User talk:Demetrios1993/Archive 4

Leo Sgouros
Hi Demetrios. I appreciate your edits on the Skura article, it was rather difficult finding reliable academic sources on them so any help in that regard is more than welcome. The connection between Leo Sgouros and the Albanian Skura is something that has intrigued me and was even more difficult to verify in the literature. As you may know, Xhufi cites Franz Babinger in stating that it is accepted in academia that Sgouros was a Byzantine magnate of Albanian origin, although - admittedly - the citation is a little unclear and I have yet to verify it by obtaining the source itself. I was wondering if you could provide the excerpts from Vlachopoulou on the origins of the Sgouros? Also, just to add a little discussion; the Skura were active players and integrated members of the Byzantine political milieu, as such I do not think it would have been impossible for branches of the family to have been moved south into the Peloponnese prior to the mass Albanian migrations for administrative purposes as state functionaries. Also, we know of individuals from this family who in archival sources bore the form Sgouros as opposed to Skura, as is the case of Progonos Sgouros. Of course however, sources are needed in order to prove the Skura = Sgouros claim in regards to Leo Sgouros specifically. Let me know what you think, thanks.--Lezhjani1444 (talk) 12:10, 26 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello, and thanks. Yes, i did read what Xhufi wrote; i have access to his article. Though i found his claim bizarre, especially since i was already aware of scholars who clearly describe him as Greek. But then again, Xhufi is not a Byzantinist, and doesn't expand on Leon Sgouros biographically. Furthermore, he only provided two old references; Sathas (1880) and Babinger (1964). Out of the two, i only managed to check the former, who wrote the following in French:
 * Le nom de Sgouros, le célèbre seigneur de Nauplie qui avait voulu aux Thermopyles s'emparer de la couronne de Grèce convoitée par les envahisseurs Lombards, est un nom albanais (sgouris), porté par d'autres princes albanais, comme Maurice Buas Sgouros, despote d'Arta (1400), et les comtes d'Albanie Sevastos Sgouros (1274–1278) dépossédés par les Thopias.
 * That's not based on some extensive research though. Specifically, he only mentioned that the name Sgouros is supposedly of Albanian origin (sgouris [?]), because some members of the Spata family – who lived two centuries after Leon – also bore it. Of course, when he wrote that, he wasn't aware of the fact that at least 71 other Sgouroi (of all branches) are recorded prior of them; naturally, since such archival details only surfaced much later. For all we know, some of the Spata had this name or epithet, due to an intermarriage with a member of the Skuraj family (and thus bore a corruption of that name), or due to an intermarriage with a Peloponnesian Sgouros member (as they were already in Greece during this period), or it could just be a nickname since sgourós (σγουρός) is a Greek epithet denoting someone with wavy hair. All three are possible in my opinion. He also based his thinking on the existence of a sebastos Sgouros (1274–1278) who was a noble in Albania; he seems to be referring to a Sgouros that Vlachopoulou includes amongst the Peloponnesian Sgouroi, and according to Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit (entry 25043), flourished between 1282 and 1298 as a priest in the diocese of Varavlonía (Bar [Montenegro] and Avlon [Albania]) that was located in Vlorë. Of course, just because we have a priest by the name of Sgouros during that time in Vlorë, we shouldn't automatically assume an Albanian origin. For example, Robert Elsie in his Historical Dictionary of Albania (2010) wrote that during the Middle Ages, Vlorë was inhabited by Byzantine Greeks; so, it's not strange for Byzantine Greeks to have lived there during this period.
 * Regarding excerpts from Vlachopoulou, a relevant quote that concerns the origin of the family from Nafplio, is the following:
 * Οι Σγουροί (Σγούροι) ή Σγουρόπουλοι, καθώς και οι λίγο μεταγενέστεροι συγγενικοί τους Σγουρομάλλαι/Σγουρομαλλαίοι (Σγουρομάλληδες), υπήρξαν μια από τις σημαντικές αρχοντικές οικογένειες της μεσαιωνικής Πελοποννήσου, με καταγωγή από τη Ναυπλία (Ναύπλιο) καθώς και με αξιοσημείωτο παρελθόν. Η κύρια εποχή ανόδου και ακμής των Σγουρών συμπίπτει με την υστεροβυζαντινή περίοδο (11ος-15ος αιώνες), κατά δε την τελευταία φάση των υστεροβυζαντινών χρόνων (1204/1261 μ.Χ. και εξής) εμφανίζονται στις πηγές και οι τύποι Σγουρανός, Σγουρής, Σγουρισμένος, Σγουρίτζης, Σγουρογιάννης/Σγουρογιαννού.
