User talk:Colin MacLaurin/Archive 3

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From 7puritan
Hi! I don't want to talk here, but I would be very glad, if you could write to me an e-mail. I am from Poland (Europe) :-) My e-mail: [snip - CM] 7puritan (talk) 12:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Geoffrey Paxton
Hi Colin -

I found your article on Geoff Paxton by Googling - I can tell you that (presumably after leaving the Bible College in Queensland) he was pastor of Box Hill Reformed Church in Melbourne for about a year, before quitting abruptly. I'd guess that it was around 1981. You could try contacting the church for more precision.

While Mr Paxton was with us he was an extraordinary, powerful, passionate preacher with pretty much one theme - Justification by Faith. His preaching was so good as to hold the rapt attention of children (I was only 8 at the time), with whom he had a warm rapport. He also liked to crack jokes from the pulpit which, it was said, caused the elders to ask him to tone it down a bit. I still have a tape or two of him somewhere.

All the best with expanding your article.

warm regards,

Ben Palmer Melbourne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.214.155.54 (talk) 03:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That's interesting Ben, thanks for sharing. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 07:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

FGBMFI (HHahn)
Hello mr. MacLaurin,

Thanks for your comment on the FGBMFI page I wrote. Indeed I do have some questions, I first wrote an article on FGBMFI in the Dutch Wikipedia. Within 5 (five!) minutes this attracted a deletion proposal! Here in the Netherlands evangelical christianity is usually considered "not done" by the not-so-silent majority. Although there also came some neutral or even slightly positive reactions, I wanted to gather more reactions from outside our language area. That is why I also made the English article. (You may already have noticed that I am not an anglosaxon myself...). Well, I must say that the reactions on the German page are even worse...

From your personal page a gather that you are more or less open to things charismatic as well. Sounds good.

What I wanted to finally achieve with the FGBMFI pages, is attrating attention for the fact that faith is more than just doctrines, rules-of-life, an opinion(!), a belief, or whatever. In the course og twenty centuries the church has made a tremendous mess of it. Organistions like FGBMFI, CBMC, ICCC, Aglow, and many others just try to show that faith is real, and that it leads to "physical" and often even medically provable results.

What I urgently need is references to independent sources, such as articles in newspapers etc. that are totally independent of FGBMFI and possibly even independent of any form of religion. Do you have such information? Here in NL evangelical organisations are usually completely ignored in the press, except if something bad happens and the can be depicted as "sects".

Thanks for your help.

HHahn (talk) 10:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC) (Typos coreected HHahn (talk) 21:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC))


 * Hi HHahn, this article was overdue and is unquestionably notable - I have added some sources to it to go someways towards demonstrating this. Remember you must use a "neutral point of view", not attempt to demonstrate the benefits of charismatic expressions of faith. Cheers, Colin MacLaurin (talk) 03:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello mr. MacLaurin. Thanks for adding recerences and further editing the FGBMFI article. However, in your references, you also include the Happiest People on earth. I already mentioned that under Literarure. As it this book is written by the founder, it is by definition not neutral. So I would prefer not to mention it as a reference, as that would suggest it is neutral.
 * Further, I do not understand what you mean with "This article was overdue..." in your comment above.


 * Hi HHahn, "no worries" (Australian way of saying, "you're welcome"). By saying, "This article is overdue" I meant that it is an important topic, and that I'm glad somebody has created it (you). In other words, I am pleased you wrote it. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 10:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks HHahn (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

What about the double mentioning of the Happiest People? I would suggest to leave it where it is, i.e. under Literature, and remove it from References, because it is written by the founder and is therefore not impartial. On the other hand, could Val Fotherby's The awakening giant be considered more or less neutral? Actually, her husband David Fotherby is an FGBMFI field rep. or so. So this book is at least not "obviously" neutral.

HHahn (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * With Happiest People, up to you - I trust your judgement. I am not familiar with the sources for FGBMFI. While statements should be referenced by reliable independent secondary sources, I think it is fine to list some books written by the movement itself, somewhere. A note of the author's personal persuasion would be helpful. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Your Deletion of Valuable Encyclopedic Content
Colin MacLaurin, Please explain why you removed so much notable content and clarification as to what Graham Maxwell's critics assert? Also, do you know Professor Wikipedia? --e.Shubee (talk) 15:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I will reply on Talk:Graham Maxwell. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 09:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC) The video was hilarious. Bagging Wikipedia but Encyclopedia Britannica had it even worse. :-) Colin MacLaurin (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Former Seventh-day Adventists
What is know his religious stance?--Vojvodae 15:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He now describes himself as an agnostic. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 11:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.158.93 (talk)

Thanks
For quick answer.--Vojvodaeist 12:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Year-Day Principle Page
Wow this page is ugly (Year-Day Principle), or perhaps I am naive but I find the tone discomforting and somewhat self-serving. Regardless I wondered if the talk given by Jon Paulien for the 2008 Adventist Theological Society could advance the conversation concerning the year-day principle? I am a novice to this forum and do not want to directly cite the article as I am unsure if that violates any rules.

http://atsjats.org

Thanks and all the best.

