User talk:David in DC/Archive 4

Final discussion for Requests for comment/Biographies of living people
Hello, I note that you have commented on the first phase of Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

As this RFC closes, there are two proposals being considered:
 * 1) Proposal to Close This RfC
 * 2) Alternate proposal to close this RFC: we don't need a whole new layer of bureaucracy

Your opinion on this is welcome. Okip  02:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * RE: your comments in the RFC. your welcome. Best wishes in your editing :) Okip  04:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Sam Adams
Hey there, I did look for a discussion on this strange name phrasing, and then I tried to start a discussion on the talk page more than month ago that got no response. However, after looking at it again, I do see that I missed the archive which I have now read. I would like to revisit this issue because since the time of the incident, Breedlove is writing a memoir and has appeared in several magazines with the story. If you'd like to comment on my original talk page post, that might be a good start. Thanks! --Esprqii (talk) 22:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced warning
Hi David. You might want to reconsider this warning posted to the talk page of. As far as I can see, that editor's only contribution to the article in question is some fairly harmless Wikification; the article was created by another editor. Favonian (talk) 22:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks rather like you have issued warnings to everyone who ever edited Elaine Parent. That's a bit "radical".  Favonian (talk) 23:08, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Elaine Parent: you have the wrong editor
Excuse me, regarding the attack warning you left on my talk page. I have made only two minor edits. In the first, I erroneously made the section heading lowercase, then realized that "Parent" was a surname. See edit diff. I am certain that you have the wrong editor.  Esowteric + Talk  22:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello, a number of editors, at least two of them admins, got attack page creator warned. You might want to revert or explain the templated warnings. Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  23:22, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * No worries, we live and learn. I was on autopilot at the time and made the edit without actually reading the article :)  Esowteric + Talk  12:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Elaine Parent
No prob. Link to reply. Dloh  cierekim  15:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time.  MBisanz  talk 02:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow. What a nice thing to come home to after an extended sojourn in real life.  I'm touched and honored.  I'll be around more again, so this is very cool. I'll wield any authority very lightly. David in DC (talk) 20:08, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:GLAM/SI invite
Thanks for thinking of me, but I'm too busy IRL. David in DC (talk) 20:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia Campus Ambassador?
Hi there, I'm LiAnna Davis, the communications associate for the Wikimedia Foundation's new Public Policy Initiative. We are currently looking for dedicated Wikipedians near the George Washington University and Georgetown University areas to serve as Campus Ambassadors, and I hope you might be interested or know someone who is.

Volunteer Campus Ambassadors will provide face-to-face training and support for professors and students on Wikipedia-related skills, such as how to create new articles, how to add images, how the talk pages work, etc. If you're especially enthusiastic and know people on campus, you can set up Wikipedia-related student groups and organize "Welcome to Wikipedia" social events.

More details about the Wikipedia Campus Ambassador role can be found at http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Campus_Ambassador.

The estimated time commitment for this role is 3-5 hours a week, possibly slightly more at the very beginning and very end of the semester. The Wikimedia Foundation will hold a mandatory three-day training for all Campus Ambassadors in August, and we will continue to stay in contact with and offer full support for the Campus Ambassadors throughout the academic semester.

Please let us know if this is something that sounds interesting to you or if you know of any other Wikipedians near George Washington or Georgetown who could help out. Feel free to respond on Annie Lin's talk page or email her at alin@wikimedia.org (Annie is our Campus Team Coordinator). --Ldavis (Public Policy) (talk) 20:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but no thanks. David in DC (talk) 20:12, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

C.R.A.F.T. Syndrome
Can't Remember A Freakin' Thing. I may have cleaned that up just a wee bit. David in DC (talk) 16:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia: where dolts with insomnia ...
go to makes asses of themselves. User:David in DC will be taking a WP:Wikibreak now.David in DC (talk) 14:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes/Straw poll on interim usage
Hi. As you recently commented in the straw poll regarding the ongoing usage and trial of Pending changes, this is to notify you that there is an interim straw poll with regard to keeping the tool switched on or switching it off while improvements are worked on and due for release on November 9, 2010. This new poll is only in regard to this issue and sets no precedent for any future usage. Your input on this issue is greatly appreciated. Off2riorob (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't get it.
What's his username mean? &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 21:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It's Sparks, but with a lisp. David in DC (talk) 23:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The First Rule of Holes
If you're in one, stop digging. David in DC (talk) 17:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good idea, at least you are a voice of reason unlike some of the other editors, ill have to remember your advice in the future. Longevitydude (talk) 15:36, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Happy editing. David in DC (talk) 19:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Your welcome, you too. Longevitydude (talk) 14:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Polin
Hi, as you are the main contributor to the article, The Awareness Centre I though you might like to comment at the BLP noticeboard thread as to your experiences there. Off2riorob (talk) 11:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Longevity COI
A discussion about longevity WP:COI has been initiated at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People. As a recent contributor to this page, your comments are solicited. JJB 20:15, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Greetings,


 * My accusation regarding Wiki-stalking was primarily directed at JJBulten. I see you and Grismaldo as being "recruited" by him as a sort of way to "bully" his way to acceptance for what is, in fact, non-mainstream, non-scientific hocus-focus.


 * Further, we saw a false charge from O Fenian, I wonder if he is going to apologize now that it turns out that he was wrong about my reporting the alleged death of Margaret Fish to Wikipedia. Ryoung 122 03:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've never met him. I've never interacted with him except in open communication on-wiki. We are not working together. We disagreed about Timenu's first summary at the AfD. I've counselled Longevitydude on civility, civilly, and he responded civilly. It's up above. It wouldn't hurt for you to go to his page and read my counsel to him. It would apply in spades to the tone of your edits.


 * Re-reading your comments above, I just noticed something very funny. I think it's a typo, but whether it is or not, I'm adopting it into my vocabulary as a neologism. Hocus-focus. Perfect. Thanks.
 * Sorry, I got distracted.


 * If your wikistalking charge was primarily directed at JJB, my name did not belong in it.


 * "I see you as..." At various times you've "seen" me as anti-gay (which if you knew me offline you'd understand just why that one pissed me off), anti-porn (Again, nonsense. And I've got the hotel bill television charges to prove it) and a member of a cabal (I think I've responded adequetely to that bit of bullpoop sufficiently, both here and where you made the accusation.) So your virtual eyesight isn't very good. You might want to consult a virtual ophthalmologist.


 * I feel bad for poor Margaret. O Fenian's last sentence says a member of her family complained that she was still alive. I sure hope she heard of it and cut that guy out of her will.
 * Sorry, got distracted again.


 * About COI. I'll say it again, if you think our content differences have ANYTHING to do with COI, you don't know what COI is. Which might explain why you violate the rules about it so promiscuously, ubiquitously and darn-near universally. Please read the effing WP:COI page.
 * About your occasional "I'll appeal to the Wikimedia Foundation. I've done it before" trope: Please do. Nothing kills a bad product better than good advertising. Please call their attention to your edit history and mine. Pretty please. With sugar and a maraschino cherry on top. If you do it 100 times, I'll find it notable. More than 110 times, I'll find it supernotable. More than 120 times, superdupernotable.


 * I'll end with my favorite Teamster salutation: Keep the shiny side up and the rubber side down. David in DC (talk) 14:02, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

note
I left a comment at the thread at blpn - regards - Off2riorob (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Luke ford
Can you provide me with a link to this bloggers article that you claim Polin admits that it is her, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 23:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

No worries, I have it thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 23:31, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom
You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Arbitration/Requests and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
 * Arbitration/Requests;
 * Arbitration guide.

Thanks,

Suggestion
I was saddened to see you accuse me for a second time of WP:OWN violation at List of Fictional Penguins and in case you were curious, yes I have noticed your negative personal comments although you needn't be concerned that I took them seriously. Obviously you feel very strongly about this issue and I can tell you that after having spent many many hours repairing these articles I also have strong opinions. Despite this I do not wish to engage in an edit war with you. I see that you have now added the character Mumble the Penguin to the list for a third time. You have also added Tennessee Tuxedo, another fictional penguin character. I assume you are acting in good faith, however the continued addition of these characters in the middle of an ongoing discussion (or two) is counterproductive to building consensus on this issue. I will not revert your most recent edits because I see that you are trying to properly demonstrate notability, however I hasten to mention that the current references do not meet the burden of proof for notability. If these references are not improved then the entries will most likely be removed.

Both the Mumble and Tennessee Tuxedo entries are now supported by references that do not cover the penguin characters in a significant manner. The reference you use for Mumble doesn't even mention him and the reference for Tennessee Tuxedo is an article about his animator and it only mentions him once. Please also note that notability is not inherited and thus an article about the notable film "happy feet" that discursively covers Mumble only in relation to the film is insufficient to demonstrate the notability of the character as anything but an element of the film. I wrote up a new post here using Mumble the Penguin as an example in order to have something to use as an example for later editors that run into the same issue. Again keep in mind that I am absolutely not interested in excluding Mumble from the list however I am interested in making sure that certain rules be followed in order to add content to articles that otherwise slip into useless directories. Even articles as seemingly insignificant as this one reflect on Wikipedia's ability to be treated as a serious source for legitimate encyclopedic information. A list of every fictional work in which the word "penguin" appears is certainly not appropriate. Whether of not a sourced list of notable fictional penguin characters is appropriate is debatable but if by consensus it is deemed to be then I think it is only appropriate that we follow the editorial rules when adding to it. -Thibbs (talk) 06:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, NW ( Talk ) 14:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Your comments are solicited at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Workshop. JJB 19:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are interested in providing evidence to this case, please see this note about a deadline. NW ( Talk ) 18:51, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your contribution, still working on mine of course. ArbCom will like it if you use specific fact headings to clarify the links without anyone else tapping you besides me. The tongue-in-cheek language is fine by me but needs headings that describe the facts alleged, for disambiguation. Shalom. JJB 04:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Gerontology Research Group and Guinness World Records
Greetings,

To clarify: the GRG is the #1 source for the Guinness World Records "oldest people" titleholders. Maud Farris-Luse came from the GRG. Guinness at the time had nominated Amy Hulmes, 113, of the UK when the GRG sent in the case.

It's also possible for cases to be sent in directly to Guinness World Records. But even when that happens (such as Maria Capovilla), the family told me they first saw an article in the news about the GRG and Ramona Trinidad Iglesias-Jordan in May 2004. It took them a year+ to find the documents necessary for acceptance.

Remember, notability is established by the existence of outside sources, not whether the article has them right now. If an article appears to be borderline, it should be tagged first, requesting sources be added. Usually, a courtesy of one month is given to the article creator. If after a month, the article is still unsourced, then it's nominated for deletion.

JJBulten has not playing by the rules.

1. He mass-nominated a lot of articles on December 5, using the same wording each time. 2. He votes for his own nomination (again against policy). 3. He self-references his own "policies" even when they haven't been approved by others and are little more than him changing things on a "deletion outcomes" or project page.

I'm not going to lie, there's no need for hundreds of articles on every supercentenarian. However, JJ has argued that even if notability is established by outside sources, these people shouldn't have a biography if their name is on a list.

This is against Wiki policy (problem #4). It's also against common sense: we don't say we can't have articles on Supreme Court justices because they are on a list of supreme court justices. Biography is needed to make these people "human", not just statistics.

Now, a few concerns about your comments:

Yes, JJBulten brought all these AFD's to your attention. You didn't just "discover" these here. As usual, JJ plays dirty, and this is another example. He also makes a list of "friends" and tries to bully/intimidate new or young editors (for example, he suggested that Brendanology wasn't a good editor because he was only 15). So I see your being there more a product of JJ than you yourself.

The GRG is listed in Guinness World Records 2011 as the source of their "top ten" oldest persons list.

The GRG has deferred to Guinness for the World's Oldest Person title, but remember Guinness only tracks first-place records. It is therefore necessary to use the GRG to determine who is second-oldest, third-oldest, et cetera. And that could be sourced to GWR 2011. Just buy one today, and see for yourself.

Also, self-published sources are admissable if the person is an "expert" and the material is non-controversial.

I agree that articles need more than "just" a www.recordholders.org reference, a WOP reference, etc...but it could be useful for names on a list.

www.recordholders.org is a German Guinness records club (Club Saxonia). Louis is a content provider, not a publisher.

Ryoung 122 05:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I will consider what you have written above. Please consider what I will write below.


 * You can see every interaction I have ever had with JJB, by looking on-wiki. We've never communicated in any other way. He has NEVER brought an AfD to my attention, except to the extent that he has brought them to everyone's attention with his very constructive table of articles and outcomes.


 * I am not part of any cabal. (I'm also not anti-porn or anti-gay.)


 * I have no conflict of interest. I avoid articles where I might have one. I have no conflict of interest with you. I have no off-wiki interest that you have any connection to. Please re-read WP:COI.


 * One's credibility can be damaged when one makes accusations that have no basis in reality. Especially one's credibility in the eyes of the falsely accused.


 * Never trust a person who cannot demonstrate a sense of humor.


 * The only absolutely accurate indicia of adulthood are the ability to disagree without being disagreeable and the ability to take matters seriously without taking ones self seriously.
 * David in DC (talk) 14:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Just chiming in here...the Wikipolicy of treating lack of originality as if it were a positive thing is something I am cordially hostile to.Original research should be preferred to second-hand (or worse) gleanings.I gather that those who claim Rejuvenation Research (whose renaming by its current editor I deplore) is not reliable are questioning the professional reputation of Mary Ann Liebert Inc.,its publisher.But to claim that hearsay is the only admissible evidence in the Court of Wikipedia is just repulsive.--L.E./12.144.5.2 (talk) 05:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * When I don't like the rules, I work to change them, or switch my energies to some project whose rules I find more amenable. It would be the height of hubris for me to take a third path, that of ignoring or derogating the importance of the rules in favor of what I believe to make more sense.
 * If the rules don't suit, please do not ignore them. Please work to change them. By consensus. That would be done at the policy's project page, not individual, article-by-article. We don't change (or disregard) the rules, we work within them. The approach you expound, that so derogates current WP policy --- "the Wikipolicy of treating lack of originality as if it were a positive thing is something I am cordially hostile to. Original research should be preferred to second-hand (or worse) gleanings..." --- is profoundly misguided. Experts can contribute here. But if experts come to this collaborative effort viewing, and denominating, the rules as things to abhor, ignore, and deplore, they can expect to stretch the assumption of good faith required for collaboration up to, and sometimes beyond, its breaking point. David in DC (talk) 11:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Re: Yikes!
You're most certainly welcome! Glad to be of assistance while you're attempting to rescue an article like this. Cheers! :) -- WikHead (talk) 16:59, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Louis Epstein: "[T]he Wikipolicy of treating lack of originality as if it were a positive thing is something I am cordially hostile to."
The more I reflect on this, the more reprehensible it seems. What utter arrogance.

I don't like the rules. But, since you misguided folks somehow have a wider audience than I normally get, I want my information included in your project, whose rules I find "repulsive". [Query: where's the cordiality in the descriptor "repulsive"?] So I'll violate the rules and disrupt the project. There, there, it'll all be for the best. Surely, you understand that expertise is more important than consensus.

