User talk:Conceptual-Aesthetics

Your submission at Articles for creation: sandbox (March 24)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Mr. Guye was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to User:Conceptual-Aesthetics/sandbox and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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Mr. Guye (talk) 22:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Help with Draft:Audrey Capel Doray
Hi Conceptual-Aesthetics, I saw your question at the Teahouse and replied in general terms there about some of the problems that led to the rejection. I've moved your draft to Draft:Audrey Capel Doray, as this is the best space for draft articles which are up for submission. Anyhow, I have a proposal for you... I'll re-write and re-reference your draft to bring it in line with Wikipedia's various policies and move it into article space when I'm done. I'm quite convinced that with different referencing, the subject would clearly pass the notability criteria. Your work will still be in the article's history, and credit will go to you as the article's creator. My version will be considerably shorter at the outset, but you can gradually build it up again when it's in article space by using some of the material in your version, once you've found independent sources for it and have carefully copyedited it for neutrality. Does that sound like a plan? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank You Voceditenore. Please go ahead. I am not sure if this is where I should reply to you.Conceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)Conceptual-Aesthetics
 * Yep. this is the right place. I have your page on my watchlist, so I'll see any new messages. I'll get to work on the draft later this afternoon (UK time). Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:05, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Conceptual-Aesthetics. Me again. Your draft is now an article – Audrey Capel Doray. Congratulations! And many thanks for helping to improve our coverage of both women and Canadian artists. Must dash, more tomorrow. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi again! Thank you for your kind note. It was a pleasure to help. It's hard to jump straight into Wikipedia by creating an article. I edited for about 6 months before trying it, and the requirements are even tougher now. (I started editing in 2006). Anyhow, if you need any help with other articles, do let me know. I'm sure there a quite a few Canadian artists still "missing" from Wikipedia. Audrey Capel Doray will give you an idea about the kind of sources required, formatting etc. Wikipedia is very strict now about biographies of living persons. Meticulous, verifiable sources are required. If you leave a message on my talk page, make sure you put it at the bottom of the page. The Teahouse is an exception (for some unknown reason). It's the only place on Wikipedia where new topics go at the top. WP:Talk has more about the ins and outs of talk pages. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 17:10, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Conceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)Conceptual-AestheticsConceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC) Elsewhere I have also asked about my final edit to Audrey Capel Doray. They have now deleted everything about Victor Doray. Can you please let me know what happened to all of our edits and why this important section was removed? Also the red text about David Hykes now showed up and wasn't there before. I have no idea what is going on. Please advise. THIS IS MY FINAL EDIT. Conceptual-Aesthetics (talk)Conceptual-AestheticsConceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)


 * All of your recent edits are in the article as is the material about Victor Doray. What red text are you talking about? David Hykes is blue-linked to his article. I have also replied to your comments at Talk:Audrey Capel Doray. Voceditenore (talk) 06:41, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Your additions to Audrey Capel Doray
Hi Conceptual-Aesthetics. I've tidied up the formatting of your additions. One thing that's important to remember is that other Wikipedia articles are linked to internally, like this: David Hykes which produces David Hykes—not via an external link e.g. David Hykes.

I think you're going to have a problem with the image, and it will probably be marked for deletion with its current state of documentation. First of all, as the uploader, you do not own the copyright and cannot therefore release it into the public domain. Only the copyright holder can do that. It is also unclear how Doray can hold the copyright, since she obviously did not take the photograph of herself. Copyright rests with the photographer unless Ms. Doray can supply written evidence that the copyright to the image has been transferred to her. All of this needs to be documented via email. You need to read Donating copyrighted materials or Requesting copyright permission very carefully and follow the instructions there meticulously concerning the documentation required. I know this seems rather complicated, but we do this to protect both Wikipedia's legal position and the copyrights of others. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 18:11, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Lost Edits to Audrey Capel Doray
Please Help!

File permission problem with File:Audrey Capel Doray.jpeg
Thanks for uploading File:Audrey Capel Doray.jpeg, which you've attributed to Audrey Capel Doray. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file has agreed to release it under the given license.

If you are the copyright holder for this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either
 * make a note permitting reuse under the CC-BY-SA or another acceptable free license (see this list) at the site of the original publication; or
 * Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to permissions-en@wikimedia.org, stating your ownership of the material and your intention to publish it under a free license. You can find a sample permission letter here. If you take this step, add OTRS pending to the file description page to prevent premature deletion.

If you did not create it entirely yourself, please ask the person who created the file to take one of the two steps listed above, or if the owner of the file has already given their permission to you via email, please forward that email to permissions-en@wikimedia.org.

