User talk:DigitalC/archive 4

Regarding DC's as "Physicians"
Dig - First of all thanks for the clarification. I certainly don't want to argue, an especially with you; especially when you are in the process of helping me solve a huge problem.... i.e. the FICS matter;  however, this is a distinction without a difference. I have been in Court many times as an expert witness, and can tell you that I am a "physician" practicing Chiropractic, not somehow limited to saying only that I am a "chiropractic Physician". Interestingly, when I go to court in New York where (because at that time 1/3 the AMA was practicing there), DC's are not allowed the use of the word Physician, only "Doctor"... (stupid enough)... As I practice in NJ, when asked "Doctor, are you a licensed physician?", my answer is always "Yes, I am"... then they get all flustered and ask about drugs... etc. I assure you I am on sound legal grounds here.

Of course, I am a "Chiropractic physician", in the same way that an MD is an "Allopathic Physician" and a DO is an "Osteopathic Physician". We are all Physicians.

One year, when I was with the World Federation's Delegation in Geneva, at the WHO General Assembly, I was able to proffer a definition of "Physician" as; a Doctor, who is licensed to diagnose to diagnose human disease, and is not anatomically limited". This differentiates MD,DO, DC, from DDS,OD, and DPM...  and DVMs too. It is certainly possible that there are States in which a DC can only use the title physician in conjunction with the modifier, but I am not aware of any. In all States that I know of, any kind of doctor,  is required to use the degree in conjunction with the title when advertising. Thus, one lists oneself as "Dr. Stephen Press" together with either the degree, DC, or the Words Chiropractic Physician. I could just as well list myself as Stephen J. Press, DC,PhD, CCSP, FACSM, FICC, and then underneath all that write "Licensed Physician", or just "Physician" As long as the DC is there. It is just as illegal (technically) for an MD to say John Jones, "Physician", in lieu of "John Jones, MD, Physician".  I think I can provide legal references. Though state by state; that would be time consuming. Sorry to be a pain...  I try to cure pains. :)

Drsjpdc (talk) 19:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Drsjpdc, but there is no way a Physician would ever refer to themself as an "Allopathic Physician". DigitalC (talk) 20:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC) This is true, only becasue of degree recognition: I.e., Dr. KIldare, and Ben Casey, etc, etc, ad nauseum....  this is how other kinds of physicians refer to THEM to differentiate  ourselves....  Drsjpdc (talk) 16:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Either way, I don't think the source is good enough for the claim, and would agree with Eubulides that it doesn't belong in the lead. If you could find a source that talks about Chiropractors using the term "Physician", and not just "Chiropractic Physician", I would be interested to see it. DigitalC (talk) 20:49, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, I am researching this... will provide more data. Thanks for keeping the discussion open.Drsjpdc (talk) 16:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

FICS
DigitalC -- I think you have done a bang up job on this article. The original was unsourced, and highly POV (having been written by the group's founder). I was unable to find any sourced to corroborate any of the claims of importance found in the original article. You have done a far better job of research than either I or any of the other voters at the original AfD were able to accomplish. I definitely think the article is worthy of publication now -- go for it. In recognition of your efforts, I award you...

DigitalC - Firstly, can I second the Bronze Star, or add clusters? There are a few issues, though they are really things I could edit later. Slight spelling errors of the Dr. Noirat's name, and I think it is important to note that "Sport Accord" and GAISF, are one and the same organization. GAISF has a page, and thus I suggest that a redirect is in order, or to move the page to "Sport Accord", their NEW NAME, and redirect from the GAISF name.

I know that this is a little arcane, especially for those outside of the IOC family and Int'l sports culture, but GAISF (cum "Sport Accord") is an organization which is really the union of ALL the World Sports Governing Bodies, and holds sway, 24/7, while, the IOC, while far better known, is really only responsible for World level sport, once every four years. To obtain IOC "recognition", an International Federation must (usually; the glaring exception in the past 20  years  was FIDE (Chess)) become  recognized as  a member of GAISF  FIRST. This gives that Federation a virtual monopoly on the governance of that sport, or function; in this case Sports Chiropractic. So they are really VERY important, though less visible, in this arena.

Shouldn't the claim, which everyone in the AfD disputed; i.e., that I "founded" FICS be documented? I provided a link to the FICS Website that was online in 2004, after a legal settlement between myself and their Board (which was  trying to erase my legacy), that clearly lists me as having "founded" the federation.

Can we have the page include the logo? And if not, why?

Finally, I gave you the name in the official languages of the Federation, and at least, there should be a disambiguation from "FICS", to  differentiate from the Free Internet Chess  Server, and a rediret from the Name in French, which is actually the official name of the Federation.

All my thanks, Fantastic job....

