User talk:Deisenbe/Archive 7

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Your GA nomination of Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882 you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Renata3 -- Renata3 (talk) 01:02, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, wondering if you saw the review and if you have any comments? I apologize if the review sounds harsh. It's my style, I call it "blunt force trauma"... Hope the comments can be addressed. It's a neat little article! Renata (talk) 23:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting critique, thank you for your time and effort. I didn't realize it was so deficient. I'm not going to work on it more since a great deal of additional work would be required, and I'm working on other things. deisenbe (talk) 00:38, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Renata (talk) 04:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882
The article Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882 you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882 for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Renata3 -- Renata3 (talk) 04:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination of U.S. presidential impeachment
Hello! Your submission of U.S. presidential impeachment at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 23:22, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Deisenbe, it's been another two weeks, and you haven't responded despite being active elsewhere on Wikipedia. Do you plan to pursue this nomination? If so, the sourcing issues need to be dealt with. As nominator, it is your responsibility to bring the article into compliance with the DYK criteria if you wish it to be run at DYK, either by adding sourcing or by removing the material that doesn't have a reliable source out there to back it up. If we don't hear from you in seven days, the nomination will probably be marked for closure. I hope we do hear from you. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * When I made the nomination the article was 4,477. Now it's 63,575, with 25 editors in the last 30 days. I don't feel it would be a wise use of my time to work on it further. So cancel the nomination. Sorry. deisenbe (talk) 08:51, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Union Literary Institute
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Union Literary Institute you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Hog Farm -- Hog Farm (talk) 05:21, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Union Literary Institute
The article Union Literary Institute you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Union Literary Institute for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Hog Farm -- Hog Farm (talk) 06:01, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

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Your GA nomination of James Bradley (former slave)
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article James Bradley (former slave) you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of CaroleHenson -- CaroleHenson (talk) 04:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

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March 2020
Welcome to Wikipedia. We appreciate your contributions, but in one of your recent edits to American Colonization Society, it appears that you have added original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and personal experiences—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. ''I have been trying to explain the issue of original research and based on your comments here, I am seeing that I am not getting through. I thought this might help explain things more clearly.'' –CaroleHenson (talk) 07:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Please note from the conversation at Talk:James Bradley (former slave)/GA1, specifically that:
 * Other people have failed your other GA nominations. If you have others, I am unaware of them. And when I looked at the reasons why, it's pretty much because of the things that I have been saying to you.
 * Excessive use of quotes - which becomes a copyright violation if they are long. See Quotation of non-free text
 * What appears to be original research.
 * Not citing all the content
 * Need to rely more on secondary sources that are current


 * And that it seems that you are looking to build a blog or self-published articles rather than being here to build an encyclopedia. This kind of repeated behavior can result in your being blocked.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:41, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. –CaroleHenson (talk) 18:28, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I took a look at this incident and it reminds me of another case where there was similar concern that the topics were based too heavily on primary sources. I suggest that you consult with User:Iridescent about such work if you continue to have further difficulty as he wrote those pages and so may be able to advise and assist. Myself, I wrote a page about Merikins, which seems similar to some of your work, and would be happy to help too. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What kind of help can you provide? deisenbe (talk) 16:32, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I am especially familiar with deletion policy and the Did You Know processes but am open to any reasonable requests. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I hope you consider the very nice offer. I know that you must be angry with me at this point, and I understand that. This could be a lovely crossroads for you to leverage your knowledge and skills as an educator, with a tremendous knowledge-base, and become a greater part of the Wikipedia community. It's often quiet, but if people are doing a good job, it's noticed and you find out in time how respected you are for your quality, policy-based work. As an aside, I had to adjust my writing skills as well, and went through a bit of a hard time until I was familiar with the policies and guidelines.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * And, if you can forgive me, I would be happy to help in any way I could.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:53, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

It would be useful if someone would explain how to distinguish between newspapers which are primary sources, and if I understand correctly should not be used, and newspapers which are secondary sources and may be used. deisenbe (talk) 09:06, 11 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Did someone say that a newspaper is a primary source?


