User talk:Demiurge1000/Archive 12

A barnstar for you!

 * Thanks! :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

A. Chenevix-Trench
If you can send me a scan of the newspaper cutting of the L. Kennedy book review which I infer you possess, it is just possible that I might be able to identify the source from the typefaces and layout, etc. -- Alarics (talk) 08:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The source has now been identified, but if you want to send me your email address (or reply to the email I sent you through Wikipedia), I can send you the review anyway, plus a few related articles that may be of interest. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Showing a Quote by Richard Carrier in the "Reception" Section of the Doherty Article
Dear Demiurge:

I get your points, and I certainly endeavor to stick to facts, preserve an objective tone, and respect the tendency to a neutral point of view.

I have already written four full-fledged Wikipedia articles, all of them practically brand-new, on untouched or undeveloped subjects by the Wikipedia cohort of editors. I accept your remarks, offered in good faith.

However, I must respectfully claim that the following comment by Richard Carrier:

"I know Ehrman read Doherty’s monstrous second book but not his original Jesus Puzzle, and yet the latter is a far superior argument for his conclusion, by the standards Ehrman would expect, whereas the second is 90% speculative digression (hundreds and hundreds of pages worth) which is exactly the kind of thing that chaps the hide of professional scholars."

does belong to the section Reception. Alternatively this quote could be reduced to a shorter form, since Carrier's evaluation of the Jesus Puzzle has already been mentioned at the beginning of the section:

"I know Ehrman read Doherty’s monstrous second book but not his original Jesus Puzzle, and... the second is 90% speculative digression (hundreds and hundreds of pages worth) which is exactly the kind of thing that chaps the hide of professional scholars."

or even (probably the best excerpt, as being the shortest):

'''Doherty’s monstrous second book... is 90% speculative digression (hundreds and hundreds of pages worth) which is exactly the kind of thing that chaps the hide of professional scholars.'''

Those are the points to consider:


 * 1. Carrier is an authentic Ph.D. in ancient history from Columbia University (Manhattan), which Doherty is not (with only an unverified B.A., probably an online degree from a degree mill)
 * 2. He's already written many books, contributed chapters to many other books, all of them published by respected publishers (Prometheus is, in the States, the most prestigious publisher for skeptical books about religion and Christianity), a feat that Doherty has never been able to achieve.
 * 3. He's written a lot of articles, published in creditable reviews
 * 4. He has a Wikipedia article Richard Carrier, much longer and detailed than Doherty's, for example
 * 5. He is not only notable in the States, but respected and invited to talks by many universities.
 * 6. His articles are well known, and often quoted in the scholarly literature by other Ph.D.s, (whereas no article written by Doherty is ever quoted by anybody, for the reason that they are not read. The second book, Neither God nor Man is an effort to bring this collection of those unread articles to the public.)
 * 7. He is the only person who has published a full review of Doherty's first book, The Jesus Puzzle, in fact mentioned in the Doherty article (Note 12, of Feb. 2002). No other scholar worldwide has published another review of that book.
 * 8. Paul Ellingworth, of Aberdeen, a famous expert Biblical translator from the Greek, who's written one of the top commentaries on The Epistle to the Hebrews (and whose scholarship is used by Doherty in his chapter on Hebrews in Neither God nor Man), has declared that he has verified that only one academic library in the whole of the UK has a copy of The Jesus Puzzle and none of the second book, Neither God nor Man.
 * 9. Carrier is already mentioned in the section "Reception" about the first book, The Jesus Puzzle:
 * "Among authors sympathetic to the view that Jesus never existed, Doherty's work has received mixed reactions. The Jesus Puzzle has received favorable reviews from skeptics Robert M. Price and Richard Carrier."

And indicate which formulation of the quote best satisfies you. Meanwhile I'll repost the (shortest) #3 formulation.
 * 10. Carrier's quotation about the recent book, Neither God nor Man is, in Wikipedia's perspective, objective and factual, and not related to any editor's POV. It does belong to the Section "Reception".
 * 11. I am willing to bring the consideration of the eligibility of Carrier's quote to the most experienced court of Wikipedia (a new experience for me) . But I can only hope you'll agree with me.

Regards from a good-faith editor to another one. --ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 11:45, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Keith Johnson (author)
I have written an article, whilst logged in as 'dvdwllm', and in the Sandpit title 'Keith Johnson (author) but I am not clear how to upload it into Wikipedia. I have saved it, and been through the upload wizard but still do not find it in Wikipedia. Dvdwllm (talk) 19:56, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi! Your draft article is at User:Dvdwllm/sandbox. And very interesting it is too! If you add to the top of it, it will be reviewed to check whether it is currently suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. (This usually takes between one and three weeks.) However, in order to be accepted, it will need references that demonstrate that the subject of the article has received significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources (click that link for more information about that). The subject's LinkedIn page, the website for his software, and a listing of his publications, are not independent sources. A good example of a reference to use, would be a newspaper article about him. Further, the references to these independent reliable sources about him should ideally be inline citations - please read WP:REFB for information on how to do that. And ideally, statements like "It was the first to cover complete concepts in single- or double-page spreads" should all be supported by such an inline citation as well. So there is lots to do. Good luck! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Anthony Chenevix-Trench
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

kidnapped
Hi, it is not my desire to increase any drama regarding the user who expressed his fear that he or his family might be kidnapped by foreigners. If you go back to the original thread there's concern expressed that the OP seems to be claiming a memory from his youth of such kidnappings before they were known to the general public and before they even happened. The user has an odd sophistication with his first and very frequent contributions being well formatted posts to talk spaces yet showing an oddly slow learning curve when people explain why certain behaviors are problematic. For instance, here it was explained he shouldn't mark In The News nominations updated unless they were, according to policy, to which he replied understood, then here, 20 minutes later, here violates the exact same policy. I appreciate your wish to help new users. I have found dialog with this user unproductive. μηδείς (talk) 18:15, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