Drsjpdc (talk) 16:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have already proposed a move of GAISF to SportAccord. I do have a third-party source for you as the founder, and can add it if it is really disputed (I'll check the AfD). I'm not sure about including the logo, and whether that is ok or not per licensing/copyright. Once the article goes to mainspace, I will include a redirect from the french name, and disambig link from FICS. DigitalC (talk) 17:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

DigitalC - You da MAN !! Seriously... fantastic job! Learned a lot from you. Thanks, so much.

Drsjpdc (talk) 21:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

DigitalC: HELP!!!! Check out the page; the same people put a deletion tag on it, claiming that it still has multiple issues; may have been re-posted by someone with a COI, etc., etc, etc.... I thought this was put to rest???

Drsjpdc (talk) 17:15, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

ANI
FYI, I cited your comment in a post I made at ANI, here. Cirt (talk) 04:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of International Federation of Sports Chiropractic
A tag has been placed on International Federation of Sports Chiropractic, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as at articles for deletion. Under the specified criteria, where an article has substantially identical content to that of an article deleted after debate, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. Bongo  matic  05:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that you removed the speedy deletion tag yourself, note that per WP:CSD (and the large bold letters on the tag) you are not permitted to remove speedy deletion tags from articles that you create. --kelapstick (talk) 01:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Apologies, you have similar usernames, and I am tired...--kelapstick (talk) 01:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

NEW FLAGS ON THE FICS PAGE
DigitalC --- now its being challenged by Stwalkerster line by line for each reference... I am really  starting to think that there are people out there who REALLY do not want anything about Chiropractic regardles of how deserving and regardless of WP  policies. Drsjpdc (talk) 01:58, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't being challenged by Stwalkerster, it is being challenged by Bongo. I am aware of it, and will be replying. DigitalC (talk) 02:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

oops... mistook the sig on that one.. thanks... apologies to Stwalkerster, Drsjpdc (talk) 15:26, 9 October 2009 (UTC) Dig, check this out.... in the discussion page for FICS, bongo say "if the herald sun wrote about the JV...." I think he is confusing the FICS article which has NOTHING to do with a Joint Venture with the MIS article I wrote... where, by the way, I just added a bunch of cites and secondary references too. Drsjpdc (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * No, he is meaning the effort of RMIT and FICS co-hosting a seminar. More of a joint-effort than a joint-venture.
 * DigitalC (talk) 22:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

As to your comments on the MIS page... I was talking only about the  COI allegation flag, not the AfD process. But while on that... what can be done about Bongo's flag on the FICS page... that's not under the AfD  process...  doe it just stay there forever, unless HE decide to remove it? There must be a processs for that??? No??

By the way.... thank very much for your patience and guidance in this VERY complicated process. Drsjpdc (talk) 02:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I will remove to COI tag from the MIS article. If a consensus develops on the FICS page, the tags will be removed. It really isn't a problem to have tags on the article though, in fact it can be good in that it can encourage more editors to give their input DigitalC (talk) 14:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Dig - I apparently did something new, which was poorly thought out. I added a reference to my book, because it has the whole story of the founding of FICS. WikiDan went in an replaced the whole COI crap there, which is clearly unwarranted, since YOU were the major contributor, and then removed all mention of me as a Past-President, never mind founder, despite that none of that was my work, and cut the whole thing. I am really sorry that I have caused this problem.... I promise that it was NOT for self aggrandizement, though I do understand that it could be seen that way. I won't touch it again without asking you first. Promise. Drsjpdc (talk) 19:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Please note that I have not touched the International Federation of Sports Chiropractic page since its revival by DigitalC. In fact, I proffered him a barnstar for his efforts in that regard.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Dig - when I got messages from WikiDan, I went to the FICS page to see what he removed. I swear I saw a whole section gone, in addition to the foolishly added cite. As soon as apologized, it all came back. Sorry to all for the confusion. AS I said, I won't touch that page again without consulting you first. Drsjpdc (talk) 19:25, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

FICS & UNESCO reference
DigitalC - I just rechecked and the http://erc.unesco.org/ong/en/directory/ONG_Desc_portal.asp?mode=mb&code=728 [Click on "Members" (at top)]  does in fact list FICS. Check it out. Drsjpdc (talk) 21:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

New Project
Dig, I'm putting together a proposal for an article for which I see a serious need. In my profession there are any number of "letters" people use after their names, and no where is there a reference  for anyone to know what they mean, their recognition or acceptance, generally, or even within our profession. There are even some using letters which are not allowed by the bodies issuing them, like the American College of Sports  Medicine which does not allow the use of MACSM  (Member, ACSM). or the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners, which has published that  use of the title Diplomate  of the Nat'l Bd, is not a credential because everyone HAS to take that board to get a license.

