User talk:Cullen328/Archive 41

Cullen's Most Recent Comments To User Cable Hut About Jean Jepson Draft and Vancouver Dance Community
Hi again Jim,

Thanks again for your comments. They are once again very helpful in identifying for me the things that Wikipedia does and does not do. I also have a good understanding and appreciation now too of your policies, regulations, standards, etc.

I am now going to respond briefly to your comments.

1. About notability you said that " Although I have not looked into the matter in great detail, I will accept for the sake of discussion that Jean Jepson is notable. The tribute event that you mention can be included only if it was covered in reliable, independent sources." My response is that the story of Jean Jepson and the early Vancouver Dance Community is notable to a specific interest group, namely the community of dance lovers, and in particular to the Vancouver dance community. Is this story notable to non-dance lovers. No, not at all.

At the public tribute event held last year there were two shows and the total audience was about 500 people. I had the opportunity to speak to many of the guests because they wanted to see the pictures and stories in the scrapbook that I was displaying. Everyone who looked at the scrapbook very interested in the stories.

You say that mention can be included only if it was covered in reliable independent sources. The tribute event is mentioned in the scrapbook which is an independent reliable source, namely me. This event was presented and produced by the West Coast Tap Collective (the association of Tap Dance studios and organizations in the Vancouver area). I am not part of that organization. I was an objective witness and I wrote down exactly what took place.

2. About the photo you said that " Wide distribution and recollections of the wishes of the subject of a photo have nothing whatsoever to do with whether a photo is acceptable for use on Wikipedia. That type of argument is unpersuasive to experienced editors. All images used on Wikipedia must comply with our strict image use policies. There are no exceptions to those policies. "

The photo image that I have posted in the draft is not a copyright item. It is the kind of photo that people take every day and share widely every day. It seems to me that your arguments above are legal protections for copyright items.

I am a dancer and I do a lot of public dancing and people very frequently take photos and videos of me while I am dancing and then post them widely on social media. This is all done freely, no questions asked and no objections made. It seems to me that the sharing of Jean's photos is identical to the sharing of my photos. I do a lot of performing in the arts and we take great delight in sharing our photos as widely as possible.

3.Regarding the scope you said " You can rewrite your draft as you see fit. However, you are moving from the difficult task of writing a biography of one notable dancer/choreographer to the vastly more difficult task of writing a broad historical article. Personally, I do not think that is a good idea, but the decision is yours. "

This idea to broaden the scope beyond Jean Jepson and include other notable figures came from discussions with you and your colleagues. It was not my original intent but it seemed like a very good idea. But this detailed work has already been done and is fully detailed in the scrapbook. The purpose of the article would be to summarize and present a very brief history and then point readers to the scrapbook for further details.

4. ISBN numbers. This item is fully settled.

5. Regarding providing page numbers with ALL references you suggested that " It should always be possible to include the page numbers, and you can include a complex page number field like "pages 9, 11, 15-17, 34-39, 62, 81-94". If you rely on two sources, use two references. An unpublished scrap book is not a reliable source and should not be used on Wikipedia. If you want to point people to additional sources, then these must be published reliable sources with professional editorial control. "

It seems to be that your suggestions are very well suited for "Academic" type articles. However the article that I want to publish is of a completely different type. It would probably fall under the heading of "Popular Culture" or something like that. When I was in university pursuing undergraduate and graduate studies of course we had to provide detailed footnotes, reference sources, age numbers, etc. Modern Popular Culture s completely different world. I have shown the scrapbook to many people, and all the reference sources are listed in there. Not a single person ever even looked at the sources. They were only interested in the pictures and the accompanying text.

6. Regarding your concluding comments " Your concluding remark indicates that you may not fully understand Wikipedia's purpose. We are not a place for publishing original research about a historical topic. It is not Wikipedia's role to capture, organize and write down that history. That should be done through writing and publishing newspaper, magazine and historical journal articles, and books by respected publishers. Wikipedia summarizes what is already published. We do not publish fresh research. Excitement of interested people is fine, but excitement is no substitute for compliance with our policies and guidelines. "

Some of the project team members and I did conduct some original research. We interviewed dancer, dance teachers, and dance historians who were knowledgeable of the early years and individuals of the Vancouver Dance Community. Their contributions have been summarized in the scrapbook. I was merely trying to use Wikipedia to summarize some of the more interesting aspects of the story and to use it as a gateway to the more detailed story contained in the scrapbook.