Vusi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.172.176 (talk) 16:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Vusi, actually it's a rule that you should cite reliable sources (for any statement which could potentially be disputed) - see Verifiability. As Jon Paulien is a leading Adventist scholar, he is a very good source to cite. All major points of view must be represented, and in proportion to their significance (Neutral point of view). Colin MacLaurin (talk) 01:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now added the talk in the "External links" section. You may wish to move it into the main body of text instead, with a short (perhaps one line) summary of Paulien's viewpoint, followed by the reference. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 01:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd be very happy to introduce you to Wikipedia editing. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 01:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church
You have contributed your opinion on this topic so you might find this interesting: It appears that the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church has admitted in court to only having three members. See Case 1:06-cv-01207-JDB Document 70 Filed 06/11/2008 page 3. Doesn't that prove the central thesis in Walter McGill and the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church Hoax is true and therefore that Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church is not notable and therefore should be deleted? --e.Shubee (talk) 21:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * E.Shubee, "Hoax" is your terminology and non-neutral. While Wikipedia can't source from your own website, the detail is useful. Page 3 of your copy says the fact you state, and also claims there is a second three-member church in Canada. Note that court records are a primary source, to be used minimally and do not contribute to notability. However membership is a crucial detail, and I recommend the fact be added, providing it can be referenced from the original document. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 11:26, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Only defenders of a hoax would claim that "Hoax" is non-neutral. See Do not create hoaxes. --e.Shubee (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Adventist assessment
You know much more about the subject than I do, so your input is more than welcome. The one thing I would add is that, basically, it seems to me to make sense that the articles directly linked to in the navigation template for the church would logically all be of "Top" importance. That, presumably, would be why they are included in the template used in the main article of any given church, as the templates are supposed to basically be a quick link to all the requisite material on that body. If you agree with that (and you don't have to), you may consider adding or subtracting articles from the template to reflect their status. John Carter (talk) 12:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That is a very good point, and I now understand your assessments. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 05:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Robert V. Gentry
An article that you have been involved in editing, Robert V. Gentry, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Borock (talk) 06:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

James Edson White
You are welcome to improve James Edson White. I had one of his books and wanted to know more about him, so I wrote an article. Some pictures from this book (now in PD) may be useful to Wikipedia. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:AvondaleCollegeLogo.jpg)
Thanks for uploading File:AvondaleCollegeLogo.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Adding of reference to Guy Sebastian page
I am curious as to why you added the book written by L. B. Bermingham to the references on Guy Sebastian's page. I and another editor have completely rewritten Guy's page over the last few months, and did not refer to that book once, only the 160 reference articles already listed. Took us hundreds of hours to do the research and I am rather annoyed that book is sitting as the first reference. Having it as a reference at all is very misleading. At the very least it should be listed UNDER the other references, or better still removed all together. IT WAS NOT USED to rewrite the page.

Natbelle (talk) 01:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

SDA Bible Commentary and 666
Hi Colin, Do you have access to an SDA Bible Commentary? I don't, but I'm trying to chase up the whole issue of 666 and Vicarius Fili Dei. See the discussion at: Talk:Seventh-day Adventist eschatology Ta. Tonicthebrown (talk) 12:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have access to a very old version, the original one I think. I will check it, but the latest version is definitely preferred, of course. Also if there was a difference, that could be illustrative for the article also. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 07:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding now. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 04:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Invitation to Adventist WikiProject
Thanks for that invitation to join "WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church". I've taken a bit of time to think about it but I prefer to work alone as currently, I'm aiming to create stubs for every single Seventh-day Adventist secondary school/university. DZadventiste (talk) 04:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries, all the best. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 04:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter - July 2009
John Carter (talk) 20:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: Welcome
Hi,