I have started putting a page together in mysandbox at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Drsjpdc/Chropractic_Post-Graduate_Credentials

Q1: Can this be done to meet WIKI standards? And, if the answer is even a qualified yes, then Q2: Would you collaborate with me to get this done in a way acceptable to the WIKI community? --Drsjpdc (talk) 20:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I can tell you have put a lot of work into that page already. As such, I'm sorry to say that I don't think it can probably be done according to WP policy. Again, I would suggest following the advice I gave you on your talkpage. Start with finding the sources. You don't reference ANY sources on that sandbox page - so how do we meet WP:Notability? The next major WP policy to think about is WP:V/WP:RS. Do you have reliable, third-party sources for the information included in that page?


 * Now, again, I need to say that that is only my opinion. I am only an editor on WP, just as you are. There is no ranking of editors on WP. As such, no user has more or less say on content than another other editor - we are all equal in that regard. There are editors that are also administrators and they have other controls, such as the ability to block users, impose restrictions, and attempt to control user behaviour, but even admins have the same amount of say when it comes to content.


 * What I am trying to get across is that once you feel that you have that sandboxed page referenced properly, and you feel that is meets WP:Notability, then perhaps you should go to a noticeboard and ask for outside opinion again. The article reads more like a List of Chiropractic Credentials, and as I have never written a list, I'm not exactly sure how Notability works for list articles.


 * One of the biggest stumbling blocks I see is that you stated "no where is there a reference for anyone to know what they mean, their recognition or acceptance, generally, or even within our profession". Wikipedia only covers what has already been covered. If there is no reference, then how is this article going to meet WP:V] & [[WP:N?


 * Sorry for the long-winded reply.
 * DigitalC (talk) 15:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Not at all. MOST appreciated.... of course I was planning to locate all possible references (learned that lesson)... as the saying goes..."screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me".... so this was clearly unfinished work... I was just interested in your thoughts on feasibility, not whether its ready for prime time. I know better now. I am more or less educable :)

ALSO, I did take the liberty of adding a couple of references to the FICS site. THESE I think you'll like, because they include two that show the importance of GAISF to other IF's, and one key reference, that is GAIFS's official  criteria for membership... somthing that wikidan noted was lacking to show GAIFS's importance.

Drsjpdc (talk) 23:40, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have a link to where WikiDan said this? I removed one of the references already, as it was tangential to FICS. If anything, it belongs on the SportAccord article.
 * Also, above you stated that you were "planning to locate all possible references". I want to repeat that the best way to write an article is to locate all possible references first then write the article based on what they say. We want to summarize what is already written, not find references for what we say. That way we follow WP:NPOV, and don't have to worry about finding a source. DigitalC (talk) 23:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked at the references you added. They didn't mention FICS at all, and as such shouldn't be used in the FICS article, in my opinion anyway. They might be useful over at SportAccord. I don't think anyone is doubting that SportAccord is an international sports accrediting agency. DigitalC (talk) 23:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

FICS MORE REFERENCES FOUND
Dig,

Check these out.... I think they add to the Notability resolution....

Bureau of Translation, for Sport Canada (their NOC) lists FICS http://www.btb.gc.ca/publications/documents/sport.pdf

Another page on the World Games, reporting on how the FICS Chiros treated athletes there... http://www.duisburg.de/worldgames_archiv/en/news/news.php@id=1172

AEQ = Spanish Association of Chiropractic WEbsite : http://www.quiropractica-aeq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=63

UNESCO document in Spanish re meeting of Ministers and High Officials involved in Sport and Physical Education, : Lists FICS http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0013/001337/133795s.pdf

SCIENCE Digest online page for references to research in Chiropractic: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleListURL&_method=list&_ArticleListID=1056517261&_sort=r&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=58d465c170290e8b420b716f4c232375 removed as search times out

Reference to FICS in website of Mexican Sports Chiropractic Association http://www.femexquiropractica.com/htmltonuke.php?filnavn=html/actualidad.htm and; http://www.femexquiropractica.com/modules.php?name=News&pagenum=2

Reference to Dr. Greenway Of FICS, in official  diocument  from the XIX Central Amercan and  Carribean Games http://www.deporte.gob.mx/eventos/jcc2002/boletin/nota_leer.asp?id=1041

Official Document regarding an Assembly of Sports Chiropractic in mexico, involving the MExican Sports Chiro Assoc, which is a member of the FICS, and mentions the "federacion INternacional in the last paragraph, as an authority. http://conade.gob.mx/conade_11/informacion_10_noticia.asp?id=1787

Website for the Chileno Chiropractic Association sowing their membership in FICS http://www.quiropraxiachile.com/

Lone Paraguayan DC's site citing FICS as the authority in Lausanne http://www.axontw.com.ar/amed.html

Article in Chiroeco.com... reporting that Ron Froelich, Pres. of the World Games announces that a team of FICS DC's with be in Kaoshiung...http://www.chiroeco.com/chiropractic/news/7971/52/Sports-chiropractors-to-be-at-Vancouver-Olympics-and-World-Games/

Finally I have TWO more from major newspapers:  I have the dates, papers, and page numbers... I just cant find them online anywhere....