My discussions with you were very refreshing Jim and I kept an open mind and I have benefited from the perspectives that you offered. I am going to ask the same of you on one point. You mention above the link between Wikipedia and "publishing newspaper, magazine and historical journal articles, and books by respected publishers". Scrapbooks of course do not have any place in your world but for what we are trying to do, which is to tell this story, it is working out quite well. Scrapbooks are an old-fashioned tradition and it seems that it still is a terrific way to show and tell people an interesting story. We (the project team) were not trying to publish a story but we found that in doing our research that we had amassed quite a bit of valuable knowledge of the Vancouver dance history, much of it previously widely dispersed and unable to be found in online searches. So we simply wanted to organize it and share it with all interested dance lovers.

My last comment is about the "Excitement of interested people is fine, but excitement is no substitute for compliance with our policies and guidelines." These archivists are excited because they can appreciate the value of adding the stories in the scrapbook to the National Archives Collection. I thought that this would clearly demonstrate the "notability" of this story. It seems to me that their endorsement validates all the work that we have done.

Well those are all the comments that I have to make about the Jean Jepson Draft Article. I do have an observation to share with you about some of the Wikipedia pages that I researched in doing this project. I looked up several dancers, teachers, choreographers on Wikipedia and some of these people did have pages. Many of the pages that came up however, although they have complied with your policies, criteria, standards, etc. seem to be woefully lacking in substance and interest. After having read them it seemed to me that I learned very little. I also followed some of their internal (i.e. other Wikipedia pages) external links and the same thing happened frequently. Nothing useful at the other end. So yes they complied fully with the rules and regulations but they seemed to be of very little or no value whatsoever.

Jim I have made a decision that I am going to withdraw my article and use other online sources to inform interested parties of this story. It seems that Wikipedia is not the ideal place for a project like mine.

Thank you very much for all your help and time.

Peter CableHut (talk) 07:15, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello . If you are not going to be writing a Wikipedia article, then I am not sure why you bothered with the point by point comments. If you change your mind and want to write a Wikipedia article which complies with our policies and guidelines, then please let me know. Until then,  I wish you well. Cullen328   Let's discuss it  08:02, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Jean Jepson Project Feedback
Hello Jim,

Just responding to your last comment "Hello CableHut. If you are not going to be writing a Wikipedia article, then I am not sure why you bothered with the point by point comments. If you change your mind and want to write a Wikipedia article which complies with our policies and guidelines, then please let me know. Until then, I wish you well."

I responded point by point because we have been having a detailed discussion involving different but valid points of view and I wanted to provide some feedback for the decision. I did not want to just walk away without any explanation.

Wikipedia has its own way of doing things with a strong focus on policies and guidelines that seem to exclude a lot of other possibilities. I have a vibrant story to tell about one of the creative arts and those Wikipedia rules and regulations seem to strip it of its vibrancy. I am not asking Wikipedia to reconsider or to change anything about the way it operates. Wikipedia has its own way of doing things. Initially I thought that Wikipedia would be an ideal way to attract interested parties to the story but it has not turned out that way.

That's all. Cheers! CableHut (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

an article to save at afd
You're good at ones like this, I think. I believe it's a very substantial organization. Could you possibly take a look? -- do ncr  am  20:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Circumcision and HIV prevention
With all due respect, you may not be highly informed on this area. I have a PhD in epidemiology, am an HIV specialist, and I can tell you that the scientific evidence is rock solid. Stronger than global warming because it is based on large randomized controlled trials. Please read the section on Circumcision where the evidence is well described. Given the fact that the article on Unicirc is about a surgical instrument, the editor who added the comment should take it up with that author, not the Unicirc section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 17:43, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Our article Circumcision summarizes the situation in this fashion, :


 * "The positions of the world's major medical organizations range from considering elective circumcision of babies and children as having no benefit and significant risks to having a modest health benefit that outweighs small risks. No major medical organization recommends either universal circumcision for all males (aside from the recommendations of the World Health Organization (WHO) for areas with high rates of HIV), or banning the procedure."


 * That backs my contention that there is no solid consensus regarding the general desirability of male infant circumcision. While I respect your expertise, please be aware that your role as a Wikipedia editor is to neutrally summarize what the full range of reliable sources say about a topic. Thank you. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  18:44, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Gosh, I agree entirely about infant circumcision and Unicirc has nothing to do with infant circumcision. We are talking about adult circumcision on sub-Saharan Africa to prevent HIV transmission.

Do you have medical editors? PLease review Circumcision and HIV
 * I have read the article you wrote and it fails to make clear that this device is for adult use only, . As a matter of fact,  it compares it to a device commonly used for infant circumcision. How is the reader supposed to know that this is a device for adult use only? So that is a significant shortcoming in the current version of this article, in my view.


