User talk:Crouch, Swale

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DoB
Hallo Crouch, you said "I'd also be fine if both users can contact me if they really do need to say something about/to the other.", so perhaps you could explain to DoB how to look for archived pages at the Wayback Machine / Internet Archive. They have today removed as "Dead links" from Great Bridge, West Midlands two files which can be found there: this and that. I'd have pointed it out helpfully on their talk page, but had better not right now. But if they don't know how to find archived files, they risk damaging the encyclopedia by removing other editors' work, or making it seem unsourced. Thanks for any help you can give. Pam D  17:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've done so. This is something I've pointed out before to another user, see User talk:109.144.23.87. I appreciate you're efforts in fixing problems with their work but if they're really unhappy with you on their talk page then it is probably a good idea to do this. If there are enough problems someone else will probably end up dealing with it, thanks. So yes the fact I've suggested a topic ban isn't necessarily an indication you're done anything wrong but rather to deal with a dispute that has been going on for a while.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I wonder whether it will make any difference. Pam  D  17:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * What's "the 500 threshold" which you mentioned to that IP? Pam  D  17:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * City Population seems to use the most recent estimate/census for this meaning that if a BUA had say a population of 512 in the 2020 estimate but only 493 in the 2021 census then when City Population updates to the 2021 census (which happened around November 2022) then it will disappear from City Population but may reappear if it goes over 500 in the 2022 estimate. Also if the definition for defining them changed a few months ago, see the "News" section for the United Kingdom then some may disappear. All that's normally important is that the URL worked at the time the content was added though I'd go further to say it may be fine if someone remembers the content of a URL which stopped working before being added to Wikipedia though this should probably be noted.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't see the context. Thanks. Pam  D  18:25, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that DoB understands that "contiguous" means "adjacent to", rather than "part of". There was something else recently, and this edit, as well as introducing a red link (by adding an unnecessary disambiguation: do they ever check their work?), changes the sense of the statement. What do you think?

They've also decided that Grassington is a village not a town, despite the text in the article which says it is a long-established market town although often referred to as a village. It has a Town Hall. I can see no mention of "village" on the parish council website. Most websites call it a town, or market town. I think it's too big a change to make on one editor's opinion: if DoB really thinks he knows better than every editor since August 2010, it would be better discussed on the talk page of the article. (And note that they themself had changed Grassington from village to town a few minutes earlier in another article.) Pam  D  19:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC) Note that the National Park is inconsistent (village, town), and other sites use town, though admittedly OS calls it a village. I hope someone else will have the page on their watchlist and pick this up ... but I'm losing faith in other people's watchlists, so many awful edits go uncorrected. (Not DoB's, but ones like the Elizabeth Gaskell mess). Pam D  20:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Found the other dubious "contiguous": here. Were previous editors wrong in saying that Great Bridge is in Tipton, or was DoB wrong in their change? There's no edit summary to explain. Pam  D  19:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

If edits like those to Bicknacre continue I'll feel tempted to go to ANI to ask for a topic ban on edits involving the convert template. This is pure accidental but avoidable damage to the encyclopedia through misunderstanding how the template works and failure to check after an edit that it has produced the intended effect. What can be done? My posting about Whitney-on-Wye, which set off the entire ANI thing, was on exactly this topic, and pointing out how to acheieve the desired "miles-first" effect, but was obviously ignored. CIR. Pam D  07:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Crouch, Swale, I don't believe we know each other, but since DragonofBatley said they have worked a lot with you before, and you rose to their defence at AN/I, a bit of a heads up ... I've spent some time fixing up the church article that was highlighted at AN/I by Esemgee, and it was very bad. They'd confused the old church with the 1823 replacement, entirely failed to make incoming links which would have led them to a list of Grade II listed buildings that provides a good referenced summary of the building, and in general made very poor use of the sources they did cite. I have the impression they fill out the infobox but then are stumped as to how to write prose. I looked at their other article creations at the time and it's a small group of very poor stubs on listed churches that desperately need extensive work plus again, integration into the encyclopaedia. (Personal aside: I avoid working on church articles. But it looks as if I have a duty to Wikipedia to fix these up because they are so poor. This is making me quite miserable. End of aside.) Then I saw what PamD has highlighted above, at Bicknacre. After all our attempts to explain how to do what the editor wants to do. I slept on whether to make a boomerang section of the AN/I, also re-raising their personalised responses to criticism. When I got up, I found they've responded to PamD and that made me aware of this talk page section. So, last-ditch ... can you throw any light on the back story here, such as past productive work in collaboration with you as they stated at AN/I, and whether their accusations about Esemgee in the AN/I refer to a previous dust-up? And more importantly, as someone close to them, can you offer them any specific advice that would help them understand what the problems are with their editing and how to avoid them? We've reached the last ditch here, I fear. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Yngvadottir, if I may chime in on your comment? I have Crouch, Swale talkpage on my watchlist to mostly discuss geography contributions and so. I wanted to chime in on your comment about Esemgee and my previous dust up with them? Well I can share with you a couple of incidences with them I had and so. I have no idea fully how to add links to them but I will do my best to share them. We clashed on Talk:Skegness over my removal of (outdated information which was years old and written in present tense) but I got a range of assumptions made and was told I was wrong. Quotes like "I agree with Noswall, the statistics should be in the article, it might be unhelpful to DragonofBatley but extremely helpful to others. Size of the settlement is irrelevant. Esemgee (talk) 09:39, 2 September 2021 (UTC)", "I am assuming nothing, I am stating a fact. It is you who need to take advice from editors like Noswall59 who have experience of writing good articles not me who needs to be "more on the fence". I think I have corrected your edits before now. Esemgee" and " I am also persona non grata so I now avoid him as I really can't be bothered anymore." Their tone and approach have caused me to clash with them and I rather spend my time talking with editors who can understand me and help me. Not go on a whim to destroy me at every turn and ignore the positives I have bought to this encyclopedia like the City of York, City of Peterborough, Borough of Blackpool, Borough of Middlesbrough, Accrington/Rossendale Built-up area, All Saints' Church, Batley and Jonathan Hellyer among other articles that never existed but they get overlooked for minor faults. All negatives and no positives from any editors but a few. So If I was able to briefly elaborate, hopefully I given you some grounds to see my point of view. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC) DragonofBatley (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, DragonofBatley. That saves some searching. (For reference, go to the history page for whatever talk page or article page you want to reference, click on either "prev" for a particular edit or the time-and-date stamp just to the right of it for the state of the page at a particular time, and copy the URL from your browser address bar. There's a "diff" template, but just copying the URLs woriks just as well. Or (especially if you can't use that method because you are on a mobile interface) go to either the talk page or its archive, as appropriate, then make a Wikilink adding the section title after "#". Like here, you would link to this section by User talk:Crouch, Swale ). Unfortunately, that earlier church article proves my point. It remains poorly formatted, with the footnote numbers appearing in the ref section instead of in the text, despite your having created it in December 2020. It's a Grade I listed building (!) - mentioned nowhere in the text. Your version didn't even include the National Heritage listing as a reference, from which I learn it's 15th-century with 13th-century bits. Other than "Built in 1485", our article doesn't say a single thing about the building in its text, and the infobox describes it simply as Gothic Revival. At least it's linked at the 2 lists of Grade I listed buildings in West Yorks. I appreciate your creating missing articles. But didn't you use "preview" to see how they displayed on the page? Why didn't you use the sources to describe the buildings in the body of the article? Why didn't you look for the official listing page, in this case at least? These things I do not understand. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

