User talk:Cwobeel/Archives/2015/September

The Signpost: 02 September 2015

 * Read this Signpost in full
 * Single-page
 * Unsubscribe
 * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:John Connally
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:John Connally. Legobot (talk) 00:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Mizrahi Jews
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Mizrahi Jews. Legobot (talk) 00:01, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

I am being accused of tendentious editing
Please see HERE. As far as I know, I am following all Wikipedia procedures.VictoriaGraysonTalk 18:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The Signpost: 09 September 2015

 * Read this Signpost in full
 * Single-page
 * Unsubscribe
 * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thank you for the barnstar for the work on Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action! I appreciate it. (I haven't looked at that article in about 10 days or so, because I've been traveling, but I plan on going back soon ... particularly with the fast-moving developments). Neutralitytalk 18:38, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * . You deserved it. Look forward to more detailed edits to that article. It is an historical event, with far reaching consequences.-  Cwobeel   (talk)  22:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Lists of mathematicians
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Lists of mathematicians. Legobot (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia:Bot requests
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia:Bot requests. Legobot (talk) 00:01, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 September 2015

 * Read this Signpost in full
 * Single-page
 * Unsubscribe
 * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Edward J. Ruppelt
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Edward J. Ruppelt. Legobot (talk) 00:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

HP
This edit of yours doesn't indicate whether the 145,000 was before all of the 30,000 layoffs or before some of them, or after all of them. So I don't see what purpose is served by the edit. If it makes you happy, I'll accept your edit, but not for any other reason.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Layoffs, if you read the other parts of the article, were implemented after the merger (in fact one of the reasons for the merger was to reduce costs by reducing headcount). So all in all, if you take into account that 8,000 jobs were added via other acquisitions... it ended up being a wash. That's is why that material is really not relevant; the ony relevant thing is that she created massive disruption in 30,000 families. -   Cwobeel   (talk)  14:21, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Twenty-five hours is not "a few days", is it? Please revert your edit at Fiorina or I will report this.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:42, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Is the edit wrong? Do you disagree with the content? I though that it was a very useful edit as it provides the entire picture. I will revert, but please consider re-adding it because it improves the section. In any case, I inted to resume editing tomorrow or day after. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  19:55, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I will consider the edit, and will insert as much of the new material as I can. Thanks for avoiding my "wrath".Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:02, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The text is a bit funny, because it papers over the fact that while the 30,000 jobs lost were US workers, the employee additions during her tenure were mostly overseas and from acquisitions. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  21:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See for example What Fiorina didn't note is that much of HP's employment growth was through acquisitions. In 2001, HP acquired Compaq, adding 64,000 employees, and in 2008 it added EDS, gaining another 139,000. Whether these acquisitions were wise or successfully integrated is a matter for debate. But a more important issue may be whether HP still matters as a U.S. employer. Many of these jobs are overseas, and more may be heading there.  -   Cwobeel   (talk)  21:22, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The article is never going to be exactly like you want it. Already, the lead says that the new employees included "employees outside the United States".  Likewise, the section on layoffs already says that, "the new hires included many employees in countries outside the United States."  I don't think it's useful to endlessly re-debate this.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:12, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We shall see. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  22:20, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * At least please take it up at the article talk page so we don't get into more edit wars. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:36, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I am doing some research which I will share in talk, if it yields the info I am looking for. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  22:41, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Wow, thanks! -  Cwobeel   (talk)  03:25, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Commons explanation
In response to your query, essentially here are the pages for reading that explain the matter: The last one, OTRS, is the best process to go through to get the copyright holder to release copyright under an acceptable free-use license. However, we'd also require not just the photographer of the work but the creator of the work itself, the artwork created by the artist, to license copyright via a free-use license.
 * 1) commons:COM:L
 * 2) commons:COM:DERIV
 * 3) commons:COM:OTRS

Hope that's helpful,

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 20:52, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of other files that actually are free-use licensed that could be useful, for example File:9-23-15 DOJ Letter on Ahmed Mohamed.pdf. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -  Cwobeel   (talk)  21:07, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Hope that's helpful, &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:10, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps these three (3) secondary sources might be helpful at explaining the above:

The Signpost: 23 September 2015

 * Read this Signpost in full
 * Single-page
 * Unsubscribe
 * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:25, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

RFC suggestion
When making RFCs in the past, I often try to split the subsection headers below the RFC into Previously involved participants and Previously uninvolved, respondents to the RFC.

That way, you have one section for those that may, unfortunately, devolve into the same tired parties rehashing circular arguments which drove the need for the RFC in the first place.

And, hopefully, another section for the fresh eyes, the people ideally coming because they saw the RFC itself, who are hopefully previously uninvolved participants.

