User talk:Collectorofinsignia

A belated welcome!
Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, Collectorofinsignia. I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia: Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post.
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Again, welcome! S. Rich (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Images
Collector -- your images indicate that these badges are your own work. Are such badges authorized by the Army Regulations or approved by the IOH? If not, then it is inappropriate to add them to articles. Please provide. Thanks. --S. Rich (talk) 20:17, 11 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Srich32977 -- I confirme you I did the scheme myself with the insignias from MY OWN Collection. I'm a collector of US Army insignia and all the insignia shown were/are authorized by the regulation. They are official US Army insignia. So there're absolutely not inappropriate. If you've a doubt, I invit you to consult the 'Institute of Heraldry' website. Thanks. Collectorofinsignia 20:36, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

So as I understand, you created the images of the sew-on badges? If this is so, we can modify the description of the images. Also, I did look at IOH. I found this item: ACU memorandum. I will add it as a WP:RS to the articles. Thank you for your contribution. --S. Rich (talk) 20:48, 11 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You understood well. I lost my time to scan every insignia I've in my collection one by one and created images to show them for other collectors and interested people. I did it for free instead of making an expensive book about insignia. "P-E / Militariabelgium" are my pseudos on 'Militaria collection' forums. I'm happy you found the regulations related to the sew on badges for the ACU uniform - I'm just mad you did the research after removing all my pictures. Next time, please verify the regulations first because they change VERY OFTEN...And so what happens with my pictures now ? Thanks for your response. Collectorofinsignia Collectorofinsignia (talk) 21:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Calm down. I am reverting my changes. "Next time" you ought to do the research and provide it as WP:RS. By every indication the images were (and are} your creation, and they lacked any indication or support showing they are authorized. --S. Rich (talk) 21:08, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Parse the badges
A suggestion for you. The CIB and CMB have their own articles, but your images also include the EIB and EFMB. Could you create separate images for these two badges? If you would, you should then remove the EIB and EFMB from the images. The US military makes an important distinction between those soldiers who receive Expert badges as opposed to Combat badges. Again, thank you for your creations.--S. Rich (talk) 21:24, 11 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I can for sure create images for the two non-combat skill badges, just let me some time and I'll do that. Happily, I've saved the Powerpoint file and so it won't take me soo many time to make the changes. I won't have the time to do it today, but I'll do that in the following days. Thanks for your comprehension Collectorofinsignia (talk) 22:12, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

U.S. Army Combat Badges
Collectorofinsignia,

Thank you for your contributions to the U.S. Army combat and skill badge pages; I like your graphics. I want to let you know that I removed your images from the CIB, CAB, and CMB pages because under AR600-8-22 only three subsequent awards (two stars) of these combat badges are authorized. I know the IOH website illustrates fourth award examples of the CIB, CAB, and CMB; but the Army has not authorized the awarding of a fourth award for these badges, only their design.

On another topic, I have a special request. The graphic you added to the Parachutist Badges page is a wonderful example of the combat jump stars for the basic, senior, and master Army Parachutist Badges. This graphic is more appropriate for the Combat Parachutist section than the one it is in now. From a purely artistic perspective, your graphic would look best in the Combat Parachutist section if the badges were laid out horizontally vs. vertically. If you don't mind, it would be great to have this graphic updated and placed in the Combat Parachutist section.

Again, thanks for your contributions; I like what you have done with the creation of these graphics.