"I will (and I mean will) check and double check and quadruple check my edits", and yet their next mainspace edit is this. it:
 * Links to a disambiguation page (Great Northern Railway): so sad because there is a wonderful gadget which makes it easy to stop yourself from doing this, to which I alerted them just recently. They have chosen not to use that useful tool, trusting their own careful editing to avoid making this basic mistake.
 * Creates a broken sentence: "The station site has since been demolished and in the 1990's."
 * Slightly more subjectively: Adds some strange wording - "since" when? How can a "site" be demolished?

How can we help them to improve the encyclopedia rather than leaving a trail of dab links and garbled sentences? Pam D  07:49, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry I've been away for a few days, I've checked the above articles and it looks like the problems listed above have been fixed though I did also make some formatting fixes with Norcot to remove common nouns not part of the names.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 02:48, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing that; turns out to have been changed by Chris j wood in 2015! The AN/I section was closed and has now been archived, but I still have concerns. (And have 2 volumes of Pevsner on the way by interlibrary loan so I can fix the churches. Sad.png) I've noted a few others tweaking and fixing after DragonofBatley's edits. And I want to assure you that by posting here, I'm not implying any responsibility on your part at all. I guessed right, you have a life off-wiki Smile.png Yngvadottir (talk) 06:35, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Letting you know that I've been working on fixing up the articles on those poor churches. Unfortunately the revised version of the Buildings of England West Riding book split it into North and South right between Morley and Batley, and so while I have the Leeds/Bradford volume sitting beside me on interlibrary loan, I can't get access to the Sheffield volume either on Google Books or in the flesh, and given his repetitive vocabulary I was lucky to see a snippet of the description of All Saints', Batley in the 1959 unified volume. And the Historic England page has no information. The editors of Listed buildings in Batley appear to have full access to Pevsner and likely much else besides, so I probably just have to hope one or more of them work on improving the Batley churches. Yngvadottir (talk) 10:38, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You could perhaps move content from the listed buildings article to the articles on the individual churches with attribution like what I did with Draft:Plaish Hall.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Too much risk of perpetuating misunderstandings and other inaccuracies. As it is, I did lean a bit on the summary at All Saints' (including for key words to crack the snippet view), but the 1485 estimate, the 13th-century elements, and the 19th-century renovation are unsourced. I'm assuming good faith that they're there in Pevsner, but it's not uncommon for people to misread or misinterpret his heavily abbreviated listings (or for Pevsner to have something wrong; he attributes the east end of St Augustine's Church, Rugeley simply to "Pearson", and only lists one Pearson, who'd died by then; other sources specify his son). I looked for alternative sources but couldn't find any, which for a Grade I building is sad. Anyway, as I say, I really don't like to work on churches, so I mostly hope the collective further fixes these. Yngvadottir (talk) 11:40, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

City of Worcester article checks
Hi @Crouch, Swale, I recently created a new article for Worcestershire. The City of Worcester. Would you be able to check it out and tell me if it meets Wiki standards for seperation as I found two different population figures for both the main city and district as well as the urban area. . Thanks Crouch. DragonofBatley (talk) 19:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it does have similar boundaries to the settlement but it does contain 2 parishes and it did experience significant boundary changes in 1974 so yes I'd say splitting is marginally a good idea. Probably Redditch/Borough of Redditch would be be better candidate for splitting though.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:15, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for creating City of Coventry, I'll have a closer look this evening.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 09:33, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Careless editing continuing
This edit uses "compromised" where "comprised" was probably intended, and "composed" would have been correct. As well as linking two village names which are redirects back to this article. Quadruply checked? Pam D  10:57, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like those 2 issues have been fixed by you, the 1st is a small grammatical error which can easily be fixed and just moved on with unless the same grammatical error is happening frequently in which case it can be pointed out what the correct grammar is. The 2nd is a very minor problem, normally with parishes named "X and Y" we have articles on "X" and "Y" and I've made similar links only to check after linking and discover the title redirects back to the linked page and then removed the link. Is everything else fine?  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:17, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Of course I've fixed that rubbish, having spotted it. The rest of the article was quite a shambles, including longstanding duplicated nonsense by an IP! And it had links to the old census database, so I've fixed that. (And emailed the clerk to the parish council about a typo on their website while I was at it). Now the census data would be a really constructive project for someone: to go through the dead links to 2011 census and fix by using NOMIS2011. There are thousands. (Do we know whether ONS or NOMIS ever plan to provide the equivalent parish-level data for 2021, so that we can then embark on the project of updating every parish/settlement with some brand new NOMIS2021 template?)
 * The difference between "compromised" and "comprised" is not a "small grammatical error" but either carelessness or a bad spellchecker, and shows lack of checking (or, if checked and thought OK, then ignorance). The difference between "comprised" and "composed" is ignorance: there's an editor (User:Giraffedata) who is dedicated to chasing up and correcting abuse of "comprised", but they wouldn't have spotted this one because of the typo. On the links, as you say, you check after linking. Someone else obviously doesn't: why not? (There's a useful gadget I've got installed which colours links to show their status, so that those two leapt out at me as green shaded which shows a circular link: would be useful for other editors to install this too.) Pam  D  11:40, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Districts of Buckinghamshire?
As this seems to your speciality, perhaps you might advise? Bucks used to have five districts: MK, Aylesbury Vale, etc. First MK left and eventually became a UA. In 2020, all the remaining district councils were wound up and a single Buckinghamshire Council UA created. So here's the question: the word "district" still appears quite a lot in the Buckinghamshire article, typically to refer to the UAs. Is it really worth the effort to clear them out? Is the word significantly problematic? What would make it painful is that we don't have a word (AFAIK) to use for the area administered by a UA, as opposed to the UA itself. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:23, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the usage of the word "district" if fine though "unitary authority area" or "unitary district" may be better for clarity. Normally in the lead I use something like "Tring is a town and civil parish in the Buckinghamshire district, in the ceremonial county of Buckinghamshire, England" but indeed "unitary authority area" or "unitary district" may be better or perhaps (especially given we don't have Buckinghamshire (district) to just omit the unitary district and just say "Tring is a town and civil parish in the county of Buckinghamshire, England". So yes I don't think the word "district" is problematic, legally a unitary authority area is a non-metropolitan county as well as being a non-metropolitan district but I think most people who know/care about the difference between Buckinghamshire, the ceremonial county and Buckinghamshire, the unitary district will call the former a county and the latter a district. Per WP:UKNOWGOV even if we do use the word district for the unitary district we should include "ceremonial county" not just "county" for example "West Thurrock is a village and former civil parish in the Thurrock district, in the ceremonial county of Essex, England" rather than "West Tilbury is a village and former civil parish in the Thurrock district, in the county of Essex, England" which wouldn't make clear its only in the ceremonial county not administrative county and that Thurrock is an administrative county. For the likes of say Maldon we would say "Maldon is a town and civil parish in the Maldon district, in the county of Essex, England" not "Maldon is a town and civil parish in the Maldon district, in the ceremonial county of Essex, England" since that would suggest Maldon district was a unitary district.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:50, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Tyvm, that's helpful. I can leave it alone with a clear conscience.
 * I disagree though on the ceremonial county though. This is because the only Buckinghamshire that has legal existence is the ceremonial county and it is just irritating to readers to add a redundant qualification. The only time qualification is required is when, well, it is required: Slough is a town in Berkshire; before boundary changes in 1899 [or whatever] it was in Buckinghamshire (historic)
 * To illustrate, let's start with an easy one: Ampthill is a town in Bedfordshire, in the Mid-Bedfordshire district/UA. Easy because when Bedfordshire was divided, none of the parts retained the name. Nevertheless, Ampthill is unambiguously in Bedfordshire. Equally, Olney is a town in Buckinghamshire, in the City of Milton Keynes UA. And Tring is a town in Buckinghamshire, in the Buckinghamshire Council UA. The apparent repetition in the last case is an irritation but that's life. Local loyalties are complicated: I doubt that there are many people who say that they are from Middlesex rather than London but I wouldn't be so sure about Surrey and Essex. This is not about putting (arbitrarily defined) historic counties on a pedestal, just the geographic equivalent of WP:COMMONNAME. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:55, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions for further splits?
Hi @Crouch, Swale,.I am intending to take a break in the future but I'm just curious to discuss with you could the following settlements warrant own district articles?