AN Notice
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Crazynast 07:38, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Speculation much?
Did you have any evidence for the speculation you posted, or is it just empty rhetoric? I'd hate to think you were just making it up. Kevin (talk) 00:27, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Demiurge contacted me about this privately. I can tell you that there is evidence for every statement they made, and the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee is in posession of this evidence. gwickwire  talk editing 02:14, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * But I very much doubt he has any evidence at all that Kevin is supplying the asshole with any information . That kind of casual slander is really unacceptable. If either one of you make that accusation again on-wiki, you'll be blocked from editing. If you have any evidence Kevin is involved in that, send it to ArbCom. If not, don't say it again. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarify: Actually, even if you do have such evidence, don't say it on-wiki. But I doubt you do. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:33, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but since this involves very private information, this should be left to ArbCom on whether a block is warranted. Demiurge made a statement that may or may not have had evidence. I'm no longer going to comment on this publicly, as it's leading to (surprise surprise) more harassment and outing on that site. I can assure you that both Demiurge and me are aware that any private evidence must go to the functionaries, and that we will follow that with all evidence. gwickwire  talk editing 02:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * As long as the information stays in an email to ArbCom, I won't block anyone. But if the accusation is made on-wiki again, I will. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Someone seems to be reading something into my comments that isn't (wasn't?) there. However, since my comments were aimed solely at people who are still well able to read them, there's no need for me to be arguing about that one way or the other. Whoever censored what I posted in the arbcom case should, however, have made an indication that something was removed, rather than leaving something above my signature which is not what I wrote. I've fixed that. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Just for the record, and to correct any misleading impressions left, what I posted specifically did not say that "Kevin is supplying" anyone with information. Floquenbeam, your implication of this above is poorly worded. Your decision to name gwickwire here is also rather poor judgement - I'll leave it to him as to whether he'd prefer to blank this entire thread then ask for it to be oversighted (I do mean oversight not revdel). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been told by an OSer that this would have to be a full team decision, and I have absolutely -100% confidence in the OS team (because it includes arbitrators), so I'll not bother. gwickwire  talk editing 05:55, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Talking of "casual slander"
Why do you keep saying "boxcutter", and what are you trying to imply by doing so?

No, honestly, I really have no idea. I suspect I may not be the only one, either. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   13:32, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * You don't? That's rather surprising, Hex. However, a productive and valued editor has asked me nicely to find some other phrase to refer to these people and their unpleasant behaviour, so you won't need to be puzzled by it any more. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You could also enlighten me why you find that surprising. There seems to more than one assumption on your part at play here. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   18:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Really? What are these assumptions, in your view? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:07, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I see you've explained the boxcutter thing below.
 * Assumption 1: All people on Wikipediocracy are in full agreement with the craziest things said by the craziest posters there.
 * Assumption 2: All people on Wikipediocracy are fully aware of everything posted there, ever, so making context-free references to things there in this way makes perfect sense to everybody reading.
 * That's certainly how it looks from your comments. Neither of those are true. Hope this helps. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   18:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Buddy, I'm through talking to you. What I said above is how your comments came across. If you can't grasp that, it's not my problem. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   18:32, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * All right. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the things that may not have occurred to you, Hex, is that when members of that site are made aware of "the craziest things said by the craziest posters there", they have the opportunity to condemn such things. When the targets of those craziest posters see that opportunity missed or spurned, it reminds us of "qui tacet consentire" - silence gives consent. That's the missing Assumption 3 that may be in many peoples' minds. --RexxS (talk) 20:27, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks RexxS. I really should leave things like this to people like you who have the time and patience to explain properly, rather than charging in with artwork and implications as I so often do :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:33, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, speaking as one of the targets, it's an issue I'm already very familiar with. Regards --RexxS (talk) 03:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * One of the things that obviously didn't occur to you RexxS is that this was obviously an offhand comment which no one in their right mind, or with any common sense would have taken seriously. Like they say on TV, you shouldn't take everything you read on internet literally. And another thing which obviously didn't occur to you RexxS is that the comment was taken down pretty promptly by a moderator of the site. Which would fall under "condemn the craziest things said by the craziest posters there" category. You can show off and put in fancy Latin in your post (done it myself before) but that doesn't change the fact that you simply don't have an idea of what it is you're talking about. So... what you have here is the fact that at one point one commentator, in order to blow off some steam made a silly off hand remark. That remark was removed quickly. Yet Deimurge has been referring to that taken-down-obviously-not-serious remark over and over and over again and he's been using it to smear and insult editors who are or where completely unrelated to that remark. So he eventually he got blocked for it. Personally I would've made it a block for "blatant dishonesty" rather than "personal attacks" but whatevers. Volunteer Marek 03:33, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * So there was only one single comment about wanting to fly to London and use a boxcutter to "slit the throats" of Wikimedia UK members, right? Which was eventually removed from the publicly viewable area of the website... although not before there had been extensive discussion about it? And the "Global Moderator" (nice title, I feel so respectful already) involved kept his "Global Moderator" status, right? So he can still collect IP addresses from people who register there, or not?


 * And after the one single comment about that, there was another single comment about hunting down some kid who had dared to criticise Wikipediocracy at Wikipedia's Village Pump or WP:AN or wherever; that if he kept his mouth shut from now on then he wouldn't need to be "dealt with"?


 * Oh, and that comment was also eventually removed from the publicly viewable area (took quite a long time, mind you - even longer than the previous one), so instead one of your friendly "forum" members decided to post some material about how they wondered if the kid was sometimes on Wikipedia from school, and if they might get in trouble if someone were to mention that to the school, because of course they know which school it is...


