User talk:Crossthets/archive1

Welcome!

Hello, Crossthets, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! --Enric Naval (talk) 02:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
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Political comments on ancient times articles
While it's good that you want to prevent disruption to articles, I would thank you to please not use the talk pages of ancient times stuff to discuss contemporany political stuff as you did on Talk:Alexander the Great. See the WP:TALK wikipedia style guideline on commenting on talk pages --Enric Naval (talk) 02:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The point was to address the recurring references that suggest "Macedonia wasn't Greek" in the Alexander Talk pages. Clearly their intent is political in nature and some sort of disclaimer seemed in order to prevent unauthentic contributions.


 * Although I disagree with your choice to completely remove a disclaimer in the Alexander talk page (not the main article) as I mentioned in your own talk page I will accept the removal( since I'm new here and bow to your wisdom). I only ask that you please consider my concerns that the talk page is heavily politicized already.


 * --Crossthets (talk) 02:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You are right that the talk page can get very politized (it changes with time as old discussions get archived, and new discussions get opened). A warning (not a disclaimer) could be good, but it ought to be at the top of the page (with the other boxes at the top of the talk page) and be very short and neutral, and its rationale should rely on historical sources for ancient times, and not on the current political situation. Sorry for taking so long, but I had stuff to do outside of wikipedia. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible for you to add the warning Enric? This way if could be done to your own satisfaction?Crossthets (talk) 09:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I made a short warning. It's all I could think of. I copied the code from Talk:Homeopathy. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Macedonia
Replied at my talk to keep it together. Cheers, AndrewHowse (talk) 21:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * And again. --AndrewHowse (talk) 15:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you log in, I think you'll be able to create a page. If you can follow this and this then you should avoid too much trouble. If you don't log in, then you can't create a page. --AndrewHowse (talk) 21:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * And I left you one more thought on my talk too. Tread lightly! --AndrewHowse (talk) 21:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Formal warning
Just to preserve the warning I gave you yesterday on your User talk:209.161.227.67. You have been harassing User:BalkanFever with vexatious complaints, and you have been editing in a generally tendentious way, trying to maximise and promote the representation of one national viewpoint over another. This is not welcome here.

In a 2007 arbitration case, administrators were given the power to impose discretionary sanctions on any user editing Balkans-related articles in a disruptive way. If you, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. Thank you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The thread at WP:AN has been formally closed by an uninvolved administrator -- me. There is nothing that can be done with your report at its current state, and at this point, it appears to be nothing more than a witchhunt done in bad faith. If (and when) your detailed report is ready, feel free to unarchive the thread and post at it, but the continued harassment of an editor is only diluting whatever arguments you may have had. seicer  &#x007C;  talk  &#x007C;  contribs  03:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

As you are still continuing your trolling campaign about BalkanFever's user page despite all warnings, most recently with, I've blocked you (both on this account and on the IP) for 24h. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

To address the points above by Futper and Seicer.

"Just to preserve the warning I gave you yesterday on your User talk:209.161.227.67. You have been harassing User:BalkanFever with vexatious complaints, and you have been editing in a generally tendentious way, trying to maximise and promote the representation of one national viewpoint over another. This is not welcome here."


 * I reject your assertion of "harassment" and in turn once again suggest your are abusing your admin authority to support the FYROM viewpoint (or someone who's your friend) either by editting out facts or harassing users.


 * Case in point. At the drop of a hat you came running to Balkanfever's help because I simply contacted him on his talk page to discuss some things I disagreed with him on and asked him to remove a link (no name calling.. and this after he had made a MASSIVE edit to the Macedonian naming dispute article without justifying each one ). You then verbally abused me and threatened to block me.... without even responding to any of my concerns.


 * While I freely admit I have a strong viewpoint that supports one side... I don't believe it is based on irrationally. You now say that my POV is "not welcome here" and yet you seem to conveniently neglect balkanfevers page is one giant anti-Greek agenda with some links to articles being outright lies. (e.g. Greeks want death penelty only for FYROM citizens? A country with no death penelty?)


 * And you are still harassing me, despite that you are being officially accused of inappropriate behavior, which is a clear conflict of interest until my evidence is reviewed by someone inpartial.

"In a 2007 arbitration case, administrators were given the power to impose discretionary sanctions on any user editing Balkans-related articles in a disruptive way. If you engage in further inappropriate behaviour in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. Thank you. Fut.Perf. ¤ 07:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)"


 * I would like to record that this additional threat by Futper came a few minutes after I had made an anon complaint about him (without mentioning his name or specific articles) I see this as roughly analagous to me complaining about a corrupt cop... than shortly thereafter that same cop "accidentially" pays me a visit and threatens to give me a ticket for speeding. Highly inappropriate.

