User talk:Cpogge



Welcome to Wikipedia from Wikiproject Medicine (also known as WPMED). We're a group of editors who strive to improve the quality of medical articles here on Wikipedia. One of our members has noticed that you are interested in editing medical articles; it's great to have a new interested editor on board. In your wiki-voyages, a few things that may be relevant to editing Wikipedia articles are:


 * Thanks for coming aboard! We always appreciate a new editor. Feel free to leave us a message at any time on our talk page. If you are interested in joining the project yourself, there is a participant list where you can sign up. Please leave a message on the WPMED talk page if you have any problems, suggestions, would like review of an article, need suggestions for articles to edit, or would like some collaboration when editing!
 * Sourcing of medical and health-related content on Wikipedia is guided by our medical sourcing guidelines, commonly referred to as MEDRS. These guidelines typically requires recent secondary sources to support information; its application is further explained here. Primary sources (case studies, case reports, research studies) are rarely used, especially if the primary sources are produced by the organisation or individual who is promoting a claim.
 * Wikipedia is a kingdom full of a wide variety of editors with different interests, skills, and knowledge. We all manage to get along through a lot of discussion that happens under the scenes and through the bold, edit, discuss editing cycle. If you encounter any problems, you can discuss it on an article's talk page or post a message on the WPMED talk page.

Feel free to drop a note below, if you have any problems. I wish you all the best on your wiki voyages! Jytdog (talk) 04:34, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of Indonesia top 3 disease burden for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Indonesia top 3 disease burden is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Indonesia top 3 disease burden until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 03:32, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi
Hi Cpogge. The article you created is really... different from any other Wikipedia article. As noted in the ongoing deletion discussion already, it appears to run up against some of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia. I don't think it is salvageable.

Over the past 15 years the people who have built Wikipedia - what we call "the community" - has developed a series of "policies and guidelines" that govern what happens here (these were not passed down from on high; the community itself developed them).

One of them, is that we don't allow what we call "original research". The article you created appears to have a lot of your own ideas in it. Please do read original research and have another look at your article.

We don't allow original research - instead, everything - everything -- in Wikipedia must be verifiable (another policy) by what we call a "reliable source"; you actually need to be able to provide a citation for every idea in WP; it can't just be made up. If the content is WP:Biomedical information (pretty much anything about a disease or health), a reliable source is defined in WP:MEDRS; for everything else, a reliable source is defined in WP:RS. I don't know, for instance, what the source of the data in the figures you uploaded are; nobody does, because you didn't provide a source, so we cannot tell if it is based on a reliable source or not.

Also people have a lot of ideas about what Wikipedia is, and a lot of them are wrong. This happens so often that one of our policies is called What Wikipedia is Not. (funny name). It briefly describes what Wikipedia is and what our mission is, but most of is about, well, what Wikipedia is not. Your article seems intended to a great extent to advocate that the government of Indonesia should do more to address these three top diseases. That goes against the part of NOT is called "Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion", but as I said, it appears you are trying to use it that way.

Please do read what is at each of those links I just provided.

I noticed you were continuing to edit, but as I said, I don't think there is a way that this can be salvaged... You are free to try, of course.

Happy to talk if you have any questions. Jytdog (talk) 04:51, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Just want to add, that this was clearly a lot of work! It just seems to have been misdirected...  I am sorry about that. Jytdog (talk) 04:56, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Jytdog - I'm clearly new to Wiki... a group of us from my doctorate program had the assignment to edit or create a wiki page about health systems. The information on our page is nearly 100% cited, aside from connecting sentences or transition phrases. Short of citing each and every sentence I'm clearly not getting how this is to work.


 * That said the information posted is a collection of information from WHO, IHME and other notable global health sources. I wish I had the chance to go to Indonesia and do the research required for this level of information :)


 * As for the graphics - Each is labeled in the paragraph with a source noted for each. I'll admit maybe my formatting needs to happen differently, but it's all there.


 * I did review the links, and still believe our page fulfills the intent of the policies/Wikipedia.


 * Finally - as a community has there been consideration to the professionalism of the postings for deletion? I very much appreciate your thoughtful and professional note above, but wondered about the initial comments I read "Nuke it now". It just seems to me that if folks want to be taken seriously as editors/reviewers for Wiki they might at least act the part. Finally, is there any criteria to reviewers? I noticed the person proposing to nuke the post without any additional thought/comment appears to be a writing or Roman fortress information. what's that have to do with Disease burdens in Indonesia? Guess I would think some folks are looking at format/overview and others might review for field of expertise/interest content.


 * Thanks again for your thoughtful response on the discussion board and above!


 * I should add - clearly I'm new at this game... took me a good 10 minutes to realize I had to edit this page just to "talk" to you! Or at least I think that's how this works?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cpogge (talk • contribs) 05:14, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes you figured it out - this is how we talk to each other.
 * Quick note on the logistics of discussing things on Talk pages, which are essential for everything that happens here. In Talk page discussions, we "thread" comments by indenting - when you reply to someone, you put a colon ":" in front of your comment, and the WP software converts that into an indent; if the other person has indented once, then you indent twice by putting two colons "::" which the WP software converts into two indents, and when that gets ridiculous you reset back to the margin (or "outdent") by putting this in front of your comment. This also allows you to make it clear if you are also responding to something that someone else responded to if there are more than two people in the discussion; in that case you would indent the same amount as the person just above you in the thread.  I hope that all makes sense. And at the end of the comment, please "sign" by typing exactly four (not 3 or 5) tildas "~" which the WP software converts into a date stamp and links to your talk and user pages.  That is how we know who said what.  I know this is insanely archaic and unwieldy, but this is the software environment we have to work on. Sorry about that.  Will reply on the substance in a second... Jytdog (talk) 05:26, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * OK, responding to the substance now... I am sorry about the deletion discussion; people who are experienced can often be too harsh (I fall afoul of that too sometimes).   The problems with the article are significant.  It really is not OK to write things in Wikipedia like " Indonesians must recognize non-communicable diseases as their largest health burden and ensure their health infrastructure can meet the unique and increasing demands resulting from these types of diseases."  (this is advocating a point of view; something we editors cannot do)  And the following, "Despite stroke being the leading cause of death (and increasing with time), there are few references specific to stroke prevention or treatment efforts. " is clearly something that is the result of your own looking into the literature - your conclusions.  This is classic "original research".


 * The mission of Wikipedia is really simple - we summarize accepted knowledge, and we cite the sources where we found that "accepted knowledge".  I know it is hard to read your own work with really fresh eyes, but if you do, you will see a lot of your own ideas in there; things you cannot provide a citation for.   It might be helpful to you read this thing on my User page.. User:Jytdog - it is about what we do here as Wikipedia editors (the name is chosen intentionally - we aren't "authors".)  You may also want to read WP:EXPERT which is really helpful.    Please do read the links I've provided.  Wikipedia is not like other places and it takes some effort and time to understand how things work here.  (there is more to discuss, but I don't want to overwhelm you)   Going to bed now! Jytdog (talk) 05:32, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * additional note - above, you said that your class had an assignment to work in Wikipedia. We have a whole infrastructure to help with that.  Would you please ask your instructor to contact the folks at Education program?  Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2016 (UTC)