 * Not to mention the several sockpuppets created over the last few days to continue the harrassment of the child editor concerned. Who is responsible for this, Marek? You're not, of course. Wikipediocracy isn't, of course. I'm not allowed to say that Wikipediocracy members are responsible, because I'd be blocked for suggesting anything so outrageous. Well now. Who? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Sigh. Like I said, the proper rationale for your block should've been "blatant dishonesty in regards to other users" rather than "personal attacks", but I guess these are close enough. And if you're implying in any way - I can't tell if you are or not because your wording is sleazy insinuations at just the right amount, so that the true meaning is hard to divulge - that I'm responsible for "continued harrassment of a child editor " then your ass needs to be blocked not just for a month but indefinitely. You really need to stop digging your hole. Volunteer Marek 03:54, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, with all due respect it's easy for you to pontificate on the subject, Marek. When you get to be the target of crazies making death threats, you will be entitled to judge whether I have any idea or not. In the meantime, do you condemn that threat or not? Put up or shut up.
 * You may be surprised that I don't see all of the regulars at WO as a homogeneous group - there are many whose integrity and common sense I respect, and others who are clearly disturbed, as well as a spectrum in between. I also agree with the advice 28bytes gave to Demiurge and Gwickwire - giving the oxygen of publicity to the loonies only encourages them, so best not to mention them if possible. By the way, if you think having a knowledge of Latin (or any other subject for that matter) is "showing off", you're clearly unfit to be involved in writing an encyclopedia. Now get back under your bridge. --RexxS (talk) 04:00, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * RexxS, I've actually been a target of a lot crazies, some of them probably "Wikipedians in good standing", at least as of a few days ago. Hell, I've just had to remove some racist garbage from my talk page a few hours ago. And I already said that the remark was wrong. So sure, I "condemn" it, in the sense that I think it was a stupid thing to say. But, unless you really want to milk an unfortunate statement for the purposes of some Wikipedia BATTLEGROUND you're interested in, it was very clearly just an offhand expression of frustration which got promptly redacted. As crazy as it may sound, you (why are you concerned here anyway?) were not subject to a "death threat".
 * That's me putting up right there. Now will you put up and shut the fuck up?
 * I've also seen a lot of people on Wikipedia take some mistake that someone once made and then try to milk it over and over and over again, to get someone banned, to force their POV on an article, to climb some kind of idiotic social ladder. Usually this is done with some on-Wiki mistake. Demiurge has been doing it with someone's off-Wiki mistake. Either way this is a WP:STANDARD BATTLEGROUND TACTIC (someone should compile a list of these). It's nonsense, it's dishonest, it's a form of a personal attack (lying about people usually is, at least outside of Wikipedia, no matter how politely you phrase it)
 * And oh yeah, like I said, I've been harassed plenty here. On wiki and in my real life. I don't make drama out of it (so you haven't heard about it). But I've also seen a lot of people try to make themselves out to be some kind of a "tragic victim" or "martyr" because someone somewhere said something mean about them. That's not harassment. That's just somebody not liking you out there on the internet. Get over it. And that's sort of the messed up part about all this whining that you and Demiurge are engaging in. It cheapens the real harassment that actually occurs. So screw off. Volunteer Marek 04:27, 10 March 2013 (UTC)




 * Were the threats to contact the kid's school also "just somebody not liking you out there on the internet"? Was the implication that if he didn't say anything more against Wikipediocracy then he would escape further attacks, acceptable? Just how it normally works there?


 * Have you no sense of decency? If I asked you to Google search the phrase "have you no sense of decency", would you really not see anything there that you could understand? Does none of it make any sense to you? Have you been so wrapped up in all these nationalist arguments for so long that it is just a win/lose, them/us thing to you? Some of us are not like that. Some of us are - or were - trying to build an encyclopedia. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:05, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Screw this, I've wasted enough of my time trying to be reasonable with you. Obsess and rant on. Volunteer Marek 05:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Typical and not at all unexpected. Amazing, though, that you came here to talk about "dishonesty", and then spouted the above. My question about decency is answered. My question about what you thought of the threats to contact the child's school, remains unanswered. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request
Please could someone strike my comment at WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests, as it doesn't seem fair to the copyedit requester to have to wait unnecessarily and unexpectedly. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I just removed it, as no one had replied, but I will happily restore with the strikeout if that's your preference. NE Ent 19:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Removal is fine. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Please could you also mention at ANI that I've posted an explanation (in this section above) of why I (and another editor) initially perceived 28bytes' comments as a personal attack. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * We can copy whatever comments you wish to the ANI thread, but you have to be clear what you wish copied.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:28, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, I will write something brief (don't want to be asking for whole walls o' text to be splattered all over ANI, especially since I doubt you'd agree to copy the pretty pictures along with them). It'll be a bit later as I need to sort out some other things at the moment. --Demiurge1000 (talk)


 * OK, please post the following:
 * I'd like to make anyone who's not seen it aware that I've posted an explanation in this section of why I (and another editor) initially perceived 28bytes' comments as a personal attack.
 * You should be able to copy it directly from the talkpage (not the editing page) and the link (and emphasis) will work. Thanks! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thanks! Being blocked or not blocked can really only be a secondary consideration when there's behaviour of this nature going on. People need to realise that some issues need dealing with, not swept under the carpet by trying to silence anyone that comments on them.


 * (Just before anyone jumps in with silliness about WP:BATTLEGROUND, gwickwire is actually referring to a speech made by Churchill in which he mentions a French perspective on the English.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:25, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Be careful with that, this place has a habit of putting restrictions on people that don't agree with the masses, not commenting on your block cause I don't really understand what's going on but I've been personally sanctioned before for "advocating on an editors behalf" by Arbcom, good luck at any rate. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Another edit request
Please post this in the section for my comments at ANI that Bbb23 already started. You should be able to copy it directly from here, not from the editing page. Thanks in advance for any help fixing resultant messes in the formatting!


 * I've avoided comment here up to now, as my reply on my own talk page gives a pretty good idea of what happened with this incident. However, there's a few points that have been made that do need addressing. I'll keep it brief Apologies for wall of text!