 * She actually cites a number of scholars, such as Jürgen Hoffmann (1974), Johannes Koder & Friedrich Hild (1976), Aneta Ilieva (1991), and Alexios Savvides (1994); all Byzantinists. Then, there are a number of mentions by her, concerning the Greek identity of Leon Sgouros. It's also interesting that two contemporary sources describe him as Greek; i am referring to Geoffrey de Villehardouin (1204–1205) and Michael Choniates (1207). The former wrote the following:
 * ... lors que uns Griex, halz hom qui ere appellez l' Asgur.
 * This translates as "except for a Greek, a great person, whose name was Sgouros"; as Vlachopoulou writes, the names Asgur, Argur, and Argurus are western variations for Sgouros, used specifically by Geoffrey de Villehardouin and Pope Innocent III. Furthermore, the Byzantine Greek and enemy of his, Michael Choniates, referred to Sgouros as a coethnic. As Anthony Kaldellis (2007) writes:
 * In a long letter of ca. 1207 castigating the violent ambitions of the provincial warlord Leon Sgouros, Michael [Choniates] laments "that we were not only oppressed by those men of a different phylon" – meaning the Latins – "but this man who is allegedly of the same ethnos as us added to our woes . . . The heterogeneis are now milder to the Romans in comparison to this homogenês." Here genos, ethnos, phylon, refer to the Romans, of whom Leon Sgouros was one, despite his aggressive behavior.
 * By the way, "Romans" (Ῥωμαῖοι) is how Byzantine Greeks self-identified at the time. Another important source, written a century later, is the French text of the Chronicle of the Morea. In it, Leon Sgouros is also described as a Greek. Here is a literal translation by Anne Van Arsdall and Helen Moody, published in The Old French Chronicle of Morea: An Account of Frankish Greece After the Fourth Crusade (2018):
 * There happened to be a valiant Greek man named Leon Sgouros, who was lord of Corinth, Argos, and Nauplia.
 * There's more, that can also be included in the article.
 * Now, concerning the Skuraj, i know that they were part of the Byzantine state apparatus, but it should be noted that their earliest members are from the 13th century. On the other hand, the Peloponnesian Sgouroi are first attested in the 11th century, and belonged to the local aristocracy from the very beginning, which suggests an even earlier presence within Byzantine society. If we were to assume a relation to the Skuraj, wouldn't it be more likely for the Peloponnesian family to have immigrated north instead, towards the newly formed Despotate of Epirus? After all, few know it, but the aforementioned Despotate received many Peloponnesian refugees during the time of Leon Sgouros. As Donald MacGillivray (1976) writes, citing Demetrios Chomatenos, who was the Archbishop of Ohrid:
 * Chamaretos was duped into marrying the daughter of his influential neighbor in Lakonia, George Daimonoioannes, a shameless collaborator with the Latin enemy. In due course, when it was clear that his life was in danger from the treachery of his wife and father-in-law, Chamaretos fled to take refuge with Theofore Doukas in Epiros. Theodore wrote a personal letter to Daimonoioannes on befalf of his honoured guest. It spoke of plans for the liberation of the Peloponnese and it rebuked Daimonoioannes for keeping his daughter there instead of allowing her to come and join her husband. Epiros, Theodore wrote, was full of countless refugees from the Peloponnese, many of them persons of rank and wealth, and the lady would certainly find herself among friends and compatriots.
 * In a prior page, he also wrote the following:
 * The sack of Constantinople by the crusaders in 1204 not unnaturally produced a flood or refugees from the capital. Some went east and some west. Demetrios Chomatianos estimated that at least half of those who fled if not the greater number found their way to Epiros, among them men of senatorial rank. The most illustrious refugee was the Emperor Alexios III himself, though his escape took place before the event of 1204.