Thanks for the welcome. I've been around the site for a year or two off and on, however I'm still learning most of the policies, writing conventions, editing methods, terms, etc. Seems to be a lot to figure out. Qinael (talk) 02:19, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Judgment Day Has Come
IT IS SO ORDERED this, the 6th day of January, 2010, that all persons acting in concert with Defendant (WALTER MCGILL, d/b/a CREATION SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH, et al.,)… are hereby ENJOINED from using or enabling the use of such domain names and websites:

www.creationseventhdayadventistchurch.ca www.csdadventistchurch.co.cc www.csdachurch.co.cc/ www.csdachurch.0adz.com www.creationsdadventistrelief.to www.csda-adventistchurch.to www.creationsdadventistrelief.to www.adventistry.org www.creationseventhdayadventist.org.rw www.creationsdarelief.0adz.com www.seventhdayadventistsda-v-creation7thdayadventistcsda-uslawsuit.net www.seventhdayadventism.org www.7thdayadventism.org/ www.whypastorwaltermcgillisnotaffiliatedwithgcsdaadventistchurch.net www.csdachurch.wordpress.com www.csda-korea.org www.creationseventhdayadventistreliefprojectsint.ltd.ug www.seventhdayadventistchurchfoundwanting.us www.home.comcast.net/~7thdayadventist www.home.comcast.net/~csdachurch www.home.comcast.net/~creationsda www.home.comcast.net/~creation-adventist www.binaryangel.net www.thefourthangel.net www.home.comcast.net/~creation-sabbath www.home.comcast.net/~barbara_lim www.home.comcast.net/~crmin

s/ J. DANIEL BREEN, UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

Great Controversy book
I just typed up a whole page to you, and it went into the ether.... To recap - I'm sorry for the William Peterson mistake i made a few months back. Is it OK to add "Opposing" in the External Links section for the ellenwhiteexposed link? Is it OK to add "Some" to "Adventist scholars have claimed historical inaccuracies in the book." That statement sounds like ALL Adventist scholars claim that. Actually, i know of only a FEW scholars who claim that. I'm a fundamentalist Seventh-day Adventist, just trying to spread the Three Angels' last messages of mercy to a world headed for destruction, thanking you for your nice input to this article :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Earlysda (talk • contribs) 04:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Earlysda, no worries about the mistake - we all make them. The content guideline on external links recommends including "a concise description of the contents and a clear indication of its source", like what you suggest. About the scholars, your suggestion seems more accurate at the moment, since I don't know of a reliable source which says all scholars believe the book is fallible. Yet on the other hand, do you know of any church scholars (i.e. theology lecturers) who claim the book isn't? I would be interested to know what the White Estate documents say on the matter. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 13:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Seventh-day Adventist Church
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. You are being notified as you have made a number of contributions to the article. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Seventh-day Adventist Church/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Western Highlands Adventist Students' Association


The article Western Highlands Adventist Students' Association has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * No references given, no WP:RS found. non-notable, fails WP:ORG

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

I saw from the history that you had some input into this new page, hence notification of the prod. Plutonium27 (talk) 15:58, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

tx
Hi Colin, tx for creating the wiki entry for Eternity - well written and much appreciated!

If you feel inclined I have promised my brother a while ago I would do a wiki page for him but I don't really know how to create it in a way it won't get deleted - I think he has enough of a name to have an entry, and would be happy for you to create one for him, only if you have time or inclination - his site is at www.richardmaegraith.com

tx again,

David Maegraith Publisher Eternity —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.8.1 (talk) 09:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi David, thanks for your appreciation – it's unusual! I made a few minor improvements today. In order to not get deleted, articles must demonstrate "notability" by providing a significant quality of reliable secondary sources – see Verifiability. I believe Eternity will be notable, however it does need more sources presently. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 00:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 04:38, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Rick Joyner
Hello Colin,

Were you able to access information you needed on Rick Joyner? Forgive my tardy response, but I just came across your discussion on the Rick Joyner wiki page.

As a Christian talk show host, I have interviewed Rick Joyner on several occasions and am aware of various controversies surrounding his work.

If you wish confidential, off-the-record email or Skype conversations regarding Rick Joyner I am willing to participate - as a semi-informed source - on the phenomenon generally known as the Kansas City Prophetic Movement.

I am also interested in the world of Wikipedia. I use the service myself often but there is a nagging sense that some information is greatly restrained or deleted through a type of broad political correctness. If you’re willing to relate some of your experiences to give me some genuine context and an honest view into this sphere, I would be grateful to better inform my listeners about Wikipedia.

May I state that I am not interested in additional notoriety or promotion through this exchange, only furthering truth concerning the current state of Christianity. Please contact me at sduignan@talktosteve.com.

Thank you, Steve Duignan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.178.68.188 (talk) 20:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Seventh-day Adventism in popular culture


The article Seventh-day Adventism in popular culture has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Primarily trivia

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeffro 77 (talk) 00:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Formatting ACF Article
Thanks so much for helping clean up my bad formatting on the article "Adventist Christian Fellowship"! I tried to do it right, but don't have a lot of experience. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drkslvr (talk • contribs) 13:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You did a great job, actually. The content was a useful addition to Wikipedia and the Adventist WikiProject specifically, and the formatting was good. Glad I could add a few small touches. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 13:56, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