 * Above, Jayen466 defends the comment about "slitting some throats" of Wikimedia UK members by saying it was merely "a figure of speech". If it's merely a figure of speech, why's it supposedly so appalling for me to mention it? Some editors here are, rightly, "horrified" by it, and that's because it's an awful lot more than a "figure of speech". Jayen466 goes on to compare it to the Twitter joke trial. Now, that's an incident in which a man was convicted of a criminal offence after being arrested by anti-terror police, and his conviction was upheld by two appeal courts and only finally quashed by the third appeal court after a massive public campaign supported by more-than-notable figures. Did various authorities over-react to this joke bomb threat? Yes they did, but the airport staff who originally reported it to police did so because they are told, just like WMF are told by police forces in many countries, that even an apparently non-credible threat should be taken seriously. Likewise, here on Wikipedia, if someone makes a legal threat that's obviously aimed to have a chilling effect, that's blockworthy even if a sensible adult would be confident the threatener had no chance in hell of mounting a successful legal case (or potentially, even intending to try). Why? Because as well as sensible adults, Wikipedia editors include a great many young, naive, or just completely uninformed editors who do actually have the right to edit without worrying themselves about some supposed lawsuit from some angry guy with a COI.


 * Moving further down this page, The Devil's Advocate says "Demiurge openly speculated at RFAR without a shred of evidence or any reasonable basis that Kevin was using his administrator privileges to funnel private information about a minor to someone else in order to facilitate malicious harassment of said minor". No, actually I did not say that. Some people may have thought I meant that; some people may indeed believe that, or have been led to believe it when they were prompted to consider the facts themselves. But I am not those people. I did not accuse, and am not accusing, Kevin of having done that. What I actually said can still be read in the history of the page concerned.


 * Now, Diannaa has said on this page that it's a problem that I'm "pre-judging people based on their participation on that website". That's a very interesting point, but no, no I'm not. I don't make any judgement about Floquenbeam based on their registering an account there in order to be able to complain about the outing of certain Wikipedia editors, nor do I make any judgement about the arbitrator who said he reads the site to give insights into whether disputants on Wikipedia are being genuine or not (he also comments there thoughtfully with his own opinions from time to time, and there's nothing wrong with that either).


 * What I do make a judgement about, and I expect many other people do also, is when editors who are banned or blocked on Wikipedia use Wikipediocracy to "out", harass, or attack in whatever other way their opponents, in a manner that would be totally unacceptable here, and then an editor like (for example) The Devil's Advocate proceeds to engage onwiki, in Fluffernutter's words, "writing comments laying a trail of how someone else could find personal information on a user makes it look a lot like you're gaming the wording of the policy to accomplish the same aim as Cla68 was trying to do ... Posting continual details about another person on Wikipedia, for no other reason than because you appear to be fascinated by them and by someone else's right to use them against that person, is not behavior we expect of an editor in good standing".


 * So yes, we have a spectrum of users on Wikipediocracy; some of them make comments like the throat-slitting one, some of them collate private information about minors who edit Wikipedia and offer to give it out to other Wikipediocracy editors, some of them act in the manner Fluffernutter just described and then also turn up at the talk page of one of the people being harassed and oh-so-helpfully enquire as to whether they've had any other Wikipedia accounts. This while also engaging in the discussions on Wikipediocracy where all this harassment was being planned and discussed.


 * Let's look at one of those discussions a little bit deeper, because it shows just why I might think that's not reasonable behaviour. Earlier this evening, one of the "Global Moderators" on Wikipediocracy called "Cla68" (sounds familiar somehow) suggested that a forum member called "Lone Wolf" should "Email the kid and ask him for his parents' contact info and tell him why you want to know it", and then if the child refuses to hand over his parents' details, try and use that as a way to get him blocked (or, as he nicely newspeaked it, "follow Wikipedia's administrative guidance on dealing with minor contributors"). Doesn't sound very wise, does it? To me it sounds a bit like "better hand your details over to this anonymous stranger, kid, you don't wanna get blocked, do you?" And a Wikipediocracy user called The Devil's Advocate immediately joins the discussion talking about whether this would be effective or not. The individual who has been doing the "research" on the kid concerned helpfully pipes up "I have the snail mail address, email and phone contacts", and offers to supply them.


 * Now, maybe I should be so much more assuming of good faith, but when a person who acts as Fluffernutter has described above, and (apparently) participates in that manner in discussions of the nature I've just described on Wikipediocracy, is also the same person that turns up to the target's talkpage making these "polite" enquiries as to their past history, I think to myself that that is not appropriate. Not appropriate at all, nonono.


 * Apparently, my rather intemperate responses discouraged that person from carrying on with those "enquiries". Well, given the situation described, I don't think anyone could argue that's a bad thing.


 * BWilkins considers that "Reality appears to be that membership on the one is nearly incompatible with editing on Wikipedia", and Herostratus takes the view that "consorting with persons sworn to damage and destroy the Wikipedia is not consistent with being a Wikipedia editor", but I don't see anyone clamouring for either of them to be blocked for a month. Maybe they just have that little bit more self-restraint than me.


 * Screenshots of the Wikipediocracy comments I refer to, and any additional diffs that are needed, available to any oversighter on request.

--Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:38, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Done. -- Cheers, Ri l ey    02:57, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

March 2013
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 month for making personal attacks. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding below this notice the text, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.

Demiurge1000, I am extremely disappointed in your recent behavior over the past couple of days. Not too long ago you were [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Fram&page=User%3ADemiurge1000 blocked] for falsely and repeatedly accusing an editor of creating malicious sockpuppets. When Dennis Brown [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Dennis+Brown&page=User%3ADemiurge1000 unblocked] you, it was with the understanding that you would no longer make "comments that can't be properly substantiated."

Yet just three days ago, you falsely accused another editor, without any evidence, of contributing to the outing of a minor editor – on an arbitration page, no less. Your comment was rightly redacted by a clerk, and you were given [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Demiurge1000&diff=542496625&oldid=542493790&unhide=1 a very clear warning] by Floquenbeam that any more false or unsubstantial accusations would earn you a block. Yet, you followed up that warning by [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gwickwire&diff=542966995&oldid=542950368 falsely accusing me] of making personal attacks, which you then followed by [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A28bytes&diff=542967838&oldid=542725759 trolling my talk page.]