 * Of course we have editors who specialize in working on articles about medical topics. Perhaps best known is a Canadian physician, James Heilman, whose user name is . Cullen328  Let's discuss it  19:53, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I am assuming that the discussion is complete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 20:08, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * What edit are we discussing? I unfortunately do not have the internet needed to do much. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:54, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . I noticed that you were traveling in the Philippines, and I hope you are having a great time. Sorry to ping you during your vacation. This is a conversation that started at The Teahouse and the thread is "Circumcision denialism 'intactivism'". The article in question is Unicirc, and talk page comments enter into it. A factor in the conversation is that is self citing in the article,  which isn't always a bad thing but tends to raise concerns among experienced editors. I did not raise that issue but another editor did. Your comments would be appreciated, if you have the time and OK internet access. Thanks. Cullen328   Let's discuss it  03:02, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
 * We need to use high quality secondary sources to support medical claims per WP:MEDRS. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:27, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
 * That is the first thing I said at the Teahouse, . Cullen328  Let's discuss it  03:35, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Agreed 100% and they all are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 11:28, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

FYI from James: We have excellent studies supporting the us of circumcision for the prevention of HIV/AIDS in Africa. If you notice a place on Wikipedia that says differently please notify me. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:25, 9 February 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs)

Pictures for Draft: New England Regional Art Museum

 * Hi Jim, thanks for your guidance on my draft article. Please let me know whether I should be replying on the Talk tab to that page, or here where I've clicked the Let's discuss it.


 * I've made the changes both you and 'Gronk Oz' suggested to the text article. About the photos, you asked:" As for the written permissions for use of photographs, do these people know that any image uploaded to Wikimedia Commons can be re-used by anyone for any purpose what so ever, including commercial purposes? Have they released their work under a specific Creative Commons license? If so, which license?. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:30, 8 January 2017 (UTC)"


 * I have three sources of pictures and permissions: (1) the Museum itself, which has given me permission to use specific low-res images from its web site, because it is aware of issues of re-use, (2) the Director of the Museum who has taken one photo himself that I want to use, and (3) an art photographer maybe occcassionally-commercial photographer retired from paid employment in a different profession. All have given written email permission without specifying which type of Commons license, though as I said the museum is clearly aware of re-use issues which is why it is giving access to low-res images.


 * I have emailed each of them with your feedback and a link to Commons licenses. Do I have to lodge/post copies of their permission (as well as copies of the images) in the Wikimedia Commons? Do I have to make a formal request somewhere or is my TeaHouse question a sufficient starting point?


 * Thanks very much for your kind help. Dirrigeree (talk) 06:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . The first thing that you should understand is that Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons are two separate but related projects. Each project has separate administrators and separate policies and guidelines. My expertise (such as it is) is as a Wikipedia editor though I do donate a few images to the other project from time to time. So, for precise and accurate answers,  please ask at the help desk at Commons. In general,  I will say that each individual image or media file uploaded there must be either properly licensed in writing,  or free of copyright. Informal,  generic "licenses" are not acceptable. Only the copyright holder can license an image. The easiest way is for the copyright holder themself to upload the image, releasing it properly at that time. The release can be done by a signed document but that must be legally correct and is a slower process. The museum cannot give "you" the right to use the images. They must release the images to the entire world for anyone including you to use as they see fit, for any purpose at all. The museum director should upload that image. Ideally,  the art photographer should do the same. All of them must understand how expansive the terms of the license are. I hope this helps. Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  07:09, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi Jim, following your earlier help I am now looking for help to promote the much-revised text, and recently posted the following request on the talk tab to the draft page. I've also sent this message to a reviewer who helped me, Gronk Oz. Excuse my lack of knowledge of how or where to ask that this be done, but I have had no response from either approach and don't know where to turn. Are you willing and able to be the editor that promotes it to Wikipedia?:


 * "Looking for help from a Wikipedia editor; this article has been developed with the advice and assistance of several Wikipedia editors over many months and I believe is ready for Wikipedia. I have worked with a photographer who has put some photos of the Museum into Wikimedia Commons to allow me to use them in the article. I would like to add the image at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:I._New_England_Regional_Art_Museum_(NERAM).jpg to the article. It can be labelled <New England Regional Art Museum>. Can an editor please help with both adding the image and promoting the article if you agree it is ready. Thanks.--Dirrigeree (talk) 21:04, 6 February 2017 (UTC)" Dirrigeree (talk) 22:18, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Rafael Díez de la Cortina y Olaeta
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Rafael Díez de la Cortina y Olaeta. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Content expertise
I would like to offer you some feeback and I hope you can accept in the constructive manner that it is intended. None of us are subject matter experts in every area. If we are out of our area of expertise, it is best for us to fall back "I don't know" and send the query to someone who does, rather than wing it. Sincerely, Peter Millard — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersmillard (talk • contribs) 19:19, 13 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry for butting in here. Wouldn't you say that sending the query to someone with more expertise, is exactly what Jim (Cullen328) did at 7:53pm five days ago? (still visible above)