Gosport Lincoln Nottingham Derby Southend on Sea Norwich Ipswich Oxford Gloucester And Cheltenham?

Just curious what you make of it

DragonofBatley (talk) 21:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Derby, Lincoln, Norwich and Nottingham have similar boundaries, are unparished and didn't have any major changes in 1974 so I'd probably stay away from then at least for now. Ipswich is similar but County Borough of Ipswich exists which should probably be moved to Borough of Ipswich as the district survived the 1974 changes. Gosport didn't have changes in 1974 and doesn't have parishes but does cover a significantly larger area than the settlement so I'd consider splitting.
 * Cheltenham, Gloucester, Oxford and Southend-on-Sea are partly parished, Cheltenham had boundary changes in 1974 but the other 3 didn't though they do now contain parishes, Gloucester because of a later boundary change and Oxford got 3 from boundary chages and 1 from the existing area. Juts like Ipswich with Southend the County Borough of Southend on Sea wasn't abolished so should probably be moved back to City of Southend-on-Sea at some point.
 * In terms of splits let's look at User:Crouch, Swale/District split where we can see 3 cases that probably at least should be seriously considered, namely Redditch, Gosport and Newcastle upon Tyne so let's look at splitting those ones first.
 * So what I would suggest is (1) go to the talk pages of Redditch, Gosport and Newcastle upon Tyne and post you're plans to split (or tag the articles with ) and wait 2 weeks to see if there are any objections or otherwise if there is a consensus and then split. The previous problems is you sometimes don't appear to understand the criteria we use for splitting/merging and you don't discuss on the talk page. If you discuss the 3 I have suggested you should have less problems with them being reverted or otherwise complained about, thanks.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk )  22:17, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Collages
The new collage at Wakefield strikes me as ugly, with 5 images, one of which occupies half the area. I can't find any guidelines on how to create collages, and this isn't technically covered by the current discussion, which is about infoboxes for ceremonial counties. There is nothing at Infobox UK place to suggest that using a collage is a good idea, so no guidance as to how to make one. How can we avoid such clunky collages? Pam D  06:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There is WP:MONTAGE, if its excessive we could just have 1 image instead of 5 but indeed perhaps further discussion is needed on this for the project in general as it would likely apply to all topics not just UK places.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , the other way is to use multiple image, see Milton Keynes for example. That does the collage automagically, allowing control over each component individually. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Made a change, agree the photos were ugly but this one has more vibrant colours. Think the skyline is the only drawback but the rest is really vibrant and light. Anyway I have done best I can to make them less clunky portrait and landscape but not gonna lie. Might change the cathedral photo as it is quite small and lacks quality DragonofBatley (talk) 15:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , the image selection for infoboxes can be very sensitive and taste is highly subjective. I strongly advise that you propose changes at the articles' talk pages first. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll do so now, made my changes just now before seeing your ping. So I will tag the relevant editors to the discussion. DragonofBatley (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Wendover
Is this place a town or a village? Thanks 92.239.240.153 (talk) 22:52, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 4
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Withypool, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Hawkridge.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:04, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

A beer for you!

 * Thanks, I've done a lot of work on Commons with pubs in the last few months. That said I don't drink alcohol so an imaginary ale will be fine.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:51, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I stopped some years ago. Was in a pub on Sunday for the London wiki meet-up, and had coffee. Edwardx (talk) 20:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Isaacs on the Quay
Hello, Crouch, Swale. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Isaacs on the Quay, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again&#32;or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Links to dab pages
If an editor, who has previously been told about the helpful gadget which highlights links to dab pages in orange, adds a link to a dab page, is alerted by a bot, and ignores that message, does it mean that they can't work out how to fix it, that they just don't care about the encyclopedia, or that they don't read their talk page? Meanwhile Kirklees still links to Castle Hill. Pam D  07:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)