This is completely unacceptable. Since you apparently have no interest in adhering to your unblock agreement not to make false and unsubstantiated comments about your fellow editors, I am restoring and extending your block. Since I am one of the (many) people you've made false and unsubstantiated comments about, I am bringing this block to AN/I for review.

Any admin is welcome to unblock once you make a convincing commitment not to make any more false and unsubstantiated accusations about your fellow editors. You will need to make it clear to them that this time – unlike last time – you intend to keep your word. 28bytes (talk) 15:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * One of the many things I've been accused of on the external website concerned is that I supposedly approached the editor involved (Gwickwire) and prompted him, behind the scenes, to get involved in the Cla68 dispute and to post things, some of them unwise things, aligned with my viewpoint on that dispute. (The implication was pretty much that I was writing the material and he was posting it.) I find this absolutely outrageous, for a number of reasons, one of which I will not mention here for privacy reasons, although you may be aware of it. Another of the reasons is that it's obviously and manifestly completely untrue, as when Gwickwire began posting comments (quite a lot of comments) about the Cla68 situation, he and I were not on speaking terms (and in fact I had recently asked at WP:ANEW for him to be blocked).


 * Immediately after reading these very unpleasant accusations, I came to Gwickwire's talk page to find you making what appeared to me to be an almost identical accusation, that I was "egging on" Gwickwire to post things that he would not otherwise post. That is why I regarded your comment as a personal attack, and indeed Gwickwire took the same view of it. Do you understand why, in that set of circumstances, our first reaction was to view it that way?


 * On a minor technical note, I'm not at all convinced that when one "resets" a 24 hour block that would have expired nearly four months ago, a proportionate extension of it can sensibly be said to reach the region of one month. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Explanation of a phrase I've now agreed not to use
There seems (understandably) to be some surprise at AN/I about my use of the term "boxcutter people" to describe the worst of the participants on the external website (those participants are banned on English Wikipedia). I did not use it to refer to the 9/11 hijackers, but to refer to those participants.

The reason - and this has already been posted on-wiki by a member of the website concerned, so no more claims of "false accusations" please - is that one of the administrators of the site said he would like to deal with the members of Wikimedia UK by flying to London and slitting some throats with a boxcutter. (Yes, this is the sort of website we're talking about, and this is why I over-reacted when I perceived 28bytes as making comments which appeared to echo ones that had just been made about me by such people on that website.)

Anyway it has been pointed out that the use of the term can be upsetting regardless of its intended meaning or context, so I had already agreed to cease using it before 28bytes got here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I am horrified. Please email me this website url. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:33, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Will do. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you also email me a copy of where this was said? It would definitely be useful for my records. Truthfully, a threat like that should be taken to the police or at least directly reported to the WMF. Silver  seren C 04:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Outing of minors and harrassment of child editors
I've been told that I'll be blocked (which now means, "even more blocked than currently") if I repeat my comments about the outing of minors that members of the website discussed above have been engaging in. This also means that I'm not able to explain, defend, or expand upon the comments that I made.

What does bear mentioning here and now, though, is that this harrassment is still ongoing, with at least two sockpuppet accounts created for that purpose within the last 24 hours. The bland dismissal of these concerns, and failure to deal robustly with what is effectively real-world harrassment of child editors, raises grave concerns about the inadequacy of Wikipedia's child protection policy and approach. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Next time, please...
Heya. In the future, if things are getting loopy over at Wikipediocracy and you are aware that a minor is being inappropriately fucked with, could you please email me (or Alison, or using the "report post" button if you have an account there) rather than making the situation worse by bringing it up on the drama boards?

Some things should be dealt with quietly, before they get out of hand. I hope you agree. -- SB_Johnny &#124; talk✌ 23:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Well thanks for the thought, but you're stretching my AGF to the max here. You (the Wikipediocracy management) allow your forum to be used for encouraging collection of private info on Wikipedia editors, and you allow people to use it as a place to swap such info, and to brag about how their "research" is coming along. You even allow use of its official blog as a platform for "outing" Wikipedia editors using the info gained through these discussions.


 * And this goes on constantly, and any sensible person would be well aware sooner or later it's going to be a child that these people are harassing, and then you act all surprised? Really?


 * Even now, the harassment of this minor on your forum has been going on for what, a week, and you still haven't dealt with it effectively; as recently as this evening the main perpetrator - whom you've known about for some time now - wrote on your forum "I have the snail mail address, email and phone contacts" and offered to supply them. Your reaction to that was "please cut it out". A bit inadequate, wouldn't you say?


 * Meanwhile another of your "Global Moderators" (how reassuring that still sounds) on Wikipediocracy called "Cla68" (sounds familiar somehow) tonight suggested that a forum member called "Lone Wolf" should "Email the kid and ask him for his parents' contact info and tell him why you want to know it", and then if the child refuses to hand over his parents' details, try and use that as a way to get him blocked (or, as he nicely newspeaked it, "follow Wikipedia's administrative guidance on dealing with minor contributors"). Such a great situation, isn't it - better hand your details over to this anonymous stranger, kid, you don't wanna get blocked, do you?


 * Now, does that sound like the actions of a person who I would feel comfortable contacting by pressing some "report post" button, and giving them private info about a minor? Would I have confidence in doing so? Really?


 * Does that sound like a situation that you have under control?


 * Now, if what you've actually come here to tell me is that the people who control Wikipediocracy (whoever that may be) have come to a realisation that things have not been appropriately managed, that the people who've engaged in this sort of thing who hold moderator positions on Wikipediocracy should be moved to positions more fitting with their behaviour, and that it should be ensured that the person who enjoys using your forum to harass minors should be prevented from doing that any more... then I, for one, would welcome that. I would feel able to work with people prepared to take those reasonable steps, and I could see how we wouldn't find ourselves in this situation again.