 * As we already know, Leon Sgouros was married to the daughter of Alexios III Angelos, Eudokia Angelina, and these events took place about one and a half century after the first attestation of the Peloponnesian Sgouroi, and about two centuries prior of the attested migration of Albanians to the Peloponnese. Regardless of all that, any connection at this point is still very hypothetical. Demetrios1993 (talk) 09:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thorough reply Demetrios, it was certainly interesting to read. Given the current historiography, I have to agree with you that any attempt to place Leo Sgouros as a member of the Albanian Skura is tentative and dubious at best.
 * What's interesting is that the primary sources (e.g., Venetian and Ottoman tax registers) indicate that Skura was a pan-Albanian anthroponym which was not necessarily tied to a specific fis. It appears among Albanian peasants from entirely different regions who should not have had any common patrilineal kinship and were certainly not members of the nobility. The same goes for personal names or patronyms such as Shpani and Suma, which are usually associated with specific tribal communities or feudal families. At first I was under the impression that Skura was ultimately a derivation of the Greek sgourós, however, linguistically this has started to seem unlikely to me as the latter is pronounced with a soft /g/ and likely would not have developed into Skura if it entered Albanian directly from Medieval Greek. An association with shkorre/shkurre is intriguing, although it's possible that this developed into the current Albanian form via Greek influence. So perhaps both names are from different sources despite later being conflated with each other, though this is just conjecture from my part.
 * As for the 13th century sebastos from Albania mentioned by Xhufi, I think that this is actually in reference to the Savasto Maurus Scura who appears in 1274 as among the Albanian nobles who had come to an agreement with Charles I of Anjou and aligned themselves with the Angevins. This seems to have been the general position of the Skura family as a whole since Zacharias et Georgius Scura are also recorded among those nobles, right after Maurus. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 13:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Regarding the 13th century Sevastos Sgouros (1274–1278) from Albania, it was actually mentioned by Sathas (1880). But you are probably correct; he appears to be the same as Savasto Maurus Scura mentioned by Malaj (2020). Though, concerning, Savasto pertains to the title of sebastos, not his actual name. This is clear by looking at some of the other names in the footnote, that also bear the same title:
 * The other nobles were: "Savasto Maurus Scura, Zacharias et Georgius Scura, savasto Yonima, savasto Paulus Verona, savasto Blasius, Savasto Paulus Sanbonbruno, savasto Yetquy, savasto Petrus Misie, Blado Bletista (!) miles, savasto Petrus Clange, savasto Tanusius Bessossia, Theopia miles, savasto Demetrius Limius, savasto Tanus Barbuca, savasto Alexius Arianiti, Paulus Miles."
 * Furthermore, as Mario Cassar writes in his book The Surnames of the Maltese Islands: An Etymological Dictionary (2003):
 * Gk. sebastos meaning "venerable". In med. Byzantium the name was also used as an honorific title ([...]). Cp. It. f.n. (and surname) Sebastiano (Eng Sebastian, Russian Sevastian). Related It. forms: Savasto/a, Savastra
 * Regarding the names of the families, their respective source could indeed be different. By the way, there is also skoúros (σκούρος) that was first attested in Medieval Greek; itself deriving from Venetian or Italian scuro, and ultimately from Latin obscūrus. Though, it could also be totally unrelated. Demetrios1993 (talk) 19:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, savasto is indeed the Latin/Italian form for sebastos. I included the title alongside his name as I thought it would be more informative, although perhaps I should include in brackets that savasto is simply just sebastos for readers who may not be aware of the connection. His first name, Maurus, may correlate to Albanian Marash (Maurus being a Latin rendition, similar examples include Tanusius for Tanush). The scuro or obscūrus etymology for Skura has been argued by some articles that I have read online, however, there aren't any reliable academic sources to support the connection. Nonetheless, it is interesting. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

