User talk:Daitya

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Reliable sources
Hello Daitya. Welcome to wikipedia. I wanted to let you know that I reverted your edits because the source you are using is a personal website. Please read Reliable sources to understand which sources are appropriate. Personal websites owned by the subject of the article are not Reliable sources. Also, your edits must conform to Biographies of living persons, as you have chosen to edit a biography of a living person. Thanks and happy editing. Ism schism (talk) 13:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hansadutta
Thanks, Ism schism, for the tip; however, I beg to disagree in this instance, because the article already does cite info taken from the personal website's bio, and furthermore the Wikipedia article re Reliable Sources does specifically say that it is to be accepted as guideline, not as policy. Please note that the changes/additions I have made to the article are not merely hearsay, but also include the subject's own statements of position on issues of importance to the Hare Krishna movement - as in his publications. And what is the objection to the photo? The info, as it is now, does not accurately portray Hansadutta's current status/role, nor does it accurately report his expulsion from the Society, nor his role/contributions to the movement in its pioneer days. If you find my changes objectionable because of problem with reliability, then I find your version objectionable for the very same reason, because your material is largely based on the ISKCON edition. So why don't we include both sides, then? You say what ISKCON has to say, and let Hansadutta and others who know him and have worked with him through the years contribute their part. The way the article stands now, it is for the most part inaccurate and unfair representation of Hansadutta, and it is not clear from where much of the content has been taken. I'm new at posting to Wikipedia (as you can tell), so I'm not sure what to do in the case of disputed content, so perhaps you can point me to a way to resolve this?Daitya (talk) 13:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I can point you to some sources. I hope they help. In Biographis of living persons the following is stated concerning reliable sources:

Reliable sources
Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies, and could lead to libel claims.

Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link (see above).

Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below).

Editors should avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to an encyclopedia article about the subject. When less-than-reliable publications print material they suspect is untrue, they often include weasel phrases. Look out for these. If the original publication doesn't believe its own story, why should we?

Editors should also be careful of a feedback loop in which an unsourced and speculative contention in a Wikipedia article gets picked up, with or without attribution, in an otherwise-reliable newspaper or other media story, and that story is then cited in the Wikipedia article to support the original speculative contention.

and most importantly....

Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
 * 1) the material used is relevant to their notability;
 * 2) it is not contentious;
 * 3) it is not unduly self-serving;
 * 4) it does not involve claims about third parties;
 * 5) it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
 * 6) there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it;
 * 7) the article is not based primarily on such sources.

Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Re Reliable Sources
Well, I've already read these articles, thank you, and for this very reason, in fact, I am concerned that the current post on Hansadutta's biostub is inaccurate and unfair. Furthermore, you reverted all my changes without retaining any that have obvious merit and ought not to be subject to dispute, such as photo and also some minor grammatical corrections.

So without meaning any personal disrespect to you, I have to say that this raises some question in my mind as to your objectivity.

I propose a discussion on the changes I've made, bit by bit, if you will allow, so that I might see exactly what is the problem you have with the content, and therefore I'm inserting the text of my changes into this talk box, beginning with the first section: --

 Hansadutta das (formerly known as Hans Kary, alias Jack London''') was born in Brunswick, Germany on May 27, 1941. He is one of the senior disciples of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and formerly recognized as a guru within the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (commonly known as 'the Hare Krishnas' or ISKCON). '''

Compare this to the earlier version: --

 Hansadutta das (formerly known as Hans Kary, alias Jack London''') was born in Brunswick, Germany on May 27, 1941. He was one of the leading disciples of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and formally a guru within the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (commonly known as 'the Hare Krishnas' or ISKCON). '''

Forgive me if I insert this incorrectly - I want to show the code as well.

If there is an easier way to present the comparisons and discuss them, please inform me.

I'll be waiting to hear back from you what are your objections to the changes made to this first paragraph, before we go on further. Daitya (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Three examples
I acknowledge your hard work so I will just pick out three statements that are from personal websites and are contraversial. Contraversial statements are fine, but for biographies of living persons they require reliable sources and not personal websites. These are, and I'm quoting from the above rules, "contentious, involve claims about third parties and involve claims about events not directly related to the subject". The third example, the mention of the personal website itself, should be moved to the external links section. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * While preaching in Sri Lanka in the year 1977, Hansadutta created a public sensation with his answer to a challenge by Dr. Abraham T. Kovoor, president of the Sri Lanka branch of the Rationalist Association, which exchange was published in the Colombo (Sri Lanka) Sunday Times. Srila Prabhupada requested his disciples to include the exchange in his own publication of the title "Life Comes from Life".


