User talk:Dbachmann/Sair al-Okul

WPARAB WPPoetry

highly dubious. The manuscript is only ever mentioned in crackpot Hindutva literature. The "factoids" regarding its compilations are due to Stephen Knapp's Proof of Vedic Culture's Global Existence. Knapp claims the manuscript was compiled in 1742 under the orders of "Turkish ruler Sultan Salim". Selim III was born in 1769, and ruled from 1789. The sultan in 1742 was Mahmud I. Since even the bibliographic details, and the alleged edition dates are taken from Hindutva conspiracy literature, it seems dubious that the manuscript exists in the first place. --dab (𒁳) 16:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Similarly, the name of "Abu Abdul Asamai" (variant "Abu Amir Asamai"), supposedly a Rashidun poet whose compositions are found in the anthology, only ever shows up, as "the poet Laureate of Harun al-Rashid's court" on trashy Hindutva websites. dab (𒁳) 16:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

lol, this is a classic case of crackpot literature propagating. Bad authors copying from worse. The page of the manuscript claimed by Oak as containing the text of the inscription was 315. here is a chap quoting "page 197"
 * "an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry titled Se’-arul Oqul. Page 197 of this anthology contains a poem praising the Vedas composed by a poet named Labi bin Akhtab bin Turfa, who lived 2300 years before Mohammed, that is, about 4000 years ago. " -- these Hindutva crackpots are never satisfied with mere nonsense, it has to be nonsense aged at least four millennia o_O...

There are a few  Persian books with names containing al-`Oqul, I found the Javaher al-`Oqul (17th century) and a medieval Rouzat al-`Oqul preserved in fragments. No Se`ar al-`Oqul (vel. sim.) so far. dab (𒁳) 17:00, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is another one quoting Oak (1984). Nobody seems to have ever seen this manuscript except for Mr. Oak. MH Pahoja, Antiquity and Origin of the Term 'Hindu'  is thus aware of the 1984 version of Oak's story:
 * In this anthology is included a poem by Prophet Mohammed's uncle Omar-bin-e-Hassham. The poem is in praise of Mahadev (Shiva), and uses 'Hind' for India and 'Hindu' for Indians. Some verses are quoted below:
 * Wa Abaloha ajabu armeeman Mahadevo
 * Manojail ilamuddin minhum wa sayattaru
 * (If but once one worships Mahadev with devotion,
 * One will attain the ultimate salvation.)
 * Wa sahabi Kay yam feema Kamil Hinda e Yauman,
 * Wa Yakulam na latabahan foeennak Tawajjaru.
 * ( Oh Lord grant me but one day's sojourn in Hind,
 * Where one can attain spiritual bliss.)
 * Massayare akhalakan hasanan Kullahum,
 * Najumam aja at Summa gabul Hindu.
 * ( But one pilgrimage there gets one all merit,
 * And the company of great Hindu saints.)
 * The same anthology has another poem by Labi-bin-e Akhtab bin-e Turfa who is dated 2300 before Mohammed i.e. 1700 B.C. This poem also uses 'Hind' for India and 'Hindu' for Indian. The poem also mentions the four Vedas Sama, Yajur, Rig and Athar.

dab (𒁳) 17:10, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Now, it is in principle perfectly possible that there was Hindu influence on 6th century Arabia. Even a surviving poem mentioning Mahadeva would be within the realm of the possible. But it is unthinkable a collection of pre-Islamic Arabic poetry wouldn't be all over Arabist scholarship. The fact that this poem, and even the manuscript that contains it, appears to be known only to crackpot Hindu nationalist authors as good as establishes that this is fake, or at least a completely garbled version of a much more pedestrian case (such as, an 18th century Ottoman manuscript mentioning Hinduism, doh). dab (𒁳) 17:20, 13 July 2008 (UTC)