"The thread at WP:AN has been formally closed by an uninvolved administrator -- me. There is nothing that can be done with your report at its current state, and at this point, it appears to be nothing more than a witchhunt done in bad faith. If (and when) your detailed report is ready, feel free to unarchive the thread and post at it, but the continued harassment of an editor is only diluting whatever arguments you may have had. seicer | talk | contribs 03:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)"
 * I appreciate your willingness to have someone later review my issue. I will indeed followup in a few days (no more than a week). However, as I mentioned on the (now archived) complaint thread... I don't think it is appropriate for that someone that has used the words "annoying", "witchhunt", "harassment" ...and claims to be "uninvolved" with the accussed but on further querings discloses prior dealings with one or both of the accused admins. Perhaps I have irked you in some unintended way by the way I have worded things and your reply is sincere but I believe your involvement at this point is inappropriate. It makes the situation appear as one friendly admin looking after the back of another.


 * A judge with a NPOV waits to see the evidence before making sweeping accusations. All I have asked for at this point is simply an admin that has no involvement with the admins/articles in question to review my evidence (once prepared). I can only hope this request is fulfilled when my report is presented.

As you are still continuing your trolling campaign about BalkanFever's user page despite all warnings, most recently with 209.161.238.86 (talk • contribs • info • WHOIS) ([1]), I've blocked you (both on this account and on the IP) for 24h. Fut.Perf. ¤ 08:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The accussed cop now throwing the accuser in the drink? Some people would suggest that is highly inappropriate behavior and someone else should be handling the case because of potential conflict of interest. Unless your contact with me at this point is to resolve this issue politely... without pulling rank... I view all contact as harassment and abuse of your power as admin. I wish to make it absolutely clear my primary beef is with you and Beam not Balkanfever (which I noted on the official anon complaint that specifically was titled admin conflict of interest--with a question mark--and no mention of your name).


 * My problem is I can deal politely with Balkanfever as equals... as long as I don't have two admins that seemingly behave as his personal body guards... while simultaneously being officially accused of bias in that regard.


 * What it seems like at this moment...is that your blocking is just a smokescreen to protect yourself. You clearly just saw that I am gathering evidence specifically against you (the references IP you made was used to contact others that have had issues with you... as you must know). You therefore are doing everything in your power to interfere with a fair assessment.


 * Again a police analogy. It is highly inappropriate for a police officer to interfere with his own investigation.


 * As a programmer I could have easily proxied my way around you blocking me but even now I respect all Wikipedia guideslines as best as I have interpreted them. I realize I am bucking the admin system and some admins are bound to be on very good terms with other admins... which makes it only so much harder to get a NPOV (much less for a newb). However, I still plan to push forward with my complaint until reviewed by a POLITE neutral party that does not harass me with blocking or calling me names as you did on our first discussion. (in direct violation of Wikipedia civility guidelines).


 * If this third party can convince me that you are not in the wrong...I will apologize to you. If he says otherwise I expect an apology from you. This is not in the least personal. I'm not looking to punish anyone here. My only goal is simply a fair chance to be heard without being harassed every time I make a factually accurate post on Macedonian issues. If someone wants to reword something thats perfectly fine (I too can sometimes make bad choices in words). But either they must do it... or justify their deletion on request. It is completely inappropriate for his admin friends to be at his beck-and-call to oppress voices simply because they may conflict with his worldview.


 * I don't think this is an unreasonable request. --209.161.236.222 (talk) 10:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you want somebody else to review this, use unblock. Good luck. You were already politely told to back off by multiple uninvolved people yesterday on WP:AN. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Futper,

By saying "You were already politely told to back off by multiple uninvolved people yesterday on WP:AN" you are misrepresenting the facts. Who exactly are these "Multiple uninvolved"? There was Beam... one of the admins accused with being too friendly with openly anti-Greek Balkanfever. There was seicer... who initially claimed "univolvement" but after I queried him admitted a prior dealings with either one or both of you. And there Barneca... who while he used the word "bitter" in the end to describe me (after I only spoke politely to him) and to "block" me... without giving me a chance to provide said evidence (which I said would take days)... is the lone admin who may be impartial here. (although I still have yet to ask him if he has prior dealings with any of you three)

So who exactly did you block me for again? You suggest Balkanfever but I did not try contacting him (or you for that matter). What you are really saying by this block is you didn't want me to contact people you may have harassed in the past. On the plus side though, you are being much more polite to me. You said "good luck" instead of...