You might want to know
An editor (Willfults) with a very strong historic adventist POV is making major revisions to several of the Adventism articles which you have worked on. He has deleted a lot of well sourced material that he does not like because it conflicts with his POV. I have tried to put a stop to some of what he is doing, but am not able to monitor ever single article. You might want to check out Progressive Adventism. Tonicthebrown (talk) 13:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tonic. Onward neutrality and verifying content! Colin MacLaurin (talk) 11:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I have also been negotiating with Willfults, but on other articles. Please let me know if the Adventism articles need any additional help! JJB 18:31, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a lot of reverting work needed. I have been away from Wikipedia for several months, for the most part. Any help would be appreciated. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 08:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Missing links on Ellen G. White page?
I did what I hope was an appropriate NPOV fixup on the Ellen White page. I had a question for you that I'm pinging you with. I was impressed with your even-handedness in general on the talk page. Serpyllum (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Adventist studies
At Talk:Adventist studies I have proposed enlarging the existing merge to the goal of merging and deleting the whole article. Let me know your thoughts there, thanks. JJB 18:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know, I will reply when I can. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 07:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Ranking of high school articles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Seventh-day_Adventist_Church/Assessment#Primary_and_high_schools

I replied to your comment there, my apologies. I get busy and usually don't check pages that I posted on for replies which is my bad. If you comment please let me know on my talk page. WikiManOne (talk) 23:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I replied there. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 07:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Paxton
Colin,

I was reading the entry on Geoffrey Paxton, which is where I encountered your name. I'm wondering if you know anything about his current whereabouts or what he is doing. I heard him speak in the 70s and read his writings. He was entertaining, witty, and brilliant. I hope he is well 76.126.24.32 (talk) 17:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Carrol Mills


 * Hi Carrol, it seems Geoffrey Paxton has had an interesting career! I met one of his associates Robert Brinsmead in January 2008 for a lengthy discussion. Brinsmead and with whom Paxton travelled around speaking about Protestant beliefs, and Paxton wrote articles for Brinsmead's Present Truth magazine. Anyway Brinsmead told me Paxton is reclusive these days. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 23:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Last Generation Theology
Hi Colin. I have been systematically (sort of) going through the Merge backlog and have just stumbled across Last Generation Theology. It has been tagged for merging into Historic Adventism since December 2007. I see you and user talk:Tonicthebrown started discussing it back then, but came to no conclusion. I know nothing of the subject and since you both still appear to be active, I was hoping that you might be able to either remove the tag, merge the articles or advise me on how best to merge. I will leave the same message with Tonicthebrown. Since you proposed the merger I assume you agree with it, although the article has undergone significant changes since then. Regards AIR corn (talk) 11:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Aircorn, thanks for the friendly prod to deal with the proposed changes to this article! I'll reply more at the merge discussion. Cheers, Colin MacLaurin (talk) 02:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I tend to hack and slash a bit with my merges, although most end up better off, so it would be great if you can deal with it. Now I just need to learn about IBM operating systems. AIR corn (talk) 05:29, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Colin
Hi Colin, hope all is well. I wonder if I could ask your assistance, if you are not too busy. I've been tackling a very difficult individual on the SDA articles over the last month. This individual has been rather disruptive in pushing a strongly historic POV. He generally plows ahead and deletes a lot of quality material, without good reason. A lot of material that I recall being added by you has now been removed by him. In some cases his revisions are appropriate (eg. he attacks anything that hasn't been clearly sourced) but most of the time he is just motivated by his POV, and often contravenes wikipedia policies. I have tried to salvage as much as possible, but it has been difficult. I wonder if you could spare a moment to come back over and have your say? Tonicthebrown (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank-you so much for your top-notch editing work, Tonic. I will endeavour to assist shortly. Merry Christmas, Colin MacLaurin (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Graham Maxwell bio
Hi Colin,

I am really new to working with Wikipedia entries. My work with the "Graham Maxwell" entry is my first attempt at this. This is a further development of my interest in the life and times of Dr. A. Graham Maxwell. I am somewhat disappointed that the official papers of the Adventist Church have not yet, December 31, 2010, recognized this man for his contribution to the church. One of my pasttimes is to carefully document historical information. Any tips you can provide will be appreciated.

Don —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.140.187 (talk) 18:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Don, the article looks great, and you've sourced the content well. Maxwell was certainly an interesting figure; I'm in the process of watching a couple of video recordings about him, which are inspiring. Cheers, Colin MacLaurin (talk) 23:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Graham Maxwell article
Hi Colin,

Thanks for your comment on my last talk page note. I am slowly adding structure and content to the Graham Maxwell entry. One area of interest is how the Adventist Church officials opposed Maxwell's teachings. They did not mention him in particular but rather addressed what they call "The Moral Influence Theory". I have decided to do a history of official Adventist thinking on the MIT, assuming that this is the best record available for official opposition to what Maxwell taught. Any thoughts?

Your experience and ideas are appreciated.