 * But I'm not sure if that's what you've come here to tell me. I fear it isn't.


 * Where is the Wikipediocracy reform campaign?


 * Note for anyone concerned about "false allegations" and the like - I have the screenshot of the Wikipediocracy "Cla68" account saying that, and of the other quote, and am happy to provide them to any oversighter on request. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:48, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I see. My request (or recommendation, or whatev) remains the same, for you and your page stalkers alike :-). -- SB_Johnny &#124; talk✌ 14:11, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * That's fine. This thread will remain here for their, my and your edification for the next 39 days starting... now! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:05, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Malleus Fatuorum and George Pondorevo
Well now, who'd a thunk it? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Article Feedback deployment
Hey Demiurge1000; I'm dropping you this note because you've used the article feedback tool in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Saturday afternoon should be fine. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:43, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Block extended
Really? I've modified your block to indefinite. When you understand WP:CLUE, let us know and we will be happy to welcome you back. — Ched : ?  08:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Per remove, "any other notice regarding an active sanction" is an exception to users may remove stuff from their talk page. NE Ent 19:21, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh I do apologise, I hadn't realised it was a "notice". I mistook it for something else. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome, it isn't exactly the most formal statement, but we're not a bureaucracy, right? Anyway, it's not active now, so feel free to revert away. NE Ent 20:21, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm actually rather busy admiring the wording of it, right now. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

changed
per discussion on my talk page I have restored the original expiration date of your block. I continue to believe that your efforts are disruptive and question your intentions in regards to what is best for this project. It is not my remit or within my abilities however to circumvent the communities wishes. — Ched : ?  20:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've taken over the responsibility for the block from Ched. Before it was extended to indefinite, it was scheduled to end at 15:39, 16 March 2013. That is the time your block would have ended with the reduction from one month to one week by 28bytes. AniMate 20:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey Ched, welcome back!


 * And welcome to you also, AniMate. There's still some of the refreshments left further up the page, feel free to take some as they may not last long at this rate. I'll add some more soon. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Demiurge, I will assume that you mean well. I ask you this: you obviously have a circle of people who follow what you do; please take that into consideration with your efforts here. — Ched :  ?  20:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Amazing what a difference seventeen minutes with some fine cheeses and a little port can do for AGF, isn't it?


 * And I do very much take it into consideration, Ched. I have all sorts of concerns, but that's not for here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If you feel there is an error in my block, please let me know. AniMate 20:46, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Block log says it's accurate. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:51, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Making silly faces at IP addresses
An IP editor has now posted allegations that I'm a collaborator with a "criminal hacker", that I've "probably never posted to Wikipedia Review", and that I'm bad at harassing people. (Well, I thought it was ambiguous anyway.) Also some metaphor about dogs.

Please would someone frown at the IP editor concerned for a moment, as I myself can't currently manage the correct serious expression to do so. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:36, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure it was Mbz1. But i'll leave it at that. Silver  seren C 14:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm currently on a strict diet of don't-ever-speculate-about-anything-even-the-grass-being-green, so I couldn't possibly say what I think about that theory. Happily, Mark Arsten has provided the troubled IP address with some kind and thoughtful advice on his talk page, and I am grateful to Mark on behalf of both of us, just in case the IP doesn't quite feel up to that sort of thing yet. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:25, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The young lady in the picture may look up at me with those big round eyes and make funny faces in my direction as much as she would like :-) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Unblock request
Despite my plans to do so, I will not be submitting an unblock request this evening. I have been very busy this week, partly dealing with concerns from BLP victims. Those of you with an imagination can imagine that on-wiki silliness does not take priority over that (whether you consider the admins who acted here to be involved or not - I personally don't care, they both behaved about the same, and certainly didn't cover themselves with glory.) I also spent a little time delivering a few responses which have been copied to the relevant places. I'm under no obligation to provide more than that.

Anyone still fascinated by what I might have written, can examine these diffs; and draw your own conclusions from that limited subset. There is of course much, much more, but that's not for here.

All that aside, the hour is late, smoke rises over Siberia, and article writers come here seeking my copyediting. For that is why they are here, is it not? To build an encyclopedia. So I ask that someone undo this edit. And thus, those of us who are interested in improving the encyclopedia, can get back to doing so... in a few hours. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:13, 16 March 2013 (UTC)


 * (ain't nobody got time for 'dat!) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

...Welcome, ummm, back? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:43, 17 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks... not really been away, as such :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No kidding ... hence the "ummm" and italicized "back" LOL. Like the old saying goes: "how can we miss you if you won't go away" LMAO (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:15, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

reply - sort of
I was just trying to get caught up on some replies from my talk page, and noticed your post. Even though it was not addressing me, I did want to say that I very much appreciated the "I hold no grudges and it's all water under the bridge now as far as I'm concerned." comment - and I feel the same way. Best — Ched : ?  16:00, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Good, and just in time for the cookies! If more people think the same way, we could one day have a much calmer Wikipedia. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

T Shirts
We give out T shirts in a very arbitrary way. If you see someone who wants one and deserves one then tell me, John or Tyson and we'll see if there are any left in the right size Victuallers (talk) 20:15, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I will start canvassing look into this further! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Separation of Powers
Hi Demiurge, you're probably wondering of the change in the Separation of powers article. As you can see the references you edited were the ones that were in the top because I moved them in the Antiquity section in which I also edited. (Slurpy121 (talk) 23:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC))


 * It would help if you added references to reliable sources for claims that you've added to the article. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:28, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right. I made the mistake of just moving the sources as I thought they would prove the statement, but I will work into it. (Slurpy121 (talk) 23:31, 18 March 2013 (UTC))