 * "Every sane person with normal adult intelligence can see that your allegations against B.F. are nonsensical. If you can't see that yourself, it's probably no use me trying to explain it to you. I will simply block you if you continue with this topic, for being either a malicious troll or too clueless for rational discussion"

An examination of my complaint in further detail (the one you said was nonsensical)

This is a relisting of my concerns that you conveniently removed from you talk page after you name called me. (I've also added some evidence below it that apparently you didn't think were worth mentioning to [[WP:AN])

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise&diff=227239028&oldid=227233893

1. Has a user page that includes a long list of anti-Greek sentiment by mostly questionable FYROM news sources.

True. Pulled from just ONE section of his talk page. A single sided collection of anti-Greek links with titles to virtually only "FYROM" websites that exaggerate about some of the facts to point that might be considered lies. (which as I said... there is a current UN Senate resolution condemning the propaganda coming out of FYROM) He also makes no mention of the considerable number of incidents perpetrated by FYROM citizens on Greeks

Greek Paper shows Bush as Hitler and a Macedonian swastika (the same time the Greek swastika occurred - right before NATO) - uncertain of the claim but I am certain that the "World Macedonian Congress" just finished calling the Secretary General of Nato "racist and facist" for simply suggesting a compromise with Greece... and now accusing Greece of "genocide"? (from a FYROM website incidentally)

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2339/45/

Macedonians attacked in Greece - according to his own article aside from inappropriate vandalism.. ONLY a SINGLE FYROM citizen was "kicked in the kidneys" (which was inappropropriate but notice he used PLURAL)

Another cowardly attack on Macedonians in Greece - apparently "vandalism" over disputed national symbols = "cowardly attack" in the FYROM lexicon

Greek authorities continue to abuse ethnic Macedonians - apparently "vandalism" over disputed national symbols = "abuse" in the FYROM lexicon

Greece abuses Macedonians at the border, again - apparently "abuses" translated from FYROM = Not allowing someone to cross into the Greek border

Greek MP asks for death penalty for Macedonians in Greece - This one really made me laugh. Greece does not have a death penalty.

Greek-Macedonian name dispute leads to ban on lamb meat - because as everyone knows nations that feel threatened by abusive neighbours are not allowed to impose sanctions.

Macedonia Plane Barred from Greek Airspace - because as everyone knows nations that feel threatened by abusive neighbours are not allowed to impose sanctions.

Macedonia to ask Greece for explanation on MAT - because as everyone knows nations that feel threatened by abusive neighbours are not allowed to impose sanctions.

Greece bans financial transfers from, and to Macedonia - because as everyone knows nations that feel threatened by abusive neighbours are not allowed to impose sanctions.

Greece outrages Macedonia with ban on presidential flight - because as everyone knows nations that feel threatened by abusive neighbours are not allowed to impose sanctions.

UMD Taken Aback by Metropolitan Anthimos’ Threatening Statement (Top Greek bishop calls for war with Macedonia) - this is true... and it was wrong to do. Balkanfever neglects to mention that a FYROM christian leader also made loud claims that northern greece actually belongs to FYROM

Another Greek metropolitan bishop states territorial claims for Macedonia - this is true... and it was wrong to do. Balkanfever neglects to mention that a FYROM christian leader also made loud claims that northern greece actually belongs to FYROM

Greek media fumes over comments from MOC - when Balkanfever notices said FYROM christian leader... instead of condemning the comments... he twists it into "Greek media fumes"?

Greece's comments of H.H. Stefan's statement in Rome intended for domestic political scene - same issue... still no condemnation by balkanfever. Everything is clearly Greece's fault.

Heated debate at the EU, Macedonian delegation not present - article from FYROM site (as are most of the above). Hard to guage its accuracy. (may be true)

Protest letter sent to Nato over an incident - "incident" was Greece (a Nato member) asking soldiers by FYROM (a non-Nato member) to remove disputed emblems from their persons. The dispute over names and symbols is part of ongoing US/UN mediation that so far is being PEACEFUL resolved. (hopefully it doesn't escalate into another Israel/Palestine situation)

2. Balkanfever has at least on one occasion mass deleted factual additions to the Greek Macedonian naming dispute issue without offering justification or rewordings

True again. Here is my switching back of his mass edit. Which I had asked him to politely talk about on his talk page why he removed so many factual edits at once... instead he removed my comments and back channeled not one... but two admins in an attempt to scare me off (you and beam)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macedonia_naming_dispute&diff=226467380&oldid=226452770

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BalkanFever&diff=226473305&oldid=226473212

3. Has a link on his user page to a map of Greece where half of Greece is missing to something called "greater Macedonia".