Regards, --McChizzle (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * FYI, as you know, the parachutist gets a gold star on their Airborne wings when they make a combat jump; this is sometimes called a "mustard splat". (I've only seen one on a serving soldier, as I recall for a combat jump into Panama.) I do not know of any reliable source that explains this nickname. --S. Rich (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * S. Rich, as a former paratrooper and one who served with "airborne" who have earned the Combat Parachutist service star/device, we only called it a “mustard stain;” we never called it a mustard splat. The word "splat" has negative connotation within the airborne for it is commonly used to describe a paratrooper whose parachute did not open and died on impact with the ground.  Thus, I don't believe the phrase "mustard splat" is used by the airborne; however it could be used by others. --McChizzle (talk) 16:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

McChizzle, I've a question for you. Based on the AR 600-8-22 you mentionned above, how is the design of the Combat Medical Badge 3rd Award ? The response is on page 101 of the AR600-8-22, point "E.". Regards, Collectorofinsignia (talk) 15:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Collectorofinsignia, The AR does not authorize the design; it only talks about what badges and awards are authorized to be awarded to soldiers. My information on the approval of the design comes from some friends that work for a part of DoD that's involved with such things (i.e. word of mouth).  In other words, I have no documentation to show you that the design was approved by the U.S. Army, --other than the fact that they appear on the IOH website-- only that the three stared CIB, CAB, and CMB is not authorized to be awarded to soldiers per AR600-8-22.  This is why most experienced Army badge makers do not sell a CIB, CAB, and CMB with three stars.  These are but two reasons why we should consider not posting examples of the fourth award of the CIB, CAB, and CMB on Wikipedia. --McChizzle (talk) 16:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your response McChizzle, but if I were you I won't follow the rule at the letter, because there're a few mistakes. I'll explain you why I asked the question about the CMB 3rd Award, and then I'll let you conclude. I'll explain you the problem of the Combat Medical Badge 3rd Award. If you read the AR600-8-22, the badges is describe like this : "Second and subsequent awards of the CMB are indicated by superimposing 1 and 2 stars respectively, centered at the top of the badge between the points of the oak wreath.". In other words, the two stars of this insignia are an the TOP of the insignia (like the CIB 3rd Award and CAB 3rd Award). Now, I invit you to consult the page 290 of the AR 670-1 where you'll find the design of the CMB 3rd Award that's authorized. Curiously, there's one star on the top on the badge...but the second star is not at the TOP, but at the BOTTOM of the insignia. In other words, you've two official regulations that contains two conflicting informations. It's what we call in law a regulation incertainty.

This time, I'll give you a second example. Do you know the Spc. Blake Wise ? He's a combat medic with 2nd Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment who received the Combat Medical Badge 3rd Award in 2007, during the Operation Iraqi Freedom. Googlize his name, and you'll see by yourself. What's realy curious, is that he didn't met the eligibility requirements on one particular point :

"To date, a separate award of the CMB has been authorized for qualified Soldiers in the following four conflicts: Laos; Dominican Republic; Korea on the DMZ; El Salvador; Grenada; Joint Security Area, Panmunjom, Korea; Panama; Southwest Asia Conflict; and Somalia, regardless of whether a Soldier has served one or multiple tours in any or all of these areas. The Republic of Vietnam Conflict Era officially terminated on 10 March 1995.
 * (1) World War II.
 * (2) Korean War.
 * (3) Republic of Vietnam Conflict. Service in the Republic of Vietnam conflict combined with qualifying service in
 * (4) War on Terrorism(Afghanistan, Operation ENDURING FREEDOM) and (Iraq, Operation IRAQI FREEDOM)."

In other words, if we follow the regulation 600-8-22, this soldier participated to the following conflict : Korean war, Vietnam War and the current War on Terrorism. If we consider he joints the Korean battle field (1950-1953) at the minimum age of 18, then he is approximately 80 years old. Curious to see that this soldier is approximately 25-30 years on the picture taken when he received the insignia from the hands of Col. Bryan Owens, the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division commander, at Forward Operating Base Brassfield-Mora in Iraq on January 28, 2007. Do you have an explanation thatfor ? I don't.