You did well. Though, a wikilink could also be used instead of the parenthesis; like savasto Maurus Scura. There is also an "of" missing in the sentence; "... where three nobles [of] the Skura family appear ..." Demetrios1993 (talk) 14:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Elias Venezis was talking about Kırkağaç
Hi Demetrios, ⁣

Please check the sections below within Venezis' book. There you will see that he was not talking about İzmir, but talking about Kırkağaç Manisa. So he mentions that Kırkağaç was burned by the enemy (Greeks in later versions) from the Armenian houses. This is indeed the case because Kırkağaç also had an Armenian quarter and Turkish Military Archives (https://www.msb.gov.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/askeritariharsiv/11_turk_istiklal_harbi_bati_cephesi_buyuk_taarruzda_takip_harekat.pdf) in this publishing which uses the Greek Military Encyclopedia state that the Greek forces belonging to the Independent Regiment burned the town.

Σταθήκαμε στο Κίρκαγατς. Σταβλιστήκαμε σ' ένα μεγάλο κελάρι μιας εκκλησίας.

......

"Γιατί ο τόπος, κει κατά τ'Αρμένικα, ήταν καμένος απ' τόν εχτρό που είχε φύγει"

......

Περνώντας από ένα αλάνι (ανοιχτό μέρος) βρήκαμε πεπονόφλουδες — στο Κίρκαγατς βγαίνουν τα καλύτερα πεπόνια. Δε χορτάσαμε, μα ήταν κάτι πολύ δροσερό — σα γυναίκα εαρινή.

He also talks about the Melons of Kırkağaç and is indeed right, it has the best taste in Western Anatolia and ae even today exported abroad. This makes much more sense Venezis also mentions later in the book that he was in Bakır which is very close to Kırkağaç

Το Μπακίρ-κιοϊ είνε ίσαμε μιά ώρα απ'το Κιρκαγάτς. Αυτό τ'όνομα το τρέμαμε. Ήταν η πατρίδα του Μπακιρλή-εφέ. Αυτός τον καιρό που ο στρατός μας κρατούσε στην Ανατολή στάθηκε ένα αληθινό παλληκάρι. Δεν έσκυψε, πήρε το βουνό και πολεμούσε. Οι δικοί μας τότες τον τρέμαν. Μιά νύχτα πατήσαν το χωριό και τόν γυρεύαν. Δεν τον βρήκαν. Του σκοτώσαν τη μητέρα του και την αρρεβωνιαστικιά. Αυτήν μάλιστα λέγαν πως την κάψαν ζωντανή μες το σπίτι που βάλαν μπουρλότο.

The last sentence where he mentions that Bakırlı Efe's mother and fiancée were burned in the house was also taken out in the later versions.I'll update that too in another page.

So you can take out the sentence in the Great Fire of Smyrna and add it to Kırkağaç section.

Kind regards, ⁣

Utku Öziz Utku Öziz (talk) 14:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I see that you added the sentence in the Greek scorched-earth policy section of Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922). Since this passage pertains to Kırkağaç, i will remove it from Burning of Smyrna; as you requested. Though, you could have removed it as well. Demetrios1993 (talk) 05:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Vallahades
Hello, This source that you said about that, Vallahades speak until today Greek dialect, is from 1923. The first Generation who came, sure speak greek, but Today no any of a Vallahades descendt speak greek in turkey. Only Turkish, So please...Look in you tube, reportages about the Vallahades/Patriyotlar. They explain itseld that they speak only Turkish and they are Turks and sunni muslims. Here see, a reportage about patriyotlar/Vallahades in Turkey, with english subtitle...No any of this speak greek anymore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IitfYvD9Qw0 Nalanidil (talk) 10:52, 25 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Actually, the reference that is used is not from 1923, but from 2003. Furthermore, even though i personally don't dispute your claim, we cannot use this YouTube video as a source. In general, YouTube videos are not ideal as references for a number of reasons; per WP:NOTYOUTUBE, WP:VIDEOREF, and WP:RSPYT. However, in essence this small video you shared, doesn't contradict the claim in the article, which is based on a publication from 2003. You can listen to the interviewee after 3:52, where he says that their language was kept alive until 2005, and only after that year a gradual decline began. Furthermore, their identification as Turks is already mentioned in the same sentence. In any case, i am willing to rephrase the claim by including the year of the reference; per WP:ASOF. Namely:
 * As of 2003, there were still many Vallahades who were able to speak the Greek language, which they called Romeïka, and have become completely assimilated into the Turkish Muslim mainstream as Turks.
 * Demetrios1993 (talk) 11:31, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Your email
Hi, I got your email. This is something which should be discussed on-wiki, perhaps at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources. Thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:06, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Muslim Roma from Greece
@Demetrios1993, you know it very well that Muslim Roma from Greece was expelled in 1923, why you deleted it ? Nalanidil (talk) 10:26, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I added with Sources in english. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nalanidil (talk • contribs) 11:15, 1 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I already explained everything in my edit summary (diff). There was no mention of Muslim Roma in the main body of the article in order to justify its inclusion in the lead, let alone in the first sentence. Furthermore, you also accused me of removing the section (diff), which you then retracted (diff), hopefully having understood your mistake; i only rephrased it to improve readability. As for the subsequent edits you did and i just reviewed, they were also partially problematic; i explained why in my last edit summary. Demetrios1993 (talk) 23:30, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Private e-mail messages
I saw Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Archive 69 and I wanted to suggest to you: It's usually okay to use "unreliable" sources to remove or correct errors. If you've got an private e-mail message from an author that says "Wikipedia has misrepresented my paper on widgets; I said the widgets used on seaplanes needed to be 'hydrodynamically sound' and you've written 'aerodynamically stable' which isn't the same thing", then you could use that as a hint to check the article for errors. If you can't justify a straight-up correction based on the published, reliable sources that you can find, then you can tag the material as Dubious or remove it as being wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * , i am thankful to you for the valuable time you spared to write your suggestions. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:03, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Happy editing,  WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

