User talk:Debbieg family researcher

February 2022
Welcome to Wikipedia. We appreciate your contributions, but in one of your recent edits, it appears that you have added original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and personal experiences—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. Thank you. Secretlondon (talk) 12:48, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You cannot use your own research - it needs to have been published by acceptable, encyclopaedic sources. Secretlondon (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

I will ensure i only change the data on General Debbieg where an externally published source is available and can be explicitly referenced.

Hugh Debbieg
I see you've recently added info to this page about the subject's wife and descendants. However, the sources as you provide them are unverifiable. You should provide URLs so that other editors can confirm your interpretation of the sources. I've located one of the sources you mention (1), but this only seems to say that Debbieg married a sister of Sir Henry Seton. I don't see from whence you are sourcing her Christian name or the supposed third son born of the union. This information would have to be quite obvious in the sources for it to be included in the wikipedia article. Regards, Ficaia (talk) 22:30, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

We know that Hugh Debbieg married Janet Seton (sister of sir Henry Seton, the 4th Baronet of Abercorn) because her christian name is on the birth records for both their second son (Henry born on 27th sept 1767), and their third son (Hugh born on 12th January 1769), as both these records are on the ancestor web sites (findmypast.co.uk and ancestry.co.uk), a copy of their baptisms can also be found from the same sources at the scotch church at Swallow street London. Fortunately Debbieg is a very rare name, so its easy to find. Hugh, the third son, and ancestor of the remaining Debbieg family is also to be found on many of the Royal Calendars from 1805 to 1827, once again easily searchable via findmypast.co.uk which provides the original register entries for the Exchequer office in Whitehall. What i don't fully understand is the level of referencing i need to include to get a small change accepte, or is there another way where i can provide the additional data and evidential references, and you put it in, in an acceptable fashion to Wikipedia ?
 * Ancestry etc sounds like your own research. The royal calendars may be okay. We need a published secondary source. For example - books or academic papers on the subject. Secretlondon (talk) 00:11, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
 * This source (1) seems to confirm that Debbieg married a sister of Sir Henry Seton, 4th Baronet, of Abercorn. Can you provide links to the royal calendars you mentioned? Ficaia (talk) 09:39, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

The Royal Kalendar 1805, was a book published by C & W Galabin: London, every year (in those days) that contained the names of staff, ministers and military officers serving in the Government for that calendar year. You can actually buy an original copy of the Royal Kalendar 1805 today online, but also the entries and data are searchable via Findmypast and the original image of each page is retreivable and downloadable, i tried to paste the actual page from the Royal Kalendar 1805 into this talk post but it wouldn't work. These work registers show that both hugh (third son of General Debbieg) and indeed clement (first son, after he retired from the army) worked in the Tontine office of the Exchequer in Whitehall, Clement for a few years, but Hugh from 1805 to 1827, shortly before he died. If you were to share an email address i would happily send you the pages. Otherwise I am not sure how to find them externally (to Findmypast ?) if you know what i mean. please advise. Otherwise happy to just go with the additional fact that General aDebbieg married the sister of Sir Henry Seton. We know it was Janet Seton as both her marraige certificate, and baptism certificates of Hugh and Henry both show her christian name as janet, and Sir Henry had a sister Janet, so we are not in doubt, in fact other online biographies refer to Janet, but nevertheless We are happy to leave her name out, if you think its for the best.Debbieg family researcher (talk) 14:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
 * We can include any facts we like as long as we can source them to somewhere acceptable. Online biographies can be good - it depends who published it, and how credible they are. I think the Royal Kalenders should be acceptable as a source, depending on what they say. If its just a list of staff how do we know that these are the sons and not just not namesakes?