 * However, upon the departure of Srila Prabhupada on November 14, 1977, the eleven disciples took the order to mean that they had become successor guru acharyas, and as part of ISKCON's Zonal Acarya system, Hansadutta initiated disciples within Germany, France and Sri Lanka. Since 1993, Hansadutta has redirected all former "disciples" to regard Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master.


 * Hansadutta hosts his own website under the name The Bhaktivedantas World Sankirtan Party.

These are the three sections. My main point is that in biographis of living persons you can not use personal websites to state anything about other people at all whether Dr. Kovoor or associates of Hansudatta. You can put the above statements in the article if they are backed up by reliable sources, not personal websites. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll get back to the discussion tomorrow, thank you. Daitya (talk) 17:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

New draft
Dear ism schism, I have once again pored over the articles re source reliability and biographies of living persons, and have since gone back over the content I would like to add/change to Hansadutta's biostub. Please do you mind to read through it and give me your objective feedback whether it meets the criteria (for the most part) and point out any further problems, or suggest a rewrite here and there so as to allow for facts and issues under dispute?

A couple of notes: 1) While you protested that some of my references linked back to the subject's personal website, which violates the guidelines for source reliability, yet do you not see that the very first ref given in the current version is actually to the bio page at Hansadutta's own website, and yet has been permitted? I have endeavored in this draft to cite references other than those published at Hansadutta's website, even though many of the references are not to be found online. But there are instances where supporting evidence is best gotten straight from the horse's mouth - such as his stand on the rittvik issue (reference given is his own publication "Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You") and what he directed former disciples to do (again, reference given is his own publication). One or two additional references point to his website for documents which are in fact not authored by the subject himself, such as the "Letter of July 9th, 1977" and the "Direction of Management", both of which are important documents in the history of ISKCON. I happen to have them on microfiche, and I have also the Bhaktivedanta VedaBase, but these two documents are more easily, readily accessed online at the subject's own website. 2) I think that the headings of the content as they stand now on the page might be narrowed down more specifically to reflect the periods worthy of note in the subject's life, and to allow for further expansion, and so I've taken the liberty to change them. The heading "Early days" is kinda vague - I thought better to highlight the fact that Hansadutta is one of the very early disciples of Prabhupada, but if you prefer a heading indicative of a time period, then something like "Role in early days of Hare Krishna movement" might work better. The heading "After Prabhupada's Death" deserves to be changed, because the period of time stretches from 1977 until the present, yet there is inbetween another heading referring to his excommunication from ISKCON, which is after all something that happened after Prabhupada's death. 3) I've also added a list of his publications (again there are some links back to his personal website where the publications are hosted). If you think these belong in a different section, please advise.

I'm posting the rewrite here in the talk page first, so that we might thrash it out without bouncing back and forth on the actual biostub page. I've included the markup code. If this is not the place to do it, please advise me. So here goes: --

Hansadutta das (sometimes spelled Hamsaduta das, also known as Hans Kary, alias Jack London) was born in Brunswick, Germany on May 27, 1941. He is one of the senior disciples of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and formerly recognized as a guru within the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (commonly known as 'the Hare Krishnas' or ISKCON).

Early disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Hare Krishna Founder-Acharya
Hansadutta became an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada in March, 1967. Hansadutta's first wife, Himavati devi dasi, was also initiated around this time. He assisted with the pioneering of the Hare Krishna movement, opening centers and preaching in Canada: Montreal and Vancouver; Europe: Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Russia; in USA: Boston, Berkeley; and in Asia: Turkey, Cairo, Afghanistan, Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Philippines, Singapore and Malaysia.