İzzettin Paşa's report
Geia sou vre Dimitri!

How are you? Kala eisai; So nice to see that you are interested in this topic too. I am adding here the Turkish version of the Report. It has however some old words you may not know them in Google Translate. Are you learning Turkish?

1 nci Kolordu Komutanlığı

İstihbarat

Adet : 208/6122

5.10.1338

-

İzmir

1 nci Ordu Komutanlığı’na

İzmir büyük yangını 13 Eylül 38 Çarşamba günü saat 14:15 sonrada Ermeni mahallesinde birkaç noktadan başladı ve 15 Eylül’e kadar devam etti. Bu yangında yanan mahaller :  Ermeni mahallesi, Çalgıcıbaşı, Ayadimitri, Ayakaterine, Ayatrikona, Ayanikola, Surtakya, Hacıfranka mahalleleri kâmilen; Madamcani (nam-ı diğer Yenimahalle), Meyhaneboğazı, Fasolya, Plavmina, Frenk mahalleleri ve Birinci Kordon Ayavukla kısmen yanmıştır. Yanan binaların cins ve miktarı; tahminen 20-25 bin hane, dükkân ve mağazadır. Bunların içinde İzmir Tiyatrohanesi, Kramer Oteli, İzmir Palas, İzmir Posta ve Telgrafhanesi, Sporting klüp, Paris kahvehanesi, Fransız - İtalyan - İngiliz konsoloshaneleri, eski reji idaresi, Frenk mahallesindeki Ektayulo, Şerme, Bonmarşe, Şitayn, Luvr büyük mağazaları, Bakırcıyan ve Papasyan depoları, Ayayorgi caddesindeki büyük ticarethaneler, büyük Çuya hanı, müteaddit büyük hanlar, Ferhaneler, Pasaport civarındaki büyük oteller, Anadolu İtibarı millî Atina, Selanik Tunus ve Cezayir Osmanlı bankaları, Banko di Roma, Pasaport Dairesi, Fasolya, Plavsina ve Peştemalcılarbaşı karakolları velhasıl şehrin en mamur ve ticaretgâh olan kısmı dahildir. Yangın yerinin deniz cephesi tahminen 3200 metre ve denizden içeriye derinliği 5000 metredir. Bu yangının ankasdın Hristiyanlar ve bilhassa Ermeniler tarafından ika edildiğine ber vech-i ati vesaik delâlet etmekte olup, vesaikin cümlesi merbuten takdim kılınmıştır.