If you believe the media meets the criteria at Non-free content, use a tag such as non-free fair use or one of the other tags listed at File copyright tags, and add a rationale justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See File copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have created in [ your upload log]. Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. You may wish to read the Wikipedia's image use policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Diannaa (talk) 14:20, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello Conceptual-Aesthetics. You had placed the template OTRS pending in the article Audrey Capel Doray. It belongs on File:Audrey Capel Doray.jpeg. I have removed the template from the article and placed it on the file page page for you. Voceditenore (talk) 16:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Help with the Audrey Capel Doray article
Hi Conceptual-Aesthetics. This is in answer to your queries on my talk page from April 27th.

1. Re a gallery of her work. This will prove complicated as all her art work is considered under copyright for Wikipedia's purposes unless she explicitly releases it under a free license. At the minimum, this means granting the right for the images of her work to be re-used and altered by anyone, even for commercial gain, in perpetuity. In a section above, I've linked to pages outlining the process that needs to be followed to establish that she has granted that right. It may be possible to use one image of her work under fair use, but it would require that the work be discussed in depth in the article in which it appears, and that discussion needs to be referenced to published sources which are entirely independent of the artist. Note also that for images of three-dimensional works (sculptures, installations, etc.), there needs to be separate copyright releases from both the photographer of the work and the artist who created it.

2. Re input from the subject. I am happy to keep an eye on the article to ensure that it complies with Wikipedia's guidelines and policies—fix formatting and style errors, help with referencing, etc. However, for input from the article's subject, I prefer there to be maximum transparency. This needs to be done via communication on Wikipedia itself. I suggest either Ms. Doray or her representative create an account here and communicate with me either on my talk page or on Talk:Audrey Capel Doray. Before doing so, they must thoroughly familiarise themselves with our guidelines and policies at Conflict of interest and be prepared to follow them scrupulously.

Hope that helps. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 06:50, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 8 May
Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. as follows: Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:A930913/RBpreload&editintro=User:A930913/RBeditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:A930913&preloadtitle=ReferenceBot%20–%20&section=new report it to my operator]. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * On the Audrey Capel Doray page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=661483193 your edit] caused an ISBN error (help) and a duplicate page number error (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F661483193%7CAudrey Capel Doray%5D%5D Ask for help])

Recent changes to Audrey Capel Doray
Hi again. I just saw your latest message at my talk page here. Can we please keep the conversation all in one place here at your talk page? You can respond here in this section. I have your page on watch and will reply here. Anyhow, I've reverted your latest addition to the article.

Firstly, it broke the infobox completely. The image has not been deleted and in any case as I said above, the OTRS pending notice goes on the image page, never in the article in which the image appears. I had already corrected this for you and placed the notice on the file page. See File:Audrey Capel Doray.jpeg directly beneath the deletion notice. There is a long backlog at the OTRS desk, so you may not get a response for quite a while. In the meantime, the image will probably not be deleted while the OTRS is pending.

Secondly, please don't keep changing the name and link on Central School of Arts & Crafts. You had changed it to the non-existent article Central School of Arts and Design. I think you were referring to Central School of Art and Design. It was originally called the "Central School of Arts & Crafts" and was only renamed the "Central School of Art and Design" in 1966. Ms. Doray studied there in the 1950s, before the name changed. For accuracy, we use the name of the institution as it was then. But if you click on Central School of Arts & Crafts and look carefully, you'll see that it automatically redirects to the article under the institution's current name where the name change is explained.

Previously, I removed commentary like this:
 * Immersion in closeness to the land, the sea and the sky stimulated her deeper sense of the sensations of life. As a result environmental causes became a natural focus.

We don't say things like that in Wikipedia's voice. If that comment has been previously published, then it may be acceptable to present it as a direct quote with attribution to the source. Otherwise, it doesn't belong here. You have to keep in mind that this article cannot be used to publish Ms. Doray's memoirs or as as her personal statement or website. It cannot contain assertions or commentary which have no published source and/or assertions which do not keep strictly to an objective, neutral point of view. You'll find the guidelines at the following pages helpful in this respect: No original research, Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. You need to be especially careful about this since you have a connection with Ms. Doray. Having a personal connection to the article's subject often makes it very difficult to write objectively in a strictly encyclopedic tone.

Finally, don't worry about the reference format errors. I've fixed them. For future reference, if there is no ISBN number, simply leave the |isbn= parameter blank. Similarly the |pages= parameter is only used to refer to multiple pages, e.g. pp. 11–13. If it's only one page you are citing, e.g. p. 11, fill in |page=, and leave the |pages= parameter blank. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 08:45, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Text removed from Audrey Capel Doray
I'm afraid I've had to remove another addition of yours:
 * Democratization, decentralization were the buzz-words. Art as life, life as art, art as politics, were the images. Art came to be about and for people: people, bodies, senses, participation, opportunity, expansion of consciousness.