 * Here on Wikipedia we are all generalists, but some of us know more, and some less, about which specialists to consult. And we all have to make decisions based on the style and type of interaction, sometimes. Do you think this is an approach that works? Or do you think that it is deeply flawed? MPS1992 (talk) 19:54, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . Let's discuss some facts: You came to the Teahouse with a question, which is a place to get general advice about Wikipedia editing procedures. The Teahouse is not a place to get expert advice from editors specializing in medical topics.  In my very first response to you, I informed you about WP:MEDRS which was useful information for you in your disagreement with the other editor. I also informed you about the requirements of the neutral point of view, which is a core Wikipedia content policy. You then came here to my talk page and one of the things you asked was if we had editors specializing in medical topics. I immediately referred you to  and I noticed that you then engaged him in conversation. Here are a few more facts: I have never made a single solitary edit to any article having to do with circumcision and I doubt that I ever will. To the best of my recollection,  I have only made a single edit to a medical article in my 7-1/2 years of editing, and I discussed that edit with Doc James in advance. All the information that I provided you was accurate,  useful and in full compliance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Now,  let me tell you a few other things: Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. I will edit any article I choose to edit, at any time, for any reason, entirely at my own discretion.  Subject matter expertise has never been required to edit Wikipedia and never will be. The only thing that is required to edit any article is compliance with our policies and guidelines. I have done major editing on many topics where I have a certain level of expertise. I have also edited articles on topics that I knew absolutely nothing about until I decided to edit. But before editing,  I read high quality reliable sources about those topics and then did my very best to summarize those sources accurately. That is precisely what encyclopedists do. I am a generalist encyclopedia editor, and I will edit any article I damn well please. I hope that I have been clear. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  04:36, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Bay Area WikiSalon invitation for February 22
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Please comment on Talk:Tomas Gorny
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Tomas Gorny. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

More background on How_to_resolve_disputes_regarding_proper_editorial_discussion_guidelines.
Jim, Since you asked, the article which I think diverges from "the truth as defined by the net of all reliable sources" is deflategate. I have considerable expertise in the topic and a past history of successful, enduring edits on it.

I'd kind of gone dormant because wikipedia blocked the range of IP's that included my home due to some IP user very badly and repeatedly misbaving, limiting my work to public places (which aren't handy around here). That finally go fixed, although I didn't know it when I started the below.

This go-around I went bold on a significant change: highlighting "scientific consensus" that the data exonerated the Patriots, backed by the New York Times, Washington Post, Yahoo Sports, a signed statement from 21 scientists from 10 universities across the country, embedded in a (regrettably) a Huffington Post URL, although the same content is in other sources. There's also a supportive 60 minutes Sports segment. The Washington post indicates having verified that if there are dissenting opinions, they are hard to find.

A couple folks weighed in with their view that exoneration is preposterous and guilt is a no-brainer (except to biased folksP). The references were reverted out, rather than refined or clarified.

I'm okay with the idea that, even though the sources claimed "consensus", that in wikipedia, "scientific consensus" should have a special, more rigorous meaning. So I was amenable to an indication of informal consensus, or majority opinion, or just saying that major nationally recognized non-Patriots-area reliable sources claim most scientists agree that the data exonerates. But alas,that was shot down.

Then things got surreal. Eventually someone even claimed that a statement the editor found disagreeable in the Washington Post article means that the article comes across as biased (apparently in favor of the Washignton Redskins rival (the Patriots), and apparently biased against the opinion that most Washington Post readers in their core market likely believed and wanted to believe. Calling the New York Times article "biased" is even more odd given the New England Patriots/New York Jets rivalry and that the Times first published a scathing "Science works against the Patriots" article before later completely reversing that view in a new article.

Even more nonsensical, the editor even indicated that the sources above are not qualified as a respected minority (fringe theory) or even more amazingly, that they aren't even qualified as evidence that some people annoyed at the NFL might think like the Times, Post, Yahoo and others think. That also means the editor presumes nearly nobody believes the Times, Post, or Yahoo Sports.

Any attempt at an orderly discussion seems to lead to opinions offered without citation (and in one case original work regarding the application of PV=nRT that not only disagrees with the scientists but also even the NFL's position). That "teachable moment" met with a "to time, TR;DR, wall-of-text" kind of response. Result: the whole discussion gets declared a rathole.

An orderly presentation of ideas is blocked because, as the editor points out, editors watch thousands of pages and don't have time do more than just check sources. If they'd done only that, my bold edit would have stood.

Having been shown that responding to non-source-policy based discussion leads to rat holes, I took up the process issue with an editor, who didn't enter into a process discussion or clarification and didn't budge. The editor suggested ANI and I shared a possible draft of it. The editor suggested I'd get hammered in the ANI but wouldn't explain to me why, but as you can see, I think I've figured it out.