 * On second thoughts, I've fixed this "quadruple checked" link, as I care enough about the encyclopedia. But I'm genuinely puzzled here. Editors should check al links they create. Then, the gadget means that if you even skim quickly through the edit you see the link in orange - though perhaps not on mobile. Thirdly, the talk page alert should have inspired a quick tidy-up. Pam  D  07:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hope @Crouch, Swale doesn't mind me chipping in here - seems is a nice, friendly editor! Links to DABs are a common mistake when one first starts editing. Received a few of the the Talk page DAB messages at first but fairly quickly learnt to check each Wikilink immediately after publishing and corrected any incorrect links post-haste. Now I normally check each link before publishing and a second time after publishing just in case an error slips through. Thanks to the very helpful message @PamD put on another editor's Talk page I now have the "orange" alerts activated as a further safeguard - this also identifies such errors while reading an article, allowing correction to be made. Rupples (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Its now possible so see links they added here. While it would be good for editors to avoid creating disambiguation links keep in mind that per the Editing policy things don't have to be perfect. That said due to the orange links and the fact its tagged "Disambiguation links added" in the page history it should be easy to avoid adding disambiguation links. Have you installed the orange links? see WP:DABDISPLAY.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk )  18:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, didn't know this was about me until now. Bit shocked I was being discussed without being tagged in. What orange links? I've gone back and fixed red links where possible or left them unlinked. Sorry Crouch, wasn't aware I was being discussed in all honesty. DragonofBatley (talk) 20:40, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * If you follow the instructions at WP:DABDISPLAY for changing you're preferences to show disambiguation links as orange so that when you pres "show preview" you can see if there are disambiguation links before you save changes.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 08:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Borough of Brighton
I hope to make a start on this later today or tomorrow, using my various book sources. Am I OK to move into article space from Draft:Borough of Brighton when I've done as much as I can, or shall I ping you first? Cheers, Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!) 10:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You can just do it, you don't need to ask me first, I've done what I can with it so once you're done just move it.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Music
And if yamla gets wind of this, he will rest the S.O. clock. I'm trying to be nice, but I have limits. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Question regarding council redirects
Hi, I hope you don’t mind the question on your talk.

I was just tagging redirects (e.g. Mid Suffolk District Council) with R with possibilities, as it would seem to me that such articles could (and possibly should[?]) become separate from the articles about the geographic area itself at some point. However, I then came across, which seems to suggest (if I’m reading it correctly) that separate articles for the local authorities should actually be avoided. As you’ve done some work in the topic area I’m therefore wondering if you’d mind helping me out with this subject. (Please feel free to disregard the question if you don’t feel comfortable answering.)

All the best, A smart kitten (talk) 12:45, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes they can be tagged with R with possibilities but when it comes down to district councils I'd generally avoid creating separate articles unless there is a need in terms of article size etc. Generally its best to cover the district an its council in 1 place. There is a major exception to this, when like Eastbourne a district is covered in a settlement or similar then an article like Eastbourne Borough Council should exist. When it comes to county councils like Essex County Council separate articles should exist. For London borough, metropolitan and unitary district councils I'd generally say they don't need separate articles but most exist. When parish councils if like Shrewsbury Town Council the place is large an article on the council may be appropriate but if like Elstree and Borehamwood Town Council its only the name of a parish similar to district councils generally we don't need separate articles on the council.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 12:55, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Isaacs on the Quay


Hello, Crouch, Swale. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Isaacs on the Quay".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 21:35, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Unparished areas in Northamptonshire


A tag has been placed on Category:Unparished areas in Northamptonshire indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗ plicit  12:12, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * There are no unparished areas in Northamptonshire anymore so it should be deleted.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 12:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

The Blackpool topic
Greetings - I noted you likely are much more of a stakeholder in the Blackpool article - I did make many bold and strident changes - and I documented them as such in the audit trail of the edits - I do apologize - all edits made in good faith.

Sadly, the reversion by @DragonofBatley deleted other more conservative edits - the sizing of the images is the most notably visual loss of quality by these wholesale resets.

As with most matters there is always a civil middle ground and sure - I have no interest in edit wars and I was crystal clear that I did think my edits - pushed the 'consensus boundaries' - but no one reacted negatively - until this day. There are sections in the articles talk section and there was arguably some degree of consensus.

I usually only focus on medical and science articles and there is less room for bombast and group think in such articles -

I did actually think the changes others made - size of images - should be reverted - but I am not getting directly involved.

Kind Regards, Dr. BeingObjective (talk) 18:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the thing we need to try to encourage DragonofBatley to think about is partial reverts so I'd perhaps suggest what changes should be retained on the talk page. I think the problem was with removing the ceremonial county but it would be better for DragonofBatley to just restore that rather than reverting the entire edit.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:28, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * One might ask - why my interest? - I recall many decades ago vacations in this town - my parents emigrated and now I am old and looking back to the past - too much time/nostalgia perhaps.
 * I do think this article could be improved upon - I sensed there was a broader initiative by other 'newer' editors - and perhaps should not have made the strident changes - clearly reversion is a click away - so I hope folks do not think I have any agenda - I was a tad shocked that anyone actually noticed - yup - WP Policy naive.
 * The image sizes, the 2021 census data, removal of CLOP, fewer but more robust citations - I cannot think anyone would be against such changes.
 * There has to be a middle ground - I did like the read on 'party conventions' - but most of this was not about a seaside town called Blackpool in England.
 * Many apologies - I certainly will not be directly editing this article again.
 * BeingObjective (talk) 18:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Unparished areas in Gloucestershire


A tag has been placed on Category:Unparished areas in Gloucestershire indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz Read! Talk! 21:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Mangotsfield added.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Tag restored, actually it is parished its just the unparished area hasn't been updated. Cheltenham and Gloucester districts are partly unparished but there isn't separate articles so its not really possible to add the category.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

