User talk:Colipon/archive2

From September 2006 to March 2007.

Falun Gong Sarcasm

 * OK as long as you were being sarcastic I withdraw my comments. Jsw663 06:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * PS Is mediation even possible for an entry about Falun Gong? Given the controversy, I don't think true mediation is possible, regardless of whether you ask the ArbCom, the MedCab or any other party.  Think about it - how many people can have truly neutral views on both the CCP and FLG, as well as have a relatively centrist political inclination (ie not pro- or anti- human rights / 'freedom of religion') and not be involved in the matter in some way (eg through ethnicity) yet be sufficiently knowledgeable?  Jsw663 06:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to your questions
1)I've studied Falun Gong in North America and in Taiwan (I currently live in Taiwan), but not in Mainland China. 2)As much as I know about the inner workings of the CCP, which is a fair amount, I certainly know a lot more about the inner workings of Falun Gong practitioners. 3)I would say that I know Mao's background better than Mr.Li's. There's a whole lot more info available on Mao than on Mr. Li.

4)I've taken undergraduate courses on Chinese history, art, religion, and poli sci. I've also done a fair amount of research on my own. I've written papers on the Taiping Rebellion, so I'm quite familiar with it (and I think Falun Gong is rather different). I'm also quite familiar with the Korean Tonghak rebellion, which is often compared with the Taiping Rebellion.

Hope that answers your questions --Mcconn 15:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I feel sorry for you, Communist dog.
You can never ever assimilate in Western culture, all the years of brainwashing in hte Mainland ensured that is so. When will you ever get out of the box? Think outside the box- you heard of that???????? Chinese people are so dumb.........


 * Be responsible of what you say! You should not confuse a single person with the whole ethnic group. Although Colipon is dumb, that does NOT mean that all Chinese people are dumb. You could be accused of racism.


 * Next time, at least sign your comments so I can hear why I'm such a dumb person. Colipon+(T) 00:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbcom
Informal mediator Wiki  e Zach|  talk  is preparing to move the Falun Gong mediation case to the Arbcom. I have been asked to alert concerned (to the best of my knowledge) editors about this matter. Thank you. --Fire Star 火星 23:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism removed
User:MAOZEcriminAL vandalised your user page, so I reverted it as you were away at the time. I left his jibe on your talk page though, as I thought you might get a kick out of it or something. John Smith&#39;s 11:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protection
If you would like, your user talk page can be protected from editing by IPs. —Centrx→talk &bull; 18:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:1996 Leaders of the Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation Leaders’ Forum
Template:1996 Leaders of the Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation Leaders’ Forum has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 10:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong mediation
Hello, I'm sorry it's been awhile, but I recently agreed to mediate that case. I don't know if it's a stale issue, so it would be good if a few of you let me know whether or not mediation is still needed. Since there are so many of you, I'm going to assume that all of you agree to me mediating until and unless I am told otherwise. I'm also going to assume public mediation is fine, unless someone asks for private mediation, or I come to think private mediation might be better. I would, however, appreciate it if you just said something there to let me know if you are still around. Also, assuming you are still interested in mediation, please watchlist the page if you haven't already. Thanks! Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 02:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

about Xiao Zhuang Wen
Hi, Colipon, why did you move without discussing on the talk page? I think that Xiaozhuangwen Grand Empress Dowager should be moved and Xiao Zhuang Wen should be redirected because Xiaozhuangwen Grand Empress Dowager has a much longer edit history (from 12:21, 22 November 2003) than Xiao Zhuang Wen (from 22:49, 28 September 2006). --Neo-Jay 10:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. A solution is to move Empress Dowager Xiaozhuang back to Xiao Zhuang Wen and then requet to move Xiaozhuangwen Grand Empress Dowager to Empress Dowager Xiaozhuang at Requested moves. See Talk:Empress Dowager Xiaozhuang. --Neo-Jay 20:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

