User talk:Cwo2mdfay

Regarding edits to Michael D. Fay
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Your recent edits
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Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Let's wait for Mark Arsten
The good thing about this is that I have no idea who you are, so I can start with a totally neutral position. I would prefer, infinitely prefer, to work from the deleted article, which is why I have asked Mark to userfy it for me, but I can, if necessary, research you.

When it comes to sources, some things may surprise you. You have mentioned some retirement papers, for example. Apart from counselling you to keep private information well away from the internet and possible pubic gaze, these papers will be a Primary Source, and thus of no real use in an article. Please read at leisure WP:RS, where you will see that we need articles in decent quality media about items for articles that are more than a passing mention. We also ned them to be more than (for example) regurgitated press release material.

Let's wait for and his reply to my suggestion before getting overenthusiastic. He's a decent chap and a good admin here and I appreciate his potential thoughts on the matter before moving forward. There is, I hope, no hurry. Even if there is I will not rush.

By the way, we use ~ to sign our posts on talk pages. They transform automagically to our signature Fiddle   Faddle  12:56, 28 November 2013 (UTC)


 * As you will see from Mark's talk page, I've done the essential work to allow, in my opinion, the article's return to main namespace. Now look, let's be hugely clear: You need to stand WAY back from it. I get that you're a tough bloke who takes no nonsense from anyone, but let the Wikipedia folks have free reign to edit it. Left alone they'll do a really great job. It may take them a while, but, once someone gets their teeth into it, they'll race ahead with it and do a far better job that I can. I've just added all the references that seem reasonable to get the article fit (in my view) to go back to where it ought to be. Mark made the right call to delete it in August. There were no references worth a thing then. Now, with your list, not all of which I have been able to use, it stands a great chance.
 * So stand away. Read WP:COI and see how to contribute to the talk page and ask for edits. Read WP:OWN and see that it is ABOUT you, not Your Article. It isn't my article either. I just did a very fast editing job on it. Fiddle   Faddle  01:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I've done another slug of work on the article. The more I read about your career the more I am in awe. Kudos to you, sir. I had no interest in this sphere before I happened on your problem, and now I have a further interest. It seems that combat art works in the written word, too. I was interested to find that you had been the subject of a protest group. It seems they mistook the art of war for the glorification of it. Did they understand more after the event?
 * I think the article will be back in the real world quite soon. Fiddle   Faddle  11:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your steady advice. I would like something to appear about The Joe Bonham Project, something I'm particularly proud of. I should also tell you that my current project is a WWI fictional historic novella about a British soldier in the trenches of WWI...The Boy Who Drew Soldiers. My main character is a member of The Artists Rifles, a territorial unit of the British Army, also known as the 28th Battalion of the County of London. Thank you for you assist on this. I hope someone will do a solid job.

Here are some not so easy links to articles (with audio) on my combat experiences: http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?7600-Combat-Illustrator-Draws-On-Marine-Life&s=e93fda60f86c6061dfa84524efa5ea71 http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/steelcurtain2 http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/article/eyewitness-combat-firefight-new-ubaydi-iraq The last article was written by Colonel Richard Camp USMC (retired), a military author of note in his own right.


 * I've already managed to get the Joe Bonham Project in there. I may research it and see if I can work an article up about it. The novella sounds interesting. How will you handle the very English slang of the time and the trenches? What part of the UK does your hero come from?
 * With the advice, rather like you have a reputation for, I speak as I find. I have some skill in getting Wikipedia articles to stick. The thing we all have to learn very fast is to FATHER an article, not to mother it. IT has to get out into the wild and scrape its own knees. We can be there to hand out bandaids, but we don't go in for wrapping it is warm towels :)
 * Getting it back into the main namespace is something we will leave to Mark. As the admin who deleted it and the man who is working with us, his is the green flag we need. So all we both need, the more so since I suspect he is enjoying the US festivities at present, is oodles of patience. He may also have some suggestions for further enhancement before it can go live again. We'll get there.
 * I'll look at those new references now. Fiddle   Faddle  16:14, 29 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, those references in detail:
 * http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?7600-Combat-Illustrator-Draws-On-Marine-Life&s=e93fda60f86c6061dfa84524efa5ea71 is great, but the rules prevent its use. It's a forum, and forums fails the [[WP:RS}} rule.
 * http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/steelcurtain2 is not actually representing anythingh in the article as it stands at present. I can;t see how I can use it well here
 * http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/article/eyewitness-combat-firefight-new-ubaydi-iraq is, thankfully, outside my experience. Real men doing really dangerous and selfless jobs in grave danger is not my thing. The jounralist uin me wants to use it. The WIkipedia editor in me is finding it hard to find a place. It's an amazing piece. I'll think harder about it.
 * Is this place complex or what? Now, what have you got to give me references for awards, honurs and decorations? Fiddle   Faddle  16:25, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I can provide a screen shot of my awards page on a personal records 'official site' called Marine On Line. We can find a way, I can also provide you a scan of my official discharge, which the American military calls a DD214. It lists all my awards and I can redact my more personal information, such as social security number, etc. These DD214s can be requested by anyone, and the military blacks this information out.