Actually, Louie, I don't. And stop calling me Shirley. David in DC (talk) 17:17, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Expertise is definitely more important than consensus.And where longevity verification is concerned,my correspondent network,the Gerontology Research Group,and other allies represent the highest standard of expertise in the world while the Wikipedia rule enforcement process glorifies consensus.And claiming we are unreliable while totally unable to find anyone more reliable personifies "utter arrogance".--L.E./12.144.5.2 (talk) 20:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing, Lou.
 * Cordially,
 * David in DC (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's a very bad idea...
for a new list.

Longevity arbitration
Thanks for your comments; this is a subject I'm mildly interested in, and I could tell before this went to arbitration that there were serious problems. You and Itsmejudith seem to be the most level-headed people involved in this topic now, so you definitely deserve some commendation for your role. I figured that the subject area could use a fresh voice, and I could tell from the beginning that it would require someone experienced with separating arguments from ranting; being a history major, that's much of what my work consists of. I'm not one to get intimidated, and I can handle people's venting, so I keep my talkpage open; otherwise, I doubt I'd have gotten that rather informative (in all seriousness) message from Ryoung122. It's nice to know that I've been helpful, and once this case finishes I might start doing some content work on longevity. Thanks again for your comments, and keep up the good work!! The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 02:24, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

RE: Scooter Braun
Hi, I added citations where you had requested they be in the article Scooter Braun. Inquiring if you could remove the citation needed tags. Cheers Bped1985 (talk) 05:57, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Cabal
"A cabal is a number of people greater than two together in some close design, usually to promote their private views and interests in a church, state, or other community, often by intrigue. Cabals are sometimes secret societies composed of a few designing persons, and at other times are manifestations of emergent behavior in society or governance on the part of a community of persons who have well established public affiliation or kinship. The term can also be used to refer to the designs of such persons or to the practical consequences of their emergent behavior, and also holds a general meaning of intrigue and conspiracy. Its usage carries strong connotations of shadowy corners, back rooms and insidious influence; a cabal is more evil and selective than, say, a faction, which is simply selfish; because of this negative connotation, few organizations use the term to refer to themselves or their internal subdivisions. Amongst the exceptions is Discordianism, in which the term is used to refer to an identifiable group within the Discordian religion" --- lede graf of Cabal entry on en.wikipedia.

I may be a wrong-headed, egotistical, homophobic, anticentenarian, antisupercentenarian, interest-conflicted, anti-porn, deletionist wise guy. I'm not, but I think that's a rough catalogue of the various incivil accusations spewn in my direction, of late. Homophobic really pissed me off.

But this cabalist thing is way beyond tolerable. Read the effing definition. Note the words intrigue, secret, conspiricy, back rooms, insidious influence, and evil.

Honest to goodness, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong alone. Reading the WOP proposed deletion list and weighing in on the AfD's listed there doth not a conspiracy make. I agree with JJB more often than I disagree, but if you compare our edits, you'll see disagreement occasionally. You'll also see me try to rescue a couple of articles --- succeeding twice and failing once. Theirs, Farris-Muse, and one of the Japanese centenarians. I'm not providing diffs here, and probably misrendering some names, because I'm not going to footnote my own effing rant.

I am part of no cabal and I am no one's #2 (except maybe my wife, if I know what's good for me.) <--- Assistance for the humor-impaired: The parenthetical is what's called a joke. It plays on the comedic trope of matriarchy.

Please accuse me of something other than nefarious conspiracy. Thanks. David in DC (talk) 13:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Kudos
Although many at this particular AfD have questioned the nomination, the spotlight you put on the article improved it, with much credit given to your own work, from this to this. At the end of the day this is a major improvement, so thank you. --Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 04:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I second the kudos to you, David in DC. It's particularly impressive to change courses and be flexible based on new information. I'd award you a barnstar but it wouldn't be big enough to fit on your page. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Update: figured out how to fit it: --Tomwsulcer (talk) 21:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Cabalist
Saying you are hurt by the comments is 'off-wiki' and irrelevant. Not that many people actually care about whether or not you are hurt by the cabalism accusations, you know. That's the harsh reality. You continue attempting to destroy supercentenarian-related articles, just like BrownHairedGirl did to List of Belgian supercentenarians. Despite your claims of well-meaning, it is clear from edits on pages like this that you do NOT mean well for those articles, seeing non-existent WP:MOSBOLD violations.

Please behave. →  Bre  nd an  13:37, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for sharing your point of view. In my opinion, the fact that I am hurt by a false statement about me is relevant to WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and a host of other rules ArbCom will be opining upon at some point in the future. Not everyone is as equananimous about incivility as our colleague BNL. (The welcome at the top of his talk page is exemplary --- a sight to behold.) I aspire to his level of equanimity, but I have not achieved it. So if I aver, on-wiki, that a false attack hurts my feelings, and that its near-ubiquitous reiteration rubs salt in the open wound, I'm hard-pressed to understand your claim of off-wiki irrelevancy.
 * The fact that the cabalist charge is 100% false is, I grant, a greater violation of our norms, guidelines and policies than hurting my feelings. But hurting my feelings by reiterating a calumny is not irrelevant. And your denomination of it as "off-wiki" truly mystifies me. Where, pray tell, am I being lied about? On-wiki. Where am I complaining of it? On-wiki. I'm left dumbstruck.
 * The claim that I'm a member of a cabal whose purpose is detrimental to our shared collaborative project is, as I've said, of far greater moment. It's a lie. WP:BLP applies to me every bit as much as it applies to the subjects of our articles. (That's why I collapsed the talk page entries where our colleague RY called me a homophobe.) A cabal meets in secret, for nefarious purposes. It's evil. Or at least that's what it says here. I am a participant in no cabal. I read the proposed articles for deletion listed in the chart on the WOP talk page, and I participate. I'm a member of the WikiProject and hope some day it functions as a WikiProject should. The chart on the talk page has led me (and other editors) to rescue several centenarian articles. It's led to consensus decisions to delete others. That's how the system is supposed to work.
 * You're completely wrong about MOS:BOLD editing, too. You must be confusing me with someone else. I have MOS:FLAG concerns, but I made one edit along those lines, was reverted by a tender of your WP:WALLEDGARDEN, and concluded I had better things to do with my volunteer time than argue about flags. But your carelessness with the accusation is symptomatic. I've raised the MOS:FLAG issue with a single edit, and backed off after being reverted. I think I'm right, but categorization by nationality, country of origin, country of birth, Japanese prefecture, Swiss canton, profession, centenarian-ness, super-centenarian-ness, super-duper-centenarian-ness, and any other categorization scheme one might devise to accrete all of this unsourced hobbyist, stub-cruft into wikipedia so many places that it will live on eternally, in "mirrors" if not on wikipedia, will be dealt with in the fullness of time. I don't feel compelled to press the issue now.
 * About being completely wrong on the MOS thing: I'll tell you directly what I've told our mutual friend LongevityDude, directly. In my opinion, your zeal occasionally overmatches your judgment. Your "style" sometimes undermines the substance of what you say. This is regrettable. Especially when you're right.
 * Your advice to behave is, of course, always good counsel. I'm mildly dismayed that you feel the need to request it, rather than suggest it, but again, so be it. I will note for the record, however, that Austin Powers says "Behave!" with substantially more panache. David in DC (talk) 22:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I confused the WP:MOSBOLD issue, the one I was talking about was WP:MOSFLAG, as you rightly pointed out.


 * And by the way, as far as Wikipedia alone is concerned, LongevityDude is NOT my "mutual friend"... please get that clear. →  Bre  nd an  12:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Brendanology, I would advise you to read what I've written here, specifically the two indented paragraphs, and seriously think about it. All you're doing is making yourself look irrational, which does nothing to help your already logically flawed arguments.  Above all, stop telling people how to behave; you aren't exactly coming from a position of valor on this issue.  As for this MOSFLAG issue; if BrownHairedGirl doesn't start an RfC in a few days, I'll do it myself if it comes to that.  She and David in DC are right on this issue, and I'm not sure why we'll have to drag it out if it's a foregone conclusion. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 04:59, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI, I've solicited some outside input at WQA, specifically Wikiquette alerts/Brendanology's comments. I'd ordinarily let this slide, but given the ongoing arbitration I think this needs some outside attention.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 08:49, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Great Quotes
I don't do Wikiquote, but if someone does, these'd be great ones to source and include:

"There's no such thing as a stranger. Just a friend I haven't met, yet". --- Will Rogers

David in DC (talk) 13:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

"Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." --- Dr. Johnson

David in DC (talk) 20:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Awesome Snidely Whiplash picture here
And funny essay to boot.

Thanks, BNL.

David in DC (talk) 13:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Difficulty Logging In
I think it has something to do with learning to toss my cookies. But in the meantime, I'm posting from this IP address exclusively. I'll give notice when I learn to purge the offending virtual pastry. 68.228.14.101 (talk) 18:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I've regained access to my account. I will resme editing from here, now. David in DC (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

At Least You Have A Sense of Humor
As we can see, outside sources such as CNN continue to consider extreme age "notable" when the age reaches a certain threshold (circa 113).

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-15/us/louisiana.oldest.african.american_1_mississippi-winn-gerontology-research-group-supercentenarians?_s=PM:US

We can also see that the Gerontology Research Group and Guinness World Records continue to be cited as notable sources in mainstream citations.

It's amazing to me how Wikipedia is like sausage-making: no one would want to see the process.

Everyone has their own little issues. Some are against flags. Some are against extreme old age as notable. Some are against bolding, some are against wiki-links for years of birth and death.

Some believe that Noah lived to 950, and is thus oppposed to secular mainstream scientific consensus that such ages are mythical (not to mention the idea that the entire Earth flooded).

To me, the biggest current issues are false charges. I'll agree to drop the "cabalist" accusation. What I meant by that is that certain editors e-mail other editors privately to recruit them for an AFD. The editors that show up on an AFD are often not random, unbiased persons.

By the way, JJBulten was "concluding" ArbCom discussions. Since when did a party to a dispute get to be the judge too? Who is calling out the misbehavior of JJB?

Too often, as in a football game, referees respond to the "response", not the initial provocation.

I am taking a wiki-break. I don't agree with a lot of your editing, and most of all with your mixing issues, but I realize that you can sometimes be reasonable. And for that I'm willing to work with trying to tone down the current situation. Ryoung 122 00:09, 18 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing. It's fitting that my edit summary be about chronology.David in DC (talk) 00:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Please stop attacks on the GRG
I find it incredulous that the Gerontology Research Group is used as a reliable source by the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, CNN, etc., yet you continue to violate Wiki policy by mislabelling the GRG as "unreliable" and using put-down terms such as "data dump."

Seriously, you are in error and in violation of Wiki policy and I will open a discussion with the Wikimedia Foundation if this continues. Ryoung 122 18:03, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Question: isn't GRG a primary source? Wikipedia likes secondary sources. Wondering.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Seriously, I think the biggest problem here is one of misunderstanding terms. The word "reliable", as defined in a standard dictionary, may well apply to the raw data compiled by the Gerontology Research Group and hosted online at grg.org. I take no stand on its reliability, in the generic sense of that word. What I'm talking about is the phrase "reliable source", as that term is defined in the rules which govern wikipedia.


 * Seriously, I beseech thee, "...open a discussion with the Wikimedia Foundation if this continues." But please, I beg of you, stop threatening to do so. The action, by your logic, is almost mandatory. Over time, your catalog of my evil-doing seems comprehensive and voluminous. If I'm the editor you describe, you must inform the authorities. But the repeated threat, without action, treads fairly close to the "no legal threats" rule. It also grow tedious. In some ears, it sounds like bullying. In others, just pathetic.


 * It also seriously undermines all of the arguments you've made in the normal course of dispute resolution. If those arguments are valid, they will carry the day in any resolution. No appeal to the Foundation will be needed. If, perchance, your arguments do not carry the day, after you've exhausted your routinely available remedies and appeals, you can always make an appeal to the Foundation thereafter, explaining why the result reached in the ordinary course of dispute resolution is so divergent from the proper result that the Foundation must act.


 * Seriously, a "raw data dump" is a data set before it's been analyzed, synthesized, and interpreted. On en.wikipedia, you can't go to this data set, and then analyze, synthesize and report your findings. It violates WP:NOR, WP:SYN, and the guidance of WP:TERTIARY. Somebody has to take that secondary step and some reliable source, as the term is defined here on en.wikipedia, must publish it.


 * Seriously, aren't you on wikibreak?


 * Seriously, I find it incredible that you still do not know the difference between "incredible" and "incredulous." One might say I'm incredulous about it. At least one might say so if one had mastered the difference. David in DC (talk) 19:47, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Edit conflict. Tom's hit the nub of the problem. David in DC (talk) 19:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * David, Let me put it this way. People send cases (apply) to the GRG list. We currently have over 1600 cases accepted and more than 600 pending. Pending means someone sent us something on a case but we either do not have enough evidence to accept as validated, or the case has not yet been processed.


 * The data being sent is the "raw" data. The data being displayed on the GRG lists is not raw data; it is processed data. Not anyone can add it. Right now, Dr. Coles is the only person on the GRG website that actually adds data. I am the top advisor as to what to add next.


 * So, stop with the "raw data dump." Those words are a misrepresentation at best, and intentionally negative. Ryoung 122  18:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing. David in DC (talk) 19:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Longevity arbitration
Having a Japanese moment now, are we? The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 22:01, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment on Wikiproject WOP
When you make comments like this:

this still-birth of a wikiproject.

you are being counterproductive. The project (not founded by me) has moved forward and is operational.

Check the history, who started it? Ryoung 122 21:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)


 * As always, thanks for sharing David in DC (talk) 22:19, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible...
to cast true aspersions? I think "false aspersions" is redundent. David in DC (talk) 23:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request
You might be able to expedite this expeditiously. As I describe here, it appears Cam46136 inadvertently deleted a lot of comments from WT:WOP by accidentally editing from an old version. I identify the solution as being to restore the version just before Cam46136's, readd Cam46136's one paragraph to that version, and discount your interim changes as already present in the old version. If this makes sense, it's a two-minute repair of an unconscious WP:TALKO violation, and I'd appreciate it if you could carry it out, as I am not editing the page. (No comment, of course, as to how often I've made such repairs myself, and I don't mean Itsmejudith's edit conflict today either.) Thanks! JJB 01:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm as reluctant as you to undertake fixing this error. Especially after discovering that more than IMJ's post has been disappeared. Some evidence of behavior at the crux of the ArbCom case has also been disappeared. So I've made this request on the workshop talk page. David in DC (talk) 12:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Typing in ALL CAPS
"Typing in all capital letters on the Internet is considered rude because it is difficult to read and comes across as very aggressive (LIKE SHOUTING!)" It can get you fired. "Online TYPING IN ALL CAPS is considered shouting and is frowned on in most cases."