 * Identifying_and_using_primary_sources is worth reading, as is No_original_research. I think most of your sources count as primary sources as they are original archival sources. We prefer to reference books which use the original sources - secondary sources. I'm uncomfortable with using birth and marriage certificates but I can see they could be used for some things (date of birth, for example, if we can't get from anywhere better). In your example above - you know Sir Henry had a daughter called Janet, but you don't know that Debbieg married that Janet Seton, rather than a completely different person with the same name. Secretlondon (talk) 23:10, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok - i think we will make small changes one at a time, starting with easy referenceable changes, and see where we go from there. I understand you can't accept me as a genuine editor with new material just because i would like you to, and therefore you want me to use externally referenced material. The dilemma here for the family and for me is we know and have read the previous published and referenceable biographical accounts from reliable sources on General Debbieg, and whilst they are generally accurate around his career and military service, they are not fully accurate or complete around Debbieg's family life, in fact most, in fairness, make some reference to that. The ones who have already concluded her name as Janet must have done so from far less physical evidence than we currently possess as a family, as none of them reference the source of their data in that regard, where they do its the same baptisms records we have. One even says Janet was probably a British settler who married General Debbieg in Canada. We actually have her marraige record to Captain Debbieg in 1763 in Edinburgh, we have the baptism certificates of two of their three children Henry and Hugh at the Scotch church in Swallow street in 1767 and 1769 respectively, showing their mother as Janet, we have Sir Henry Seton saying Colonel Debbieg married his sister. The Scottish peerage shows only one Janet Seton as a sibling of Sir Henry's. You are setting the bar incredibly high for us, higher it feels than for the people whose data populated the original page, nevertheless the family have tasked me to try to get the entry to properly reflect fact, rather than previously published internet content of varying levels of accuracy and completeness. Therefore I respect your supervision on this, and I will continue in good faith and hope i can meet your criteria for evidence. Thanks for your continued advice. Debbieg family researcher (talk) 09:30, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not because you are new. We're a different project from family history. Secretlondon (talk) 21:38, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks indeed for including the addition of the Seton connection to Hugh Debbieg, also we are happy to exclude her christian name as you suggest might be prudent. As the Debbieg family today is descended from General Debbieg's third son (also called Hugh, born 1769), Hugh Jnr had the only child to go on and bear a family of their own,(her name Amelia Elizabeth Debbieg, born 1815 Westminster to Hugh Debbieg and Elizabeth Jordan). As far as we know, Clement's wife Lady Chatlotte Butler died shortly after their marraige, and Henry was a career soldier, to date, as far as we know, Clement and Henry have no publicly recorded offspring. I will put together the references from the Royal Kalendars of Hugh's position in Whitehall such that we can confirm the three sons as Clement, Henry and Hugh. It is important to mention Hugh (we feel) as he worked for William Pitt the younger, William Pitt and General Debbieg clashed several times in writing and in parliament over the defence of Britain and its sea and maritime preparedness against the French Fleet. in fact the New York Historical Society (Patricia D Klingenstein library) have provided us with the 62 page letter from Debbieg to William Pitt from 14th October 1786 on the understanding its for reference purposes only and not for publication, so I am not sure its possible to mention it. I will make the next and probably last change when i can ensure the information on Hugh is packaged and verifiable. Just as an aside, and to maybe make you feel more comfortable, the Debbieg name is very very rare indeed, it is a derivative of Debbige, so there are fewer than 20 Debbiegs from the entire searchable history of the ancenstry sites or the Government General register office, making confusion over names and relationships extremely unlikely. Once again many thanks for perservering with us, we do appreciate it.Debbieg family researcher (talk) 14:05, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I have just made a small edit clarifying the existence and dates-of-death of Debbiegs three sons, Clement in 1819, and Henry and Hugh in 1828, via the obitury notices in the newspaper from those years. I am not fully sure how to put the Link in on the main section, to point back to the 'source' section. If you agree this small change could you do that for me. The source from the Commercial Chronicle is confirmation of Clement's death in 1819 which was already in the main Wikipedia text but without a reference, the second is a probate notice from The Scotsman newspaper explaining the recent deaths in 1828 of the two remaining sons Henry and Hugh in 1828, and requesting people to come forward to claim the estate of General Debbieg, and his recently deceased children.Debbieg family researcher (talk) 12:06, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you copy the URL links here? Without them, I can't verify the sources. Ficaia (talk) 13:07, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Ficaia - thanks - I have just noticed something really important, which means we may not need to add newspaper archives or more URLs, or more complication of any kind. The first reference book already in the current Bibliography by Susan Hots, the biographical dictionary of civil engineers in Great Britain and Ireland, which appears to form a large part of the initial download of this entry, when you click on to its URL, on page 174 (already referenced), the author already states that Debbieg had three sons (Hugh, Henry and Clement), and that his wife was called Jannet. So if you are ok with that, i will simply take those two facts and add them in, as the link and bibliographical source is already explicitly referenced. In that way i have changed nothing other than to align the wikipedia article with its prime bibliographical reference book ?Debbieg family researcher (talk) 16:25, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * That's great. I've added an inline reference. Ficaia (talk) 17:06, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Ficaia - Many thanks indeed, the text now fully aligns with the established published biographies, and just for interest, it also fully aligns with the family birth, death and marraige certificates, and other records in our possession for the Debbiegs, so we are quite content its wholly accurate in regard to his wife and children. We do not intend to edit this further at this point as we fully appreciate that the prime purpose of the entry is the life and career of General Debbieg himself. thanks for your help and secretlondon. Debbieg family researcher (talk) 17:38, 23 February 2022 (UTC)