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Arbitration motion regarding Ireland article names - required location of move discussions rescinded
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee, firefly  ( t · c ) 18:09, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I can see you've done the motion work and I'll do the other cleanup work with notices etc later this evening.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The blocked user,, states in , that you have agreed to monitor their future edits to ensure there are no further problems such as those seen here. Essentially, you would mentor them if unblocked. Is this accurate? --Yamla (talk) 18:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes I'm still happy to do that.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll update the UTRS ticket with your confirmation. --Yamla (talk) 18:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * And your mentee is now unblocked. Best -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Ireland naming template
Thank you for your note at TfD, but can you please respond to my concerns and my suggestion at Talk:Republic of Ireland. If you add that template to the page without gaining consensus first, I will remove it. Scolaire (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Cheltenham
Hi Crouch been a while. How you doing? Just wondering if you think Cheltenham might qualify for a split for both the borough and town because it contain three civil parishes and might qualify for splitting for one borough and the main settlement? What do you think? DragonofBatley (talk) 17:27, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would weakly support splitting but I'd say that you should discuss on the talk page before splitting as similar discussions have failed to reach consensus for splitting.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Commons cat on Listed buildings lists
Hi Crouch, hope you are keeping well. I see you’re re-adding the Commons cats here, Grade I listed buildings in England completed in the 20th century. Can I ask if there’s guidance/policy on this? I’ve not used them in the Welsh Lists I’ve done, since they drew some criticism at FLC. One editor compared them to having a tag saying “More text”! You’ll see it was discussed on the article Talkpage, and the consensus was they were rather “cluttery”, so I’ve deliberately taken them out. Obviously, if there’s a wider consensus to have them, or it’s policy to do so, I wouldn’t want to go against that. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This article is listed at WikiProject Historic sites/Missing commons category links for listed buildings in England so I think it is standard with EH listed building row.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:14, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Cote, West Sussex
Z1720 (talk) 00:03, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Missing Parishes Project
Hello, it's me, N1TH Music, I think it's high time I helped you work on the missing parishes project you've got going, but I forgot where to find the page which has the list of all the missing ones, could you please inform me, thanks. N1TH Music (talk) 22:41, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Crouch, Swale/Missing parishes.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 07:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Buckinghamshire
Hi Crouch, Swale hope your doing okay. Was just wondering without seemingly canvassing. Do you think Buckinghamshire has possible grounds for a unitary area article similar to Shropshire? DragonofBatley (talk) 19:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It might do but given this seems to have been discussed I'd suggest discussing this at Talk:Buckinghamshire. Personally I think we need to look at merging Buckinghamshire County Council to Buckinghamshire Council as although they are technically different legal entities they cover/covered the same area, have very similar names and have similar functions, the only difference is the newer also has the district functions.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Overthorpe
I really don't understand why you have recreated this article. An explanation of what a name means is not an indication of notability. Its just a part of Thornhill, not a separate place or even a civil parish. The reference can be transferred to the Thornhill article which could and should be expanded. What is it notable for? Esemgee (talk) 13:03, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There has been debate about notability, see the page history, you merged it with the reason "single-line unreferenced referenced stub, not edited for years" and it was restored with a PROD and then redirected again, I then restored it with a ref meaning you're merge reason no longer applied. I'm not sure if it qualifies for a separate article but given the history I'd suggest tagging it with Merge to and start a discussion.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 13:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * My reason was poor, its not notable, its an uncontroversial merge. If you think it's notable say why. Esemgee (talk) 13:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * But another user has already restored it with the reason "A 17 years old stub should not be redirected (removed) without consensus." and I also restored it with a source. That seems to make it controversial enough per WP:MERGEINIT. In terms of notability (1) it has a reliable source discussing its name history and (2) its an OS settlement which may qualify it as legally recognized.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 13:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The other user wanted to restore it to delete it. A name on a map does not make a place notable. I don't know where you got that idea. I don't think you understand notability. Esemgee (talk) 13:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 appeal declined
Hello Crouch, Swale. I'm informing you that per a rough consensus of Arbs, your 2024 restriction appeal has been declined. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 22:07, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Parishes
I've started an article on Leckhampton with Warden Hill, which you might like to elaborate on... in 2011 census it was only called Leckhampton, so I don't know whether it's expanded?

But here's another anomaly: Cheltenham says "The borough contains three civil parishes within its boundaries." (under "Neighbourhoods") but also "Four parishes—Swindon Village, Up Hatherley, Leckhampton and Prestbury—were added to the borough of Cheltenham from the borough of Tewkesbury in 1991." (under "Administrative history") and the L with WH parish council website says "Leckhampton with Warden Hill is one of only five parishes within Cheltenham Borough Council's area".

Sounds right up your street! Enjoy. Pam D  19:26, 9 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Pages 6 and 7 of this neighbourhood plan mention parish expansion. I leave it to you! Pam  D  19:29, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for creating it, I have added an infobox etc. It appears per UKBMD to have been renamed in 2019 however there is an Order in 2018 using the longer name but I'm unable to find any other sources for a rename so we'll probably just have to go with 2019 for the rename since as you say the 2011 census uses the shorter name.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Why bother adding a ref if it's already dead? You seem to have blindly copied the 2011 census figure, complete with a 2015 access-date, although we know the "neighbourhood statistics" refs are all dead. Surely if you add a ref you check that it works, and fix it if it doesn't? Or perhaps you don't, and the people who turned down your appeal know it. And although I gave you the source, above, you didn't mention that the area of the parish was increased susbtantially, not just a rename.
 * Ah well. I'll get back to the fun of WP:FEB24. There is now just one article left in the intersection of Category:All articles lacking sources and Category:Mountains and hills of the United Kingdom (down from either 52 or 62, I forget), and that's Axborough, the one I took to AfD. I'd always thought PetScan was something strange and technical but have now discovered how easy it is to run, to get intersections like that.  Pam  D  21:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that the URL template formats a URL better in an infobox. I've fixed it. Pam  D  21:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes the ref was moved from the other article with a 2015 access date which seems correct, when moving content from another Wikipedia article I think we would keep the access date for when the content was added to the other article even if the URL is today dead.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:07, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should add any reference without checking, ourself, that it supports the content, and updating to the date we have added it. You are responsible for references you add, and it doesn't make sense to add a reference which you already know doesn't work. Pam  D  12:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You talk about "when moving content from another Wikipedia article", but there are two possible scenarios:
 * # You copy text and refs from another article and acknowledge this with the proper copied template on talk page of both articles
 * # You add material yourself, with a reference which you may have found in another article but which you have verified for yourself.
 * Remember that we do not consider Wikipedia to be a reliable source, so you cannot just copy chunks of one article, or refs, into another article unless you have verified the content and the sources for yourself. "Access-date" means "date I have seen this material online and confirm that it supports the content I am using it to support". You should not be adding content to an article unless you have seen the source for yourself.  Pam  D  12:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This would fall under the 1st option and I attributed the content in my edit summary which seems to be enough given the content was minor though I admit I have moved larger amounts of content before and only used edit summaries when I could also have used the template.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it does readers, and your editing reputation, a diservice when you introduce material sourced to a dead link, especially when you know how to find a usable source instead. Copying a useless reference is pointless. Pam  D  18:49, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested moves
Can you explain on why you keep basing almost all of your RMs on pageviews almost solely? Searching also matters and Ngrams too! GabrielPenn4223 (talk) 23:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Pageviews are the main way of determining if something is primary by usage as it shows how many people read the relevant articles, obviously it doesn't show what terms people use to get there but if you have "Foo (film)" and "Foo (album)" and both get a similar number of views it probably shows they aren't primary by usage. The other things I commonly use are Google (main) which is also useful for usage but can be biased due to location, Images which tends to be less biased but can overly show PTMs (like Lincoln mainly shows Abraham Lincoln for example) and Books which can show long-term significance.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 08:25, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry for being combative, Someone had told me already that primary topic is defined by usage. GabrielPenn4223 (talk) 13:38, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Winding Wood, Berkshire