I'm very concerned with the USA becoming unable to tell fact from nonsense. I've been on that kick in various ways for years. I'd hoped wikipedia was the solution, whereas reddit is not. The official processes seem designed such that Wikipedia should be, but the reality seems to be falling short -- criticisms that wikipedia is opinion seem justified if this the defacto process is so different than the stated one. If Wikipedia can reliable deliver clarity to topics of some controversy, it's not the solution to the worlds problem with digesting facts.

Seems that this is a good test case. Can you, or someone else you can refer me to, invest the time to sort it out, and maybe help me craft an essay that helps people avoid the apparent misperceptions about policy?Rob Young in New Hampshire (talk) 04:16, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello, . I believe that other editors have advised you to read and heed WP:TLDR and I endorse that recommendation. It is astonishing to me that you would think that a twelve paragraph post is a good way to begin a conversation. Emulate Hemingway. Two succinct paragraphs max.


 * I have zero interest in deflategate. If I could assign a negative number, I would. My interest is in promoting NPOV encyclopedia editing.  It appears to me that you are pushing a point of view,  which is not cool for a Wikipedia editor. I suggest that you move on to another topic where you are not so emotionally invested. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  07:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

RIP my Teahouse response
Hey Cullen-- I think you accidentally removed my reply when responding to a recent Teahouse question. I'm going to place it back in, if that's OK. <b style="font-family:Garamond; color:green">I JethroBT</b> drop me a line 18:46, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Of course, . Sorry,  I have no idea how I did that.  <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  18:54, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I think I have an idea-- the software in the Teahouse that allows folks to make a response in using the pop-up window may not produce an edit conflict when someone else is editing, so I suspect that you never saw my response at all! <b style="font-family:Garamond; color:green">I JethroBT</b> drop me a line 19:00, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
 * , if you knew how little I understand the back office technical issues,  you would be shocked. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  19:06, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Bay Area WikiSalon February reminder
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Dorothy Kilgallen article
Hi Jim, and thanks for the response. I agree with what you said. Guy's rather heated response tells me I struck a nerve regarding this article. But I would never purposely put "junk" into the article. I have not read any of Shaw's books. I read a 2007 Midwest Today article by Sara Jordan that I cited as my source, which is corroborated by the video-taped interviews of the various persons connected with the case, including the hair-dresser that found Dorothy's body. This is considered to be credible evidence in a court of law. And it is clearly relevant to the article. I have no affiliation whatsoever with Mark Shaw. But what sets his latest book apart from the others is the video-taped evidence. From my review of Wikipedia's definition of "reliable, published sources", my cited source was clearly "published". And I saw no reason to doubt its reliability because it was corroborated by the said video-taped evidence. So I did not breach any Wikipedia policy. As for "fringe" content, that cannot apply here, because there is credible supporting evidence.

In the future, I will consult the history page before making edits. That was a procedural error on my part. But perhaps a better approach for potentially controversial articles would be to not allow any direct editing, but rather to use a submission process for proposed edits. Regardless, I am hesitant to make future edits to any article. I feel I have been denied my "voice". There's no way that every word of my edits was in violation of Wikipedia policy. And yet every word was summarily deleted. That seems to be putting one extreme policy in place of another. I am respectful of your duty to protect the integrity of Wikipedia. But in my opinion the article is misleading as to the circumstances of her death, such that the reader is not properly informed. Thanks for listening. TubesUntil (talk) 11:36, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * TubesUntil. I don't think anyone is suggesting bad faith in your edits. The problem is that this article has been the target of a lot of WP:PROFRINGE editing over the years. For a long time it was a WP:COATRACK for these nutty conspiracy theories and the cleanup was a bear. The resulting talk page battles ... er discussions, were incredibly long and a monumental time sink. Almost all of that was the result of a single PROFRINGE editor who fought tooth and nail against the purging of the fringe stuff. So if GUY sounds like he is a bit tired of this it's probably because this really has been a pain in the @$$ that just won't go away. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . Reverting is a standard quality control measure on Wikipedia and I suspect that almost all active and productive editors revert frequently. Talk page discussion should follow,  and I see that you began that conversation. Good. I have a question for you: How did you learn about the Midwest Today article and why do you think that publication is a reliable source? I have started a conversation at Talk: Dorothy Kilgallen about my concerns about the reliability of this magazine. Let's continue this conversation there. Thank you, , for responding when I was too busy with work obligations to do so. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  05:09, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Ty Law
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Your feedback matters: Final reminder to take the global Wikimedia survey
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Thank you for the feedback
Dear Jim Thank you for you much appreciated feedback on the article I'm trying to get approved on Peter Mylonas...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Peter_Mylonas. I hope you don't mind me asking, (as I'm still a little confused).. You said that "Your draft claims that his father played "a prominent role model in his son's life and an avid supporter of his life-long karate journey", but who says that praise is true?" but when I read other articles, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gichin_Funakoshi, also a karate person, it states that Funakoshi "introduced karate to the Japanese mainland in 1922"...How do we know this is also true? There's no reference? Another example is the article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%8Dgen_Yamaguchi that states " He was one of the most well-known karate-dō masters from Japan and he founded the International Karate-dō Gōjū Kai Association.[5]" but the reference goes back to his own Wikipedia page, so not very reliable. These are only two of many examples I have come across while doing research for the page I wish to publish on Mylonas. Ive been told that "That is not the neutral language of an encyclopedia article" and that words like "avid" and "leading karate expert" are not objective, however in other people's posts, I have come across sweeping statements such as "avid poet" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gichin_Funakoshi) - again no reference, "He was one of the most well-known karate-dō masters" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%8Dgen_Yamaguchi), "He alone was primarily responsible for the spread of Gōjū-ryū throughout the world" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%8Dgen_Yamaguchi), "he found that Karate was not strong compared to Judo," (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiji_Soeno), "He helped Bruce Lee gain national attention" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Parker). These are just a few examples. Again, my apologies for questioning you, but I'd really like to understand this issue. Thanking you in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HoundDog17 (talk • contribs) 01:01, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . You ask a very good question which I will do my best to answer. At the moment I begin my reply, Wikipedia has 5,345,290 English language articles and I estimate that well over a million of them have serious problems. Experienced editors are constantly at work to either improve these problematic articles or to delete them if they are hopeless. One thing that I can assure you it that very few experienced editors will be inclined to accept a new mediocre, non-compliant article just because we have other mediocre,  non-compliant articles. Instead,  we want to encourage you and other new editors to write articles of good quality that fully comply with our core content policies. Articles that we can all be proud of.