True. I won't go over in long detail again until me final report. I recognize that you think the map is only about a general Balkan dreams of empire. (and probably most people uninformed about the current FYROM propaganda would feel the same) However, when ones factors in US Senate resolutions again FYROM for teaching their kids that Northern Greece belongs to FYROM... that balkanfever shows a clearly hateful anti-Greek agenda... AND the creator of the disputed image is FYROM (I checked (I officially retract the last sentence... turns out he just had dealings with university of FRYOM. I am unsure of his ethnic status). This is too much to bear.... much less having two admins come harass me with blocking me for even discussing my concerns.

If this map link was from some uninvolved third party... that would be one thing.... but you need to understand that given the current situation most Greeks no longer care the justifications that FYROM citizens keep using to draw maps of northern Greece being their lands. (Again.. this isn't just me saying this. The US Congress passed a resolution against it)

''4. Has many other complaints of this sort directed at him. ''

True. I will dig up more references but I believe Beam (apparently his good friend because the record will show there was a great deal of joking banter between them long prior to me ever getting here) who even warned him of some other complaint just prior that I discussed the naming issue with him.

A post by admin BEAM pulled directly from Balkanfevers talkpage

AN/i report about you

Notification of proceedings against you at the notice board. Beam 15:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks :). BalkanFever 10:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion

I think its pretty clear you didn't review my concerns Furper (or did so very superficially) before you went on to insult me and harass me with a blocking threat. I currently have two outstanding questions for both you and Beam. (You can avoid answering... in which case I will just research it and pull relevant quotes)

1. You know I am from a Greek background but I don't know your background. Even if you are part of some diaspora, are your roots from the region? And if so.. where? I'm not saying you are from the region but I would at least like to eliminate that as a possibility as I think this disclosure is especially important given the circumstances you are an admin.

2. Are you on very friendly terms with with Balkanfever? And if so... for how long? And if so... do you see any potential conflict of interest possibly arising between an admin who's friends with someone with a strong anti-Greek POV.... and has the power to enforce issues over Macedonia related articles?

Finally. This is not my report. It is only a subsection of it that will be reworded in an attempt to be more concise. I am in the midst of gathering facts (and references). Hopefully we can get over this issue once some impartial admin gets to see everything I have amassed. I only planning to ask that you and Beam are restricted from having anything to do with Macedonia related issues.. or... that you politely apologize for name calling me and inappropriately used your admin authority to threaten me with blocking. Again, this is nothing personal. I just think you have been hoodwinked by FYROM propaganda. (it works... why people use it). I'm sure you're a fine person in real life.--Crossthets (talk) 17:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

dispute resolution
I don't take kindly to you lecturing me. I'll leave that to the admins, or even people who actually contribute to the encyclopaedia. And stop copying comments directed to me from my archives, I've read them. Yes, I was blocked for incivility, but that was in November, and this is August. Yes, I called Greeks "assfuckers" to illustrate a point. So what? I have Greek friends, and I don't think of them as assfuckers. I'm very, very sure that you don't have any friends from the Republic of Macedonia. I don't need to explain myself to every nationalist that comes along screaming about something that I did. This is your last warning, stop harassing me. By that I mean stop mentioning me to everyone you talk to, as you did with Politis. You were blocked once for trolling and harassment already, but I don't randomly bring that up like you. So, politely, stop.  Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 07:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No you please stop with your continued false allegations, name calling/threats, and abuse of Wikipedia to further your seemingly ultra nationalistic views on FYROM/RoM. Try and remember I didn't initiate this conversation... you did. I haven't even once tried talking to you after our last encounter and the record shows you are the one that initiated contact with me on the Macedonia naming dispute talkpage (and now here on my talkpage) ... which immediately began with a steady stream of rude comments like "leave", "go away", "idiot", "brainwashed"... and now threats of "last chance".


 * Trust me when I say I have absolutely nothing to say to you as your name calling and continued harassment make it impossible to have a civil conversation. The first time we talked you basically tried the exact same thing when you immediately began a campaign to harass and block me (a new user with no prior issues, no revert war, no attempts at sock puppetry, and someone that didn't name call you). Apparently initiating contact with me on the article talkpage (where I was trying to address someone else) was simply a ploy to launch into yet another name calling tirade and subsequent blocking campaign. Next time I would appreciate it if you first contact me (or an admin) directly with your complaints rather than pretending sincere discussion of the article is your intent. I presume your ongoing persecution theater is the technique you use to manipulate Wikipedia admins into blocking/threatening contributors that go against your seemingly irredentist FYROM/RoM political views.