The article Winding Wood, Berkshire has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Cannot verify that it meets WP:NGEOGRAPHY. Online results mostly concern a vineyard; a cursory search on Google Maps points to a small forest, not a hamlet. Evidence of settlement is just one passing reference in a town council meeting to a 'residential burglary', while the county council results either speak of a wood being cleared or a road called Winding Wood. All this is insufficient evidence of human settlement or a notable wood."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 14:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi there - thanks for your message about my PROD of Government Colony High School. already at AFD though as a speedy keep but even still should probably go again not PROD. I am new to Wikipedia - so still discovering the best way to do things. Could you please explain your message and what I need to do? (I think you are saying that PROD is not appropriate and I ought to trigger abother AFD process. But I am not sure if that is what you are saying.  And I am not sure how to do it). Thanks - Newhaven lad — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newhaven lad (talk • contribs) 09:21, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes it was discussed at Articles for deletion/Government Colony High School so per WP:PRODNOM probably can't use PROD though it was closed as procedural keep its probably best to start a new AFD especially given schools have been controversial to delete anyway. You need to follow WP:AFDHOWTO and use 2nd to start a new AFD.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 09:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for such a quick reply - very helpful. I will follow your advice.  Best wishes Newhaven lad (talk) 09:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Declined R3
I've declined your R3 / replaced with a G4 request, as I don't believe the page qualifies for speedy deletion under either rationale. Capitalization changes at the beginning of words, or disambiguators, are not implausible typos. Regarding the RfD discussion linked, that's not particularly relevant given that this redirect was not included in that batch. To be clear, that batch of nominations cannot be used as the rationale for pages that were not included in that batch and I agree with @Jay's reversal of @JalenFolf changing the speedy deletion tag from the R3 that you applied to a G4. WP:RDAB is an essay and if you want this type of redirect to be eligible for speedy deletion then it needs to be proposed for inclusion under an existing or new criteria. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it does qualify as a recently created misnomer. As said on the talk page and RFD redirects from other capitalizations can be helpful if they are part of the title without the qualifier. There is no more reason to have a redirect at London (Disambiguation) than at Paris (Disambiguation), Jupiter (Disambiguation), Mercury (Disambiguation) or Manchester (Disambiguation) or any of the other 220,510 DAB pages. I agree G4 doesn't apply because the redirect wasn't nominated though it was discussed when (at that time) it didn't exist but I think R3 applies and the consensus there supports deleting and yes there hasn't been consensus to create a specific criteria for such redirects but the existing R3 can probably be used.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Words utilizing title case as opposed to sentence case do not quality for R3 as they are not implausible. You're welcome to bring this up on at WT:CSD, and I'd be glad to respect the result of a discussion with more experienced admins, but I don't see it fitting under any of our current deletion rationales without an expansion or more details being added to them. Note that this exact redirect (which was created after the discussion took place) was discussed with @Thryduulf at WT:CSD, who also thought that improperly capitalized disambiguators shouldn't be speedily deleted. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:32, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not immediately certain which redirect this discussion relates to, but "(Disambiguation)" is a plausible search term so definitely not speediable. I don't advocate creating them as a matter of routine, but if they are created that indicates someone found it useful and as there is no benefit at all to deletion, deleting them is a small net negative to the project. Something like "(DIsambiguation)" on the other hand is not a plausible and would be eligible for R3 (assuming the other requirements of that criterion are met). Thryduulf (talk) 19:49, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Thryduulf: It's regarding London (Disambiguation). I also agree with you regarding the examples, it's why I felt it important to mention title case in this context. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:55, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the discussion Hey man im josh is referring to is this one. As Uanfala noted in the RFD there is no particular reason these should be treated any differently to the other DABs and that miscapitalisations may be useful but even that is applicable to the specific part of the title, "Foo (bar)", and not the generic or technical portion, "Foo (bar)".  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 20:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Never the less, it doesn't fit the scope of any of our current CSD criterion, so I don't think debating it is particularly relevant here. If you want it included and to be CSD-able, then you need to make a proposal for such. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You can certainly argue that, but as I (and many others) disagree it's very clearly not something suitable for speedy deletion. From a reader's perspective there is no difference between using a different capitalisation to the one we have chosen (sometimes arbitrarily) in the "generic" and "technical" portions. The only other argument I recall seeing is that it makes things harder for some tools, but we should always alter our tools to deal with the encyclopaedia as it is rather than alter then encyclopaedia to make life easier for tool authors/maintainers (unless such changes are truly invisible to readers). Thryduulf (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * From a reader's prospective there is nothing different about London (Disambiguation) than Paris (Disambiguation) or Jupiter (Disambiguation). Also searching for "Jupiter (Disambiguation)" with the search box returns the correctly titled DAB page Jupiter (disambiguation). As a reader I find redirects from incorrect capitalizations annoying when they show up in the search suggestions instead of the correct version. From an editor's prospective these redirects are inconvenient. There is no reason to have a small number of redirects that are very unlikely to be useful to our readers due to the incorrect capitalization of Wikipedia qualifiers that the search corrects anyway so I can't see why we need them.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 20:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Then start a discussion at WT:CSD to include it under an existing or new rationale. Until then, it's not eligible for speedy deletion. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * From a reader perspective I don't care whether I arrive at the page I want directly or via a redirect. I do care that I arrive at a page inviting me to create an article and/or search instead of the page I wanted. Search suggestions are only available for a subset of the ways people look for Wikipedia content, and matching of different capitalisations is available for a different subset. Multiple search suggestions are absolutely trivial (but T24251 is a request for a way to manage these) in comparison as both will take you to the page you want to go to.
 * I agree that Paris (Disambiguation) etc is no different to London (Disambiguation), which is why I opposed deletion of the former and oppose deletion of the latter. Thryduulf (talk) 21:24, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If you think readers are likely to benefit from "(Disambiguation)" redirects then why don't you start a request to get a bot to create them all? Otherwise WP:PANDORA and WP:OTHERSTUFF are perfectly valid reasons for deletion. There is no reason that I can see that London (Disambiguation) would be useful but every other wouldn't be or don't need to exist. I know you have said something like you aren't interested in getting them created but if you think we should keep some we should do that for all as all DABs are the same and function in the same way so there is no merits to consider that are different about 1 redirect than all the others and Paris (Disambiguation) doesn't exist.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFF is almost never relevant - something else (not) existing is not a reason why a given page should (not) exist. WP:PANDORA is even less relevant as it's just WP:OTHERSTUFF with a side helping of WP:CYRSTAL. I also addressed this point in a previous message So yes, I agree that we should keep all the others that have been created and am arguing exactly that at Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 6. Thryduulf (talk) 21:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Eltham, New South Wales


Hello, Crouch, Swale. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Eltham".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 21:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"London (Disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=London_(Disambiguation)&redirect=no London (Disambiguation)] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Nickps (talk) 23:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Rothley and Chathill
Hi! Sorry to bother you ... is this just a simple C&P error or similar? Unless I am going mad, or it is another one with the same name, they're nowhere near each other. I have changed it to Rothley but please tell me if I am barking up the wrong tree here! Hope you are well, Cheers DBaK (talk) 22:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes it was a simple C&P error, thanks for fixing it.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Aha, brilliant, thanks! DBaK (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Unparished areas
I remind you of How to write about parishes#Unparished areas and of this discussion at User:Stortford's talk. In particular, please remember the words:
 * Unparished areas by definition are not administrative areas and do not have official names. Where abolished urban districts or boroughs within the same modern district adjoin, there is no "unparished area boundary" between them - for example whilst Dorking and Leatherhead were separate urban districts prior to 1974, both now form part of the single wider unparished area of the modern district of Mole Valley.
 * Care should be taken not to give the impression that there is an officially defined unparished area with the name and boundaries of the pre-1974 urban district or borough.