 * So, my advice to you is to revise your draft so that it is properly referenced and is written from the neutral point of view. Once you have done that and your article is accepted into the encyclopedia, go back to those other articles you mentioned above and fix them up as well. Thank you. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  02:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I took a look at Gichin Funakoshi and the most glaring shortcoming that I see is that the article relies excessively on Funakoshi's own writings. That article goes back to 2005 when our standards were much lower. It would take a motivated editor with knowledge of karate and the Japanese language to bring that article up to a significantly higher standard. Please note that the article has a C rating. I suggest that you model the articles that you write on Good articles and Featured articles which have undergone extensive review by experienced editors. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  02:22, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Here is a newspaper article that verifies the relationship between Ed Parker and Bruce Lee. Feel free to add it to Parker's biography. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  02:28, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

hey thanks but please review the article and tell me what to do
Hi there, thanks for the quick reply on Teahouse and as you said to start a discussion, help me out to create a article that meets the wikipedia standards. thanks! TripuraKnowledge (talk) 03:32, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . The article in question has been deleted so I cannot review it. You must recreate your article in full compliance with the instructions in Your first article. Please read that carefully. You said that there were many newspaper articles about this police officer. Summarize them neutrally and reference them properly. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  03:48, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – March 2017
News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2017).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Amortias • Deckiller • BU Rob13
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Ronnotel • Islander • Chamal N • Isomorphic • Keeper76 • Lord Voldemort • Shereth • Bdesham • Pjacobi

Guideline and policy news
 * A recent RfC has redefined how articles on schools are evaluated at AfD. Specifically, secondary schools are not presumed to be notable simply because they exist.
 * AfDs that receive little participation should now be closed like an expired proposed deletion, following a deletion process RfC.
 * Defender, HakanIST, Matiia and Sjoerddebruin are our newest stewards, following the 2017 steward elections.
 * The 2017 appointees for the Ombudsman commission are Góngora, Krd, Lankiveil, Richwales and Vogone. They will serve for approximately 1 year.

Technical news
 * A recent query shows that only 16% of administrators on the English Wikipedia have enabled two-factor authentication. If you haven't already enabled it please consider doing so.
 * Cookie blocks should be deployed to the English Wikipedia soon. This will extend the current autoblock system by setting a cookie for each block, which will then autoblock the user after they switch accounts under a new IP.
 * A bot will now automatically place a protection template on protected pages when admins forget to do so.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Richard B. Spencer
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Richard B. Spencer. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