 * I am trying to figure out what the issue may be... is it that old newspapers are used? There is a train of thought that it is better to use current sources, where possible, because they have the benefit of having stood the test of time and/or subject to historians straightening out things that were misrepresented or wrong in earlier publications. That applies to books and other published material, too.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:16, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that "old" newspapers are primary sources and should not be used, even if the information in them is not available in any more recent source? Note that the WP Library has given me access to two databases of old newspapers, newspapers.com and newspaperarchive.com. What for, why are they even in WP library, if "archival" (old) newspapers cannot be used? I honestly do not understand what the policy on newspapers as sources is, and it's an important question as I've used the two databases heavily. deisenbe (talk) 11:33, 11 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I do find this addressed in Reliable sources, which seems pretty positive on old papers as sources. Assuming for the sake of argument that no more recent source exists, is Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882 adequately sourced? The reviewer seems to have a different view of old newspapers: "article relies entirely and exclusively on press articles of the day, which are too close to primary sources and which bring up concerns with WP:OR." deisenbe (talk) 12:05, 11 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I use old newspapers, particularly for obituaries of people that are the subject of the article. They can also provide some information that isn't found in books or more current sources. But I don't rely on them.


 * I disagree that if it is old that it is too close to being a primary source. That doesn't make sense to me.


 * But it is better to rely on more current secondary sources (over time discrepancies and errors can get sorted out by historians, etc.) I will take a look at Greenwood.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * See if you can find any secondary sources. I've given up. deisenbe (talk) 16:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I am not finding books, etc. re: the insurrection. I have finding books with some mention of the railroad... and a similarly named earlier railroad, "Geneva, Hornellsville, and Pine Creek Railroad". So, I think it is possible that this article won't pass GA - it could be considered a notability issue that there are not more modern sources. I think you did the best that you could, re sources. That is what is out there. (Just had a thought, maybe there is a history of the town that mentions it, but just isn't fitting the search criteria I am using.)


 * The key issue is that it relies on quotes. This is a huge copyvio issue. I don't mind taking a crack at this article. And then request a Copyvio-revdel to hide earlier versions.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Silly, silly, silly me - these are now in the public domain and are not copyright violations! No revdel. But the quotes should be paraphrased.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Great job
You've been doing a great job in the last couple of days - citing content, making edits based upon the GA reviewer's notes, etc... Great job! It's very exciting to have someone of your background use your skills and knowledge - along with WP guidelines - to make good, interesting articles.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I never had looked at any of these. Some of the reviewers' comments are well taken, although you won't be surprised that some I have problems with. It may be a week before I'm finished with them. deisenbe (talk) 16:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good! I am glad you are doing that. And, no, I am not surprised.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:54, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Rose Livingston
If you are interested, it would be great to get your opinion on Rose Livingston. I wrote based upon the sources that I found, but there are some weird discrepancies.
 * She said she was born in Hamilton, Ohio, but I am not finding a Rose Livingston in Ohio... or having been from Ohio in census, etc. records. The census in 1930, which I am convinced is her because she lived at 49th Street at that time, states that she was from New York. In just one article she says she was raised in Texas, but she said to one source that she was taken from her home in Ohio. There are no other census records for her that I could find. (Maybe Rose was a nickname or her middle name? Or, she had changed her first and/or last name.)
 * She talked very, very little about her background. Nothing about her parents of family, either before being kidnapped... or after she was rescued in 1903.
 * She said she gave birth to two children, one at age 12 and one at age 15, but never talked about what became of them.
 * It was a number of years of having rescued girls/young woman before she began talking in newspapers about having been a kidnapped girl / sex slave. There are just a few articles where she said she had been a sex slave.
 * She said she began being interested in saving girls / women from sex slavery / prostitution after seeing one woman strung out on drugs.
 * She said she was born in a Methodist household, read the bible, and also read Christian Science books, but her friend of about 50 years (who was Catholic), had her main memorial service conducted by a rabbi... and she looks Jewish.
 * She is said to have been rescued in 1903. She states in a couple of places that she was captive from age 10 (about 1886 based on her age at her death) in NYC Chinatown to 1903. But, she mentions after she was rescued of coming to New York to become a foreign missionary. (Maybe she went home, and then came back to NYC, maybe as a sex slave, she was taken across state borders???)
 * She says her captives got her addicted to opium.
 * There are a few (not highly reliable) sources that say she was born about 1885. I think she may have misconstrued her age a time or two.