This issue has been explained several times. Please stop pretending, as you did with your edits at Ashtead and Ashford, Surrey yesterday, that the "unparished area of Leatherhead" and the "unparished area of Staines" exist or have existed. I very strongly suggest that you do not add any more information on unparished areas to the encyclopedia. Mertbiol (talk) 06:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The consensus was that unparished areas generally shouldn't be mentioned in the lead. Yes there may be no "formal" boundary but I thought the general rule was that such individual unparished areas should normally be mentioned even if they form part of a wider "unparished part" of a modern district. Unfortunately UKBMD has stopped listing the individual unparished areas but it still mentions the towns in the wider unparished areas. I'd note that with Ashtead it appears that it was part of Epsom Rural District from 1894 to 1933 and then Leatherhead Urban District from 1933 to 1974. The parish council was indeed abolished because it appears to have become an urban parish of Leatherhead UD but the parish appears to still have existed until 1974, at the least it appears to have existed in 1951 as there is still census data, see User talk:Stortford. We could rephrase it to something like "it became part of the unparished area of Leatherhead in Mole Valley" or use a similar format to Skegby. Note that "Ashtead" would not be an individual unparished area even though it appears to have been a parish until 1974 since as noted at Talk:Bulkington we don't normally use the urban parishes to define individual unparished areas.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 12:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No that is not what the consensus was. Again quoting from How to write about parishes#Unparished areas:
 * Unparished areas by definition are not administrative areas and do not have official names. Where abolished urban districts or boroughs within the same modern district adjoin, there is no "unparished area boundary" between them - for example whilst Dorking and Leatherhead were separate urban districts prior to 1974, both now form part of the single wider unparished area of the modern district of Mole Valley.
 * Care should be taken not to give the impression that there is an officially defined unparished area with the name and boundaries of the pre-1974 urban district or borough.
 * BMD was wrong when it listed "the individual unparished areas" - it has since improved the way that is displays this information (and it no longer supports Skinsmoke's interpretation that you seem determined to cling to - despite being told serveral times that this is wrong). The quote above makes it very clear that there is and was no such thing as the "unparished area of Leatherhead" - there is simply nothing to debate here. It really does seem that you do not understand what an unparished area is and (more importantly) what it is not. Please stop including information about named unparished areas in Wikipedia articles. Mertbiol (talk) 16:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Although the position of unparished areas being part of a wider district's unparished area was part of the proposal/consensus it doesn't seem like stating that they are part of the modern unparished area's district has ever been used by the proposer, see Special:Diff/1173644621. I don't think it was ever intended for us to simply say that such place is in the unparished area of "Mole Valley". Such a statement is arguably as meaningless as saying Beare Green is in the parished area of Mole Valley as opposed to saying its in the parish of Capel.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This is getting very tedious. You should not write "the unparished area of Leatherhead" and you should not write "the unparished area of Mole Valley". As you have put it, these statements are "meaningless". They are meaningless because unparished areas are not formally defined. They do not exist in their own right. As  has said "unparished areas - they are not things in their own right, but are rather the absence of other things". By trying to give these areas a name, you are making them sound official, when they are not. Mertbiol (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There was a consensus that unparished areas can still be discussed in articles though the guidance isn't clear about if this is only for the settlements that were districts or other settlements that are/were within them but indeed in Skegby the fact Sutton in Ashfield UD became unparished is discussed.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's take this step by step. Firstly, do you agree that UK BMD does not support the existence of a "Leatherhead unparished area" or the "unparished area of Leatherhead"? Yes or no? Mertbiol (talk) 17:36, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree it doesn't support this today but it used to namely when I set up the unparished categories. Unfortunately the Wayback Machine doesn't show it for Surrey Mid Eastern but it does for Gravesend, see here where it does make reference to the individual unparished areas. While I agree that the Local Government Act 1972 didn't explicitly create the unparished area of "Dorking" and the unparished area of "Leatherhead" it did abolish both district and didn't establish successor parishes so essentially as a result these areas are unparished.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A simple "yes" or "no" is all we need. What UK BMD did or didn't say in the past is irrelevant.
 * So to summarise, you agree that UK BMD does not support the existence of a "Leatherhead unparished area" or the "unparished area of Leatherhead".
 * Next question. Do you agree that this UK government order of 2009 does not support the existence of a "Leatherhead unparished area" or the "unparished area of Leatherhead"? Yes or no? Mertbiol (talk) 18:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No, I agree it doesn't.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Great. We both agree that the Leatherhead Urban District is a pre-1974 district that was abolished under the Local Government Act 1972, so I won't ask you to confirm this. You also agree that the same act did not create named unparished areas corresponding to the pre-1974 districts.
 * Do you agree that the wording "Care should be taken not to give the impression that there is an officially defined unparished area with the name and boundaries of the pre-1974 urban district or borough" in How to write about parishes#Unparished areas means that you should avoid introducing the concept of an "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area". Mertbiol (talk) 18:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with both points.
 * I'm not sure on this, indeed it suggests we should treat both Dorking and Leatherhead as a single unparished area. As I've noted I don't think that was the intention as the OP doesn't appear to have used this and instead as with Skegby made reference to the pre 1974 district being abolished and no successor parish being established and as such becoming an unparished area.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Great, so you agree with both points - and it is wrong to write "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area" in an article.
 * The Skegby article does not explicitly say the "unparished area of Sutton in Ashfield", so it is not directly relevant to the point that I am making here. In my opinion, the wording in the Skegby article is in conflict with How to write about parishes#Unparished areas and should be changed. (Although made a small edit to this article at the end of last year, he may not have noticed this wording.)
 * Do you now agree that you must not use the phrases "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area" in an article? Yes or no? Mertbiol (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The wording of the Skegby article does arguably conflict with the guidance but I don't think the consensus was not to do this, the consensus was that they don't belong in the lead and that we need to be careful about how we word things. I think rather we may need to reword the guidance, I don't think there was a consensus to remove unparished areas completely from articles just from the leads and to be careful about how we word things.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't want to talk any more about the Skegby article - it's a distraction from the main conversation here. We can return to it later.
 * Again, yes or no - do you agree that you must not use the phrases "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area" in an article? Mertbiol (talk) 19:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think that was intended, just not in the lead.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, so we need to go back a step. You have already agreed that the 1972 act "did not create named unparished areas corresponding to the pre-1974 districts". Do you agree that writing "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area" in an article gives "the impression that there is an officially defined unparished area with the name and boundaries of the pre-1974 urban district or borough"? Mertbiol (talk) 19:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree, as I said the "Dorking" and "Leatherhead" unparished areas resulted from the districts being abolished and no successor parish. I agree the way I wrote it may well give that impression and the way Skegby was changed to avoids this. When I've added the information on former parishes normally I add the population at the most recent census and when the parish was abolished and where it went to. With areas that ended up in unparished areas I tend to just put the individual unparished area but I agree this may suggest it has an official name/boundary so it may be better to state that the urban district the parish was in was abolished and no successor parish was formed.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Great. So do you now agree that you must not use the phrases "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area" in an article? Mertbiol (talk) 00:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Saying that Leatherhead district had no successor parish and became unparished seems acceptable though.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 09:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Before we talk about an alternative wording, I need a yes or no answer to the question.
 * Do you now agree that you must not use the phrases "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area" in an article? Yes or no? Mertbiol (talk) 10:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:16, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Fantastic! Let's think now about Skegby. It's good that this article does not explicitly mention the "unparished area of Sutton in Ashfield". This is the final sentence of the relevant paragraph, which says: "No successor parish was created for the former urban district and so it became an unparished area." The problem comes with the second half, which could be read (as you have already noted) that there is or was such a thing as the "unparished area of Sutton in Ashfield", when in fact it should simply indicate that Skegby is not part of a civil parish. Thinking more broadly now. I would be happy for you to use the following wording in similar articles:
 * "In 1951 (or whatever the last census available is), the Civil Parish of X had a population of 9876.[Vision of Britain] Y Urban District was abolished in 1974 to become part of the new district/borough of Z. No successor parish was created for the former urban district and Settlement X became part of an unparished area.[UK BMD]"