All caps: "With the advent of the internet, all caps became closely identified with "shouting" or attention-seeking behaviour. As a result, netiquette generally discourages the use of all caps when posting messages online. However, in cases where it is not possible to bold text, all caps can be used as an alternative to bolding." A word, to the wise, is sufficient. To a dolt even a thousand words are not. David in DC (talk) 22:01, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

If I ever...
post am essay like this which castigates some other editor for posting "reams" of material, as this essay does, please find the nearest large trout and use it in the manner in which G-d intended it to be used. David in DC (talk) 13:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity
An arbitration case regarding Longevity has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
 * 1) Standard discretionary sanctions are enacted for all articles related to Longevity (broadly interpreted);
 * 2) is indefinitely prohibited from editing, commenting on, or otherwise participating in any Wikipedia process related to articles about longevity (broadly interpreted);
 * 3) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year;
 * 4) WikiProject World's Oldest People is urged to seek experienced Wikipedia editors who will act as mentors to the project and assist members in improving their editing and their understanding of Wikipedia policies and community norms;
 * 5) Within seven days of the conclusion of this case, all parties must either delete evidence sub-pages in their user space or request deletion of them using the db-author or db-self template.

For the Arbitration Committee, AGK  [&bull; ] 22:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

The least surprising topic-ban violation in the history of the world...
has prompted this request for enforcement.
 * AGK's "close as not actionable" nevertheless includes an important admonition. It would be good if it were heeded. "I concur that this request is not immediately actionable because Ryoung's comment was not unquestionably related to Longevity (from which he is topic-banned). But it is clear why the filing party could argue that the comment did constitute a topic-ban violation, and I would accordingly caution Ryoung against attempting to evade his topic-ban by means of a comment on an unrelated venue (such as his talk page). Editors who are topic-banned often find that leniency is rarely showed by administrators in complaints about ban evasion, and Ryoung must be especially careful that he is never participating in a discussion relating to longevity. That aside, this complaint is not actionable, and so I will with this edit close this thread. AGK [•] 17:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)"

David in DC (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

PC
Hi,

I have replied directly below your comment, in Pending changes/Request for Comment February 2011. Just wanted to mention it here, so it does not get lots in all the other discussion. Cheers,  Chzz  ► 11:36, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You're right, I wouldn't have wanted to miss that. You rock!
 * Still laughing at the Alice counter-reference,
 * David in DC (talk) 13:48, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Glad it was informative. Re. "Clarification" - nah; no problem at all! Re. "Start a section" - mmm, well, I'll see what happens there, for now. Unlike some others, I think a poll would be a very bad idea (that link is oh-so-relevant), and I don't mind at all that that page is getting long; discussion is a Good ThingTM. Thanks again, for taking the trouble to contribute to the debate; your thoughtful opinions and open-mindedness are exactly what we need.  Chzz  ► 00:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Boldest people
Not surprisingly, User:Brendanology reverted your edit to Oldest people, where you had removed some bolding citing WP:MOS, without bothering to justify it in an edit summary. I'm a little more optimistic of a peaceful resolution by starting here. I looked through the MOS but didn't see any discussion of bolding to support your edit. Can you tell me where to look there? Personally, I think the bolding is good to help readers identify the living supercentenarians if their browser (or eyes, or text reader) is not able to properly render the highlighting. My understanding is that similar supplementation is done in other tables. Matchups 15:27, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. MOS:BOLD. Most especially "Use boldface in the remainder of the article only in a few special cases:" None of the bullets fit. See also "Contraindications" in the same section. David in DC (talk) 18:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Re-reading MOS:BOLD I also see that even where bolding IS appropriate, it shouldn't be done with the "three-appostrophe" style of coding.David in DC (talk) 18:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * And I've now looked at WP:LIST. Nothing there justifies it, either. David in DC (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Erna Lazarus
Just curious why you informed me about the prod and AFD since my only edit was removing the deprecated "expand" tag from it. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 19:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Overcaution. The number of contributing editors was so short I notified everyone who wasn't a bot. I apologize if I cluttered up your page unnecessarily. David in DC (talk) 19:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Just want to go on record that your AfD for this article was perfectly valid and appropriate (don't be chastened). If not for your AfD there would be a super crappy article (instead of a passably crappy one - it still needs work). Glad you liked my reference to paper based sources! --Quartermaster (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've responded further on your talk page. Check out the second quote, above, under "Great quotations" for an aphorism that covers what happened when I tagged this article that had been begging for sources for years. Creating the situation on purpose is disruptive and pointy. But while reviewing longevity articles, I saw the 2007 notice and genuinely couldn't find sources. The lack of sources seemed so clear to me that I put up a Prod notice and subsequent AfD. Then editors interested in entertainment solved the problem, ala Dr. Johnson. I was glad of the solution. I'm getting a rep for being a deletionist and I'm not. Just a believer that articles that exist for years without any sources impair the credibility of this whole grand, glorious, collaborative project. David in DC (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

cringe factor and AfD and stuff (AfD = Article for Deletion ... I'm trying to promote clear communication)
Hey, one of my favorite experiences has to do with a a Proposed Deletion (PROD) of one of my personally favourite musical groups, Tupelo Chainsex. I had to actually apply wikipedia notability rules/guidelines/rumours/stuff to keep it around. Taught me a lot about the whole idea of wikipedia. It's not a contest, it's a process. Be bold. Don't cringe. Think. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong. And who knows which is which? We all do our best in good faith. When you stimulate the processes you're improving the encyclopaedia. --Quartermaster (talk) 00:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

A minor note
I happened to see you reject this. Just an FYI (and if you already know this I apologize), that page is plagued by a banned user, Gerald Gonzalez, who even has his own LTA page for exactly those types of edits. If you see that happen again, you can immediately report it to AIV. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 06:21, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Holy Cow. Not proof, but a genuinely timely anecdote about the benefit of PC. I had no idea. The edit simply made my crap detector tingle. It spoke of the future, with no source and no edit summary. Thanks for letting me know.
 * I'm about to get slapped for, as Resident Anthropoligist, eating "popcorn, non, nom, nom". I filed an ANI about Nick, and was told to go to AE. I took the advice, but I think I thereby put myself on a conveyor belt toward a buzzsaw. It seems the uninvolved senior editors, especially of the RS-savvy flavor, don't have much interest in providing guidance. And my efforts to get Nick to curb the most egregious of his editing behavior, multiple reverts of anyone who's not an expert or their acolyte, are about to be viewed in a harsh light. RA is a very good editor. If he's mocking me, openly but with humor, I suspect its a harbinger. So thanks for the unexpected, serendipitous, and timely notification of something I did right. You rock! David in DC (talk) 11:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

IRC invitation
Because I have noticed you commenting at the current RfC regarding Pending Changes, I wanted to invite you to the IRC channel for pending changes. If you are not customarily logged into the IRC, use this link. This under used resource can allow real time discussion at this particularly timely venture of the trial known as Pending Changes. Even if nothing can come from debating points there, at least this invitation is delivered with the best of intentions and good faith expectations. Kind regards.  My 76 Strat  09:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Very kind. Thank you. I'm going "over the river and through the woods" for a few days tomorrow night. When I return, I'll take you up on this invitation. It's appreciated. David in DC (talk) 11:39, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Ref anchor
Hi David - I have no idea how to anchor the refs at the bottom of the page, but I have seen your pleas for help. Have you tried The Village Pump/Technical? There are a lot of tech saVvy editors there that could probably help come up with a solution for you. --Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 15:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a great suggestion. When I return from "over the river and through the woods" I'll do just that. Thanks. David in DC (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Request concerning NickOrnstein
Many of the diffs you present at your RfE are your edits, not NickOrnstein's. The instructions state, "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it."  If you need to provide a background, then include it in the text of your request. Generally speaking, you're not supposed to include your edits in the list of NickOrnstein's edits. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:50, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes a Cigar is Just a Cigar,
and a joke is not an olive branch. With me, it's more like a reflex. When I read the punchline to a joke, I usually cannot resist telling the joke. Sorta like Roger Rabbit with "Shave and a haircut ...." If it lightens someone's day, so much the better.

(1) I need to breathe. I need to eat. I need to drink. I need to sleep.

What someone else wants is not necessarily what I need.

A census data announcement, without more, even where the personal data is suppressed for 72 years, is about longevity. Among other things, it carries data about population growth, which informs editorial judgments about what lifespan is truly extraordinary. After less than a week of a topic ban, anyone who posts information about the release of census data, without disclaiming any connection to longevity, can be easily seen as testing the boundaries. It's why a closer of an AE case might feel it important to include in his closing:

"I concur that this request is not immediately actionable because Ryoung's comment was not unquestionably related to Longevity (from which he is topic-banned). But it is clear why the filing party could argue that the comment did constitute a topic-ban violation, and I would accordingly caution Ryoung against attempting to evade his topic-ban by means of a comment on an unrelated venue (such as his talk page). Editors who are topic-banned often find that leniency is rarely showed by administrators in complaints about ban evasion, and Ryoung must be especially careful that he is never participating in a discussion relating to longevity. That aside, this complaint is not actionable, and so I will with this edit close this thread. AGK [•] 17:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)"

(2) I concur: No biggie. David in DC (talk) 16:13, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You seem to have a problem admitting that you are sometimes WRONG. First off, if I'm not supposed to mention a word, why should I mention a word to indicate I'm not talking about that word? Second...There's a big difference between discussing Census 2010 and Census 1940. Figure it out. Ryoung 122 02:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you may have missed me quoting the Red Queen, "I sometimes think six impossible things before breakfast." Or maybe you've missed the times I've said "That's my take on it. Whaddya think. I have no corner on the wisdom market. Hell, sometimes I wonder if I even have a stall there"
 * Also, I apologize for taking 6 or seven tries at putting a simple link to this thread on your page. It clogged up your edit history. It was wrong.
 * Also.
 * If you take the time, you could find litterally hundreds of times I've admitted or acknowledged I was wrong. Heck, I've got a barnstar for it:
 * I have no difficulty admitting that I am wrong. When I am.
 * As always, thanks for sharing. David in DC (talk) 13:35, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Professor Irwin Corey
used to bill himself as "The World's Formost Expert". Does anyone else think the identifier in this edit seems similar? I'm just sayin'. David in DC (talk) 21:25, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks ...
... for fixing the hidden comment at Besse Cooper. What was I thinking?! My remaining brain cell must have flatlined when I made that edit. :) Have a great day! Cresix (talk) 19:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Happy to help. :) David in DC (talk) 01:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I've may never...
have been quite so happy to find something to agree with someone about as I've found here. David in DC (talk) 12:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

A discussion you may be interested in
See WP:Village pump (policy). This may be the chance to put that issue to bed once and for all. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 03:25, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I seem to notice your edit summaries & comment/even correct them; but I digress...
I had noticed your edit summary today about changing from BC-AD notation to the BCE-CE notation. You quoted WP:NPOV and also commented, "We're not all Christians, you know." Being curious, I went there to WP:NPOV, but for the life of me, I couldn't find anything related there. Naturally, as I dig deeper -- as always in my quest to find exactly what I'm looking for -- I noticed that this is the accurate find: Manual of Style (dates and numbers).

I noticed one bullet in the year numbering system section that stated, "Do not change from one style to another unless there is substantial reason for the change, and consensus for the change with other editors." I thought about reverting your edit, but looking at the 50,000 foot view, there was only two instances of BC vs BCE to deal with (so why should we quibble with this now, after-the-fact?). So I just am here on your own user page (only) to let you know about the better find & be aware for your future edits. Have a good weekend. Cheers, Calvin Ty 21:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a substantial reason. BC stands for Before Christ. AD stands for Anno Domini (In the year of Our Lord.) Dating anything BC or AD is dating from a Christian POV. A non-POV style exists quite specifically to avoid the Christian POV in dating. In my view, the guidance you're quoting is about 19 December 2001 vs. December 19, 2001. There, consistency should rule. But not between BC/AD and BCE/CE. In the latter case, BCE/CE is always preferable. It's non-denominational. It accords with any religion, or none at all. Dating according to Jesus' life is POV. Dating according to "The Year of Our Lord" is uber-POV. Even if one concedes the existence of a historical Jesus (which I readily concede), Christ means Messiah. I don't concede that. And "Our Lord" excludes me, a bunch of athiests, and Muslims, Taoists, Zoroastrians and Wiccans galore, just to name a few. David in DC (talk) 01:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Your observation has led me to make a bold edit to the MOS. David in DC (talk) 02:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * CT, You Rock! Check this out. This is exactly the way collaborative editing is supposed to work. I'll be looking for sources. But in the meantime, the issue is out on the table, on talk pages, for editors to work out a new consensus (or not). David in DC (talk) 14:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, you should get the credit for a good discussion you initiated at the MOS (dates and numbers) talk page. I fully understand your point of view, and I certainly can relate.  I am in the camp where I acknowledge both sides, and see each side's point of view, but I do not really have a thought of to a potential solution.  I mean, no matter how we want to avoid it, but using "2011" in our current Gregorian calendar is rooted from Christianity.  For those who live in USA, most of our monetary pieces have the words "In God We Trust" on it.  Do we change that -- some would say "yes, definitely, there is no place for it in a melting pot country such as USA", while others would say "that phrase is used in a historical sense" quoting our founding fathers -- so that's one other example where religion is intertwined into our society even though many people do not share the same religion views.  I am a Star Trek fan (and love science & astronomy) -- I wish we could change to a Stardate-like calendar, perhaps based on universal time, shortened more specifically to our solar system time, something to that effect.  :-)  That way, it does not offend any denomination or religion as we all would be on "Earth time".  I guess I just offered up a solution, LOL, but alas, it'd take tremendous change and still manage to get heavy resistance from many sides.  Like, "how and when do we convert from Gregorian calendar to this new Earth calendar??"   Bleh.  Nice heavy dose of thoughts on an early Monday morning.  Cheers, Calvin Ty  11:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm all for solving this by analogy to Star Trek. In Kirk's century, they went where no man had gone before. In Picard, Sisko and Janeway's century, they went where no one had gone before. But then we'd also be stuck with the thorny issue that, in both centuries, they boldly split infinitives where no infinitives had been splat before. I'd also like to see "In God We Trust" stricken from US coins. But I'd settle for amendment: "In God We Trust - All Others Pay Cash" I'm sure the coinage problem will be solved when the whole galaxy adopts Quadloos as the coin of the realm. :)
 * Live long, and prosper,
 * David in DC (talk) 16:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