Don — Preceding unsigned comment added by DonaldRichardSands (talk • contribs) 03:12, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Don, that sounds interesting, and I look forward to reading your efforts. You may already by aware of the Seventh-day Adventist Periodical Index (SDAPI). I have found it invaluable for locating resources. By this search, only one article has the subject "moral influence", although I'm sure many of the 250 articles with subject "atonement" will mention it. Of course there's books and other resources too. All the best, Colin MacLaurin (talk) 22:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Graham Maxwell protection of effort
Hi Colin,

A friend of mine, knowing the amount of time I have put in on the "Graham Maxwell" entry has wondered how wikipedia protects an article from unfair changes, editing. Do you know their protocol? I noticed a historical article about Pierre Elliot Trudeau, a former prime minister of Canada, and how the "edit" tags have been removed as though the article is completed and no more editing is allowed. I certainly don't want to go that far, but how does wikipedia protect my efforts on this Graham Maxwell article?

Thanks for your ideas,

Don

— Preceding unsigned comment added by DonaldRichardSands (talk • contribs) 03:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It's an important question, but the answer is that Wikipedia is very free, near anarchic really. The good thing is that almost anyone can edit almost anything; the bad thing is that destructive editors can have too much sway. The best thing is to simply add it to your watchlist, and refer to your watchlist regularly. There is no such thing as a "finished" article on Wikipedia, although articles may be ranked for their content, the best such being a "featured article" which may be featured on the main page.
 * There is an existing protection policy whereby articles being heavily vandalised or edit-warred over can be temporarily "protected". But more relevant to your question is a recent proposal and trial of a pending changes function, which is worth a read as it is brief. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 12:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Talk page is hard to figure out.
Hi Colin,

I have noted that when you answer my talk entry, it shows up indented in the same area. How is that done?

Regarding Maxwell and the Moral Influence Theory, several of my friends pointed out that my idea of criticism of Dr. Maxwell by way of opposition to the MIT is speculative, at best. Thus, I have removed that section and may start an entry on The History of the Moral Influence Theory among Adventists.

More later,

DonaldRichardSands (talk) 01:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Donald, a single colon ":" indents a paragraph. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 01:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Fannie Bolton


A tag has been placed on Fannie Bolton requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion, or "db", tag; if no such tag exists, then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hang-on tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Gabriele 449 22:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

et al. and others
Since most citations with long lists of authors use the term et al., I don't think that it matters much to change it to and others. It probably makes it a bit more accessible to non-medical readers. I wouldn't make the same changes within the citations themselves, because it would take forever to hit every medical article! Orange Marlin Talk• Contributions 22:04, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, no worries. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 00:50, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Weimar College
Please visit this link as your opinion and expertise would be appreciated. Fountainviewkid 18:09, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Brisbane meetup invitation
Hi there! You are cordially invited to a barbeque and meetup at Southbank this Sunday (26 June). Details and an attendee list are at Meetup/Brisbane. Hope to see you there! Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

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Non-Free rationale for File:Inspiration book.jpg
Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Inspiration book.jpg. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under Non-Free content criteria but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia is acceptable. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include a Non-Free rationale.

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ARTICLE DELETION NOTICE
Hello Colin! An article which you created, Generation of Youth for Christ‎‎, has been nominated for deletion!! Interested in weighing in?? Well, you can do here Articles for deletion/Generation of Youth for Christ‎‎. – Lionel (talk) 06:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Third Party Sources
Hi Colin, I could use your advice. Some editors have asked me to help rescue the Generation of Youth for Christ article from deletion. Two editors, one in particular, seems to have targeted the article. The advice I need is regarding Third Party sources. Both of these editors are claiming that Spectrum and Adventist Today cannot be used because they are affiliated with the SDA Church. They also consider the Adventist Review to be unacceptable. The problem with GYC is that there are very few, if any, non-Adventist related sources about the organization. One of the editors, seemed favorable to merging the GYC article with the History of the Seventh-day Adventist Church article. I tried to do that but the other editor claimed that the article had become unbalanced. Which it had, at least so far. Anyway, the one editor is warring against me, it seems. Any ideas? DonaldRichardSands (talk) 11:26, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Seventh-day Adventism in popular culture for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Seventh-day Adventism in popular culture is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Seventh-day Adventism in popular culture until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:58, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

colostrum photo
Hi, you contributed a photo of a container of colostrum to the wiki page on that. I work for a science magazine interested in illustrating an article on colostrum, and seeking a good image. Do you have that photo in a high-resolution format? Could you and would you provide it? We would be happy to credit you, and pay for usage.

Jonathan Beard NY, NY, USA jbeard@nasw.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.84.167.38 (talk) 17:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Jonathan, you have the wrong person. I have never contributed a photo like that to Wikipedia. Good luck! Colin MacLaurin (talk) 23:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Ichthus: January 2012
 In this issue...