Here's a live link for the Pentagon Channel documentary on combat artists. At the very beginning you see one of my drawings and hear my voice. The actual bit about me is towards the end. http://www.dvidshub.net/video/154268/recon-combat-artists#.UpoJAN3PY9A

In short order I'm going to provide you with better links for some of the dead links. Please standby.Cwo2mdfay (talk) 16:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC) The Story with Dick Gordon APM: http://www.thestory.org/stories/combat-artist-13008

Radio Open Source with Christopher Lydon: http://www.radioopensource.org/combat-art/

The Colonel Robert D. Heinl, Jr. Award-Marine Corps Heritage Foundation http://www.marineheritage.org/Awards_2013.asp

United States Marine Corps Combat Correspondents Association Merit Awards http://www.usmccca.org/archives/2667

Joe Bonham Project and participants and fellow artists
I am working up a stub article in my userspace at present. My advice on COI stands for this article, too, and I will put it live soon after Mark allows the article on you into the wild. But it made me think.

This cyrstalised as a project for you, since you have no COI. Please consider whether the other artists, those you have served with and those who are part of JBP, are sufficiently notable for an article on them. If you believe that they are, please read this essay which will help you with a basic toolbox of skills, and then get to work in a subpage of your user id. I suggest, simply because you are inexperienced in the ways of Wikipedia, you deploy userspace draft at the head, and then use the 'Submit' process to let other eyes look at it and put it live.

I suggest this process because, while you are a cracking good artist, you are not yet skilled in Wikipedia, and it gives you the best probability of articles going live well. Its pretty much the same as learning to draw, paint or sculpt. We all make schoolboy errors at the start. This way means you get teachers! Fiddle  Faddle  17:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Three of the artists, Kristopher J. Battles, Victor Juhasz and Robert Bates are already listed on the Wikipedia 'War Artist' site with citations. I've have mentored all of them and they speak of me in multiple articles.

As to my story, the location for my main character's childhood (after being orphaned-it is a 'hero's tale') is a small fictional village in Hertfordshire, along the rail-line between St.Albans and Luton, very near a place called Nomansland Common. The name of the fictional village is Ferry Vale. Perception, both of words and reality, are major theme in the arch of the narrative. The main character becomes a scout/sniper (the Artists Rifles essentially authored the British Army's WWI manual on sniping and scouting.) I will leave it to you to discern what the actual name of the village is. I'm weaving into the narrative the art and writing of Eileen Soper, and her father George. George was in the Artists Rifles, and Eileen was famous for her book "When Badgers Wake." They lived and worked in Hertfordshire. The badgers, for the main character are both analogous to the Germans and the source of his basic stalking and observational skills. I understand there is again quite a controversy in England again about badgers. The chalky soil of Hertfordshire is the same as Flanders, and the early tribe that originally settled Hertfordshire came from Belgium. I hope to visit the area sometime in the coming year. I've had several Brits read the sample chapters, and they think I've hit a fairly good note on generic "British." Karen Curry, with whom I just curated an exhibit of The Joe Bonham Project, was NBC News bureau chief in London for about a decade, and she also said my use of the King's English was spot on. If you are interested, I would be more than happy to share some of the chapters for your critique. I've done a ton of research (reading every trench memoir I can get my hands on) on the patois of the Tommies of WWI. I've also read a remarkable book from the late 1870s, called 'The Gamekeeper at Home', which is helping set up part of the back story. On a final note, the story actually starts with the Royal Marine detachment on Ascension Island...which is another incredible remarkable story.


 * Your story sounds interesting indeed. I either read for pleasure or as a critic. I prefer, infinitely prefer, reading for pleasure, because I can then get into the atmosphere instead of looking at technical writing issues. When reading as a critic I get involved with POV and usage of adverbs, and I miss out on the story. I think I'd prefer to know when it hits the book stores :)
 * Ah, badgers. Cows gave badgers tuberculosis. Badgers then pass it back to cows. We seem to want to eradicate TB by eradicating badgers, but badgers are a protected species and must not be harmed. So we should vaccinate cattle. Or do that to badgers. But if vaccinated, cattle can still be carriers (Typhoid Mary) and thus humans get TB from milk. In all this there are no winners.
 * We have friends in Hertfordshire. It's a very productive county for horticulture. IT used to be almost covered by glasshouses, and many derelict ones remain
 * Back to WP. The stub on the JBP is up. I could do with some citations in reliable sources to link all the relevant artists to it. You could have a go in their articles at linking in JBP with citations at that end. Fiddle   Faddle  00:08, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Here are links to several other Joe Bonham Project artists and related: Roman Genn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Genn Steve Mumford  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mumford Fred Harper http://www.fredharper.com/ Ray Alma  http://www.rayalma.com/ Jess Ruliffson  http://jessruliffson.com/home.html Jeffrey Fisher http://www.rileyillustration.com/artists?artist=jeffrey-fisher

Related: We have purchased permissions from the Royal College of Surgeons to use several Tonks' reproductions of his pastels of wounded and recovering Tommies. Tonks is a major inspiration for the project. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Tonks  There is a wonderful academic article called 'Flesh Poems'   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3158130/

Another inspiration is the Russian artist Gennady Dobrov http://www.lifeartworks.com/gennady-dobrov-tragedy-war-drawings/

Here's an excellent talk by Victor Juhasz for a TEDx presentation...he talks about combat art and The Joe Bonham Project http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxScottAFB-Victor-Juhasz-Illu


 * I'm going to copy this message to the JBP talk page as a resource for editors :) Fiddle   Faddle  13:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)