A bit of fun
I saw that the 110 club threads with our usernames mysteriously vanished some time ago; what they didn't seem to realize is that Google has a cached version of everything. I dunno, I'm actually enjoying reading about what a bad person I am. I had to laugh when someone questioned how we were living with ourselves. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 15:15, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I strive for your level of equanimity. The fact that some of the nonsense is so far over-the-top helps.
 * The thing that really rankles me most is the indoctrination of children, by adults, into a mindset that leaves no room for compromise and no respect for the rules of a collaborative project.
 * I must concede that, as far as equanimity goes, my reach still exceeds my grasp. But I'll keep trying. Thanks for the example you set with your unflappable calm and sense of perspective. At different times, I've had occasion to tell LongevityDude and Nick that I fear their zeal sometimes outstrips their judgment. With the flags, I fear mine did. We're right, but I moved precipitously. I think I was well within policy, but by moving quickly I took one step forward that led to two steps back, at least in the short run.
 * Still, i'm having no problem living with myself. My 13-year-old has some trouble living with myself but, developmentally, that's as it should be. :) David in DC (talk) 16:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I got a little impetuous on the flag issue myself, so you're not alone. Things should start to calm down a bit once we can get MOSFLAG clarified once and for all.  It's going the right direction, it's just a matter of when. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 17:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I've made a proposal here. Please join the discussion. David in DC (talk) 18:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * BNL, regarding The 110 Club forum, just to fill you in as you appear to be behind in the news, I am an administrator over there. I gave a lengthy reply here on 5 March 2011 about The 110 Club (actually, the original diff would be this).  To sum up here, for a very long time, The 110 Club was far too transparent for several threads, including predictions of the current living supercentenarians, fellow members misbehaving on the forum, as well as having discussions/opinions about other people that several people including myself was very uncomfortable with.  The founder of the forum agreed, and the changes took effect in the middle of that RfE against Nick causing some admins here to signal "Red Alert!" when it was a matter of unfortunate timing.  I even pointed out that Google cache would still show old threads but that the goal is to give respect to living supercentenarians as well as other living people, including you two here (BNL and DinDC).  Please feel free to let me know if there are any old threads that show up in Google Cache that you feel are disrepecting you, then I will move them to the private section of the forum.  Usually, Google Cache -- after a period of time -- cannot access those private threads and no longer display the cache as well.  Just letting you know, BNL.  Cheers, Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  14:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for repeating your explanation, CT. You seem to be less reviled than I am. Do you have any thoughts about this part of my posting up above: "The thing that really rankles me most is the indoctrination of children, by adults, into a mindset that leaves no room for compromise and no respect for the rules of a collaborative project."? Can you think of anything that might be done about it? If my WP:FLAGBIO proposal is accepted, as seems likely, I fear efforts to bring the longevity pages into compliance will lead to additional kerfuffles. (I just love that word. It's not exactly onamatapoetic, but it does sound like what it means.) Do you think you might be able to successfully counsel outraged editors about following the rules? Would you be inclined to? David in DC (talk) 15:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha, I noticed your love for the word kerfuffles. I quickly saw your concern above and as well as at Amatulic's talk page.  I noticed that Nick has appeared to mind his own business editing other parts of the articles while you have worked on clean-ups (footnotes, citations, etc).  I'm trying to give him and other editors credit in understanding that there is a growing consensus for a change regarding flag icons.  I personally am more convinced that sortable tables would be a key tool for longevity lists (without flag icons), thanks to Andrwsc's suggestion to you here.  I may even suggest to restore the column of "place of birth", because, in longevity, it's important to note where the living people hail from, considering the likelihood  of genetics being involved.  Actors such as Bruce Willis are not affected by longevity (he still has quite long way to go, haha, though actress Betty White is getting up there).  So, yes, correct, Bruce Willis being "born in Germany" has no bearing on "who" he is, but that is not applicable here.  While Dina Manfredini, age 114, has lived in Iowa for many years, but she has strong Italian roots as she was born there.  Right now, that information is in a "tiny footnote".  It does not truly show that she is one of many Italian-born supercentenarians on the current living list right now.  Italy has 15 supercentenarians living on the list, but really has 16 because of Dina Manfredini.  A sortable list would allow a reader to see how many people from each country are showing up.
 * Regarding what I can do to counsel others, the 110 Club is still a public forum and members are free to express their opinions (but telling them to discuss any opinions about living people in a private section) so I'm not sure what I can really do to counsel them. If it's about a discussion here, I try to provide my train of thought here, not over there.   That way, I can use various diffs to show policies, guidelines, discussions, and so forth.  Plus, if editors here misbehave, I am out of my element as admins here can take action or other editors can make a RfE.  What would you suggest I can do?  Cheers,<font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  15:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest you counsel anyone you think might heed your advice about potential consequences for misbehavior and about trying to change rules rather than blithely (and sometimes quite loudly and proudly) flouting them. Off-wiki, I've always found that such counsel is best delivered privately, one-on-one. Indeed, one of my favorite bits of managerial advice is "Praise publicly, criticize privately." David in DC (talk) 15:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * @Calvin; I don't actually mind it, it's no big deal. I've got a YouTube account as well under a different name, and I've been called far worse things there.  It just goes with the territory of being on the Internet.  Don't worry. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 17:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The 110 Club was founded by two 18-year-olds in 2007. Your accusations of "indoctrinating children" is NOT assuming good faith. It was the KIDS that came up with FLAG ICONS on longevity articles, not the adults. It was the KIDS that created the longevity lists on Wikipedia, the adults were making lists outside Wikipedia. It's not just that you see the glass half-empty; you think the glass is upside down when you are standing on your head. Get some FACTS before making defamatory innuendos. Ryoung 122 22:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As always, RY, thanks for sharing. You're sort of the gift that keeps on giving.
 * BTW, are you supposed to be editing pages with discussion of longevity-related topics? Because this is a page, and you are editing it with reference to longevity topics.
 * Just in case you aren't supposed to be doing that, but feel compelled to watch my talk page, and respond, it might be safer for you to e-mail me, as you once did on the topic of Paul Baltes. The email function on my talk page is enabled. If for some reason that doesn't work, I'll be happy to send you an e-mail, so you've got my address. I've still got yours. You have but to ask.
 * Also, as far as English style and usage go, I think one "makes" insinuations, but I don't think one "makes" innuendos. Besides, innuendos are subtle and nuanced, capable of more than one interpretation, but insinuating the more (or the most) negative one. In contrast, I've written my opinion quite clearly, free of insinuation or innuendo "The thing that really rankles me most is the indoctrination of children, by adults, into a mindset that leaves no room for compromise and no respect for the rules of a collaborative project."
 * Nope. No subtlety, nuance, insinuation or innuendo there. I may be factually wrong, but I don't think the opinion I've written on my talk page includes innuendo or insinuation. Nor does it identify any particular adults or children. Perhaps you've got a touch of Shoefitz syndrome. If so, I hope you're feeling better soon.
 * XXXOOOXXX
 * Your devoted correspondent,
 * David in DC (talk) 17:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * David in DC (talk) 17:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

And now I've managed to walk into another snakepit here as well. It's even worse over there; kinda puts this little brushfire into perspective. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 19:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow. Just, wow. I've seen the plea for you to help coax that horrible DiDC character to tone done his casting of aspersions. Good luck with that. :) David in DC (talk) 21:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps in some parallel universe, this would be encyclopedic
Wanna see something silly? Check it out. David in DC (talk) 20:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Funny you should mention something like that; I was actually going to respond to your point about adults teaching kids how to not collaborate here by showing you this little gem I found on Talk:List of living supercentenarians some days ago. Kinda along the same lines. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 03:04, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I haven't dealt much w/Williamb. At least not that I recall. Good for Nick. He was trying to do the right thing there. An important reminder for me that good editor/bad editor is not a binary toggle switch. David in DC (talk) 08:02, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Apologies
I apologize for my delay in reacting to your note on my talk page about Ryoung122's topic ban. After a couple days of no further activity from Ryoung122, I thought it might be inappropriate to block, so I asked another admin for advice. In the meantime, you filed a WP:AE report, Ryoung122 has been blocked, case closed. All that was left for me to do is collapse his comment on your MOSICON proposal. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. No harm, no foul. I'll go straight to AE next time, and no doubt be criticized for failing to try to work things out one-on-one first. David in DC (talk) 21:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In general, you should try to resolve issues one-on-one first but in this particular case, Ryoung122 has already been topic-banned by ArbCom. You would not have been criticized if you went straight to AE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:25, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I was last time. Closed as non-actionable. But get a look at the closing note. Kinda funny language for a non-actionable closing. David in DC (talk) 03:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the difference between the two is that the first was debatable and the second one was a clear-cut violation. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I understand your point. In my view, closing as non-actionable, with the closing language including exactly the remedy requested, causes some cognitive dissonance. But it's nothing I won't get over. I appreciate your taking the time and interest to counsel me about this. David in DC (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

He wasn't dead?
No, but he wasn't at all a well cat. David in DC (talk) 12:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Holly Robinson Peete
??? What is wrong with the Holly Robinson Peete source? If you dont like it, did you venture to find one you do like? & if you are going to reject that one thing fine. But did you look as the other edits? Quotes around teh book title in the lead, moving the kids DOBS to the personal section, the info about her graduating? If thisis a collaborative effort, why do I constantly see admins reject and revert, but not AIDE by also researching to better the article? And what did you mean about CAPS lock? I dont have it on. 69.140.66.37 (talk) 20:50, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * First off, I hear your frustration and I'm sorry. I'll try to explain myself and hope you'll understand it's not a personal thing.
 * www.tastybrand.com is not a reliable source. By that I mean it doesn't comply with the rules found here. So any information you attribute to that site's Holly Robinson Peete page will be rejected.
 * http://www.apbspeakers.com fails the same test.
 * The material in the 1st paragraph under the "Career" heading is attributed to no source at all. WP:BLP, the rules about biographies of living people are especially strict about sourcing.
 * WP:INHERIT says, in most imporant part, that notability is not inherited. So we include info about people's children, but not much of it, and not in the lead paragraph.
 * The All Caps thing was referring to this: "STOP DECLINING". Fairly or not, it's treated as shouting, and it discredits you.
 * Having explained all of that, let me alsoi say that it's important for me to follow WP:BITE, which I've obiously failed to do. Please read it, and please accep my apology for your feeling bitten.
 * I'd be happy to talk some more about all this, but my wife just yelled at me for the 3rd time for ignoring a hot dinner to finish writing this.
 * Please check out the references I've given and please keep at it. As I said, I'll be happy to help and regret how my actions have hurt your feelings.
 * to be continued. David in DC (talk) 23:10, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Thank You for your help and reply. I definitely was and am frustrated. Many times my edits are reverted for the reason 'needs better source'. Yet all the admins dont help in getting a better source. 1) In the lead I wasnt including info on her children. I edited to italicise the book title as is standard.

2) I am saying take the children's info from the infobox and put in down below in the personal section.

3) Early Life: HRP has been out since 1969. Since then it was known and for 30yrs now it has been known that she graduated from Sarah Lawrence. Isn't this common knowledge now? Isn't it like public domain knowledge because everyone knows she is an alum? For example, on Madonna (entertainer)'s, there is no source for her haveing graduated from St Andrew & St Frederick's Elementary, nor from West Middle School. But since Madonna has been known since 1982-28 years now!-we know that she did graduate from those primary schools b/c that info was in her bio time and time again since she came out. Does that make sense?  I mean it is common knowledge that Madonna graduated from those primary schools, just as it is common knowledge that Hilary graduated from Wellesley/Yale, and the Obamas from Harvard Law. On many sites her SL psych/french degree is part of her bio bc it was on her acting credentials and info about her on her various wrteups and tv shows in her 30yrs career. Tasty Brand is an interview she gave, why is it not allowed? On Hilary Clinton's page, her graduating from Wellesley College is sourced by her own speech ; so both ladies are giving out info on themselves: how are the 2 different? The speakers bureau vets it employees, so why is it too not allowed? They(ABP) have to make sure those who they are advertising for speaking in exchange for $ are in fact what they present themselves to be, or else those who hire ABP could sue for lying/false advertising.

4) Career: What I added isn't original research. She stated in interviews last fall promoting her new show that she was fresh out of college and got her first acting job. She repeated this on a rerun of The Talk that I saw. I didn't formulate it.

I was shouting when I wrote 'STOP DECLINING'. I feel the other editor should have looked and partially accepted some of the edits (moving her kids info from the infobox, italicising the book title) instead of the whole thing being rejected. & of course the editor has locked their talk page and discussion page so they can't be written to for help. How is that allowed? 69.140.66.37 (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I feel just like Sally Field
If this were enlarged and published in a reliable source, I think it would make me, or at least my avatar, notable. David in DC (talk) 23:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Aggravating edit summary
This edit summary is close to the line demarcating violation of ArbCom sanctions. I'll leave it to others to decide on which side of that line it is. But it surely rankles. David in DC (talk) 22:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Invitation to take part in a study
I am a Wikipedian, who is studying the phenomenon on Wikipedia. I need your help to conduct my research on about understanding "Motivation of Wikipedia contributors." I would like to invite you to Main Study. Please give me your valuable time, which estimates about 20 minutes. I chose you as a English Wikipedia user who made edits recently through the RecentChange page. Refer to the first page in the online survey form for more information on the study and me.cooldenny (talk) 01:59, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for the invite. David in DC (talk) 02:18, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

INAPPROPRIATE linking in edit summary
Regarding your edit summary here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_oldest_living_people_by_nation&diff=425738848&oldid=425667812

Your link to the article "Blow job" is irrelevant to the use of the word "sucks", given the context in which you used it, as well as highly inappropriate.

If you make another inappropriate and irrelevant link to this kind of article, I am reporting YOU to ANI without further delay.

Consider this your first and last warning from me with regards to the above mentioned matter. →  Bre  nd an  14:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing, my friend. Please review the wikilinked word "for" to learn the etymology of the phrase as a technical musical term coined by songwriter Harry Chapin in connection with a critique of the ouvre of Donnie and Marie Osmond. David in DC (talk) 16:55, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Your link is not constructive. It does not justify at all your link to the word "sucks" in your edit summary. I'm not sure many people would take well to offensive edits. →  Bre  nd an  12:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I bow to your superior understanding of and experience with offensive edits. Thanks for the constructive critique. David in DC (talk) 18:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Rotary phones
Hi, I saw your userbox on rotary telephones and realized that you are likely at least my age. If so, I think we're both in the right tail of Wikipedia's population age distribution. I'm also old enough to remember black and white television (with tubes, not transistors), "hi fi" monaural recordings, and tail fins on cars. I'll be 50 this year. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:29, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Excerpt from CDC 2003 Table 1.pdf|thumb|right|2003 US mortality ([[life table|life]]) table, Table 1, Page 1]] And I'll be 49 next month. My wife's an actuary and assures me that the probability is high that you and I are not yet near our omega.David in DC (talk) 18:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ...but only if I take better care of my health! ~Amatulić (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Articles needing additional references


A tag has been placed on Articles needing additional references, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

there is a category that shows what pages need references

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Crazymonkey1123 (Jacob) T or M/Sign mine 17:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

List of living supercentenarians
Hi there - you would appear to know more about the subject than me, so I hope you don't mind my approaching you rather than the IP address. The individual at the top of the list of "validated living supercentenarians" appears to have changed since last time I checked - from Besse Cooper to Maria Gomes Valentim. Is this individual verified? I've never seen her on the list until now and am very suspicious that she appears to have been so recently confirmed. Perhaps it is true, but it seems very strange that she's just popped to the top of the list...