- Ichthus is published by WikiProject Christianity For submissions and subscriptions contact the Newsroom
 * From the Editor
 * What are You doing For Lent?
 * Fun and Exciting Contest Launched
 * Spotlight on WikiProject Catholicism

Initiated WP:AFD for John F. Ashton
I have nominated a page you created for deletion. You are welcome to contribute your views regarding its deletion at Articles for deletion/John F. Ashton Professor marginalia (talk) 21:32, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank-you for the courtesy. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 13:06, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Colin, I'm sorry to say the still-open AFD has gotten quite overbloated and I am at least part of the reason. Did you have any comments on what would be an improvement in this case? JJB 00:42, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm inactive on Wikipedia these days. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 03:00, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Dead links in article 'Hans Karl LaRondelle'
Hi. The article 'Hans Karl LaRondelle' has some dead links that could not be repaired automatically. Can you help fix them?

Dead: http://www.andrews.edu/universitypress/catalog.cgi?key=50
 * You added this in December 2007.

Dead: http://www.andrews.edu/universitypress/catalog.cgi?key=179
 * The bot checked The Wayback Machine and WebCite but couldn't find a suitable replacement.
 * You added this in December 2007.

Dead: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN1983-09/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=32
 * The bot checked The Wayback Machine and WebCite but couldn't find a suitable replacement.
 * You added this in December 2007.

These links are marked with Dead link in the article. Please take a look at that article and fix what you can. Thank you!
 * The bot checked The Wayback Machine and WebCite but couldn't find a suitable replacement.

PS- you can opt-out of these notifications by adding to your user page or user talk page. BlevintronBot (talk) 18:40, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks bot, I have fixed these. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 03:04, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

John Ashton
Hey, fellow editor!

As far as I can tell, YOU are the original initiator of the John F. Ashton article. I've just discovered it myself and it sounds like an interesting if undercovered topic. Someone wants to have it deleted for lack of notability and I was wondering if you could point me to the sources from which you first discoverated the topic of this article so that I can continue my own research and flesh out the article you helped originate.

Thanks for your time, DrPhen (talk) 01:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi DrPhen, thanks for your message. Another user actually messaged me above about the same article. It looks like I didn't have good sources within the article itself. While I became very familiar and experienced with Wikipedia policies, this article might have been created during my early days, or perhaps I simply bent the rules. You could try these references just as a start - see how "authoritative" and "independent", or not, the authors are. But these may well point to better sources beyond themselves. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 06:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Brisbane workshop and meetup invitation
Hi there! You are cordially invited to a series of Paralympic History workshops and a meetup next Saturday (26 May) and Sunday. In attendance will be University of Queensland faculty and Australian Paralympic Committee staff. Details and an attendee list are at Meetup/Brisbane/5. Hope to see you there! John Vandenberg 06:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

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Brisbane meetup invitation
Hi there! You are cordially invited to a meetup this Friday evening (3 August). Details and an attendee list are at Meetup/Brisbane/6. Hope to see you there! John Vandenberg 01:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

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Brisbane meetup with Sue Gardner invitation
Hi there! You are cordially invited to a meetup on 11 Febrary 2013 with Sue Gardner.

Details at Meetup/Brisbane/7. Hope to see you there! John Vandenberg 10:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

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Christianity newsletter: New format, new focus
Hello, I notice that you aren't currently subscribed to Ichthus, the WikiProject Christianity newsletter. Witha new format, we would be delighted to offer you a trial three-month, money-back guarantee, subscription to our newsletter. If you are interested then please add your name tothis list, and you will receive your first issue shortly. From June 2013 we are starting a new "in focus" section that tells our readers about an interesting and important groups of articles. The first set is about Jesus, of course. We have also started a new book review section and our own "did you know" section. In the near future I hope to start a section where a new user briefly discusses their interests.-- Gilderien Chat&#124;List of good deeds 21:06, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia en Español
Hola Colin, gracias por el mensaje en la página de discusión, en es:wiki no están demasiado difundidos los artículos que incluyan a la Iglesia Adventista del Séptimo Día, te agradeceré cuando dispongas de tiempo traducir los artítulos de en:wiki, saludos cordiales!!.--190.183.221.242 (talk) 11:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Need input on Article
Colin, I need your help on this article for Amazing Discoveries....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Discoveries as it needs work to keep it from being deleted from Wikipedia. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Simbagraphix (talk)
 * Also if could get your input on this related article for Walter Veith....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Veith
 * ....Thanks.Simbagraphix (talk)