You win one (1) internet!
This. :-) &mdash; Coren (talk) 17:44, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Imagine the bureaucracy involved, as thousands of child editors merrily submit their bus passes and library cards and suchlike to the WMF in order to prove their eligibility for their new user rights. And then the angst when, rather like some of the stranger overseas kid musical outfits, the privileges are revoked when each of them turns 18. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:17, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Question from Troutbum898
Hey there, what advice would you have in making sure my contributions follow BLP and NPOV? Troutbum898 (talk) 21:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * My first suggestion would be not adding text like "A former teacher and therapist raped a participant" sourced to a news item which actually says that the teacher "has not been charged with any criminal wrongdoing". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:35, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Citations?
I provided all citations I just do not think I did it properly fee free to fix my citations all links were provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amyyla (talk • contribs) 15:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC)


 * You linked to youtube and blogs, neither of which are reliable sources. Since the information was contentious (a bit rude too), it was removed as unsourced. gwickwire  talk editing 18:46, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Lammas Ecovillage
The DYK project (nominate) 08:04, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

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On BLP and help
Hello! I just read your responses at Teahouse/Questions and I'd like to say BRAVO for keeping it light! I also found your responses quite informative.

Further, I feel a calling to focus my bits of available time to improving and increasing my Wiki learning of BLP articles, which of course takes a fair amount of knowledge of the ins and outs of BLP article guidelines. As I am only still piecing together the pieces of knowledge around all that BLP article improving entails, but having garnered some idea at least, I'd thought I'd make contact with you and ask if I may contact you directly if I have questions? If yes, is the best way to post my questions on your Talk page, my own Talk page; and if no, then I would appreciate your recommendation such as seek out help as needed from the Teahouse or through the Adoption program. HiTrish (talk) 20:48, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for the positive feedback. Incidents like that are very difficult to deal with; it's almost always the case that someone who is (or believes themselves to be) the victim of a serious crime, is not the best person to add neutral information about the circumstances of that specific crime, but sometimes it's not easy to tell them so.


 * I'd be more than happy to answer any questions about BLP, BLP editing and the like. The best place is probably here on my talk page; I might not always get to them quickly (because of all the other craziness that goes on here), but I will get to them. I've also watchlisted your talk page, in case you run into any difficulties, but there's a greater possibility I will miss things posted there.


 * The best place to start, of course, is with WP:BLP itself, which is very detailed and clear - in particular it makes the point that for statements about living persons, we must go even further than WP:RS and WP:V already require. There's a little expansion and clarification of WP:BLP on my user page, under "A thought on articles that mention living persons".


 * WP:SYNTH is also worth keeping in mind, because some (though not most) BLP problems involve SYNTH; so for example if source X says "Politician Lucy was educated at Stubbins private school in the 1980s", and source Y says "Politican Lucy voted in favour of reducing subsidies to private schools in 1997", we cannot write on Wikipedia "Politician Lucy was educated at Stubbins private school in the 1980s, but voted in favour of reducing subsidies to private schools in 1997". Even that one word "but" has introduced SYNTH in a way that's unacceptable in a BLP.


 * And then you'll want to watchlist, read, and help at WP:BLPN. There's a lot to do!


 * We could also consider doing a formal adoption "course", but I'm not sure it would be beneficial - the adoption course I use has very little about BLP, and most of the general editing material it does cover are probably things you already know about. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:AN discussion
A discussion which relates to actions or comments made by you can be found at Administrators' noticeboard/Archive247. Fram (talk) 15:56, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

You have a new message!
 Pr at yya  (Hello!) 12:44, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Alex Galvin
Hi Demiurge1000, I have added more material. Could you consider withdrawing your nomination for deletion? I would be very grateful if you would withdraw it as I have spent a lot of time on this article and intend to improve it further. Perhaps, alternatively, you could just tag it at this stage?Rick570 (talk) 00:38, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Advice Polack
Hi. You seem to have taken an interest in Advice Polack, and I wonder if you'd mind participating in the discussion at Talk:Advice Polack. As you'll see there, one editor forcefully insists that the sources aren't reliable, but so far the discussion hasn't been very fruitful. I gave up the fight a few months ago, but perhaps you can help break the deadlock. EEng (talk) 18:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Please review Hugh
He has placed another unwarranted warning on my talk page while ignoring the fact that I have requested both further discussion and a Third opinion. What should be my next course of action? The article in question is Democratic Party of Cook County in case you forgot the context. -- Homeaccount (talk) 21:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * His second edit-warring report against you (today's) is erroneous, because consecutive edits by the same editor count as one edit as far as 3RR is concerned. I presume whoever reviews the report will tell him that. However, your request for third opinion got removed because it wasn't clear enough what the dispute was about and who was involved. So, I suggest you re-add it but with more clarity. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I resubmitted for a third opinion. Hopefully the most contentious issues can be resolved. -- Homeaccount (talk) 22:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/San Francisco Soccer Football League
"You shouldn't give medical advice on Wikipedia. Also, your current approach seems calculated to make it more likely that you will indeed be "sanctioned in some way". --Demiurge1000 (talk)"

Sanctioning from a bunch of bigots means nothing to me.

Since you decided to step in and harass me too I have to share new research finding with you as well: 90% of men are gay 100% of women are gay Rape and incest is an epidemic All races, cultures, nationalities, groups, and religions are secretly racist Most women are secretly sexist Drug and alcohol abuse is abundant Dyslexia affects 90% of the population and is commonly undiagnosed and treatable Mental illness is commonly undiagnosed and incurable Sociopaths need to be separated from normal society Humans have evolved from primates. There are the alpha males, the regular males and the females. Gay males have female minds. At one point in human embryonic development all people were once female. That is why males have nipples. Females have the ability to achieve a muscular orgasm just like a male, however most women do not know how. Women can have a muscular orgasm if they repeatedly squeeze the vaginal muscle used to urinate. Secret racism and secret sexism can be avoided by simply vocalizing the secret. Maxschweitzer (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for sharing these insights with me. I was already aware of the evolutionary connection between humans and other primates; the other matters I will have to consider further. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