The fact that this individual is not linked, makes me equally suspicious. Any ideas? Thanks for your input. Bobo. 15:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Bobo192, yes, Maria Gomes Valentim has been confirmed by Guinness World Records as the new oldest living person here. The concern is understandable since this was a rare case of a newly validated case that actually made her the new World's Oldest Person.  Cheers, <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  15:57, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Much laughs - I didn't even know of the existence of the template! Thank you for removing my confusion! Bobo. 19:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * @BoBo: I can't add anything beyond CalvinTy's answer.
 * @Calvin: Man, I love that Snidely Whiplash template! :). (Update: Bummer, I just looked. The jaguar is nowhere near as funny a template as the prior Snidely Whiplash icon.)
 * I recently posted a concern on a longevity talk page about whether sources frankly labelled as not having been updated since 2007 or 2009 remain reliable. I've referenced the same concern in a couple of recent edit summaries. This example illustrates the reason I was concerned, at least as to ordinal rankings of living people. Ms. Valentime was surely alive when some of these sources were last updated. But she appears on none of them. So while the sources are accurate about what GRG knew in 2007 or 2009, they are not accurate in 2011. Why are they reliable sources for a wikipedia article? David in DC (talk) 19:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I saw someone, perhaps BNL, using the talk page stalker template, and I thought it was humorous. I hadn't seen the opportunity to use it yet until now.  :-)  When I first saw the page, it already talked about the jaguar -- oh, I see what you mean, yes, I saw that icon as well but Feezo decided to remove it.
 * I understand your concern about stale sources, although this case is actually not an example of that concern. Brazil was known for extreme longevity claims (115-125 years old) so legitimate claims did not come into the picture (perhaps because there wouldn't be any motivation to do so, considering several other older claims).  Only after some of the longevity researchers found this case in an online 2010 article, they had to actually contact the family to collect proper documentation to validate this case.  So Ms. Valentim was nowhere on anyone's radar back in 2009.  Back to your concern, I try to find current online sources but GRG is using ancient technology and limited manpower so it can be a challenge.  Though, sources do not have an expiration date, really.  As long as we are not using those specific stale pages for CURRENT cases, I'm not sure what else can be done.  Cheers, <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  20:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "I try to find current online sources but GRG is using ancient technology and limited manpower so it can be a challenge." <--- To my admittedly biased eyes, this reads like a reason not to consider the GRG tables as reliable sources.
 * "As long as we are not using those specific stale pages for CURRENT cases, I'm not sure what else can be done." Ummm, how about not using sources with these sorts of flaws, even if it means pruning back longevity articles to those that meet wikipedia's standards. I still fail to see why it's important for these articles to be on wikipedia, other than dogged persistence by enthusiasts interested in disseminating the truth and dismayed at their inability to draw sufficient numbers of eyeballs to their GRG, OHB, Oldest in Britain, WOP Yahoo group, etc pages. I can see why they would want to use wikipedia as a web-hosting service. I can't see why the wikipedia community should abide their efforts.
 * I clearly haven't attracted a consensus for my take on this, so I'm trying to limit my longevity work to helping make the darned articles comply, at least, with the policies and guidelines about style and sourcing. And keeping an eye out for violations of WP:BLP, which is one of my biggest areas of interest.
 * I'm writing all of this here, rather than on the longevity talk pages, because there's nothing constructive about provocatively beating a dead horse just for provocation's sake. I concede that the horse is dead. Maybe some day, consensus will change. That's my hope on CE/BCE, too. But, for now, I'm content to vent on my talk page only. As always, thanks for the congenial adulthood you bring to potentially contentious matters. David in DC (talk) 20:52, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (edited David in DC's post above with use of numbers for my reply now)
 * To my admittedly biased eyes, as long as the content being sought is present in that source, it does not have to be inside a flashy website or updated more frequently. :-)  I don't know if my example will boost my point or not, heh, but I guess it's akin to having a law book on a home office library from, say, 1961, that seems to have a particular section (that you want to cite) that is not discussed in later editions of the same law book.  You are still allowed to cite a book from 1920 (not appearing online anywhere) as long as you provide the correct citation.  So maybe GRG is like "an online book" that is not frequently updated but some content from 2007 or 2002 or whenever is still valid until OTHER reliable sources say that content is no longer true.
 * Honestly, I don't think many, if any, longevity editors have that mentality that "since GRG cannot update their stuff on a timely basis to my liking, I will use Wikipedia instead". Rather, I think since they are also researchers of various degree, they see Wikipedia as a real-time tool to update validated or potential cases on a daily basis.  It's fair to say that reporters/media do turn to Wikipedia for the "breadth of information" so it's essential that the media has not only current data, but also historical data (i.e. so they can see that a claim to age of 117 is extremely unlikely).  I think your perception of web-hosting service stems from the fact that most of us are essentially relying on ONE "international body of longevity research" (GRG; GWR do not host any lists that I am aware of).  If there were several websites hosting various longevity lists, some with different validated cases, then we would have Wikipedia articles that would be a commingling of all data for a true real-time list for all to use.  Understandably, but unfortunately, blogs or owned websites are not reliable sources so that excludes many possible sources such as OHB (Louis Epstein, an expert), Oldest in Britain (one of GRG correspondents).  This is one reason why I myself have not attempted to post longevity lists online because I knew that they were unlikely to be cited unless they were vetted and published by a third-party entity.
 * Yes, I have seen that your focus has been in the "compliance department", and as you said, WP:BLP appears to be an area of strong strength on your part. I find my strength to be more like a "reviewer" of what has been edited (or has been discussed), and that's where I tend to chime in.  I am not that good when it comes to agendas as I multi-task all the time, so I don't have that mentality like "okay, today, I'm going to update List of Belgian supercentenarians".  I see plenty of name-space articles that need improvement, but I find myself more attuned to discussions on how to improve them (rather than actually boldly editing them, oops).
 * I also appreciate that you do acknowledge that the consensus has not yet supported your minority views, but we all know that consensus can change over time. Just as in real life and online in other formats, one of my strengths is to get people to discuss their views in a congenial manner. From the beginning, I saw that you were willing and able to listen to different points of view -- I don't know the history of JJB, but from what I read, I think it appears to be his flaw in where he had a very staunch position that he consistently wouldn't budge in the eyes of the arbitrators (thus his 1-year total ban).  I myself do wonder: if I was around in those several months, would I have been able to meditate JJB's views with other editors?  Would I have been able to prevent the case from going to ArbCom - or it was unlikely because of the contrast in personalities of various editors?  Just something I pondered about for a while, but it's not important nowadays.  To quote you, Happy editing!  <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  16:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

68.50.41.159
I somehow get the sense that this is a logged out user; not sure which one, but I find it very hard to believe this is someone new, given their only edits have been restoring flag icons. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 18:51, 19 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. It happened before. I filed this. I perceived a wheel war by cowardly editors hiding behind IP addresses, especially because two of the edits called me out by name, one calling me stupid. The closing admin saw no edit-warring at all but warned the one who called me stupid about WP:NPA. The wheel-warring continued, so I appealed for help from the closing admin, on his talk page. I got a rude surprise. As you can see, I was told that WP:FLAGBIO might not be binding and that I was the one who should refrain from edit-warring.
 * So I trod carefully this time, adding my voice to yours on the latest cowardly IP wheel-warrior's page, but refraining from doing what should have been done, in fear that User:Kuru might well discipline me for trying to bring the page back into compliance with the black letter guideline. I'm grateful that you had no such trepidation. I doubt we've seen the last of this. David in DC (talk) 20:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Maria Gomes Valentim, the new world’s verified oldest living person
Now we have had the interesting development of a new world’s oldest living person, Maria Gomes Valentim, of Brazil, being validated by the Guinness Book of Records. She is 114 years old having been born on July 9, 1896.

It is now becoming patently obvious that your endless destructive behaviour is becoming a major impediment to genuine researchers interested in this subject.

Don’t you think it might be time to step back and reassess what you are doing? Cam46136 (talk) 04:33, 22 May 2011 (UTC)cam46136


 * You might want to have a read through our policy on personal attacks before making any further comments; have you considered that your comment above is rather toxic? Not to mention that David in DC didn't delete it; he merely argued for its deletion.  You can carp at the admin who did delete it if you so desire. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 22:19, 22 May 2011 (UTC)


 * "Genuine researchers interested in [a] subject" who rely on wikipedia pages as anything other than a tertiary source misunderstand both the meaning of the words "genuine research" and the nature of wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit. If I caught my 13-year-old son trying to cite wikipedia on the subject of a research paper or thesis, he'd be in for a lecture about what wikipedia is and what it is not.
 * Genuine researchers work from primary and secondary sources. Some of these, on a given topic, can be found in the references section at the bottom of a wikipedia article, and sometimes in the external links.
 * That you're going looking for information about Sra. Gomes Valentim on a deleted wikipedia page, and that you proclaim this loudly and proudly, speaks volumes, if not necessarily to make the point you seem to be trying to make.
 * Please, I beseech thee, do genuine research and get it published in a scholarly article. Then a wikipedia editor can cite it in a wikipedia article. Doing it the other way around is the work of a hobbyist, generating AfD fodder. Don't you think it might be time to step back and reassess what you are doing? David in DC (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

FLAGBIO issues
I think I'm giving myself RSI now removing the giant amount of flags from all the list articles. I've got most of the countries down (France, Italy, and the Netherlands are left) and some of the years down (still need to do 2002-2009). Now I understand why AWB exists, and hopefully when I get access that can make things faster. Manually doing it is taking me forever. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 02:58, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The WikiProject National Archives Newsletter
The first ever WikiProject National Archives newsletter has been published. Please read on to find out what we're up to and how to help out! There are many opportunities for getting more involved. Dominic·t 21:21, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

WT:WikiProject World's Oldest People
Your input would be much appreciated. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 22:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

User:Besse Cooper fan
I'm sure this is a new user. My eye is on them. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 23:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a new campaign. An IP editor was just blocked. But it did give me a chance to use Armageddon and Supermodel wikilinks, so the morning's not a total waste. :) Please review my last dozen edits or so. Thanks. David in DC (talk) 11:46, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with them that I can see. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 21:05, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * oops, I meant check out my 12 edits or so around 11:46 yesterday. I was vandalized, filed ANI and our friend got blocked. David in DC (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah. Rather... interesting.  I too suspect something is going on off-wiki, though I haven't seen anything yet.  I do have a couple of ideas, though; I'll have a look around. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 14:03, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not sure I follow on what is interesting, BNL? That IP editor, 92.8.92.108, appears to be a prankster trying to make everyone look bad.  This IP editor made a comment against Walter Breuning (the previous World's Oldest Man) here.  Since I am an administrator at The 110 Club forum, I have checked that IP address.  There are no matches.  I note that it is a United Kingdom IP address.  I also received word from World's Oldest People Yahoo Groups moderator that the IP address is not recognized there, either.  I have no idea who this "Besse Cooper fan" avatar is, but this avatar bothered to leave me a cookie on my talk page so I'm at a loss.  Again, what campaign do you both think is going on, and what is this talk about "something is going on off-wiki", BNL?  Are either one of you seeking something that is not there?  This is really a disappointment in both of your characters thinking that there is something "grand and canvassing" going on.  BNL, I would appreciate an answer because I still would want to give a positive feedback to any future adminship you may pursue.  Much appreciated, <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  17:51, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason why I sound exasperated is because I thought the chapter of misbehavior and accusations were now far behind us (including any walled-garden accusations), considering that in the last few months I was really happy to see everyone calm down. Even at The 110 Club forum, where there are a high number of international teenagers on that forum, there have been almost *zero* talk about any Wikipedia-related stuff in months.  This is BOTH the public forum and private forum sides, mind you both.  To even assist BNL in his comment: "I do have a couple of ideas, though; I'll have a look around."  I can only see 1 link in the last few months where Wikipedia was mentioned here:  z3.invisionfree.com/The_110_Club/index.php?showtopic=2430.  Please, I beg you both, do not seek out something that is not there -- if you think you are seeing something, please enlighten me so I can once again try to assist in "putting the flames out".  Thanks, <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  18:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm just overthinking things. It'd be far from the first time that happened; due to some unrelated wiki-events (some blatant canvassing related to the overhaul of WP:NHS went on not too long ago, and I've been working with one of the editors there on a lot of wiki-business lately) my guard is higher than normal, so it's entirely possible I'm just seeing things that aren't there. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 18:13, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's understandable and only human. Even I am telling myself, "it seems like I'm now only on Wikipedia to discuss stuff rather than editing content."  Go figure.  Happy editing, <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  18:20, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's also worth noting that it's not necessarily the 110 Club-types I'd scan; it could just as easily be Anonymous trolls or the like (Anonymous is a troll-mecca of sorts), who I've had the pleasure of running into at a couple of 9/11-related article talkpages. I'm not specifically targeting the longevity people, because it's rarely that simple on the internet; I actually find the subject and its various internet fora rather interesting. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 18:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Outdent. By campaign, I meant the September 1 edits of 92.8.92.108 and the very similar edits by 92.8.82.170, on August 25. When BNL brought a third account to my attention, newly created but one BNL's crap detector found suspiciously familiar, I told him he wasn't alone. A campaign can be waged by one person. The edits from the two IP editors sure seem the work of one person. Dunno 'bout BesseCooperFan. 92.8.92.108 has now, since his/her block expired, vandalized my page. His/her campaign continues. David in DC (talk) 20:02, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, no suggestion of a campaign coordiniated off-wiki campaign. David in DC (talk) 17:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I detect sarcasm, but nonetheless, to take you literally: I am glad that you agree that there is no coordinated off-wiki campaign! Yay! :-) By the way, I recognized the conversation that the anonymous editor was talking about regarding The 110 Club.  It can be found here:  z3.invisionfree.com/The_110_Club/index.php?showtopic=2729.  It looks like Nick appeared to misunderstand how FLAGBIO was not applicable to a war-related page, so therefore, he assumed that flags were okay now and asked others for assistance.  I don't know the history behind this, but I can check into this.  Rest assured, this is not The Secret Garden.  :-)  <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  19:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * For argument's sake, I'll stipulate to a good-faith misunderstanding of the difference between real warriors and hypothetical contestants in a great, world-wide race against the grim reaper, with contestants representing nations.
 * "[H]e assumed that flags were okay now and asked others for assistance." He did this, as you've documented, off-wiki. I think you've just described a clear-cut violation of the ArbCom sanctions. I wish this was surprising. David in DC (talk) 01:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, we've now got similar, vandalism edits from:
 * 92.8.90.231,
 * 92.8.92.108, and
 * 92.8.82.170.
 * What truly astounding coincidences! David in DC (talk) 01:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, I had noticed that all anonymous IP editors that has harassed you (or vandalized Wikipedia) were 92.8.xx.xxx (which likely points to only one single person from England). I wonder if the user, 'Besse Cooper fan', also have that IP address range, but registered as a name so we wouldn't think all of them are the same person.  Ironically, nobody on The 110 Club forum appears to be using the same 92.8.xx.xxx address (or at least they don't post there).  The administrators at the forum are quite upset that someone is making a edit summary like this, "(On the 110 Club,help was requested to revert back flags on Wiki.I will do my best!More will follow.The GRG rules!!!)" Whoever is doing this must be such a rebellious, 13-year-old teenager or so (just guessing)... succeeding in making the forum and GRG looking bad.  It might just be someone from "outside the nonexistent walled garden" with an agenda against the subject of longevity (GRG/WOP/110C) full-bent on making the majority of longevity editors look bad (a friend of JJB, perhaps?).  Have you considered that possible angle?  :-)  Cheers, <font color="Sienna">Calvin <font color="DarkGreen">Ty  14:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Occam's Razor leans against that angle, but maybe that's why Occam's beard always looked so lop-sided. Robert, too, seems concerned that the perp or perps is making the 110 Club look bad. Regardless of whether these are miscreants or an agent provacatuer, if "[i]t looks like Nick appeared to misunderstand how FLAGBIO was not applicable to a war-related page, so therefore, he assumed that flags were okay now and asked others for assistance...." then it looks like Nick doesn't yet understand the perils of asking others, off-wiki, for assistance oin editing longevity articles. I've suggested to Robert that a word from him might have more credibility with Nick than one from me.  I suspect the same would go for a word from you, rather than one from me. Please consider offering that word (or even two or thre of them). Thanks. David in DC (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Flag Icons. Again.
See the history of List of living supercentenarians, List of oldest living people by nation, and List of surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War. The "administrator" in question is not in fact an administrator at all; he's a little overenthusiastic, and clearly not as old as I am (I'm 21). The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 04:48, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Discussion started here. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 15:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