your advice on wikipedia teahouse.
dear jim, i thank you for giving me the information for my question ''ask my question. '' But i tried it it didnt work. Can you please gimme a link to this page ? Thank you once again..
 * ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordanben (talk • contribs) 03:28, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . I gave you a link to an essay called Your first article. Let me know if you have any other questions. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  04:42, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Sebastian Gorka
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Sebastian Gorka. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Your edits on Yeshivat Shaare Torah
Shalom, Thank you for your edits on Yeshivat Shaare Torah. In respect of them I withdrew my nomination for deletion and find the article does now teach me something as opposed to before. → (talk to me!) (contributions) 03:31, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you, . Please keep in mind that articles should be deleted (or kept) based on a serious analysis of the notability of the topic, with improvement of the encyclopedia always being foremost in our minds. The state of the article at a particular point in time is irrelevant to that analysis. Articles can always be expanded,  improved and referenced. That is our primary job as editors. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  04:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Martin Indyk
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Martin Indyk. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Nitronic
Added an article that needs completed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitronic which has now been marked for speedy deletion? It does not look like promotion, it is clarifying a tradename that is mentioned in another article. Contributor1972 (talk) 05:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Nitronic does not belong in the encyclopedia, . It is unreferenced and fails to show notability. I suggest that you copy that content to a user page because it will almost certainly be deleted from main space. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  05:29, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, I have saved a copy to sandbox. The encyclopedia already references it, but it's use is without trademark. I had no idea it would flag a work in progress so quickly. I finished a stub a few days ago and it went right in with just one reference.Contributor1972 (talk) 05:35, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * , you should not put a COI disclosure in the body of a main space encyclopedia article. Instead, post that on the article talk page, or your user page, or both.
 * As for stubs with one reference, you are drawing attention to yourself with New Page Patrollers, and I do not think this is a good practice. I never add an article without at least three or four solid properly formatted references. Please read referencing for beginners. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  06:07, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your patience. Added references for the information now in composition table. Hopefully that is enough to have it qualify to not be deleted and maybe for [Category:Named Alloys]. Contributor1972 (talk) 06:25, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Well I think Nitronic is all I want it to be now. Added more book references for notability. I thought it would make a good addition to the Category of Named alloys, unless that is an unapproved Category. If the article it is deleted, should I ask on AK Steel page to add the content there? I'd hate to have spent all this time on something that would just end up in the digital trash.Contributor1972 (talk) 17:59, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * , you need to do several things regarding Nitronic. Read that big pink box at the top carefully and click the button to contest the speedy deletion. Then, format your references properly as explained at Referencing for beginners. Also, remove the capitalization and large text that makes it look like you are promoting a brand name. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  18:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I see that you have contested the speedy deletion. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  18:23, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Normalized the display of name. Added new content and cited as well as I could.Contributor1972 (talk)

Jim, Thank you for your edits (and time). I had not realized there was a template for citations. It made it almost easy after learning the format it wanted. I should probably look at the draft Corporate citations to see how bad those look now. On a side note, I looked at editing from a phone today. Kudos to you - You deserve a Barnstar for editing by phone!Contributor1972 (talk) 23:22, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes. There is a lesson here, and that is that no amount of self-persuasion by a conflict of interest editor is a substitute for real work by a real neutral editor. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hey, I resemble that remark. I've learned a bit this weekend: Go slower and don't post in public till its finished and been reviewed. Cite well and often. The Ops really do know you're a noob at editing. I think I would have been better off not trying to create a distance, but edit/create without spam. Thanks for the assistance Jim, your wording was on spot. One correction I would say is I think you meant Gall-Tough Plus is similar to Nitronic (same chemistries). Maybe I'll fix it when I have more time again.

One question though, how come Electralloy got the extra best citation I've ever seen? Am I in conflict again, or is it just jealousy? rhetorical Contributor1972 (talk) 03:33, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
 * , thanks for your friendly remarks. I have enjoyed helping with the article. As for the Gall-Plus mention, I was repeating what the source I cited said, and they did not use the word "Tough". As for Electralloy, I was searching for a general Nitronic information page from the manufacturer and I found more stuff on AK's European website than on their U.S. website. A little more Googling led to Electralloy. That seemed valuable information to include, and if they are a competitor of your company, I apologize. The neutral point of view requires it.


 * By the way, you show every sign of having the ability and the attitude to become a productive Wikipedia editor. I hope that you will stick around. Welcome to Wikipedia! <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  03:57, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Joe Scarborough
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Joe Scarborough. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Your invitation: Bay Area WikiSalon series at Noisebridge
Please join us in San Francisco!



The last Wednesday evening of every month, wiki enthusiasts gather at Bay Area WikiSalon to collaborate, mingle, and learn about new projects and ideas. This month we are meeting at Noisebridge makerspace/hackerspace in the Mission near 16th Street BART (temporary change of venue). The good news is this means that you can bring spontaneous guests if you forget to RSVP!