1. Yangın vukubulduğu zaman Mevki Komutanı olan 8 nci Fırka Komutanının raporu,

2. İzmir Sigorta şirketlerinin ve İtfaiye Komuitanı Mösyö Preskoviç’in raporları,

3. Kolordu İstihkâm Komutanının raporu,

4. Punta’da Alyonti bulvarında 3 No. lu hanede Amerika Kers kumpanyası simsarı Nemseli Mösyö Maks Rozembleh’in hattı desti ile muharrer ve meşhudata müstenit Fransızca raporu,

5. İtalyan tebaasından İzmde’de İkinci Kordon’da 34 No.da tütün tüccarı Mösyö Billişaber ile Fransız tebaasından aynı mahalde sakin Mösyö Pasil Rerku’nun müşahadelerine müstenit müşterek Fransızca raporu.

6. Fransız tebaasından Esen Oröpeen ticaret şirketi, Kredi Fonsiye Aljeryon bankasının ticaret şubesinden Mösyö Zame M. Milyaki’nin Fransızca raporu.

Bunlardan maada yangının Hristiyanlar tarafından yapıldığına ber vech-i ati hususat da delâlet etmektedir :

1. 1 nci Ordu İstihbarat dosyalarında mevcut bulunacağı vechile Yunan Başkomutanı sabıkı Papulas, Ayafotini kilisesinde mühim bir içtimada verdiği nutukta “Anadolu’yu terk etmek mecburiyetinde kalırlarsa her tarafı yakıp enkaz ve kül halinde bırakacaklarını’’ alenen söylemişti. Bu mesele gazete sütunlarında dahi mevzu-u bahsolunmuştu. Nitekim Yunan Ordusunun Afyonkarahisar’dan İzmir’e kadar tahliye ettiği şehir, kasaba ve köyleri mütemadiyen yakarak ricat etmesi de vaktiyle tasavvur ve tamim edilmiş mürettep bir plân dahilinde hareket ettiğini ve pek tabiî olarak bu plânda İzmir’in ihrakı da mevcut olacağını anlatmaktadır.

2. Yangın çıkan mahallin itfasına uğraşırken, diğer mahallerden de yangınlar çıkmıştır. Ezcümle 13/14 Eylül 338 gecesi Yemişçiler civarında Atina Bankası deposundan zuhur eden yangın hakkında 8 nci Fırka 135 nci Alay 3 ncü Tâbur Komutanı “evvelâ üç el silâh atıldığını ve bir bomba patladığını, silâh ve bomba sesine doğru koştukları vakit beş altı atlının süratle kaçtıklarını gördüğünü’’ ifade etmiştir. Bilhassa kereste dolu olarak bulunan bu deponun intihabı da yangının hainler tarafından kasden ika edildiğini gösterir.

3. Birbirini müteakip çıkan yangın yerlerinin her birerlerinin kumpanya su mahallelerini tıkayacak surette intihap edilmesi de evvelce musammen bir plâna tevfikan icra edildiğine delâlet eder.

4. Düşmanın yalnız bu ricatinde değil, geçen sene Sakarya’dan ricatinde de böyle yangın yapması, bunun yeniden değil eskiden beri bıraktıkları yerleri yakmaya azmetmiş olduğuna delildir.

5. Kolordunun takip harekâtında tesadüf ettiği yanmış köy ve kasabalarının ahalisi de yekzeban olarak yangının Yunan kıtaatı ile birlikte hep Hristiyanlar tarafından yapıldığını ve evlerini söndürmeye çalışanları kurşunla itlâf ve ateşe atmak suretiyle ihrak ettiklerini ve yangın ika edilirken köy ve kasâbaların etrafında Yunan askerlerinin kordon teşkil ederek harice çıkmak isteyenleri öldürdüklerini söylemişlerdir.

1 nci Kolordu Komutanı

Mirliva

İzzeddin Utku Öziz (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing the original text ; however, as already explained to you, per MOS:FOREIGNQUOTE you need to include the original text in the actual article. This would of course create proportional issues; hence why it is advised to either trim it and keep only the essential information, or replace it with a summary of the text. Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:21, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

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Genetics section
Hey, hope you're well. When you have some time, can you update the genetics section of Greeks based on the newer studies by Lazarides, Skourtanioti et al? It also needs a coherent table for Y-DNA/mtDNA frequencies.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I am doing well ; hope you are as well. I replied under the thread you created in Talk:Greeks. Demetrios1993 (talk) 05:36, 2 February 2023 (UTC)