WP World's Oldest People in the Signpost
"WikiProject Report" would like to focus on WikiProject World's Oldest People for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Other editors will also have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 01:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

i HAVE PROOF!!!!!!!!!!!!IT LOOKS BETTER WITH FLAGS,DAVID.
Posted: Sep 14 2011, 03:23 PM

Nick Ornstein

Group: Trusted Members Posts: 1,132 Member No.: 1,012 Joined: 14-February 10

On the revision history of the article "List of surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War", a user replied "It has been decided that it is not up to a single editor to decide the fate of this page, Nor does this article apply to FLAG BIO. view some of the discussion here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:%CE%A3 "

I need help reverting flags. fROM THE 110 CLUB FORUM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.85.228 (talk) 12:01, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

XLR8TION / Mayor Wilda Diaz / Charles Kushner
How does XLR8TION know that Mayor Diaz did not meet with Charles Kushner? The newspaper stated, "Diaz said company president Charles Kushner, chairman of Kushner Companies who got a chance to tour both buildings, sketched a concept for the courthouse that was incorporated into the redesign."

Did the Mayor ignore a billionaire developer when he came to Perth Amboy to re-evaluate the largest single investment project going on? Did Suzanne Russell: 732-565-7335; srussell@njpressmedia.com inaccurately report the facts?

XLR8TION wrote: "This is not a site to express anger or hatred against Ms. Diaz" but it seems XLR8TION is an apologist for the politician instead of a neutral observer. I appreciate your defense of my insertion. I am writing to newspaper reporter Suzanne Russell and the mayor's office to ascertain whether there was or was not a meeting between the principals, but until an authority suggests they did not meet, I believe the remark should be included. AmboyBeacon (talk) 18:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Italic text== Kushner (cont'd) == Your edit summary says: "Nothing in source sez the Diaz' quotes come from a second or a minute later, let alone a month. Please source timing assertion or eschew this obvious synthesis, original research or fantasy."

Let's see now. So exactly which part of that sequence is obvious synthesis, original research or fantasy? Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 03:49, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is dated September 16, 2011.
 * Based on that fact, or possibly some other you perceived, you accepted, through several iterations of the paragraph, the statement: "In September 2011, Perth Amboy Mayor Wilda Diaz met with Kushner and officials from his company, The Kushner Companies, after which she endorsed a scaled-back design concept for the Landings at Harborside..." This is not unreasonable; news articles are generally about current events unless explicitly stated otherwise.
 * The article states "Representatives from Kushner Companies presented the new design plans to the Perth Amboy Redevelopment Agency last month..." It hardly seems like synthesis to conclude that the presentation occurred in August.
 * To create a chronological sequence, I used the August meeting as a starting point, rather than the September article.
 * Given that no editors had contested the earlier interpretation that Diaz' endorsement of the project occurred in September, I included that time frame, but referred to September – in relation to the already mentioned August – as "the following month" for stylistic reasons.
 * I think your admirably complete, step-by-step, bulletted list is an archetype of synthesis. But then again, I often think six impossible things before breakfast. Happy editing, F&H. David in DC (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm a King!
It says so right here, on Wikipedia, so it must be true. I'd like to thank everyone who voted for me and, especially, the tabulator who annointed me. What a great way to start the New Year!David in DC (talk) 19:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you not get the invitation to your own coronation or something? I certainly didn't. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 22:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure mine got lost in the mail. It's been happening to me for royal events for decades, ever since I threw up on the Queen Mum's shoes at the rehearsal dinner before the wedding of Chuck and Di. David in DC (talk) 11:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Re: Nardari-Vecchiato
Hi,

I replaced the template with , obtaining current holder as output. Have a nice day -- Juanm  (talk)  19:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your cordial flexibility and for taking the time to teach me how to work with succession box code more efficiently. My tone and expectation of opposition were out-of-place. I apologize. David in DC (talk) 19:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Good sources
Hi David! As you might remember you recently pointed out in a edit on Venere Pizzinato that I had gave a Yahoo Newsgroup article as a source, I seriously could not see anything on that source page about Yahoo. You did mean Reference 4 ("Frans Joseph was my Emperor"), right? Please help me with this, I want to become better at finding good sources. Any tips? Thanks on beforehand, Cheers! --Leoj83 (talk) 13:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not the Franz Joseph is my emporer quote, it's the paragraph that was beneath it.Here's where I hid a paragraph sourced to a Yahoo! newsgroup. Look just below the emporer quote. Rather than delete the paragraph, I first added a wikilink identifying the researcher and then hid the whole thing from view by inserting this useful tool. That way, if there's some other source for these facts, it can be inserted and the paragraph "unhidden". That'd be great. But when one clicked on the reference purportedly leading to the source of the information, one arrived at a Yahoo portal asking for a username and password. That's not allowed.  Thanks for asking. I hope I've helped explain myself. David in DC (talk) 18:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok but I think that source was there before I rewrote the biography. Anyways, thank you for your time! --Leoj83 (talk) 16:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Venere_Pizzinato
Please tell me that you knew I was kidding about this. EEng (talk) 21:30, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Regrettably, I did not know it was a joke. That's why I undertook the "repairs". I kinda feel doltish now. David in DC (talk) 01:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Ryoung122 Talk Page
I never thought I'd say this, but I invite you to return to my talk page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ryoung122#Longevity-Related_Issues

The reality is that all editors have their own viewpoints, and I do think that it is a good idea to get several opinions. I also asked EdJohnston for a response, but that's it for now.

Ryoung 122 22:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Here I come. Thanks for the cordial invitation. David in DC (talk) 01:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Please advise what you think I should do about Ryoung122's apparent violation of his topic ban. EEng (talk) 06:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've reviewed the edit you cite and the other edits around it in the history of your talk page. They're all about superlative height, not superlative age. I've purposely not reviewed any other recent edits. But if there are no longevity edits, they may nonetheless implicate the sanctions, by way of WP:POINT, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, etc.
 * I feel your pain. (I'm speaking in the hypothetical below because, in an effort to stay the hell out of a budding WP:BATTLEGROUND, I haven't gone looking for the antecedent behavior that led to your talk page exchange.)
 * If I thought someone had violated sanctions, I'd file a motion to enforce the sanctions, including diffs and reference to the ArbCom decision in question. You're required to notify the other editor when you file such a motion. If you look through my edit history from shortly after the ArbCom decision, you'll see I did that with another editor. My edits back then might help you figure out how to do it. But I did it following the instructions at WP:AE and they may be enough.  +
 * A lesser step would be to simply file a very clear notice at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, including diffs and reference to the ArbCom decision in question. You're required to notify the other editor when you file such a motion.


 * The preferred course though, is to start by simply notifying the editor of your concern that, assuming good faith, the editor may be unaware that certain edits appear to violate ArbCom sanctions and/or other policies. Provide diffs for the edits and the sanctions (and any other policy violations you fear may be implicated WP:POINT, WP:BATTLEGROUND etc.) Follow WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. If you start with either of the two bigger guns I outline above, admins may question why you didn't start with this first step and choose not to act.
 * Such a talk page post could be posted under a new heading, or if a current thread on the page seems to invite participation, it might be tempting to post there. But I think that would be an error. If the relevant thread were currently active at the very bottom of the page, posting a new section directly beneath keeps the two matters parallel without fully intertwining them. Hypothetically speaking.
 * I hope I've been helpful. David in DC (talk) 10:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Aside from the fact that I don't consider what I posted a violation of my topic "suspension" (it was about TALL people), the real question is why EEng feels the need to make fun of others (in a negative way...as if they are "stupid" and he is "smart") and not admit to his mistakes when it turns out he is wrong. It is the height of arrogance and irony to disparage the viewpoints of others when it turns out that he was wrong. More than that, put-downs are just the second issue with EEng. The first issue is that he didn't bother to properly research the topic before adding his uninformed opinion. That seems to be one of the real problems with Wikipedia...for many, it is more about being "cool" or "macho" and less about encyclopedic content. I also note that EEng hasn't bothered building a Wikipedia profile. Perhaps he should start on making positive contributions to his own profile before he puts down others.
 * Have a nice day. Ryoung 122 14:22, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a suspicion that some purposeful goading has occurred here. It's really not sporting to bait a bear in order to provoke the bear into displaying its least admirable characteristics. Of course, people, as opposed to bears, ought to recognize that it's not necessary to rise to every bit of bait dangled before their snout. But danglers risk rebutting the assumption of good faith.
 * This whole effing morning of drama has pissed me off.David in DC (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, the entirety of this little drama was
 * In an AfD, this exchange took place:
 * None of that exchange -- none of the entire AfD -- involved Ryoung, nor did I know anything about him, until out of nowhere he posted this weird rant on my talkpage (the one I linked for you in the first place, above ). Although not allowed to edit them, he's apparently watching AfDs involving longevity and just couldn't resist.
 * In responding to him I should have skipped the "trifecta" bit but crikey, what's with this guy??? Anyway, that came after his weird post, so can't be part of what prompted it -- again, I'd had no interaction with him until his post.
 * Honestly I have little experience with ANI and all that stuff but poking around his edit history shows that this person has been so very disruptive for so long that I thought you should know about it, since you seem to have established some rapport with him. I did appreciate your advice, but just as I was reading it Ryoung122 blanked his talkpage, leaving only the message that he was taking an indefinite break, so I thought I'd just let it go if he didn't bother me again. I'm guessing he emailed you and I'm sorry to have reawakened old memories for you, if that's what happened.
 * EEng (talk) 20:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Understood. We're long-time antagonists. He extended an olive branch on the eve of Yom Kippur, by using the function on my wikipedia page that permits emailing. (I don't think Yom Kippur was of any import to RY, but it struck one of my soft spots.) I tried to respond in kind.
 * He is who and what he is. I shouldn't have invested emotion in trying to help break old cycles. I don't regret the effort but I do regret getting emotional about it. You're an innocent bystander. I'm sorry. I could probably stand a wiki-break myself.  If you look at my edits today, you'll see I've taken a different approach. I've directed my frustration where it belongs, into improving a longevity article or doing my best to get it in the best shape I can before an AfD.  That way, if it's deleted, the hobbyists and experts would have no legitimate reason to cry "Wait, it could have been rescued!".  The damn thing's been screaming for rescue for several years.
 * Again, I'm sorry. The rant on your talk page was a WP:POINTy attempt to evade the ArbCom sanctions, and you called the thing by its true name. The trifecta thing was funny. But I knew when I saw it that things would head downhill very quickly thereafter. In the past, he's been better at dishing out criticism than taking it, especially criticism tinged with well-executed sarcasm. I hope that next time our paths cross, my behavior reflects better on my editorial participation in building the encyclopedia and working collegially.
 * David in DC (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC).
 * From my point of view you're beating yourself up without cause -- you've behaved with great restraint in the face of outrageous provocation over a very long period.
 * EEng (talk) 23:12, 17 October 2011 (UTC) (P.S. Listen -- anything you can do about this ginormous talk page you've got here? It almost crashed my computer.)
 * I pretty much agree with the points made in the latter half of this conversation. I just had to say, |this has to be one of the funniest edit summaries I've ever seen.  Speaking from my experience being 6'3", it's personally amusing to me how many shorter people try to say "size isn't everything; you know, it's healthier to be short".  It's almost always very thinly veiled jealousy, and I usually laugh at them.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 22:20, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. But in the two-man unintentional tagteam category, I nominiate what you see below (slightly edited now to make context clearer to third parties). EEng (talk) 23:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * At the risk of "crashing" someone's computer (woah!), I must say that, once again, EEing's comments above are taking things in the wrong direction. But before I address that, a few comments about David in DC and the short/tall debate.

1. The first time I ever engaged with David in DC, he made some comments that I found offensive. That was before he and I clashed on a certain topic that I'm not supposed to talk about. In my mind, in all fairness, given his past history, he should have recused himself from a Conflict-Of-Interest situation (the same could be said about me, but that misses the point). I realize that David in DC is a great legal mind, but sometimes decisions are made based more on will than on doing what is the best possible choice.

2. I did extend the olive branch and it was taken, and I thought things would work out. Due to circumstances beyond my control, Wikipedia is an unstable "sausage-making" environment and third-party interactions conspired to interfere with our attempted thaw. So, yes, EEing, butt out.

3. About tall people/short people: Blade, you are just, quite simply put, wrong. Studies have shown that there is a health benefit to being short, and I'd take that advantage. The data is overwhelming. It's more difficult to pump blood to your head when you're tall, and that overworks the heart. So, go ahead and laugh. I note the average age if the ten tallest persons of all time is 40-something. If that doesn't make the point...that the ten tallest people of all time have an average age similar to the ten fattest people of all time...then nothing will.

Now, back to EEing. It seems that a lot of editors on Wikipedia enjoy the fact that "anyone can edit," but that's not enough. They feel the need to build alliances (as if it is a place for wargames) and make fun of others (as if this were high school). Pardon my lack of humor, but Wikipedia aspires to be an "encyclopedia." Lack I checked, that included factors such as objectivity, reliability, verifiability, etc. Making sarcastic remarks about others and pretending to "have a clue" and acting as if others don't is little more than CYBER BULLYING. I note that EEing, unlike David in DC, did not apologize, did not offer attempts at conflict resolution, did not attempt to focus on making Wikipedia a better place, but instead sought to throw flames onto the fire.

