your name has been mentioned in connection with a sockpuppetry case. Please refer to Sockpuppet investigations/Codedon for evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with the guide to responding to cases before editing the evidence page. – iride  scent  02:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry
}}


 * Since I won't be around much this weekend, I'll leave a quick summary of my thoughts here; the reviewing admin should feel free to make the decision without my further input.
 * I'm not terribly convinced by Codedon's story. It seems clear to me that he is a long term user (not the occasional user claimed), with either (a) a chip on his shoulder, or (b) a desire to intentionally disrupt the encyclopedia for amusement (i.e. a troll). The fact that I don't believe that part of the story makes me less likely to believe the rest.
 * While I think an unblock and close watching would work if it's option (a) above, I don't think it will work if it's option (b). My gut tells me (b), frankly, but other admins may have a different opinion.
 * The article below may be enough to convince people it's option (a); if so, I won't argue.
 * If Codedon is unblocked, I suggest a short leash for fucking with other people; and a zero tolerance policy on interacting with User:mono, or his articles. If Codedon finds this demeaning, that's a clue that this isn't going to work.
 * You often hear that unblocking is cheap, because re-blocking is so easy. That's true, if re-blocking doesn't require a long drawn out discussion, suggestions of unblocking with a mentor as a "final, final" chance, etc.  The problem with unblocking troublesome users is you often end up wasting more time having the same "give him a last chance" discussion again and again.  So if this is done, make it clear that this is not a "do-over", but a final chance to prove that I'm wrong, a poor judge of character, and Codedon is going to be a productive editor after all.
 * --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Peter. I promise to remain within my pledge and the conditions stipulated in your ultimatum. Codedon (talk) 03:40, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I, for, agree with giving you this last chance--but remember, it is your last. I hope to see much more constructive article work out of you, Codedon, because what you've started below looks like a fine job to me.  fetch  comms  ☛ 02:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support, Fetchcomms. I will not disappoint you. Codedon (talk) 03:40, 12 April 2010 (UTC)