The discrepancies seem so keen that I wonder...
 * Did she change her name?
 * Did she say she was Christian, but was really Jewish, to avoid concerns re: racism?
 * Was she really from NYC all along? Or, from Ohio or Texas but with a different first and/or last name?
 * Did she make up the story of being a sex slave to garner "street cred"?
 * She talked about the women that she most wanted to help were women who came from households that were not understanding... and particularly about women in general needing to be more understanding... that children decide to run away and are lured into becoming a sex worker. Is that her?

Any thoughts about that? It's a very interesting article, I find, because it is clear that nothing stopped her from rescuing girls. She was physically assaulted... sometimes severely... at least 22 times. But the five foot nothing - 90 pound woman kept on going and basically accepting a life of poverty to save girls.

I have thought it would be great to have your thoughts, if you have a bit of free time. Your thoughts on this would be great!!! I know this is a lot to consider. I am going to do a bit more digging to see if I can find out more.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much for you edits to the article. It's much appreciated!!!–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:19, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Books about the American Civil War


A tag has been placed on Category:Books about the American Civil War requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz Read! Talk! 02:04, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Dispute resolution - James Bradley (former slave)
Hi Deisenbe,

I don't know if you saw the dispute resolution update here or not, but a user MrClog stated there and reiterated on his talk page that we should go for a WP:3O. See also User_talk:MrClog

I wanted to check in with you to see if you want to post it... or have me post it.

Just as a check-in, too, I have been thinking about what the underlying assumption is that Bradley's narrative should be the main source... and that secondary sources, like newspapers, are not valid / should be removed. I think for that to be true, it would mean that Bradley never talked to anyone about his life... And, no one recorded the events of his life after he wrote his narrative. Is that your assumption?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:43, 20 March 2020 (UTC)


 * For any content that is covered by his narrative, I am happy to ensure that the citations for that content are his narrative.


 * I still think, though, that it's likely that he shared information with others about his life before and after the writing of the narrative (which was just a couple of pages if I remember correctly) or that people witnessed after he got to Ohio... i.e., so there may be things that happened in his life that 1) didn't make it into his narrative and 2) were shared with someone else, and that information was recorded in newspapers, school records, etc. –CaroleHenson (talk) 18:55, 20 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and opened a third opinion request here. It looks like nothing else is posted to that page. It seems as if once a volunteer chooses to help with the issue, they will respond on the article talk page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:16, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * If I understand you, with the changes I understand you will make that takes care of most of the issue.


 * Here is the biggest statement from his contemporaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Deisenbe/sandbox/Lane_Debates#James_Bradley (Don't go over that article, it isn't ready.)


 * Also https://www.newspapers.com/clip/38875897/slaves-and-religious-missions-mention/, https://www.newspapers.com/image/34584643/?terms=%22James%2BBradley%22
 * There could be some evidence other than his statement that reached the modern writers through a conduit we don't know. It's not out of the question. But if that had happened, it would have triggered a news article of its own ("Diary of James Bradley discovered", "Letters from James Bradley", "My memories of the slave who bought his freedom"). I've gone looking through everything I can think of, newspapers, though I didn't look at census records and you could probably do that easier than I could. And James Bradley is not an unusual name.


 * If would most likely have been in The Liberator, which was a central clearing-house for anti-slavery info, but he isn't there past 1837. deisenbe (talk) 21:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I will go ahead a go through the article and ensure that everywhere that the info came from the narrative, that source is used. To ensure that the article does not get tagged for reliance on primary sources, I think I should leave in modern sources as back-up to show that information got published in secondary sources. But you will know that all places where it's mentioned in the narrative is covered.


 * I was wrong, I did replace primary sources with secondary sources. You will easily see where I am adding the slave narrative as a source because I will be adding the specific pages using rp, starting with page 106.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:00, 22 March 2020 (UTC)


 * ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:42, 22 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I think we are getting closer, but it seems you have an assumption that unless it says that someone talked to Bradley, then the source isn't a good one. How often do articles or books state where a source of info came from, unless it's a specific quote?


 * It seems, your assumption is that unless it says who it came from, that anything in newspapers is wrong. I cannot wrap my mind around that. Reliable newspapers and books are considered go-to sources for Wikipedia.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

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Your GA nomination of William G. Allen
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article William G. Allen you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of HaEr48 -- HaEr48 (talk) 03:41, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of William G. Allen
The article William G. Allen you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:William G. Allen for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of HaEr48 -- HaEr48 (talk) 13:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)