I'm surprised to still see comments here about what had appeared to be over. Instead, I see comments intended to build that "bully alliance" that is more common to high school hallways than to a collaborative encyclopedic effort.

The fact of the matter is, I have made major contributions to Wikipedia for years, to topics as diverse as botany, tennis, human evolution, geography, minor celebrities, etc. I believe that, in order to make a difference, it would be a waste of time for me to edit an article on Michael Jackson or Thomas Jefferson: there are plenty of people to do that. Where I see that I can make a difference is to do what "no one did" even though "anyone could have done it." As such, by definition, this may involve marginal (risky) decision-making: do we need an article on the second-fastest marathoner in Canadian history? I feel that we do, some may not. It is more my choice of what to edit that sometimes results in conflict than how I treat others or how I edit on Wikipedia. I'm not making ethnic jokes (EEing), I'm not making "gender" jokes. I'm not using profanity (for the most part) or foul language. I'm sticking to the issue. The real issues are: "Is this topic encyclopedic"? "Is this article on the topic objectively written and adequately sourced?" "Is this Wikipedia article following the proper rules of Wikipedia's core policies, namely NPOV (Neutral Point of View), NOR (No Original Research), and V (Verifiability)?" Too often, we see those proper Wiki-editing traits cast aside as the lowest common denominator of human nature takes over: the tribal attempt to bully others, to make fun of others, to build alliances against others. Again, I say: FACT: Your comments about "tall people" were scientifically uninformed and incorrect, yet you choose to make fun of those who are correct and pretend that others are idiots or morons. OK, fine. Believe what you want. You know what they say about horses and water. That's not my main concern. My main concern is that when you choose to spread misinformation, you are working against the purpose and goal of Wikipedia.

You should take a moment to reflect and build a sense of empathy. David in DC and myself may be long-time antagonists, but we have a certain respect for the other, knowing that the other cares about the material and about their efforts here on Wikipedia. Blade, too, has a positive sense of humor (tall jokes aside). I don't know enough about you, EEing, to say more. I do know that you were factually mistaken and making fun of others for being wrong (when they were right). That, to me, was a big problem, and it needed correction.

Ryoung 122 06:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Like a bad penny...
Looks like you may be on an unannounced break, but nonetheless.... EEng (talk) 01:56, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, wait. I misread what the clerk said.  He's indefinitely blocked -- it's the IP that's blocked for only a year. Never mind. EEng (talk) 02:02, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I am indeed taking a respite from editing. Thanks for thinking of me. I'll be back David in DC (talk) 11:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Our friend has contacted me off-wiki. I'm hoping my response, originally communicated directly and now appended here, will convince all to honor the plea I've made in my response's final paragraph:

"We disagree. But it's unimportant. I rarely edit any more. I became involved in a different --- although no less maddeningly wacky --- group collaboration.

It became notable and I became a COI editor on a number of topics.

Given the fact that I only have time for a finite number of collaborative timesinks populated by too many nut-cases and too few adults, I followed the easiest course. Consequently, my activity level as a wikipedia editor has reached a state of near-total dormancy.

For the second year in a row, you've reached out to me on the eve of Yom Kippur. Last year, I was moved to voice my non-opposition to a review and possible lifting of your well-earned sanctions. You promptly became entangled in a new kerfuffle (or at least a new iteration of an old one.)

This year, I'm content to let the chips fall where they may without my participation.

I noted last year that I thought others had engaged in a bit of Robert-baiting. I think I called it "... a fair amount of button-pushing."

I'll note now that it's not necessary to rise whenever bait is dangled.

Good luck, Robert.

But please, in the immortal words of Samuel Goldwyn:

Include me out." David in DC (talk) 18:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I missed this until just now. He wrote to me also. You are a person of good heart and generous spirit, and that's not always easy, so I want you to see that you're not alone in trying to heal the wounded (even if the wounds were largely self-inflicted) . EEng (talk) 15:44, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Great minds think alike -- and small (or tall) minds seldom differ
I take it in making this edit you overlooked the summary for my earlier change. EEng (talk) 14:16, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Arrgh. I got no reason to live. David in DC (talk) 15:34, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * If all great minds thought alike, the world would be a boring place. And, EEing, are you implying that you are a "great mind"? If so, that' just another example of your arrogance that needs a dose of humility. There is an old saying, respect is earned, not demanded. Ryoung 122 06:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Assuming Good Faith?
Makila/Peter Vermaelen responded to your ANI charge:

Why are they attacking my username?

- I do edit with the username Makila on the Dutch wiki pages - Wikipedia does not allow me to log on with Makila on the English wiki pages (I dont know why?) It seems if you create a wiki account on the Dutch pages, it is only valid for the Dutch pages. BUT if you create an account on the English pages, the account is also valid on the Dutch pages NO I am not kidding .. - But at the same time when I try to create the username Makila under wikipedia, it says the username already exists because then it does search for the username on the Dutch wiki.

There was no attempt to "hide identity," there was a technical issue in that Makila already had a Dutch username but couldn't "re-create" it on the English Wikipedia.

By the way, Wikipedians often think backward: many of these people...Makila, Nick Ornstein, Siamese Turtle, etc....I learned of first on Wikipedia. Later, some decided to join outside organizations. Ryoung 122 06:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Tooth and face hurt
but Vicodin is a lot of fun. (See wikibreak notice above.)

I should be back to editing substantively within a few more days, when I no longer have enough discomfort to make me crankier than usual nor enough vicodin to make me any loopier than I am at baseline.

When I do return, I'd appreciate it if my page stoped being a forum for anyone to argue about anything except their own complaints, comments or commendations about me.

Jokes are good, too. But none about the size of my dick or my gender orientation. In both cases, I believe in the sanctity of marriage. Only one's spouse should be permitted to joke about the size of one's dick or their gender orientation.

If peter wants to talk to me, he can post on my page or send me an email. If Robert wants to talk to or about EEng, he can do it on his own talk page or EEng's. If Jimbo wants to profess undying admiration (or utter loathing) of BNL, he can do it on his own page or BNL's.

Please note, no response to this post is invited. Not that that's ever stopped anyone before. David in DC (talk) 10:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Get well soon.  Chzz  ► 17:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. All better, minus one tooth. I hit the dental trifecta: Impacted, cracked and infected wisdom tooth.  Lost no wisdom tho. That was depleted long ago. David in DC (talk) 17:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Your input is requested
See WT:MOSICON. Am I just a little hypersensitive to this, or do I actually have a valid point there? Also glad you're better; don't know about you, but for me Vicodin actually had no effect on my mental status, it was the injury itself (shoulder surgery) that messed me up. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 17:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

"Not that anyone with a lick of sense would hire him."
Huh?  City O f Silver  22:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You are, of course, correct. But keeping the page free of jokes is a Sisyphian task, except more thankless. If some Junks jokesters were content to make jokes in hidden code, it might be better. I took a shot at showing them how. But it was clearly a WP:BOLD, WP:IAR approach to a problem that can be fixed by more conventional means. Please feel free to employ those more conventional means. I'll limit myself to them, as well.  For all the good it will do us. David in DC (talk) 22:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * FYI - I once took another approach. It didn't have any lasting effect either. If you can come up with an approach that works, I'll salute you. David in DC (talk) 22:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

DC
David Harry, I deleted the Ch. in the discussion. Considering the only article you created in WP was that one, and consequently interpreting the DC on your username as David Ch. I was wrong. Sorry if I made a mistake. Now please stop personal attacks. I've nothing against you, regardless of your name, so please stop insulting allusions and rude tones as you made in edit-summaries, thanks in advance. Bye.--Cavarrone (talk) 13:12, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for apologies in the AfD. Much appreciated.--Cavarrone (talk) 13:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Something for your consideration
See Talk:List of the verified oldest people. I'm going to post this here as well, but I especially want your and CalvinTy's opinion on this, as you two seem to be the most active people in the topic. Also, not to canvass, but I've got an RfA going, and your comments/vote (whether in support or in opposition) would be more than welcome. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 21:18, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've bowed out of the longevity wars. Life is too short. David in DC (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think your equanimity and thorough knowledge of what makes wikipedia work and of what doesn't make you a fine candidate for adminship. I'll weigh whether an affirmation of support from the likes of me would be a net positive or net negative for your chances and act accordingly. David in DC (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Talkback
Unrelated to your comment, I have a problem. If you could help at all, my description of it is here. I do not mean to pull you into something, but it does show you the audience for whom I am advocating.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)   20:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Before I help any more, will you please review the edits I've made to the article about housing shortages. If they're helpful, I'll continue. Thanks for the invitation. David in DC (talk) 21:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Combining sources is great feedback. The only concern I have about what you started is that I have trouble vouching for what the students read. The skill set is diverse - some of them get Wikipedia but for most of them it is a struggle. If I could ask you to put your comments directly on the article talk page or even make a note on their own userpages directing them to the talk page, then I think they would be more likely to see it than with notes and advice in the summaries. Thank you so much. It is stressful for me because I want this project to be a success so that it can continue perpetually at this school, and I feel like the infrastructure for accessing help is not finished.  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   21:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've left notes calling attention to my edits on the talk pages of the two editors who've done most of the work. I'm no more qualified to judge the factual accuracy than you are, so I've limited myself to ref and MOS tips. Someone else will assess accuracy in the fullness of time.  Many hands make fast work. David in DC (talk) 21:56, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you - that is what I was wanting. And in the future if you ever meet someone looking for something to do on Wikipedia, send them to the campus ambassador program. It is active outreach to train new editors and needs support.  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   23:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Housing quality and health outcomes in the United States
David in DC, thank you for your comments, edits and time spent on our first article. We will continue to make edits, and I look forward to watching it "evolve". Taavicooper (Talk)

Punctuation
Hi -- I didn't revert your edit to Nude swimming, because it's hardly a big deal, but WikiStyle calls for logical punctuation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

99% declaration has been nominated for deletion
Feel free to weigh in on the discussion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/99 Percent Declaration (2nd nomination).--Amadscientist (talk) 11:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Followup RFC to WP:RFC/AAT now in community feedback phase
Hello. As a participant in Requests for comment/Abortion article titles, you may wish to register an opinion on its followup RFC, Requests for comment/Abortion advocacy movement coverage, which is now in its community feedback phase. Please note that WP:RFC/AAMC is not simply a repeat of WP:RFC/AAT, and is attempting to achieve better results by asking a more narrowly-focused, policy-based question of the community. Assumptions based on the previous RFC should be discarded before participation, particularly the assumption that Wikipedia has or inherently needs to have articles covering generalized perspective on each side of abortion advocacy, and that what we are trying to do is come up with labels for that. Thanks! —chaos5023 20:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

[Name of protected character redacted]
Hello. Just a courtesy note to let you know I reverted what I perceived as a clear personal attack on this blocked user's talk page. I almost never revert anything on other people's talk pages, even when it's vandalism, but given the blatant nature of the attack and the fact of the editor's absence (i.e., inability to defend himself), I went ahead. If you want to reinsert it, I won't pursue the matter, but I'm pretty sure the exact same message can be communicated without the namecalling. Rivertorch (talk) 04:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what was reverted:


 * Interactions that persuaded me to steer clear of this character
 * This month-long interaction was the kind of thing that helped sour me on WP. I perservered for a long time, then took a long break. I'm gratified to learn that time does indeed eventually wound all heels. David in DC (talk) 02:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * David in DC (talk) 10:48, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * You've apparently violated some unspoken rule against digging into heels. (I had similar experiences with [protected character], BTW.) EEng (talk) 12:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Overlink issues
Hey David, nice to meet you. I saw you dealing with some overlink issues and I thought I'd help you out by giving you a script to make your life easier. If you add the following text to your common.js page, you can click a link in the toolbox and anything linked twice will be highlited (or given a border). It also deals with the lead and body of the article separately, you can see more at User:Ucucha/duplinks. Ryan Vesey 23:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Cool. Thanks. David in DC (talk) 01:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Coppens faculty position
Just to note that it wouldn't have affected his notability. Even a full professor at Yale isn't automatically notable. Dougweller (talk) 14:09, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm aware that, were it your call, you might have closed the AfD differently. Rather than repeat myself, I'd urge you to read this, in which I explain my thinking and my motivation.
 * Happy editing,
 * David in DC (talk) 20:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Abella Anderson
Hello David in DC. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Abella Anderson, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: '''The article is not substantially the same as the deleted version. A new deletion discussion is required.''' Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:28, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Everyone brings joy...
by walking through a door. Some by walking in... David in DC (talk) 23:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Stephen Heymann
He is not currently deputy chief. See talk discussion Talk:Stephen Heymann. I tried to compromise between not reverting your entire edits from today wholesale, but trying to make sure it was accurate. In the limited time I had available I may not have done the best job. jhawkinson (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. David in DC (talk) 21:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

A simple request
Hi, David in DC. Please stop your campaign against me, including staying away from my talk page. Thanks. I realize you may think your patience is exhausted or whatever; the solution's simple. 75.67.246.17 (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll be happy to stay away from User:CarthCarsen and its associated talk page. I can only stay away from the page associated with IP 75.67.246.17 to the extent that edits made to that page are in compliance with wikipedia's policies and guidelines.  IP 75.67.246.17 has commented on the Aaron Swartz talk page that the person who once edited as User:CarthCarsen is the same as the person now editing from IP 75.67.246.17.  I believe that comment. So Carth/75..., the choice, ultimately, is yours. You're right.  The solution's simple. Follow the rules or be corrected. David in DC (talk) 02:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone who miscites rules should not cite rules. 75.67.246.17 (talk) 03:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Aaron Swartz section headings
The issue with heading levels in Talk:Aaron Swartz is that CarthCarsen/75.67.246.17 apparently wants to draw attention to certain discussion topics (surprise!), even though first-level headings are nonstandard and mess up the hierarchy in the TOC. I fixed the problem a couple hours before you did, but 75.67.246.17 swooped in and changed them back. Thanks for cleaning them up again so quickly. —mjb (talk) 17:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Really? I guess I shoulda looked at the history.  But since I knew there was a front page glitch problem nd this seemed so uniformly affecting the bottom of the page, it never occured to me that it was vandalism.


 * What a strange form of vandalism. It's point was too obscure for me. Oh well, if someone's gonna be a vandal, effing with the headings on a talk page is a darn sight better than some of this editor's other choices. Plus, it got me humming one of my favorite Elvis Costello lyrics.  "I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused..." David in DC (talk) 01:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Adding or editing Aaron Swartz hat
A new hatnote for Aaron Swartz. Does it fit? If not, edit at will!

“This article is about the Internet activist Aaron Swartz. For the actor, see Aaron Swartz (actor). For other people with similar names, see Aaron Schwartz or Aaron Schwartz (Canadian actor).”