We allow time for informal conversation and working on articles. Newcomers and experienced wiki users are encouraged to attend. Free Wi-Fi is available so bring your editing devices. We will have beverages (including beer and wine) plus light snacks. If possible, please RSVP as it helps us figure out how much food and drink to bring in. For further details and to RSVP, please see: Wikipedia:Bay Area WikiSalon, March 2017 See you soon! Co-coordinators and  (Subscribe/Unsubscribe to this talk page notice here) | MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:06, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Notability review
I've created a page in my sandbox. I feel it is impartial and balanced. I have talked about the pros/cons of publishing this. I have not added logo or images, as I wasn't sure it would be accepted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Contributor1972/sandbox Just a review for now if you please. Contributor1972 (talk) 01:35, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . Start by reading Notability (organizations and companies). My first reaction is not positive. A Wikipedia article should summarize what reliable, independent sources say about the topic. How is a reader supposed to verify that the claims in your draft are true? In its current form, your draft is unreferenced although you include URLs to three local newspaper articles. These articles show every sign of being the result of company promotional efforts and are the sort of routine coverage of local businesses that newspapers everywhere publish. Certainly, small businesses can be notable and I have written a few such articles myself. But I think that you will need to produce evidence of significant coverage in several reliable sources, especially those of national or at least regional circulation. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  02:12, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the review. I was hoping the local liberal paper of the CNHI group would be enough. Alas, even though they were not paid directly some information was provided, but editorially we had no say in the direction it went with the information. Similar to discussions about what could happen to Wiki a bio over time. I will attempt to find more coverage, but national or regional coverage without having a press release will be even more difficult.

I'll work on citation placement and finding more sources. Does each fact require a citation? I see so many articles that do not have citations, or if there is one - it is corporate in nature. Most would be considered spam by other people. Is there anything I need to do with the sandbox, to keep it from being used?Contributor1972 (talk) 02:39, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * , yes, we have well over five million English language articles and many of them have shortcomings. Experienced editors work every day to either improve or delete these substandard articles. Spam content should be deleted on sight. Policy does not require a reference for every fact, but our best practice is to provide at least one reference per paragraph which backs the content of that paragraph. Every direct quote requires a reference, and any controversial assertion requires a reference. As for your own sandbox, no one will mess with a legitimate draft article under development, unless its content violates our core policies. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  02:51, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Added a few new sources with varied origins. I think it is at 12 sources now. Please review Corporate Bio Talk page about Notability.  Contributor <sup style="color:#707">1972   Discuss with me  21:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

You're 65?


Good man. Do you think there would be merit in creating a "senior Wikipedians" project or caucus or whatever? Given the age range here, I think anyone over 40 might qualify. OK, maybe 55, the AARP age. Coretheapple (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, strictly speaking, . I will not be 65 for a few more days. I run across a lot of "older" editors, and have the hunch that highly active editors as a group are older than what cliches lead us to believe. I am not sure if there are benefits to starting such a group, but am not opposed to the idea either. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  15:20, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Of course, emotional maturity is another matter., who may be known to you, has self-disclosed not being a callow youth as well. Coretheapple (talk) 15:25, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm tempted to give Grouchos' reply to the Friars Club...[Variant:] "Please accept my resignation. I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member". But...as long as there are no monthly dues I might be persuaded to join other "silverbacks". <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black"> Talk  21:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the discounts alone make old age worthwhile. That and the alternative. Coretheapple (talk) 21:56, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Egad, can we get discounts on Depends? I'm an oldie but goodie myself. John from Idegon (talk) 22:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * My biggest problem is my rocking chair which forces me to only be able to edit as it rocks forward. But....the one advantage is that I have time to think about what I am typing on the back swing. I guess every cloud has a silver lining.  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black"> Talk  23:02, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * That is a charming mental image,, and I hope that you do not rock on the tails of any dogs or cats as you edit. So, please either correct a typo or add encyclopedic content with every rock forward. Do you also edit while you sit on the front porch, playing checkers? Is the Readers Digest a reliable source? Is Lawrence Welk ready for Featured article review? <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  00:44, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think such an informal grouping could be useful in exchanging discounts and also in dealing with the elephant in the room, which is memory lapses. For instance, I frequently say to myself "why did I start editing Wikipedia?" I can't recall. Or perhaps that is more of an existential question. Coretheapple (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Many (more) years! -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Donald Trump
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Donald Trump. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you very much, . This means a lot to me, because I am being tough on you, for the benefit of the encyclopedia. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  05:06, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Reminder: Tonight is Bay Area WikiSalon at Noisebridge
Please join us in San Francisco!



Details and to RSVP: Wikipedia:Bay Area WikiSalon, March 2017 (optional, but helpful for food and special needs accommodations)

We are meeting at Noisebridge makerspace/hackerspace (temporary venue change) near 16th ST BART in SF.

See you soon! Co-coordinators and  (Subscribe/Unsubscribe to this talk page notice here) | MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:52, 29 March 2017 (UTC)