You did not mark it in any way as a quotation, but it is verbatim from Pinney, Margaret (1983). Vancouver: Art and Artists 1931 -1983. You cannot copy others' writing like this. It is both a copyright violation and plagiarism. If you wish to reintroduce this material, and I'm not sure that it's entirely appropriate, you need to add it like this:

As Margaret Pinney recounted in 1983, "Democratization, decentralization were the buzz-words. Art as life, life as art, art as politics, were the images. Art came to be about and for people: people, bodies, senses, participation, opportunity, expansion of consciousness."

Voceditenore (talk) 05:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

More Edits for Audrey Capel Doray]
Hi. More edits done in June. Can you please help? Specifically we (Audrey and I) timed out twice! Can you please let me know how long the edit sessions are before time out? Thank you.

Conceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)Conceptual-Aesthetics=

More Edits for Audrey Capel Doray
Hi again. More edits done June 9 with Audrey Capel Doray. We will not be done with this edit phase until the end of June. Please do not remove anything right now, but we will need assist with formatting. And why does the page continually time out? Thanks.

Conceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 23:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)Conceptual-AestheticsConceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 23:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I have removed virtually all of it (as had a previous editor) and will continue to remove all of your inappropriate edits from article space. If you wish to work on material to eventually go in the article, work on it in User:Conceptual-Aesthetics/sandbox. However, I repeat, this is an encyclopedia. It is not Ms. Doray's personal website, personal statement, or place to host her CV. Attempts to use it as such will be reverted. Furthermore, nothing can be placed in the article which does not have a published source to verify it. And where did you get the following chunk of text which I have removed?


 * [...] prefigured computer art of the twenty-first century. This showed the media as an expression of aesthetic and not commercial. The goal was to build community consciousness over an expression of the commercial. This was electronic art on a purely visual basis. Few galleries knew how or had the space to mount a electronically-based art show. Video, film and elaborate circuits, purely technical problems of exhibiting their art limited its impact. With TV technology has become accepted as a science over an aesthetic expression. Scientists have been slow to catalogue the visual phenomenon of science for it's own sake. Data still comes before Dada. Computer graphics were seen as a still-undiscovered art form. A coherent fusion of science and art happening without our being truly aware.


 * This has all the hallmarks of having been copied virtually verbatim from somewhere. If so, presenting it as your own work without quotes is both plagiarism and a copyright violation. If you actually wrote that yourself, it is wildly inappropriate for an encyclopedia, and can never be "said" in Wikipedia's voice. Have you read at all the explanations and advice I have given you above about your previous instance of adding material like this? Have you read the guidelines which pertain to your obvious and serious conflict of interest here? If not, please read Conflict of interest and Autobiography (since you are trying to create one on Ms. Doray's behalf) and follow the guidelines there scrupulously.


 * Per those guidelines, you should in future put any material you think should be added to the article on Talk:Audrey Capel Doray for assessment by editors without a conflict of interest. I'm sorry to have to take such a blunt tone here, but so far nothing else seems to have worked. If you continue adding inappropriate material to that article, I will remove it without further wasting my time with adding commentary here which you simply ignore.


 * One final question, and this is important, have you shared your password to this account with Ms. Doray? Voceditenore (talk) 10:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Reply to Voceditenore
Thank you again for your comments. I am sorry but I know little about Wikipedia and I will review your posts again. Meanwhile, I have not given Ms. Doray my password. I have not written any content myself, other than paraphrasing. Ms. Doray has not written anything herself, either, which I have been careful about. I have included a citation for the above quote but forgot the quotes. Mistakes happen. I would like to work on edits until the end of June. I have been editing in User:Conceptual-Aesthetics/sandbox but lost all edits apparently because I didn't save. However, when I save I seem to be posting the article as live on Wikipedia at the same time. Is there a way to edit and have the edits there the next time I sign on without posting the article as live each time? Again, I apologize if the answer to this is somewhere on Wikipedia and/or if you have already answered this but I am sincerely trying to follow all guidelines and there are many. Just to let you know--I will be stepping away from this project at the end of June, but would like to add some content and corrections in the meantime.

Conceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 18:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Conceptual-AestheticsConceptual-Aesthetics (talk) 18:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I've fixed the problem with User:Conceptual-Aesthetics/sandbox. It was redirecting to Audrey Capel Doray, an artefact from when it was moved to that title to create the article. You can now edit in your sandbox and the edits will remain there, provided you save them. They will not go directly into the article. I've left a note on the top of your sandbox stating that it previously redirected to Audrey Capel Doray.


 * I'm not sure what you mean by "timing out" above. Are you talking about seeing the message below in red letters when you try to save your edits?
 * Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try again. If it still does not work, try logging out and logging back in.
 * That happens when you have failed to save or preview your new edits for an overly long period (sometimes only a few minutes). Rather than logging out, simply hit the "Show preview" button again. If the new preview shows, then hit "Save page". The new preview will have re-saved your session data. However, the only sure way to preserve your work when actively editing, is to save it by pressing the "Save page" button frequently. Once saved, even if you accidentally close your browser or leave the page in the middle of your next edit, your previous ones will still be in the article. Another tip, is to press the "Show preview" button frequently, even if you aren't ready to save it yet. This preserves your session data and also allows you to proofread your work and correct any errors before saving them. Voceditenore (talk) 09:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Re the quote from Arthur Perry, I'm afraid that even if you clearly marked it as a quote, it is way too long to comply with our policies on the use of copyright text, even in quotes. At most, you can quote one or two sentences, but only if preserving the author's exact words instead of summarizing them is essential for the reader's understanding of the matter at hand. Much of the critic's commentary like "Data still comes before Dada" and "The goal was to build community consciousness over an expression of the commercial", is utterly superfluous to the description of Victor Doray's installation, or even the critical response to it. Note that I have now made a separate section for Victor Doray. Trying to insert material about him where you did had made the article incoherent.


 * Finally, before you edit the article again read the history. Click on the "View history" tab at the top of the article. It will produce this. Then read the edit summaries from the editors who have changed the article since you last edited it. They will explain (briefly) why the editor made the changes and what they were. Don't simply go back to the article and restore your version without seeing and trying to understand why the material you had added was considered unsuitable and removed. If you disagree with its removal, then discuss it on Talk:Audrey Capel Doray. That is what article talk pages are for. Voceditenore (talk) 10:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

File:Audrey Capel Doray.jpeg
The follow-up email regarding this photo has not been reviewed and processed yet but it should be shortly. I will let you know here when the photograph's status changes. Cheers. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The permission for this photograph has been confirmed, so there should be no further concerns about it. Thank you for patience. Cheers! VernoWhitney (talk) 12:26, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Deletion pending for File:Here and Beyond Multi-Media Mirrored Installation.jpg
Hello, Conceptual-Aesthetics. Some time ago, a file you uploaded &mdash; File:Here and Beyond Multi-Media Mirrored Installation.jpg &mdash; was tagged with OTRS pending, indicating that you (or perhaps the copyright holder if you did not create this image) submitted a statement of permission to permissions-en@wikimedia.org. Though there is often a backlog processing messages received at this address, we should have received your message by now.


 * If you have not submitted (or forwarded) a statement of permission, please send it immediately to permissions-en@wikimedia.org and let us know at the OTRS noticeboard that you have done so.


 * If you have already sent this message, it is possible that there was a problem receiving it. Please re-send it to permissions-en@wikimedia.org and let us know at the OTRS noticeboard that you have done so.

If we don't hear from you within one week, the file will be deleted. If we can help you, please feel free to ask at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 14:37, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Deletion pending for File:Hexagon-Six-Panel Multi-Media Installation by Audrey Capel Doray.jpg
Hello, Conceptual-Aesthetics. Some time ago, a file you uploaded &mdash; File:Hexagon-Six-Panel Multi-Media Installation by Audrey Capel Doray.jpg &mdash; was tagged with OTRS pending, indicating that you (or perhaps the copyright holder if you did not create this image) submitted a statement of permission to permissions-en@wikimedia.org. Though there is often a backlog processing messages received at this address, we should have received your message by now.


 * If you have not submitted (or forwarded) a statement of permission, please send it immediately to permissions-en@wikimedia.org and let us know at the OTRS noticeboard that you have done so.


 * If you have already sent this message, it is possible that there was a problem receiving it. Please re-send it to permissions-en@wikimedia.org and let us know at the OTRS noticeboard that you have done so.

If we don't hear from you within one week, the file will be deleted. If we can help you, please feel free to ask at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 14:38, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I found (eventually) this permission statement, and processed it.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  14:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

File:Audrey Capel Doray.jpeg listed for discussion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Audrey Capel Doray.jpeg, has been listed at Files for discussion. Please see the to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Ron h jones (Talk) 20:04, 13 November 2016 (UTC)