MfD nomination of User:John J. Bulten/John F. Ashton
User:John J. Bulten/John F. Ashton, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:John J. Bulten/John F. Ashton and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of User:John J. Bulten/John F. Ashton during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. jps (talk) 13:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The undeserved and unrelenting love of God
Hi Colin, I am an elder of a small SDA church, very definitely not of SDA background, and took the long way home via the seventies, drugs, sex and rock and roll. I am a lower case sda, upper case CHRISTIAN male who believes in the integrity and unchanging character of God. For me this means that the hallowing of the seventh day of creation is still valid. Forget Sinai's reiteration, the point is Genesis. I interpret John 1 literally, and reject ex nihilo as mere 'magical thinking'. I align that with a syncretism of the concepts that God is light, and Max Planck's idea that all matter is compressed light. I subsequently found out that this apparently makes me a panentheist, but only after many labelled me as a pantheist. Most of the labellers have no idea that the word panentheist exists. In my view, a pantheist worships God using the creation as an icon or perhaps idol, and I know many members of the church who are dangerously close to this while still emphatically deriding pantheism. A panenthiest is free to worship God in Spirit and in truth if they choose to, and I do so choose. The bonus of this position is that one is exposed to the idea that sin is a cancer in the 'body' of God which He has tolerated for 6 millenia out of absolute devotion for us. That He has tolerated that which He absolutely hates for the sake of those He absolutely loves. It makes Calvary that much more accessible for me. I have dabbled with computer programming and am probably on (the edge of) the spectrum. So I use logic ruthlessly; If God cannot obey His own laws then Lucifer's accusation may have merit! The doctrine of ex nihilo violates my understanding of the nature of the created universe and the manner of it's creation. But the idea of out of (apparent) chaos supports my view, because light only exists in opposing photon twins. At a very surface interpretation (not God's) this is chaotic. The reduction of 'chaos' occurs with the deliberate and wilful arrangement of light into matter. And that is God's creation. However an omnipresent God whose arrangement of Himself to create, has a major problem that God foresaw. How could His creation relate to Him except impersonally and in a degraded way? And being God He fashioned the avatar of Himself that we might relate to, Jesus/Micha El (the One who is like God) who then operated the entire process of creation. If any of this offends I apologise as that is not my intent, and urge you to reread John 1 closely. I really struggle with 'magical thinking' which pervades Christendom. And more so with its logical 'child' 'reactionism'. While everyone today laughs at the idea of a flat earth, Galileo was forced to recant in order to avoid the fire. This viewpoint is very much alive today and holds us back terribly from realising the full import which these latter days have made accessible. For a group which began with a mistaken interpretation of a real and valid time prophecy, we have become bound in orthodoxy, and shackled in our ability to express or examine views outside that orthodoxy. We are denying our origins effectively, for the sake of our comfort and intellectual laziness. The strongest discussions I recall in nearly 3 decades of SDA life were about new pews and the choice of new carpet for the sanctuary! And I believe that this is the greatest threat to 'us' that has ever existed. ( of course you are welcome to think I have read 'The Screwtape Letters' one too many times I suppose. ) As a teenager I I read the Bible from beginning to end 3 times, but sadly without any faith. The Word was therefore dead, and I concluded, on the basis of several astronomical objections, that it was a fairy story. Praise God He was not finished with me! My objections were such apparent nonsensical ideas as burning ice (plagues of Egypt), the sun standing still at Beth Horon, and the star standing still over Bethlehem. I am sick today but next week, God willing, I will preach my controversial Christmas sermon, and I will get my local congregation to sing 'Eastward leading..' in recognition of what the SDA church taught me so long ago. Of course when they taught me that the Magi moved to Pergamum and then to Rome they expected me to grasp the idea that false worship went along for that ride. Initially and superficially I did, but as I re-examined the concept I realised that this must mean that the Magi who attended Jesus birth also must have also given up the power of the world in Rome, travelled for 18 odd months in honour of an understanding of Daniel and more (which we no longer have) to surrender to Christ. I think it is fair to conclude that they never went back to Rome, and that they were a 'remnant' (but numbering more than 3 :-)) The major theme of this sermon is a historical examination of how truth has been transmitted from Shemite Ur, through Abram to Daniel, to Bethlehem. But a sub note will be that the Priests at Jerusalem could tell Herod where, but were too busy to actually go 20 odd ks and meet Him. But that priests of the dark side gave up the world and travelled through an arduous winter to acknowledge Him. The idea that it is the disparity between what you say and what you do that convicts or condemns you. And yes I do realise that we all preach the sermon we need to hear. :-) I believe that when the dress code becomes more important than the One you are getting dressed up for, the relationship is in serious trouble. That when the the prose form of the speaker becomes more important than the message, you are not in a conversation any more. That for the churched christian the gravest danger is not heterodoxy, but an empty narcissism devoid of Him. That an authentic relationship with God is superior to a 'nice' relationship with the church. I will preach this sermon in jeans and a shirt without a tie. Because that is who I am ... and any more or less would no longer be authentic. If I were an authentic 'suit' then to affect jeans would be similarly wrong. My dress code is only correct for me. And each one of us must choose for themselves; we are responsible for our own splintered eyesight. This is way too long. I am interested in a conversation beyond orthodoxy. I have spewed out all this so you know what you are getting into upfront ...or not. Leigh308 (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Leigh, I read your piece of prose here. I haven't edited Wikipedia (substantially) for many years now. Was your comment in response to anything? Colin MacLaurin (talk) 06:41, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