He is one of the leaders in publication (printing and distribution) of Srila Prabhupada's books, particularly in European languages, heading up the sales of books in Germany and North Europe, and in 1974 was appointed by Srila Prabhupada to serve as lifetime trustee of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

He was also appointed as a member of ISKCON's Governing Body Commission, and took turns serving as Srila Prabhupada's personal secretary.

In 1976 Hansadutta took up the order of sannyasa.

While preaching in Sri Lanka in the year 1977, Hansadutta created a public sensation with his answer to a challenge by Dr. Abraham T. Kovoor, president of the Sri Lanka branch of the Rationalist Association, which exchange was published in the Colombo (Sri Lanka) Sunday Times. Srila Prabhupada requested the exchange be included in his own publication of the title "Life Comes from Life".

ISKCON Guru
In July 1977, Hansadutta was one of eleven disciples selected by Srila Prabhupada to become rittvik representatives of the Acharya. Shortly after the departure of Srila Prabhupada on November 14, 1977, it was announced that the eleven disciples had been designated as gurus, and as part of ISKCON's Zonal Acarya system, Hansadutta initiated disciples primarily within zones assigned to him, namely North America, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and Philippines.

Expelled from ISKCON
In 1980, Hansadutta was arrested for possession of illegal weapons.

On July 8th, 1983, the Governing Body Commission of ISKCON passed a resolution removing Hansadutta from ISKCON.

In 1984, Hansadutta married his second wife, Laksmi devi dasi, by whom he has three children - Radharani, Krsna Govinda and Hansa Gopa Kumar.

In 1992 Hansadutta learnt that in fact he had never been excommunicated; ISKCON had merely removed him from his GBC role and the rosters of the society. In that very same year, ISKCON GBC sent Hansadutta a letter, "14 Guidelines for Welcoming Hansadutta Back to ISKCON", stipulating 14 terms and conditions which he must comply with in order to return to the Society. In response, Hansadutta published an exchange of letters between GBC godbrothers and himself under the title Excommunicated, Uncommunicated, Incommunicado (1993).

Rittvik representative of the Acharya
At the same time, in 1993, Hansadutta published a collection of essays, letters and articles under the title Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You, in which he presented arguments and evidence in support of continuation of the parampara (disciplic succession) by rittvik representation of the Acharya, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami (Srila Prabhupada). At this time Hansadutta redirected all his former "disciples" to regard Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master, and began to initiate new disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, as "rittvik representative of the Acharya".

In 1997, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International, Inc. and ISKCON of California, Inc. initiated legal action against Hansadutta, seeking court declaration that Srila Prabhupada's Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (California, 1972) was not a legal entity and/or Hansadutta was not a legal trustee of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. On November 13th, 1998, Hansadutta agreed to a stipulated court settlement that effectively terminated any claims he might have had to being a trustee of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust conditional upon receipt of an undisclosed cash settlement and license to publish the original, unrevised books of Srila Prabhupada.

Current Status
In 2003, Hansadutta suffered a heart attack. He is living now in Cloverdale, California and continues to serve Srila Prabhupada as rittvik representative of the Acharya.

Publications
Books (printed in hard copy, weblinks below for free online versions): -- 1983 - The Hammer for Smashing Illusion, based on a translation of "Moha-Mudgara Stotra", more popularly known as "Bhaja Govinda" by Shankaracharya. 1984 - Kirtan: Ancient Medicine for Modern Man. 1985 - Fool's Paradise. ISBN 0-933593-05-8-(pbk) 1985 - The Book: What the Black Sheep Said. ISBN 0-933593-03-1-(pbk)

Papers, Compilations of Essays, Letters and Discussions The following papers by Hansadutta address controversies in ISKCON, namely the rittvik controversy, Hansadutta's own alleged excommunication from ISKCON, and the influence of Narayan Maharaja of the Gaudiya Math on ISKCON members: -- 1993 - Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You. 1993 - Excommunicated, Uncommunicated, Incommunicado. 1994 -. Daitya (talk) 10:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That looks good to me. I can't see any problems in the above as there are now more sources and personal websites aren't used to refer to any third parties. And it just looks good. I think this is the start of a good article. Let me know if I can be of any help. Happy editing. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 10:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, ism schism, for your valuable help and guidance. I'll go ahead and post it, then. Daitya (talk) 11:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Hansadutta Swami
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