Just a suggestion,

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 02:46, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Awesome suggestion. Thanks. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  02:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Here's hoping it's at least a moderately civil and productive discussion. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 02:49, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Peter Dinklage
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Peter Dinklage. Legobot (talk) 00:00, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Ahmed Mohamed Clock Incident
That section on the incident, which seems to focus on the Mohamed family dealing with the aftermath of it, should also include more of Ahmed and his family's remarks on what happened during the incident once there was talk about if it was a bomb or not and how he felt about being handcuffed, etc., in order to give his side. There have been many remarks from them that have been widely reported, but there's really not much there on that, including, for example, an actual quote from him about it being only a clock and that he never said it was a bomb. I don't have the time right now to add anthing, but it's a suggestion if you would have time. If not I might sometime soon or will suggest on the talk page that a little more gets added. Psalm84 (talk) 01:48, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * : There are plenty of sources covering these aspects, but the article now is a mess, with unattributed minority opinions in the lead presented as facts, and undue weight aspects regarding the Mayor's comments. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  02:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The Dallas Morning News has a bit more out with a newer article: Hope that's helpful, &mdash; Cirt (talk) 04:43, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

White House Press Briefing video


White House Press Briefing video file.

Public domain licensed as a product of the Executive Office of the President of the United States.

Could be useful and encyclopedic, what do you think?

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 00:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure why the video was removed, it's unquestionably part of the incident history, right? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 01:16, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It certainly is, but there are a few editors that are trying to keep RS material out of the article for their own reasons. Some of them made some outrageous comments during the AFD. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  01:24, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories
The Dallas Morning News does a good job at taking apart the various conspiracy theories that have popped up, who knows whether they're motivated by paranoia or prejudice, but the news organization skillfully debunks them pretty well:


 * Reprinted in The Seattle Times

Hopefully these WP:RS & WP:V secondary sources are helpful to you in providing some clarity to this situation,

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 17:10, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -  Cwobeel   (talk)  17:14, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Good luck to you, &mdash; Cirt (talk) 17:16, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Great job on Conspiracy theories sect. I wonder if the so-called "analysis" sect should be merged into the Conspiracy theories sect as well, since most of the sources in the "analysis" sect violate WP:RS (as I see you already observed), and therefore violate WP:BLP and probably wouldn't stand up to intense scrutiny at the noticeboard WP:BLPN, per WP:FRINGE -- curious what you think? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 03:37, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is tough crowd in that article's talk page, but I'll try. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  03:41, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm just wondering because if you cut out the most obvious sources that fail WP:RS in the "Clock photo analysis" sect, there's not much there of substance. I'm seeing sources like: I could be wrong, and of course it's open to interpretation, but Wikipedia itself seems to identify The Daily Caller as conservative, and it seems like 99% of the Conspiracy theories are being fomented by people of that ilk. But the more serious matter is WP:RS. These sources, for use in this article, could potentially be discussed individually one-at-a-time, either at WP:RSN or WP:BLPN. Gotta stick to WP:RS, right? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 03:49, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) TechWorm
 * 2) Maxim.com
 * 3) PJ Media
 * 4) Twitter post itself - obvious primary source, fails WP:NOR
 * 5) The Daily Caller
 * 6) Blogs.artvoice.com - blog section of its site
 * 7) medvr.ict.usc.edu - fine in an article about the guy himself, but use of primary source in this manner in this article fails WP:NOR
 * Can you weigh in on the talk page? Your participation would be more effective that manner. If you want to stay out of it though, I'd understand. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  03:51, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'd rather focus on other projects. But about WP:RS -- Conversely, if you get a ruling at WP:RSN that The Dallas Morning News is a reliable secondary source, then stuff like this should be easy to address -- as either The Dallas Morning News is a valid secondary source that meets WP:RS, or it isn't. And if it is, then it's reliable for facts, without attribution every single time it's used, you know? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 03:53, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:WTA (specifically WP:ALLEGED) includes "allegations". Might want to just keep it simple and leave that sect title short as Conspiracy theories. Thoughts? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:42, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Check out how much space is given to discussing Conspiracy theories in the Good Article quality rated page -- September 11 attacks. What do you think of that as a pretty "good quality" model to use with how much weight to give to conspiracy theories (identified as such by The Dallas Morning News) in the article? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 22:59, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * : See Fringe_theories/Noticeboard -  Cwobeel   (talk)  01:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Pretty well written there. Always remember to keep it short and sweet, but balance that by giving enough context so people can understand the ongoing situation. Key thing is to avoid people glazing over and reacting with TL;DR. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 01:52, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Multiple sources characterizing as conspiracy theories
Sorry if there is an impression that only one source is calling these conspiracy theories.

That is inaccurate.

Multiple sources characterizing as conspiracy theories:



Bolded emphasis added to relevant quotations.

Hopefully cited sources above are helpful,

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 23:59, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, Words to Avoid generally include "allegations" and "claims"... Maybe just reverse sect title, not "Hoax allegations and conspiracy theories" but Conspiracy theories and hoax claims or just simply Conspiracy theories, keep it simple? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:20, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

International meeting at Friday dinner


There's a lot more sources reporting on this meeting that took place, but that's probably sufficient for now.