My talk page
Thank you very much for stopping by my talk page. It is appreciated. I made a brief comment there as well.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  17:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Happy Easter!!!
So a print encyclopedia, a strawberry shortcake, and a sycamore walk into a bar - wait, have you heard this one? (talk) 22:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Democratic Party of Cook County
Looks like stupid POV fisticuffs owing to the President's Chicago connections. Calling a county unit of the Democratic Party of Illinois "a political party" in the lead is flat out wrong, for starters. I really try to avoid getting involved in edit warring over such things; usually there are POV warriors involved who don't have the first clue about the culture of WP or the best interests of the encyclopedia and in the long run their tendentious bullshit goes by the wayside. Good luck weeding out the numbskulls. —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 16:07, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Tim! Quite harsh, but possibly true, and certainly wise. You perhaps avoid this sort of thing just as much as I do. I will continue shepherding them down the dispute resolution path, mostly from a distance. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:48, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Clarification note on WP:BLPN
Thank you for adding that note. I didn't even realize how it sounded until I saw your comment. You saved me from what could have been a serious issue. Thank you again.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No problem. English is, sadly, an imprecise language! I'm not even sure if it would have been read the other way by anyone, but I read it that way as I started reading the sentence, then only corrected myself later. I do tend to read in a hurry, though, which has caught me out many times :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for The Land of Lost Content
Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

David Ogden Stiers
Hi, I would like you to reverse the deletion of my edit to this actor's page, as I added accurate information to the categories section, as evidenced by an Internet search of a multitude of reliable news sources: Stiers came out publicly in order to support equal treatment of LGBT people in 2009. Deleting those categories from his page can be seen as devaluing his decision to make such a move, and I think it would reflect badly on any encyclopedic entity.

If the only issue seems to merely be a missing citation, I would like to ask you for help in this. Here is a source that I would hope counts as reputable: ABC News: 'M*A*S*H' Star David Ogden Stiers Reveals He's Gay (May 6, 2009)

Thank you so much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.231.75 (talk) 17:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for asking about this. For the category to be added to the article, it would need to be mentioned, and referenced, in the body of the article itself - perhaps in a "personal life" section.


 * Stiers' biography currently does not have a "personal life" section, and my own view is that "he's gay" is not some notable abnormality that would merit a section all of its own to mention it, when we report nothing else about his personal life at all. After all, lots of people are gay.


 * Anyway, there has been a discussion about whether to include this material going on for several years now at Talk:David Ogden Stiers. The discussion has not reached a consensus that the material should be included, and the material cannot be included until such a consensus is reached. You may wish to comment there, though it might be somewhat frustrating. That's just how Wikipedia is. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

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GA nomination for Anthony Chenevix-Trench
Hi, I've been doing the review of the Anthony Chenevix-Trench GA nomination. Khazar2 has kindly agreed that they will watch over my shoulder as I'm still pretty inept at reviewing GAs. I apologise in advance if I've said or done anything incorrectly! It's a fascinating article! Thanks. SagaciousPhil  -  Chat  09:59, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Help with RFC/U
Thank you for your interest in "helping new editors". Thank you for pointing out the apparent experience differential. Reviewing the dialog at Talk:Democratic Party of Cook County and User_talk:Homeaccount, my feeling is that an important aspect of the problem may be seen in the record of fundamental issues of comprehensions of WP policies, guidlelines, and norms; more specifically, misunderstandings with respect to 1. fending off WP:MOS with appeals to RS style, 2. individual vs. collective responsibility for WP:NPOV, 3. WP:NPA, and 4. WP:IDHT, more detail including relevant diffs here. I feel clarification of our norms may be a prerequisite for collaboration on specific content. Might you consider approaching the editor and attempting to clarify one or more of these issues? I believe a WP:RFC/U may be the best available tool to initiate a level-setting discussion of policies and guidelines and I would like to ask your help in certifying the request. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 19:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not convinced that the other editor is significantly astray with the majority of the four points you mention, so I wouldn't be able to certify an RfC/U. I've asked an editor experienced in the topic of 20th century politics in the USA to take a look at both content and conduct issues, but he has declined the opportunity (see a few sections further up this talk page). There was a suggestion by someone else, I think, that WP:DRN might be a good place to go. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * "I'm not convinced that the other editor is significantly astray with the majority of the four points you mention" Thanks for the reply. How about one of the four issues? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 19:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Despite the rather inadequate advice at WP:RFC/U, I think to have a realistic chance of an RFC/U being productive, one needs to document an extensive history of seriously problematic behaviour. (To get an idea of what I mean, look at Requests for comment/User conduct/Archive and read through a few of the ones listed as "no consensus" or "delisted due to inactivity", examining in particular the amount, detail, and gravity of the evidence presented for these.) I could be wrong, but I don't think a history of this nature exists. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:45, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. Let's put aside the RFC/U for now, that's getting ahead of ourselves. I would prefer not to do an RFC/U, I have never done one and I don't want to start now. My humble understanding is that a prereq is that 2 editors do not make progress; let's be optimistic that we can make progress. Can you please attempt to engage on clarifying? Of the 4 issues I mentioned earlier, perhaps the most clear is the issue of WP:MOS vs. RS style: section User_talk:Homeaccount includes 5 article space diffs of reverts with the 1-word edit summary "cited", 5 article space diffs of reverts with similar related edit summaries such as "as per source," and 5 diffs of talk space posts which taken together indicate a possible misconception about the relationship of RS style to WP style. I have tried to reach out and engage with little success, can you try? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 21:44, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Having looked very briefly at the first diff and the associated source, there are some things I find potentially problematic with it. I will try to find time to look at the rest, and reply here in detail, probably this weekend. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:28, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello. How was your weekend? Can you please reach out on the user talk page on the issue of wp vs. rs, in the context of the above linked edits, edit summaries, and talk page posts? Thanks in advance. Hugh (talk) 15:54, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Busy. And this one hasn't been much better. I'll get to it when I can. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2013 (UTC)