 * If all those articles exist currently, I don't think the hatnote is wrong and I would not revert. But Yworo has expressed concern that the Canadian Schwartz article is about a non-notable actor. the actor Aaron Swartz may also be non-notable.  So, if neither article surves PROD or AfD, the hatnote will need changing with each deletion.
 * If you put up the new hatnote, please watch all three articles and act accordingly.
 * Please do not announce that I agree with you. Frankly, if you told me the sun was coming up tomorrow, I'd consult an almanac.  I do not agree with you. I have simply stated that I would not revert you on this single proposed edit. As a general matter, I'm pretty close to Mary McCarthy's famous observation about Lillian Hellman: Every word she writes is a lie, including 'and' and 'the'. David in DC (talk) 12:02, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You may want to qualify that statement slightly, D.C. See Talk:Aaron_Swartz, where I’m saying that you were correct and that I made an error(!!!). --Dervorguilla (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * You’re also very wise to point out the PROD and AfD issues... I’ve added three citations to Aaron Schwartz (Canadian actor) (two of them reliable).  Anything else I could do to speed up the process? --Dervorguilla (talk) 17:12, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Met Dervorguilla in person
I met User:Dervorguilla in person this evening at the reception for the Aaron Swartz memorial at MIT. [Dervorguilla] acknowledged [Dervorguilla's] editor interaction difficulties, and (my phasing) expressed a commitment to try to be more collegial while editing Wikipedia in the future. [Dervorguilla] asked me (again, my phrasing) to attest to [Dervorguilla's] good faith, and to convey to you that [Dervorguilla's] trying to do [Dervorguilla's] best, so not to mistakenly think poorly of [Dervorguilla]. [Dervorguilla] struck me as earnest and sincere. We had a discussion of the problems of editing Wikipedia, where differences in personality types can sometimes lead to acrimony. So while of course there may be disputes in the future, please chalk them up to unfamiliarity or idiosyncrasy rather than any ill-will. I can also now testify [Dervorguilla's] not a kid. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 05:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Consider them so chalked. Thanks. David in DC (talk) 10:31, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

User David in DC has been carrying out his editorial duties with boldness and distinction. (Adapted from Hellcats of the Navy, remarks by Commander Reagan about his insubordinate executive officer, who’s just told him off in front of his crew.) Always wanted a chance to use that phrase! ( And like Lt. Cmdr. Franz, he still needs to acquire self-discipline. ) --Dervorguilla (talk) 05:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC) 08:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)  11:08, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For a different diagnosis, see projection. David in DC (talk) 10:45, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Just watched Hellcats of the Navy. The actor is Reagan. The character is Casey Abbot. The movie is much better than I expected. It's dated and it shows why Reagan is usually referred to as a B-movie actor. But it beats the hell out of the movies where he was routinely upstaged by a chimp. David in DC (talk) 10:41, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Naomi clean up
I noticed you cleaning up one of our typically appallingly written pornographic actress pages. Good job there. Did you want the left-over pages from the page move deleted or did you have a use for them? CIreland (talk) 12:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Please delete it. I couldn't figure out how.  Also, please watch these pages.  If you lok at them, you'll see an on-going effort to violate multiple rules.  I don't want to edit war and an admin's assistance is desperately needed.


 * Thank you. I want this done right and I don't really know how.


 * Best,
 * David in DC (talk) 12:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Deleted. I already had the page watchlisted as well as a number of other poor articles on pornographic actors which is how I saw your edits. I didn't know about the Australian gymnast page though, so I'll watch that. I'm not very active now and your changes just happened to pop to the top of my watchlist on a rare day off work but I'll keep an eye out as best I can. CIreland (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool. No worries. I'm glad you could help when you could.  I know I did some of my editing bass-ackwards. I relly appreciated your noticing my work and cleaning up what I left over and didn't know how to fix.  David in DC (talk) 12:31, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Aaron Swartz Again
You might be interested in this if you havent seen it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:MarkBernstein_reported_by_User:Dervorguilla_.28Result:_.29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkBernstein (talk • contribs) 17:36, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

List of vegetarians RfC
Hi David, would you mind moving your response out of the RfC's introduction? That section is for whoever initiated the RfC. Betty Logan's comment is there because they were mentioned in the introduction. The survey and threaded-discussion sections are for respondents. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 01:52, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. David in DC (talk) 02:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:16, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

LOL, I was expecting threats to report me to WP:AN/I, not thanks! Cheers. Kaldari (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Aaron Swartz talk
I think MarkBernstein and I could perhaps have let the mystery of the missing Mass Law Weekly story go quietly unanswered. But when you spoke up ( “I'm looking forward to MarkBernstein providing the subsequent front page article” and such), you put him on the spot. I think you left him no face-saving option other than to continue maintaining his original story. Wouldn’t at least some reasonable people have interpreted your statement to imply, ‘Please don’t let this drop’?

In the event, he ended up making a fruitless trip to the local library so he could show good faith.

The talk history indicates that you’ve been acting in a way that incites him, thereby aggravating the disruption. (I’m not saying this was your intention.) Should these time-wasting conflicts arise again, please try to help him calm down. (Maybe you could come up with a creative way to let him retreat with dignity?) --Dervorguilla (talk) 16:01, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Crocodile tears. DavidInDC's edits have been useful and constructive, unlike some others. In fact, my "original story" is correct; I did see a front-page story in Mass Lawyers Weekly on Aaron Swartz not long after the Silverglate piece ran, as did all the paper's subscribers. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Homophones
Ack! I really have to avoid editing talk pages on my iPad. Thanks. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll no doubt now face an ANI complaint for corrupting the page by violating the rule against editing other editors' talk page comments. If I get thrown in wiki-jail over it, can I count on you for wiki-bail? :) David in DC (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear oh dear
That one does seem to have ownership issues, doesn't she? Feel free to email to let off steam. Guy (Help!) 10:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Your suggestion re the page...
Nude photography was one of the articles I contributed to as a first effort when I started less than a year ago, so I would be interested in continuing to do so if it were worthwhile. However I have moved on to Fine art, a much more important topic which has more problems. If was tagged as an article for improvement but the only result seems to have been a brief edit war on the propriety of placing such tags, but no substantial contributions. (ps. You are in DC? I am in Northern VA.) FigureArtist (talk) 06:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

sense of language
Just saying that I admire your sense of language. Thank you for making articles sound better! Lova Falk  talk  22:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. You're very kind. I just wish my 15-year-old son agreed. Based solely on his responses to questions or directions of perfect clarity (to my own ear, anyway,) I'd have to conclude that I'm entirely unintelligible. :) David in DC (talk) 22:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Aaron Schwartz (Canadian actor)
Thanks for pointing out the problem -- it was definitely my fault for accidentally only moving the Talk page yesterday, and not the actual article (which I had failed to notice). I appreciate your effort to fix my mistake! I put a speedy-delete template at the correct title, so hopefully that redirect will be deleted and then the page can be moved to that title. Theoldsparkle (talk) 15:48, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * You're kind. Let me know if there's anything else I should do.  Otherwise, I'm out of the moving business until I learn how to do it. David in DC (talk) 20:22, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Weaponized Indeed
Our friend has filed a new AN3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring MarkBernstein (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. David in DC (talk) 20:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

J.K.Herms
I don't know what you hoped to achieve with that edit, but do not post the results of Google searches on other editors' usernames. Ever. If you discover something about an editor that is directly relevant to their edits, email it privately to an administrator or the Arbitration Committee. If you have a problem with their edits that is not related to anything they do off Wikipedia, use the on-wiki processes or seek advice from an administrator. If you post that sort of thing again without an exceptionally good reason, I will block you. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  16:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I will, of course, heed your warning. But you've misinterpreted my intent. The account is a permitted multiple account.  I am involved in a heated, but bantering, content disagreement with the main account-holder. I truly meant the heading "This is odd." My purpose was to call to the the user's attention the fact that, while looking for information on his toothpaste patent and his work as a crime club advisor, I'd encountered a wholly unexpected result.  If such a thing happens again, I'll find a way to communicate off-wiki.  The way I chose clearly was an egregious error. David in DC (talk) 16:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I misunderstood, sorry, but I think he misunderstood it as well. Might be an idea to explain that you didn't mean it mailiciously. Best, HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  17:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I have mentioned you in a discussion on ANI about Kira Reed
Please see this discussion. You may wish to comment there. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The Bishop
Hey David: There were two articles about this subject, one named "John Tomkins" and the other named "The Bishop." All I did was merge the two articles into the "John Tomkins" article so there were not two articles regarding the same individual. MDEVER802 (talk) 03:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey back atchya. I understand. I've suggested a more conventional approach (and links to pages that will help) on the article's talk page. David in DC (talk) 03:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

If no one responds to my merge proposal, should I just erase "The Bishop" article and redirect it to "John Tomkins?" MDEVER802 (talk) 03:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * First make sure everything you want from the Bishop article is in the Tomkins article. Then nominate the Bishop article as an AfD. Once you open up the AfD, I'll see it and !vote to delete.
 * It's hard to see why anyone would !vote otherwise. A week or so later, an admin will close the AfD as "Delete" and delete the Bishop page, with all the stuff you want retained from it already safely ensconced on the Tomkins page.  David in DC (talk) 05:03, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Just proposed the deletion of "The Bishop." MDEVER802 (talk) 21:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

David Luchins
Well David, in German we say: when two are fighting, it's the third who is laughing. There probably also is an English proverb meaning the same. Another saying would be: if you give somebody the little finger, he will want the whole hand. When I created the article about David Luchins, I did not expect it to attract any attention, as nobody in WP had ever bothered about Luchins before. I myself had never heard of him but got interested because of the controversy between him and supporters of conservative Republican politicians like Milton Balkany. David, you have rewritten the article and you have transformed Luchins, a "full time" Orthodox Jew representing the Orthodox Union (OU) as well as other American Jewish organizations, whose trademark, as far as I can make out from available sources, is his not shying away from controversy and repeatedly getting into one (see the Jewish Daily Forward's description of him) into a religiously observant private individual who happens to be Jewish, meddling with whatever comes his way, anything from Jonathan Pollard, Jewish Fundamentalism, Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik, Jewish Homosexuals to Admiration for Chabad Lubavitch, and once, just once you let him speak on behalf of the Orthodox Union, and "about Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s Gaza disengagement plan" of all subjects. This is imo inviting the kind of removals and comments the article is getting now from single purpose users, regardless of what their personal interest is. It may be anything from relatives who are not of the same opinion to Pollard supporters to Lubavicher messianists.

A "national vice-president of the Orthodox Union" is always representing or perceived as representing the OU when making statements about ethical, political, religious etc. issues in public, and that is precisely why he may end up "in the center of controversy", and in Luchins case, that is also the only notable thing about him. Neither a national vice-president of the OU, nor a Touro College dean who has not published anything worth mentioning, nor a friend of one or the other rabbi or rebbe is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, but as a OU national vice-president whose "tart tongue has often landed him in the center of controversy" he is notable. So by coming up with the idea that a "controversies" section does not belong in the article of a liberal person representing a conservative organization (OU) who is notable for creating or getting into controversies and only for that, you have played into the hand of those who do not want to have Luchins portrayed as a reprasentative of the OU who is a bit more liberal than most.

I can understand the IPs with a personal interest who would rather not have what Jewish media report about Luchins' statements spread in a WP article, and I can also understand their taking it for granted that whoever came up with the idea to make him the subject of a WP article must have personal reasons for doing so. They are wrong, but seeing what has become of the article makes me regret having created it: David Luchins coming to the "Defense of Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik"? Please excuse me, but whoever thinks that a Tauro College dean of the political science department is a likely candidate to come to the defense of a head of a Brisker Yeshiva imo still has a few things to learn about the Who is Who in (American) Orthodox Jewry – but not being an American myself I may not be the best judge of that. However, if the IPs and other single purpose accounts end up removing the whole article piece by piece, I wont hinder them, unless the article is restored to an article portraying Luchins as what he is described, namely "a liberal – or a 'leftist,' as he prefers – in an Orthodox community that is ever-more conservative [whose] tart tongue has often landed him in the center of controversy." Cheers, Ajnem (talk) 13:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing. David in DC (talk) 18:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Mike Gatto
Many thanks for your help with Mike Gatto. The article really smelled like self-promotion but I didn't even know where to begin. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Glad to try to help. But as I said on the BLP/N page, I fear it will all be for naught. The WP:OWN behavior seems to have been abetted or at least tolerated for far too long. David in DC (talk) 21:44, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * A new photo is back, source unknown. I'm trying to clear up its copyright status with the uploader. Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:34, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I noticed. Thanks.
 * At this point, I'll assume good faith that the template on the page hosting the pic accurately states the status of photographs created in the course of official California state business. And it comes from http://asm.ca.gov/gatto which is Mr. Gatto's official state assembly page. You might want to consult WP:COPYVIO experts, of which I'm not one.
 * I'm very troubled by the WP:COI and WP:OWN issues here, and the degree to which Mr. Gatto's partisans keep sanitizing the page, turning wikipedia into a web-hosting service for his public relations work. I'm just not sure about what to do about it. I'm hoping the BLP/N conversation attracts administrative attention, and I'll keep at the page now and again to try to clean it up.
 * I appreciate your hard work here. It's a knotty problem when there's a dedicated group prepared to wheel-war and frustrate honest wiki-editing. It's a lot easier to deal with a group insisting on inserting and reinserting derogatory stuff.  Then WP:BLP comes into play.  With people dedicated to sanitizing and to turning articles into puff pieces, WP:3RR and proscriptions against edit-warring put the partisans a far stronger position. David in DC (talk) 10:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

July 2013
Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=565810066 your edit] to Prem Rawat may have broken the syntax by modifying 2 "[]"s. If you have, don't worry, just [ edit the page] again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:A930913/BBpreload&editintro=User:A930913/BBeditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:A930913&preloadtitle=BracketBot%20-%20&section=new my operator's talk page].
 * List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 21:40, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * had founded. At age 13 Rawat travelled to the West, soon taking up residence in the United States . Many young adults were attracted to DLM, taking interest, for instance, in the claim that Rawat

D'Hanis, TX
No, you actually restored some of my edits which were removed by another user and which I restored. D'Hanis is a town of about 850 people and I added a prominent business to the business listing which another user removed -- making me question the very purpose of Wikipedia, which, I thought, was to list more relevant information, rather than less. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuckdevore (talk • contribs) 03:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you reinstated the info on the local businesses. It is clearly WP:NOTDIR.  We don't list non notable businesses.  I am confused. Gtwfan52 (talk) 05:57, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I confused both parties. Clearly ineffective. I deleted the worst of the vandalism and outright nonsense. I also did some general wikifying. I was trying to get the article partway to a baseline, so that vandalism (a specialty of Mr. DeVore, when he's not puffing up his own bio) was clear. (i.e. the bs about sourcing the Disney material to the web page of the business. Where nothing about the Disney material appears). Now I'll go back and do the WP:NOTDIR edits. That's a content dispute, albeit a slam-dunk on one side. The vandalism and general repeated bad editorship stuff may be approaching ANI status. (Especially when combined with the recidivist nature of the bad behavior.)  The assumption of good faith can be rebutted. This editor's overall history is practically a primer on how to rebut it.  David in DC (talk) 10:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Gtwfan52, Chuckdevore: please review my previous comment and these edits. David in DC (talk) 11:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)