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 00:47, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you,, but I think the AFD concluded that the article is about the incident and not about the person. I guess that if he becomes more notable and additional such meetings and coverage emerges, we could create a BLP for the person. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  00:50, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * He gave a speech beforehand about the incident. He also went to Maker Faire and spoke about it there link. And he gave the introduction at the UN Social Good Summit link. And he met Queen Rania of Jordan link. This will get more coverage in sources, presumably. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 00:56, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Good. Keep it coming, and we can start a stub BLP for the kid. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  01:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's up to you, but for now if he's making speeches at international gatherings about the incident, could that go in the article about the incident? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 01:04, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you have the link for the speech at international gathering? That would be great. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  01:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * From the first source cited in this sect, above: "Despite everything, we should always be creative, even when others turn you down. My dream is to raise consciousness against racism and discrimination.". &mdash; Cirt (talk) 01:14, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Mind you, that's a quote from his statement before the Friday dinner. As for the introduction at the UN Social Good Summit link there's this source so far, but probably hopefully other better sources tomorrow that will report on that event. Eg link and link. That seems to be a major new development, don't you think? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Good summary for us to read, for interest, but best to wait for better WP:RS sources to come out about that. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 03:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you are right. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  03:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the UN Week event, here's more info on Social Good Summit in NYC -- although unfortunately, again, best to wait for better sources on this event. Just FYI for now, &mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:55, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Received commendation from New York City Comptroller Scott Stringer link, and New York City Public Advocate Letitia James proclaims Ahmed Day link. Should not use these links as they are primary sources, but hopefully secondary sources will come out about this. Just FYI, &mdash; Cirt (talk) 19:31, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

pocketknife
Did you ever end up picking something up? Due to my own mishaps, I lost the knife I had been carrying before (the discontinued vertex) and replaced it with the M4. Its functionally fairly similar to the vertex, and I like its looks even more (although its a tad bit more bulky) but it has some fit/finish issues that annoy me. http://www.amazon.com/Columbia-River-Knife-Tools-M4-02W/dp/B0033H7V72/ref=pd_sim_469_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=08PYRZZ8BXEQAPYGKWST&dpID=31p6LZE%2BjOL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_ 19:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * No, I could not find a Vertex so I gave up and stuck with my basic locking one. I'll check the M4. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  20:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Impact of T-shirt on public perception of NASA culture
Relevant portion of article quoted, above.

Though there's a bit more context in the article that's also relevant on the impact.

A most interesting development, yes? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:03, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  16:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Whoops, forgot the work field. Cite fixed, above. The New York Observer is the publication. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:18, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah so it's not The Observer but The New York Observer, currently pointing to the wrong one, sorry about that. Now fixed in cite, above. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 20:09, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Photo was cropped out
Photo was cropped out. Image used in article now redirects to File:NASA - We're supporters of STEM and inspiring kids like Ahmed to pursue their dreams (cropped out photo).jpg. This one is only work of NASA. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 19:17, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this image might have more value File:NASA tweet to student Ahmed Mohamed.jpg ? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 20:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * On another photo note, this is encouraging. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 20:55, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Weasel Zippers
Is this a reliable source? Weasel Zippers? Really? I mean really? Cmon, really? (think Saturday Night Live when reading that, lol).

I mean if taken to WP:RSN or WP:BLPN, clearly lots of sources used in this page would be outright rejected and users warned, for edits like DIFF and DIFF.

Maybe it's time to evaluate individual sources on a specific case-by-case basis at WP:RSN or WP:BLPN -- with specific examples of problematic editing like above DIFFs ?

What do you think?

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * LOL. Can you revert these? I am at my limit on that article. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  21:15, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Rather than revert, why not just bring it to WP:BLPN and see how those edits hold up to scrutiny there? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Posted at WP:FT/N, in that thread there about the incident. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  21:19, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Reported, at Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard. Report look okay? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Left a link to that thread, hopefully for more eyes on it, at Administrators%27_noticeboard. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:31, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Can you help putting together a 3RR report for ? -  Cwobeel   (talk)  21:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅, at Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Going to Qatar
Most notable developments. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 22:35, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:RS source. Met Mayor of New York City Bill de Blasio, Comptroller of New York City Scott Stringer, New York City Public Advocate Letitia James, and members of New York City Council. Visit arranged by NYPD Muslim Officers Society. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 02:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:RS source. Met Mayor of New York City Bill de Blasio, Comptroller of New York City Scott Stringer, New York City Public Advocate Letitia James, and members of New York City Council. Visit arranged by NYPD Muslim Officers Society. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 02:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Another WP:RS source for same info related to New York City trip, above. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 03:26, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Another WP:RS source for same info related to New York City trip, above. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 03:26, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Violation of WP:GS/SCW sanctions
Dear user, per WP:GF please self-revert on article Arab Winter, which is a second revert in 24hr. You have already been warned on this topic.GreyShark (dibra) 07:00, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * . Thanks for the heads up. Done. - -   Cwobeel   (talk)  16:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

OP
By "OP" I meant the first message in the section. I was just trying to get the discussion off the side issue regarding the wording of the first message in the section, which you have apparently gotten past. Good. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)