more on Falun Gong
On Jsw's talk page you mentioned that you think Falun Gong has characteristics of a cult, and I wonder if we could discuss this further. I will start by saying some things, then you can respond, and we may progress towards understanding. I think that this would be beneficial. I will tell you some things; you may know them already. Falun Gong practitioners meditate and read the Dafa books. Now they are also doing a lot of things to tell people about the persecution against Falun Gong in China. None of the teachings in Falun Gong tell practitioners to do bad things. The teachings have as their focus telling people how to do good things, and think in good ways. In conflicts, Falun Gong practitioners are supposed to look inside themselves for the reasons and then improve themselves. The basis of it is personal improvement and attempting to increase self-knowledge and self-understanding, and the goal is complete self-knowledge and understanding, attaining the Tao, 返本歸真, 圓滿, probably you know those. I won't say too much more here. Maybe you have some misgivings and you think that practitioners worship Li Hongzhi, or that their understanding of Li Hongzhi is one that you do not think is true. I can only put it that way. I don't know what you think or if you want to discuss this with me, so I won't say more on that point yet. One main thing I should say is that despite what you think about the teachings or the beliefs of Falun Gong practitioners, those things are not harmful, they are not telling people to do bad things, and they are not actually bad. Falun Gong practitioners are being tortured, raped, beaten, burned, and simply executed in China right now. The CCP has also been taking the organs from live Falun Gong practitioners for sale, and incinerating the bodies. Did you know that? Have you read the Kilgour-Matas report? Maybe what I am saying is hard to believe, so I would recommend you read that report, which looks at the evidence in a pretty straightfoward way. What is happening to Falun Gong practitioners is completely unjustified, totally unjust, and it is really shocking and horrible. If you do not know where to read this information, or you have not read it before, I can give you some links. It is very well documented by many third parties. You also said that a lot of the commentary has been from a western perpsective. Can you tell me what you mean by that? Most of the things I have read are sort of recounting the tortures that Falun Gong practitioners have undergone at the hands on police, along with photos... Do you think an Asian based human rights organisation would do it better? So I guess I don't really understand that comment. If you respond then we can discuss it further. --Asdfg12345 23:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

note that this is altered from the original. In the first place I got an error message and did not think it had posted, so I read through it and made some minor changes. I have replaced the other version with this one:

I am nearly twenty one. I am Australian by nationality, and my home is in the capital, Canberra. I am in my third year of an arts degree, majoring in philosophy and english. I am from a middle class family. I am not sure what more information you would like, if I am giving you the kind of information you want, and I do not understand why you would ask me for that information. I had some reluctance to say things about myself and was going to respond to your question with another one: "Why?", but I guess it is fine, though I don't really understand. Anyway, I will tell you some more. Over the course of one or two years I read books about philosophy, mysticism, and also supernormal things. From philosophy what most interested me were writers like Plato and Spinoza - I do not like 20th century european philosophy, like postmodernism etc. Also, I found a writer called Colin Wilson who has written several books compiling a large amount of information about paranormal events or things that cannot be explained with our current empirical/materialistic model of understanding ourselves and the universe. Reading one of his books led me to finding out about an Armenian mystic called Gurdjieff, who lived in the early 20th century. His writings influenced my thinking a lot. He had a pupil called Ouspensky who wrote a great deal about higher dimensions and introduced a completely new way of thinking to me. His book Tertium Organum had a very strong influence on my thinking, and soon afterwards I encountered Falun Gong. I do not consider these occurences coincidental. I initially had a strong intention to study political science but my interest in it faded and these other things gave me different ways to think, and particularly to understand the meaning of human suffering, which I initially woke me up to questions about the meaning of life and the universe in the first place. If you have never read these things or taken an interest in them I do not think you will understand me, the way I think, or truly understand Falun Gong. In the last discussion I had with a university friend I found that my understanding of reality is incompatible with political interests and that I am also no longer able to participate in discussions about those topics, as it is absolutely and fundamentally unrelated to what I think at this time. We were talking about Marxism and I think some other modern stuff. I notice that you have studied history, sociology and politics, and those things are so far different from what I have in my head. I think that in the things one comes across in this world people interpret them through their own particular tools of understanding or comprehension - either political theories, sociological theories, philosophical theories, whatever it is... For me, I am looking at things in a particular way as well. I am sure you have seen the film The Matrix, and maybe you have also read Plato's story about the Cave? That is pretty much what I think, this reality we are presented with, three dimensions, our bodies, this environment - our world - the general understanding of life and death, suffering, everything, is a complete delusion, it is totally fake, and not true at all. I had thought this before I practiced Falun Gong. So when it comes to the things that happen here I pretty much do not have a view of them, I understand them all as cause-and-effect relationships playing out, and that human beings are totally lost in delusion and do not realise it. I think it is sort of inevitable, this state, and it has to be this way. I think the purpose of human existence is to rise out of this and return to a state of completion or truth, or full realisation of being. I do not know if I am helping you, or this is what you wanted me to write. I interpret your question to me to be for the purpose of finding out about me so you have some idea of who I am.. though I guess in the end I do not understand how that could be related to responding to me. I have written a fair bit, so I do apologise if this is not what you were after. I have written this to help to orient things. In the end my purpose of communicating to you is to tell you that Falun Gong is not bad. Falun Gong practitioners meditate and read books, wish to harm no one, and understand themselves to be living for the purpose of realising the truth of their existence. This will not harm anyone, society, or anything. It is actually good for the people around them, because they are always trying to be kind and conduct themselves well... There is also the insane and brutal genocide... I could write a great deal more, and I could write for a very long time about many more subjects, to explain myself more. Sorry this is so long. I hope this helps. Look forward to your response.--Asdfg12345 23:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