Now, I'll give you an example to show you there're also a few missing informations in those regulations. Did you ever heard the Psychological Operations Branch of Service for officer in cloth material (so for the Battle Dress Uniform and the Desert Combat Uniform) ? You can read and read again the regulation, there's no trace of this insignia. But I insure you this one exist. I don't know if you're a collector of military equipment and insignia, but I'm. First I've this insignia in my collection in both woodland and desert, secondly I've a BDU jacket in my collection from a Captain who has this insignia sewn on the collar, and thirdly I know an american collector who also have a jacket in his own collection with the same insignia on collar (from another officer !). Two jackets in two differents collection with the same insignia. This is just to say this insignia exist and was worn. Now, I invit you to give me the regulation that authorize the wear of this PsyOps cloth insignia on the battle dress and desert combat uniforms. Good luck ! You'll find nothing nor in AR670-1, nor in AR600-8-22. Does it means it doesn't exist ? Curious, but the only official information we have about this insignia is again on the Official website of the Institute of Heraldry, again... "A collar insignia for officers was approved by the G-1 on 18 April 2004. The design is that of the enlisted collar insignia without the disc. The knight chess piece is a traditional symbol of special operations and signifies the ability to influence all types of warfare. The lightning bolts represent the psychological operations ability to strike anywhere with speed and the two swords represent the combat capabilities. The item changed to branch insignia with the approval of Psychological Operations as a branch in October 2006."

Now let's me conclude. I demonstrated you in few minutes and with one example that the Army Regulations contains at least one annoyance and that the IoH was more complete. They are three official sources, but they give three different informations. The question is : what's the best source and which one has the priority ? I'm sorry, but I still consider the 4th award insignia are official. I'm conscious they had never been awarded at this time (I seriously doubt some soldiers met the award eligibility requirements !) but it doesn't mean the insignia do not exist.

I'll appreciate you undo your changes because I do not consider they are appropriated. Based on IOH, these insignia exists. Thank you for your response. Collectorofinsignia (talk) 17:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Collectorofinsignia,


 * You are correct that there are discrepancies within many DoD regulations and the Army works hard to find and correct these errors. I will alert my friends of what you have identified so they can review and submit the appropriate paperwork to get those discrepancies addressed.


 * I am not a collector but a former U.S. Army special operations soldier and have earned many of the badges the Army has authorized, plus some they have not (which I never could wear). Today, I consider myself a student of these badges and attempted to keep myself up to date on changes as well as the creation of new badges across DoD (I find it interesting).


 * Just like the errors you found in Army Regulations, the IOH website has errors as well. Just a few of these errors are the Distinguished Pistol Shot and Rifleman Badges, the Army Interservice Competition Badges, and the Army Excellence-in-Competition Badges.  --The graphics of the Distinguished Badges have errors and the IOH website makes no mention of the Interservice and EIC Badges [1].--  Although the IOH approves the design of these DoD badges, their team that creates and maintains the website of example badges are not considered an official source of information for the U.S. Army.  Army officers and soldiers are required to follow Army Regulations and Directives for the awarding and wear of badges and awards.  When discrepancies are found, it is up to the commanding officer of a unit to prescribe the manner of wear for their soldiers (unit uniformity is the rule).  Thus, I understand your frustration as we all attempt to resolve these discrepancies.


 * Since the Army requires that officers and soldiers follow written Army Regulations and Directives vs. the IOH website, a fourth award of the CIB and CMB are identified through the awarding of a second CIB or CMB as per AR600-8-22. As for the CAB, there is no Army Regulation or Directive, that I am aware of, which authorizes the awarding of anything beyond a third award.  When I wore the uniform, I was required to enforce these regulations as well as follow them.  While I was in the Army, I was involved in putting a soldier up on charges for wearing badges they had not earned and badges that were not authorized (not a fun experience).  So, I became familiar with these regulations and what the Army considered official.


 * If you continue to feel strongly about showing examples of a three stared CIB, CAB, and CMB; I recommend that you revert my edits and make textual notations about the discrepancy with the fourth award so readers have the most accurate information we can provide them.


 * --McChizzle (talk) 20:06, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Close Combat Uniform (CCU) concern
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Your article submission Close Combat Uniform (CCU)


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