 * I say "irredentist" because your lopsided edit history on FYROM/RoM related issues comes across exactly like last years US Congress Bill HR 356 which denounced FYROM/RoM for hostility and propaganda directed at Greeks. I at least disclose my positions and make no false claims of neutrality on the naming dispute issue... whereas you pretend to be neutral in an attempt to manipulate Wikipedian admins. A claim of others being "nationalists" coming from you is irony at it's finest. You may be at Wikipedian for a few months more than me but as someone that has actually bothered to do a thorough examination of your editing history, I know in great detail a few things about you other Wikipedians may not.


 * you have a very long number of edits with a single sided FYROM/RoM agenda.
 * you keep making negative stereotypes and references to most (of not all) Greek Wikipedia editors
 * you carefully delete any mention of cultural patrimony over ancient Macedon and Alexander the Great (unless it supports FYROM/RoM positions)
 * virtually every delete of facts you do from the naming dispute article are ones that support Greek positions
 * Your talk page which includes a long list of anti-Greek propaganda pulled from FYROM websites that include sensationalist titles like "Greek MP asks for death penalty for Macedonians in Greece".(You might want to update that since Greece doesn't actually have a death penalty).
 * You appear to be on friendly terms with several FYROM/RoM Wikipedia users that seem to be supporters of (illegal?) irredentist United_Macedonia... whose ultimate goal is to take a third of Greece and append it to FYROM/RoM
 * Add to this snide unapologetic comments like "assfuckers" to describe Greeks,your constant harassment of Greek contributors... and the picture is pretty clear how "neutral" and unbiased you are.


 * No one cares about your personal justifications to make a bigoted statements like "assfuckers" to describe Greeks. This isn't a bar to tell drunken jokes and or poetry class to experiment with risque analogies. It's common sense professional conduct is expected of contributors. As I said there are gray zones but expletives like "assfuckers" surely isn't one of them (and apparently you haven't learned since you were blocked as you continue to make excuses to justify it) Please try and remember it was completely unrelated user complaints that blocked you the last time not me. And blocked or not since that time, you well know since then there have been several more complaints of incivility against you (by several different users). One doesn't have to go far to evidence of your name calling. ( i.e. You just called me idiot brainwashed and a troll)


 * You mentioned you're "very sure" I don't have any friends from FYROM/RoM. From my standpoint, you even bringing up such an inane issue as your "Greek friends" (several times now) makes it appear like you have some sort of guilty conscious and are trying to demonstrate "see I don't really hate Greeks". If you do have any, I doubt they have a remote clue about your hateful anti-Greek POV on Wikipedia.


 * So please feel free to go ahead to make an official complaint at Wi:AN. Or contact Futper again if you think it's appropriate to use a personal admin friend (in a conflict of interest) to block me for no apparent reason. Since Futper (who is hardly neutral with regards to FYROM/RoM issues himself) is now focusing on the articles I was ready to let it slide but if you want a fight I am fully prepared to bring up your long history of abuse against me (and many others). Before doing so I suggest you spend a second reading Wikipedia admin code of conduct beforehand.


 * threatening a user with an inappropriate block is just as bad behavior as actually making that block
 * admins are expected to behave in a civil manner
 * admins should never use their admin abilities to intimidate others
 * An admin should not block a user if they are not neutral with respect to that user, or have a conflict of interest


 * And if you choose not to go about this the long nasty way... then I will consider the matter dropped (as long as you stop name calling me and focus on the articles). As I said to Futper... the decision is entirely up to you.


 * (btw -I recently read Wikipedia rules state "Never use headings to attack other users" so I've changed the title to something more neutral and descriptive of our current dispute) Crossthets (talk) 23:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, yeah whatever. I'm not wasting my time on an ANI for you. You're still concentrating on an edit that I made last year. Get over it. Bringing up previous blocks is harassment, so don't do it. Seriously. You can have your "proof" that I'm an anti-hellene and whatnot, I don't care. Funny how everyone who complains about my alleged incivility is a nationalist. Don't try to play innocent here - you continually trolled my talk page with your "complaints".  Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 03:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * When this dispute originally started between us it was after I politely went to your talkpage to discuss a massive edit you made on Macedonia Naming dispute article (which was never fully explained but you made a point to delete the query) AND you were immediately hostile to me. I returned in like (in self-defense) when I started reading just how one sided your posts against Greece are. (when you called in your admin friend Futper to threaten the newb).