yeah, go: asd at mm dot st. Maybe you could tell me in more detail what you mean when you say Falun Gong practices in China that you encountered were fraudulent or illegitimate... or generally that you are saying you saw Falun Gong practitioners doing bad or dishonest things? Or you think Li Hongzhi has done bad or dishonest things? I am pretty interested in what you have to say, and I am surprised that you would say that. I obviously cannot respond to your comments at all, since I do not know what you know, was not there, do not know the circumstances, anyway, it's obvious why I could not engage you in a discussion about those things - but I can say that I am interested. Anyway, we can talk more. I have to go and eat now. I just ctrl-xed a paragraph and put it into word, I will send it to you when you send me an email. Saludos.--Asdfg12345 23:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

yeah it's right. I sometimes see people write their emails in words, and I assume it is to prevent spam. Maybe there are people trawling the web through some automated method, collecting email addresses to add to junk email list... just send me an email when you have the inclination explaining those things. you mentioned that you would think it rude to debate with me about my beliefs, well, if you want to it is fine with me. I would not find that offensive and I would try to explain to you what I could. Of course, whatever you want. Anyway, I await your email. I will add you to my messenger later, but I don't really use it. Other thing is, I don't know if it was deliberate or not, or signified anything, but you described it as a "crackdown"... I assume you are aware of the circumstances under which Falun Gong practitioners are treated in Mainland China, if you weren't I said some things to you above, and I can give you those links. Another thing is that I hope what I just said does not sound sharp. I have found that I say things with a sharp tone sometimes, so I am mentioning it here to say that I hope what I want to be communicated can be communicated minus any negative feelings... okay, hear from you soon, happy news years!

(PS: don't you think it would be really incongruent for me to lie about my age? especially 21 from Canberra!?)--Asdfg12345 00:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Copilon, just wondering whether you intend to contribute to the discussion on Falun Gong-related talk pages? Your input may be valuable.  Jsw663 10:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Read my posts for yourself and determine whether I'm neutral :-) Jsw663 19:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Copilon, it may interest you that Asdfg has been totally incapable of answering my criticism of one of his pro-FG sources that he's been promoting for a long time. This may appear to put me in the anti-FG camp, but in reality Asdfg's doing that for me by being unable to respond to it.  I want to pursue neutrality and Wikipedian policies, nonetheless.  Jsw663 08:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I sent an email to hongshi_fang@hotmail.com, maybe it was automatically put in the trashcan, that is not your email address, or you are busy. Anyway, it was longish so I won't copy it all here, but I will copy the last part. Do not respond on my userpage because I will not be using wikipedia again until feb. Respond to the hotmail address, or asd@mm.st. Here is the section:

"I asked two things in my last post on your userpage, check out the post, I think they were (1) can you tell me more about what you mean when you mention the evidence you have collected or seen which suggests Li Hongzhi or Falun Dafa practitioners did bad or dishonest things in China in the early days? (2) Can you tell me how you understand the... well you called it a crackdown and I have been calling it a genocide, but how you understand the current circumstances between Falun Gong and the CCP? I also wonder whether you were already familiar with the organ harvesting report I mentioned on your user talk page, whether you have read it, and what you think of it - as well as the UN reports, Amnesty reports - whether you have seen them or looked through them."

As for Jsw, I don't know what to say. I hope he can find his conscience.--Asdfg12345 15:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I look at facts and reality as is, Asdfg, without emotion. If I leapt to conclusions or let emotions cloud my judgement, I wouldn't be neutral or a good mediator now (although I'm not mediating the FG page), would I?  Jsw663 11:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Image:Bo Xilai.jpg
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Response
I thought we agreed before that there couldn't be a totally NPOV FLG entry... but that doesn't mean we should give up. It only takes one to do nothing for a sect (or whatever FLG is) to spread outrageous bias not in keeping with Wiki rules. Jsw663 18:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Fang, Thanks for the message. I wrote critically about the Falun Gong in Singtao Daily, the largest Chinese newspaper in the Bayarea in 1999 and 2000. The Falun Gong sued the Singtao daily in New York area in 2000, and I was told that the Singtao would not publish any article (pro or con) about this group again. Since 2002, I have helped American cult experts like Dr. Margaret Singer to understand the Falun Gong; most Falun Gong literatures were only available in Chinese at the time. In 2003, I participated in a Falun Gong panel in a conference held by the American Family Foundation. In the same year I built my first website, the one you are using right now is the 3rd website developed last year. --Samuel Luo 22:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Falungong health claims
Greetings. I do feel that the health studies the FLG people list in the article are flawed, studies conceived and managed by true believers to promote FLG. I support their removal. There is a similar syndrome at the Reiki article, a practise that also commissions its own studies (in "alternative" journals) to promote their brand of snake oil. --Fire Star 火星 21:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

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Gao Zhisheng's letters and a couple of questions
I wonder if you have read Gao Zhisheng's open letters to the CCP leadership? I link them for you here, Colipon: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/03/china14299.htm,
 * THIRD OPEN LETTER: http://cipfg.org/en/index.php?news=290. There are three in total, just two links there. It may be better and easier to find them in Chinese and read them, if you have such a wish. I do not know if you are already familiar with them. Part of the third is what I copy below, followed by my questions to you, that I am sincerely interested in an answer to, and that I truly, actually want to know from you.

"...The 15 days of investigation again showed me the painful truth. The 6-10 Office is—or at least can be called—a gang that exists within the political power of the nation, yet is higher than the political power. It is a gang that can control and regulate all political resources. Although it is an organization that exists outside of the Constitution and the regulations of the country’s power structure, the 6-10 Office is using many powers that are only supposed to be used by agencies of the national government, and even many powers that are beyond those of agencies of the national government. It uses powers that don’t belong and have never belonged to the nation since the beginning of mankind’s political civilization on this earth.

We can see that the power symbolized by the number 6-10 continues to “interface” with the public through ways such as killing a person’s physical body and spirit, shackles, chains, electric shock tortures, and “tiger benches.” “The nature of this power has become that of a criminal gang. It continues to torture our mothers, sisters, children, and our entire nation. Mr. Hu and Mr. Wen, as members of our nation in special positions at this time, and especially as individuals who are perceived by the majority of the public as being conscientious, you should face everything together with all of us.