=Good to see you're still editing Wikipedia!= --One Salient Oversight (talk) 09:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually I'm not OSO. Good meetup, is it still the smallest Wiki meet? Colin MacLaurin (talk) 06:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello
Hi Colin, My name is Cristian, I'm from Chile. I was reading the talk page in the SDA Church article un the spanish wikipedia when I saw your message. It's probably a bit late to answer, but I do it anyway. If you wrote the article about the adventist editors on wikipedia let me know where can I read it. Best regards, -- Cristian  ]  Yes?  03:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Brisbane Meetup
Hi there! I'm dropping you this notice as you've indicated at Meetup/Brisbane that you are interested in attending a Wiki meetup in Brisbane. Assuming significant interest, I'm organising an event for August 22 at the SLQ Café in South Brisbane, and we'd love for you to come along. A list of people interested in coming, and a discussion space has been created at Meetup/Brisbane/8. Hope to see you there! Lankiveil (speak to me) 12:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC).

Brisbane Meetup
Hi there! I'm dropping you this notice as you've indicated on your userpage that you're a Wikipedian in the Brisbane area. Assuming significant interest, I'm organising an event for August 22 at the SLQ Café in South Brisbane, and we'd love for you to come along. A list of people interested in coming, and a discussion space has been created at Meetup/Brisbane/8. Hope to see you there! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

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ArbCom elections are now open!
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Brisbane Meetup in January 2016
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Nomination of Association of Seventh-day Adventist Librarians for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Association of Seventh-day Adventist Librarians is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Association of Seventh-day Adventist Librarians& until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Boleyn (talk) 18:29, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Pacific Union Recorder


The article Pacific Union Recorder has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Non-notable publication, no significant coverage, fails GNG

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Proposed deletion of Pacific Union Recorder


The article Pacific Union Recorder has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern:
 * Non-notable newsletter. Unable to find significant coverage in third-party sources.

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Nomination of Pacific Union Recorder for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pacific Union Recorder is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Brisbane meetup
Come along! Kerry (talk) 04:01, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Adventist Currents


The article Adventist Currents has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern:
 * Non-notable. Library catalog entry, blog, and minor mention in PR magazine do not meet GNG.

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Nomination of Adventist Today for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Adventist Today is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Nomination of Progressive Adventism for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Progressive Adventism is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Brisbane meetup - Sunday 10 December 2017 at The Edge, State Library of Queensland
If you are in or near Brisbane, please join us on Sunday 10 December 2017 any time from noon to 4pm at The Edge at the State Library of Queensland. For more details and to sign up, please go to the meetup page. See you there! Kerry (talk) 21:56, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Brisbane meetup: Saturday 13 January 2018 at The Edge, State Library of Queensland
If you are in or near Brisbane, please join us on Saturday 13 January 2018 any time from noon to 4pm at The Edge at the State Library of Queensland. For more details and to sign up, please go to the meetup page. See you there!

Orphaned non-free image File:Record magazine cover, 17 April 2010.png
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God helps those who help themselves
A simple note of thanks for creating the page. I love that it's cited in The Atlantic. &mdash; tbc (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing Tim! This was a fun and memorable page, and I see it has improved significantly. I think it was the Jay Leno segment that inspired me to write it, and earlier a pastor I know had quoted it as his favourite Bible passage (even knowing that it wasn't...) Colin MacLaurin (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Marian Davis


Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Marian Davis requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the help or reference desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

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gospals
what are they? Maguy2020 (talk) 00:28, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

"Nature of humankind" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Nature of humankind. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 12 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Adventist secondary schools in India


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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:East-Central Africa Division of Seventh-day Adventists


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Orphaned non-free image File:Record magazine cover, 17 April 2010.png
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Nomination of Woodrow Whidden for deletion
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Your access to AWB may be temporarily removed
Hello Colin MacLaurin! This message is to inform you that due to editing inactivity, your access to AutoWikiBrowser may be temporarily removed. If you do not resume editing within the next week, your username will be removed from the CheckPage. This is purely for routine maintenance and is not indicative of wrongdoing on your part. You may regain access at any time by simply requesting it at WP:PERM/AWB. Thank you! &mdash; MusikBot II  talk  17:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)