 * Please don't try an portray yourself as "neutral" because anyone that authentically investigates your editing history can easily determine that you are a FYROM supporter... obsessively so I might add Compared to my occasional posting, you post nearly daily on FYROM related issues and almost without fail pro FYROM position. Heck even your user page currently has a barnstar from a FYROM nationalist (whose currently banned from Wikipedia) that says


 * for your extraordinary hard work defending Macedonian Colors.


 * Your continued lack of disclosure certainly does lend the appearance you feel you are doing something wrong. However, you being a supporter of FYROM is not a crime (as it is not a crime to be a supporter of Greece). What's important here is factual information be allowed to enter the article and fabricated facts not be allowed (on both sides of the issue). Futper, who also seems to be a FYROM supporter, appears to have chilled out with name calling me. So I'm more than happy to just stick to arguing points with him as long as he continues to do so. What remains to be seen is if you are willing to do the same.


 * All I ask is please justify edits in the future and don't make this personal by threatening me (e.g. last chance ), or name calling me (e.g. troll. nationalist idiot, brainwashed, etc...). I don't want to censor you but I will defend myself if attacked in this manner again and will indeed take this up with ANI if you continue to do so (not anonymous general questions next time).


 * So I suggest either make the complaint now or let the matter drop and stick to arguing facts on the articles. I will try to respond in like. If anything I say offends you please feel free to bring it up here... politely... and we can discuss sans the threats. You will find my posts tend to be factually accurate and I'm not unreasonable when spoken to in a polite manner.


 * So as I said before... I leave it to you to decide which way this is going to go. Crossthets (talk) 04:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't bring up anything about my userpage or accuse me of something with each edit you make. That's all. If things are so easy to see then there's no need for you to bring it up, is there now?  Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 09:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've made it a point to bring up your diffs so as to keep a centralized record of our issues until they are resolved (I'll attempt to deescalate here by trying not to go over more points in finer detail). Suffice to say given we both appear to have strong opposing views on some FYROM/Macedonia(Greece) related issues so we are occasionally going to butt heads. However, this is no reason to censor pertinent facts, name call, or use threats. I'm still a newb here but I've spent quite a bit of time reading up on Wikipedia guidelines. They seem to specifically stipulate that blocking is mostly related to people that name call or resort to revert wars. As long as the edits are factual and pertinent (and users follow established Wikipedia code of conduct), there is no reason to name call or censor anyone for being either a Greek or FYROM supporter. I also see no reason for someone not to make justified verifiable changes to our edits (or we to theirs).


 * What I'm trying to contain here are the constant threats and name calling. If someone names calls (e.g. even terms like "nationalist" are often meant in a derogatory way) or someone threatens to block someone at every corner (for no apparent reason)... it's going to cause unnecessary friction which will distract us from the articles.


 * Perhaps we can push forward with some of both our concerns by agreeing on the following?


 * A. If you try to stop name calling and making unnecessary snap blocking threats (unless it relates to a revert war or some other very specific Wikipedia guideline that you feel was broken)... I in return will try to follow through with your request to discontinue bringing your editing history with anyone. (If you already feel that my concerns aren't justified then this shouldn't be a problem)


 * B. Since we are still bound to disagree on FYROM/Greece related matters (or make some inadvertent offensive remark), we should both feel free to politely discuss our disagreements on each others talk pages on a case-by-case basis without threats of blocking (and instead of all lumped together into a general character assassination).


 * Do you find these terms satisfactory? Crossthets (talk) 17:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Please
Stop mass-removing content from all these articles. The current version of these pages are the result of a long-standing consensus between several users. Please discuss any further changes in the future. If you continue you will be blocked. Khoikhoi 01:52, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I came across as aggressive, but your mass-removal on all those pages was very disruptive. Anyways, it's common practice on Wikipedia to mention relevant historical names in the intro, see Naming conventions (geographic names). Look at articles about places in Turkey, they all have the Greek name: Trabzon, Samsun, Kars, İznik, Sakarya River. We should be consistent on all articles and not make an exception simply for this one. Most European articles follow this practice as well, see Gdańsk, Volgograd, Meissen, Oradea, etc. The discussion took place in numerous places, and the general consensus was to mention the names and not delete them outright. Khoikhoi 02:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)