Are you happy with this proposed wording? If not, what would you change it to? Mertbiol (talk) 10:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the current wording is preferable, it seems like a reasonable compromise to saying its in Sutton in Ashfield unparished area so I'd suggest to leave it as is.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Again we go back a step. Do you agree that there is no such thing as the "Sutton in Ashfield unparished area"? Yes or no? Mertbiol (talk) 10:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Not an "official" one but one that resulted from the abolition. As noted the person who proposed the changes wrote this so it doesn't appear it was the intention to remove individual unparished areas completely just to be careful about how we word it which the current wording does seem to.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The official unparished area is the one we need to be concerned with. We can't invent our own unparished areas or use unoffical definitions. As the guidance says (and we have discussed above) "Care should be taken not to give the impression that there is an officially defined unparished area with the name and boundaries of the pre-1974 urban district or borough." Do you agree that we need should use official definitions only as defined by UK government legislation - yes or no. Mertbiol (talk) 10:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The accepted definition for unparished areas does appear to be the pre 1974 UD. I agree we need to be careful about how we word it but stating that a former UD became an unparished area doesn't seem against the guidance. As noted UKBMD did formerly lists such individual unparished areas. I think we need to be careful about how we word things that don't have official definitions but I don't think its prohibited to use such things as long as we be careful about how we word things.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This is just wrong: "The accepted definition for unparished areas does appear to be the pre 1974 UD." This is also wrong: "stating that a former UD became an unparished area doesn't seem against the guidance."
 * We are beginning to go round in circles here - you are rowing back on the very clear yes/no answers which you gave earlier in this discussion. I think the thing to do now is to ask for 's input into the specific wording on the Skegby article. I will leave a note on his talk page later today and will invite you to join that discussion. In the meantime, I am grateful to you for agreeing that you will not use the wording "unparished area of [pre-1974 district]" or "[pre-1974 district] unparished area" in articles. Mertbiol (talk) 11:21, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

After allowing a little time to pass, I just need to tidy up a loose end or two from our discussions earlier this weekend. With the input of both and, the Skegby article has been improved. We now have a good paragraph that describes the abolition of the relevant civil parish, without diving off into original research. I expect you to use this form of words in articles (adapted as appropriate with no mention of unparished areas whatsoever) going forwards.

I would note that the consensus is further from your own position than the compromise paragraph that I proposed above there is a lesson in there for you, but I doubt very much that you will learn it.

I'm sure that you will respond to this message by protesting how you still feel that some of Skinsmoke's ideas are justified. But I am not interested. We have been over this ground several times and I will not be commenting further. I regard this matter as closed.

I recall writing to you: "there is a limit to how much time can be given to assist one person before good will and patience starts to wear out... [you give] the impression that your focus is on yourself rather than the project and those others who volunteer here.... You have over the years taken up a deal of my time..." I know exactly how he feels. Mertbiol (talk) 15:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The discussion and guidance does say "It may be appropriate to mention in a governance section on the pages for those settlements that they are now an unparished area, but this information is best presented alongside discussion on the current administrative arrangements for that settlement. Care should be taken not to give the impression that there is an officially defined unparished area with the name and boundaries of the pre-1974 urban district or borough. As such, it is best not to mention unparished areas in the lead.". Yes stating such a settlement is now in the unparished area of X gives the impression that there is an "official" unparished area but given Stortford made mention of Sutton in Ashfield district having no successor parish and becoming an unparished area. Yes I understand how Stortford put it gives less of the impression of an "official" unparished area than the way I was putting it but as mentioned it doesn't seem there was a consensus/the intention was to not mention them at all. You appear to be saying that they suddenly shouldn't be mentioned despite the guidance apparently saying they can though as mentioned its not clear if that refers to the likes of Sutton-in-Ashfield or other places in the former UD like Skegby. I will however not add anymore mentions of unparished areas until we get consensus on this though.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Sharlston Hall
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Requested move for Twitter article

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You have been tagged to this conversation because you may have previously participated in similar discussions and there has been a notable development. Please consider sharing your views. 𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓔𝓭𝓾𝓬𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓐𝓾𝓭𝓲𝓽𝓸𝓻 06:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Stressed out
Hi, thank you for your contributions. I note your recent edit to Stressed out. Why do you believe that the lowercase term should redirect to Stressed Out (disambiguation)? Every topic on that dabpage is titled "Stressed Out" with both capital letters. 162 etc. (talk) 19:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Because there seems to have been concern at the discussions at Talk:Stressed Out about Psychological stress though its only listed in the "See also" it is linked directly in the hatnote at Stressed Out which also suggests it is a plausible target. It seems there is consensus that the song is primary for the upper case version but not for the lower case version. However I'm not sure if "Psychological stress" is really a likely search term even for lower case so it might be worth a RFD which I can start if you want.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:12, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason for Stressed Out and Stressed out to arrive at different articles. Should an RFD be opened, I would be in favour of making the lowercase a primary redirect to the article at Stressed Out as an R from lowercase.  At Talk:Stressed Out, the consensus at RM was to make the song the primary topic; I don't see any consensus (or any discussion at all) concerning a different target for Stressed out. 162 etc. (talk) 19:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 9 2600:1003:B13A:6AA9:0:1:3400:CF01 (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Sharlston Hall


Hello, Crouch, Swale. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or draft page you started, "Sharlston Hall".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 20:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

St Blaise
Former? It's still on the Cornwall Council map. DuncanHill (talk) 17:04, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Scrub that, I got confused between St Blazey and St Blaise, they both sound the same in my head! DuncanHill (talk) 17:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)