At this moment, with a trembling heart and a trembling pen, I am writing down the tragic experiences of those who have been persecuted in the last six years. Among the true accounts of unbelievable brutality, among the records of the government’s inhuman torture of its own people, the immoral acts that shocked my soul the most were the lewd yet routine practice of attacking women’s genitals by 6-10 Office staff and the police. Almost every woman’s genitals and breasts or every man’s genitals have been sexually assaulted during the persecution in a most vulgar fashion. Almost all who have been persecuted, be they male or female, were first stripped naked before any torture. No language or words could describe or re-create our government’s vulgarity and immorality in this respect. Who with a warm body could afford to stay silent when faced with such truths?"


 * I am interested in whether you think that the accounts of suffering and torture at the hands of police are made up or not. We can discuss further. There are a bunch of videos on the internet which show people with smashed bodies and so on. And this is people showing Gao Zhisheng their smashed up genetalia. I think that could be found as well. Confronted with those images, I wonder whether you concede that the CCP is responsible for those injuries, or whether the people did it to themselves and are lying. Well, I will assume you do not claim that these things are made-up. So what I mean is, lets get to it, is that you realise that the CCP is doing these brutal and cruel things to people, but you do not denounce them for it. Why don't you denounce these cruel and horrible deeds? It is just such a basic thing, you know? It is really bad to do that to people for their beliefs, even if you think their beliefs are rubbish. Basically, my burning desire is to truly understand and know how you, one who truly has deep, personal moral convictions and feelings, can be so unconcerned about something like this? It is to know how you can balance your own beliefs and thoughts, and still support the CCP? Any person or collective doing this kind of thing systematically and deliberately to large numbers of people, that is, administering the cruelest of possible tortures and sufferings on innocent people, that is just simply evil. It is so horrible to do that to people. So how do you balance that with your own morality? I understand you, and you understand yourself to be, a person who has a conscience about life, and has a sense of morality. So how does this fit into it? How can you truly be a good person if you are supporting the CCP, who is truly doing these most terrible, tragic and cruel things to people? Please give a lot of thought to the answer, please try to understand what I am asking, exactly what I am asking, and please examine yourself and think about this. You can reply here, my talk page, or in email. I want to know this very much. --Asdfg12345 22:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Certain FG'ers real opinions
Apparently this was aired here -. I'll reproduce the text for you in full + unedited here, written by Happy_in_General:

"I would note the quality of this page as unstable and BIASED therefore i would give it a 2 from a total of 5. As I see it, this page is written by only two groups, Chinese Communist Party members who have a direct interest (power, money, greed) to hide/obfuscate the details and the motives behind the Persecution of Falun Gong and Falun Gong practitioners who, since are not paid, I guess, would know the actual facts about Falun Gong since they are actually doing it daily. --HappyInGeneral 13:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)"

Shame really. But if their opinions on Wikipedia can only be justified by blatantly false allegations (which definitely constitutes as libel) then we need to take action to remedy this. This is why I've encouraged you to support the three-strike rule I proposed. Jsw663 22:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Colipon, see my talk page for my response to your post. Mcconn 22:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Colipon, thanks for your reply. Debates / negotiations require infinite patience.  Thus I do understand your frustrations.  However, your sarcasm may come across as serious comments to some users and if they agreed to it, then progress towards a final FG Wiki entry (if that's possible) will only be hindered.  Although it may sound tired, I have to re-stress that you be more tolerant of a lack of progress so far towards that direction, but not place anymore barriers towards progress than necessary.  Sarcasm only works for those who think like you, or can understand where you're coming from, after all.  Jsw663 18:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Colipon, NPOV-enforcers are also required to be civil, no matter how others treat you. Your input regarding sources though is valuable, so keep that up.  Please watch your language and behavior especially on pro-FG user pages, thanks.  Jsw663 17:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

