User talk:Davidjlynn

Biblical arguments for equal but distinct gender roles
The following are just a few thoughts and scriptural references that reveal equal yet distinct functions/roles between men and women at home and in the church:

Introduction:

The scripture endorses different functions/roles between men and women in the home. (1 Peter 3:1-6; Eph 5:22, 25; Titus 2:4; Colossians 3:18-19). In general, men are exhorted to lead with love and consideration, while women are told to submit with loving reverence. There is never a single instance where these roles are reversed within the context of the home. Both Paul and Peter based these principles on God's creation order, and old testament theology as opposed to particular cultural traditions. (1 Peter 3:1-6; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16; 1 Timothy 2:12; 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 ). Their teachings were expected to be timebound and practiced in all Christian Churches. ( 1 Timothy 2:12; 3:15-16 ;1 Corinthians 14:33-38 ; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16). Early church documents also reveal that the orignal hearers interpreted these teachings quite literally. (http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf04/anf04-09.htm)Apostolic churches like the Orthodox and Catholic's also maintain teachings of gender distinction as well as most churches throughout church history.(http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg1.htm

The apostle Paul taught that the same principles apply in a formal church setting:

1. Paul addresses women in formal church settings to keep silent based on Torah law regarding female subjugation to men (1 Cor 14:34-35). He also claims that the instructions are the commands of the Lord.

2. Women are told to learn in silence with attitude of subjection in formal church settings based on creation order (1 Timothy 2:12-15)

3. Women are restricted from teaching and "usurping" authority over men in formal church settings for same above reason with ties to family order.(1 Timothy 2:12-15)

4.  Women are not addressed/considered when discussing roles of church authority like that of bishops, elders, deacons. However, they are given the mandate to be on a similar morality as their husbands in these roles. (Titus 1:5-, 1 Timothy 3:1-12,14-15)

5. Although many women were present and active in the ministry of the gospel, and Jesus and the Apostles publically trancended/opposed/resisted various Jewish laws and customs relating to inequality, Jesus and the apostles neither chose nor considered to choose women as apostles or deacons. (Luke 6:13; Acts 1:14-26;Acts 6:3)

6. These exhortations were given to various church contexts and to traveling evangelists(Timothy, Titus) which were told to remain true to these specific teachings (removing the argument that they were cultural prescriptions), letters often circulated to all the churches, coincided (within the texts themselves) with teachings regarding family order, coincided with Torah, there is a consistency of doctrine in all letters of the NT, coincides with early church documents and traditions, and noted by Paul to be the commands of the Lord and traditions amongst "all the churches of God" ( Areas: Corinth, Ephesus, Crete,etc..; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16; 1 Corinthians 14:33-38; 1 Timothy 3:14-15)

Other notes: Within scripture, we can also find examples where women are allowed to speak in formal church settings although with the condition that they are veiled. (1 Cor 11:1-16) This reveals that the ruling principle is not limitation, but that ministry should be done with an attitude of reverence and submission to those in authority, and Gods design and order. Paul reveals through the guidelines and principles of gender distinction that God is concerned with the preservation of family, creation, and church order. That is why men's leadership roles are formally endorsed throughout the pages of scripture as opposed to women's.   However, in scripture, one can find that outside contexts of formality, women operate in many gifts of the Spirit like evangelizing, prophesying, serving, praying, teaching, laboring in ministry, preaching.(John 4:28-30; 1 Cor 11:1-16; Matt 27:55; Acts 1:14; Acts 18:26; Phil 4:3; Luke 2:36-38)

 Equality 

The scripture is clear that in Christ, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)" As well, Acts 2:17-18 says, "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

God expects all church members (male and female) to use the gifts God has given them (within the guidelines in scripture and in reverence to God's order and design)

Luke 12:48- …Everyone to whom much is given, of him will much be required…

These are truths which reveal the equality of men and women. However, equality need not mean similarity. Neither should it produce envy and jealousy; but appreciation, dependancy, and love. (1 Cor 12). God chooses whom he desires not based on any form of superiority, but his will. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8). So how should church ministry look? It should always be done in an attitude of reverence and submission to those in authority, and to Gods design and order.

Gender distinction NEVER endorses abuse of authority, and oppression since in all these texts those in leadership are given mandates to rule with godliness and love. Jesus taught that love is the marker a real faith in Christ. Love must be subject to Christ's example.

Written By David J Lynn

Scriptural references

Family

1 Peter 3:1-6 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Ephesians 5:22 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord…as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it…Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies…let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Titus 2:4 - …Women… be sober… love their husbands... love their children…be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Colossians 3:18-19 18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. '''

Church

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

1 Timothy 2:12; 3:15-16 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety… I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 Corinthians 14:33-38 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also says the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be…

Titus 1:5-9… you should set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly…must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8…a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1 Timothy 3:1-12,14-15 …if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice… he must have a good report of them which are without… 8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well….I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

"Declaration Inter Insigniores on the question of the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood." Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, October 15, 1976.

Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (On Ordination to the Priesthood)." Pope John Paul II, May 22, 1994.

"Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignnitatem (On the Dignity of Women)." Pope John Paul II, August 15, 1988.

Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Christian views of women edits
Hi David, I am glad that you are filling out the section in the article regarding the Biblical evidence for making a distinction between men and women's roles. However, I still don't think it makes sense to have both sections, which are saying the opposite thing, have "equal roles" in the title. That's why I think it makes sense to have the second section be called "Biblical arguments for distinct roles".

There is a further reason that I don't think the second section should say "equal roles"; to say so is arguably not NPOV. Although many people would disagree, other people might think that the two roles described in that section really are not equal. For that reason a neutral term like "distinct", or "different", makes the most sense, rather than "equal" or "unequal". Zach 01:49, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi again, I haven't heard back from you, but I noticed you changed the heading wording on this page. I'll take that as you being OK with this... let me know if you're not. I'm going to go ahead and changed the wording on the article page then. Zach 23:20, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I got your message. I have no problem with that. I changed it, but I checked it another day and noticed someone put it back. I believe that is a very minor change and should not be a source of contention. Anyway, you have a good day. Hope you enjoyed my contribution. David 11:56, 19 Apr 2005.
 * Yes, I did; thanks for that. It was a huge gap in the page. Zach 00:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)