SF Supes Support Homophobic Cult article in the BAR
Yes, Colipon, I'm the same Thomas Brown the reporter refers to in this article. What did you think of it? I thought it was great reporting. The BAR article was circulated around the world via the internet. It was also read by all the local politicians, so now people in this little city know about Li's homopbobic teachings and his cultish control over the group. One of the supervisors said that some of the FG practitioners who were there to testify at the hearing (many of whom were bussed in from outside the city) were actually laughing when they did the Falun Gong exercises in the chambers. So much for FG being a serious meditation group. It's all about appearances and protecting the reputation of Li Hongzhi. I feel so sorry for the practitioners, because they are so obviously used by Li for his own agenda. Some day the truth will come out. --Tomananda 00:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

quick response to study
Why do you want a reply on the study, Colipon? How do you want me to reply, I could write something quickly in an ad-hoc way from memory, or I could go through it in more detail and cite it, then cite the teachings and discuss it that way. Let me know what kind of depth you expect, and why you want it. Actually, just quickly, I felt it was basically that guy writing his opinion about Dafa and Teacher, with a whole bunch of his own assumptions in the mix (the thing about "sickness", i think he even said something about practitioners just reading the books until they are dumb and brainwashed? sorry if that is not right)... I did not feel it was a very nuanced analysis at all. Anyway, the worst thing I guess which was the whole basis of it, that Zhuan Falun brought out the salvation thing and that is how Li Hongzhi made a motza differentiating himself from other qigong practices, which is simply not true, because Zhuan Falun is based on all the lectures he gave, and the lectures have the exact same content! Do you know what I am saying? Zhuan Falun is just a compilation of all the lectures, there was no real new content added in, and Li Hongzhi stated upfront that he came to offer this cultivation system, to let humankind practice cultivation and be saved. For the lectures, I think there are three available in Chinese that you can listen to. Of course it is the same content, so the stuff about salvation was there from the start. What this guy has written is simply wrong. Li Hongzhi has just taught the Fa and that is all he has done. I can give an in-depth reply if you like and cite some things, but this is just from memory. I'm sorry to be short. Why don't you either read Zhuan Falun all the way through, or listen to the lectures all the way through before coming up with all your opinions on Dafa? Please note that I am not asking you to do it or requesting that you do that. You will do what you like. I am asking you why havn't, and I would also like to ask how it is that you dare to say so many things about Dafa without having done so.

So there were three sort-of questions there and a little bit of a reply. Please let me know about more critical stuff you find. I have read some of Penny's stuff, not strictly critical. If there is some good stuff I will spend a while responding to it. Some critics have said things that require attention. One thing I have found is that they usually do not have even the most basic grasp of the teachings of Falun Dafa and the concepts behind it, which makes what they write about it not really worth the time - this one is a good example. Most of the people reading it are probably in the same boat. Anyway, I think to some extent though you have drawn a line on this, and it will be fruitless to discuss with you more. If not, please tell me. I know that is the case for some of the other editors.

Regards, Matt.--Asdfg12345 21:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Another thing, just quickly let me apologise if you feel that we are ignoring you. I did respond to what you said about the health study, I gave a quick response to the other thing then, and I also responded to your epoch times thing. I deliberately did all those things because you expressed your frustration with our lack of response. I am telling you this so you know that I am paying attention to what you are saying, and you should also note that I am investing my own time specifically in responding to you. The frustration is quite mutual. I have spent many hours writing things into wikipedia that have not gone anywhere either, and I also consider it due to editors' omissions. Anyway, for now there is a section on the introduction disucssion page about the third party views being included in the "situation in china" section. i request your attention.--Asdfg12345 23:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't take it from me. Go listen to the lectures. There are recordings available of the original lectures. Just listen to them. It is the same stuff as in Zhuan Falun. You don't need to take it from me or Dr. Lu, because it's all right there, and that guy is way off. I don't know what you expect from me. I have heard the lectures myself and they are the same as Zhuan Falun. The evidence is right there, you only need to go look for yourself. I am telling the truth. --Asdfg12345 21:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

This is about your comments on the Epoch Times page re the actions practitioner have taken to expose the persecution and the history of the CCP: We are saving people. You are right: it is a sinking ship. We are trying to get as many people off the ship before it sinks. That is our purpose for doing all these things. The destruction of the CCP is inevitable because it has persecuted the Buddha Fa. Now we are trying to save as many people as possible before it is eliminated; all those who can still have a sense of justice woken up inside them, some righteous thoughts, and who are willing to listen to their consciences. --Asdfg12345 11:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)