Bergen Record, NJ - Tuesday, Dec 6, 1988, FrontPage, "Lifestyle" section: includes the words "Press was elected President of the International Federation of Sports  Chiropractic". Yes, the article is about me.... but it certainly shows notability not only of yours truly, but more importantly for now, of FICS.

And,

El Excelsior, Mexico City, Sunday, 6th Mar. 1988, Page 1, section B; "Los resultados de la Quiropractica se discutieron en la I asemblea, que tuvo lugar en la Ciudad de Mexico". There are photos of me and the Board of FICS with then Miniser of Sport of Mexico, Sr. Pasqual Ortiz-Rubio. At the the 2nd general assembly of FICS held there at that time. There I am again... but tat's what happens when you start a world agency. :)

Finally, we could ask ATAMA to look for us in Japanese, when the World Congress of Chiropractic was in Tokyo in 1997, the Minister of Health of Japan opened the proceedings (yes I was there too), and boht the WFC and FICS were co-sponsors of the congress, which was  held under the aegis of the WHO for the first time....  this HAD to be in the Japanese papers at the time.... but I admit to illiteracy in Japanese.

Regards,

Д-р СДжП,ДС 17:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Chiropractic schools
Dig, before you do the work to remove it, please consider what I wrote on the discussion page. I fully intend to remove it myself.The ECCE is sending me a link to the location of this document, which is an OFFICIAL document of the ECCE. Remember, after all, these people all know me from FICS. I expect this to be straightened out in about two days. It seems silly to to waste your time to undo all the work I did to post this, under those circumstances. I just posted that as a "placeholder". As soon as I get their URL can just replace the URL in the references. Д-р СДжП,ДС 03:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

BTW already found that page and had to do all that work all over again to give the proper reference. OK, yet another lesson learned the hard way. Д-р СДжП,ДС 04:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, another lesson for you is that if you click the "history" tab, you can undo my edit. That may have been an easier way to "redo" the work. DigitalC (talk) 13:43, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I know that. Thanks, but by that time I had already added something else, and got an error mesage saying that an intervening edit had prevented me from doing that. :)
 * Perhaps we should put this new data into a wikitable, especially in the US sections... want to help? Д-р СДжП,ДС 16:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that the US section could use a table. I'm not sure if that means we should turn the whole thing into a table, or perhaps have a table for each continent?. I am thinking fields could be "Country/Name/City/Accreditation/Reference" or something along those lines. I've never worked with tables before. DigitalC (talk) 19:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Stephen Press

 * I added the tables before I saw this answer. I hope you approve of the way I did this. We can enlarge them to your suggestion; which I like even better. BTW:  have been adding references and citations (NEWSPAPERS, TV AND RADIO LISTINGS) to the bio on User:Drsjpdc/Stephen J. Press2.  As I clearly have a COI here, would you do me the honor of reviewing this for possible listing?  I think I have answered the "notability issue" to anyone's satisfaction now.  And, anyway as it is now res judicatathat I founded a "notable" federation; welllll . You did a great job of getting FICS' page up. Д-р СДжП,ДС  22:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Founding a notable federation does not give you Notability. We follow the general notability guideline, WP:GNG. I'm not sure that your article would pass WP:N, but it certainly needs some cleanup before being moved to mainspace by an admin. See the talkpage of the sandboxed article for some of the work that needs to be done. Once it has been cleaned up, and those problems fixed, then you may wish to have someone else look over it in regards to notability. My concerns are that most of the references are primary sources. The only references that I have access to that give significant coverage are multiple issues of Dynamic Chiropractic - which IS a reliable source, but in my mind, if you are significantly notable, more than one publication should have given you significant coverage. But, others may disagree. DigitalC (talk) 19:09, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Dig - thanks ever so much for all that work on the bio. When you told me originally that it was really hard ot be objective one's own bio, you were NOT kidding! Pheww...

I will try to clean this up as suggested in you voluminous answer. As to the 3rd party references, there are several, the paper in Venezuela, the Bergen Record, and the Paper in Mexico City (several with photos of me there with their Ministers of Sport.). There are also a few US television programs, even including a listing of my name in TV guide at the time. Certainly this should be sufficient to pass "notability"???Д-р СДжП,ДС  22:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have access to those newspapers, so it is hard to assess notability. As I stated on the talk page, if you could provide a relevant quote from the papers, on the talk page, that would be quite helpful. DigitalC (talk) 17:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Drsjpdc (talk)Д-р СДжП,ДС 22:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Drsjpdc (talk)Д-р СДжП,ДС

IAOCO
Dig, want to help? The IAOCO is not as well known as FICS, but it IS the honorary society for the DC's who have served National Olympic Committees  as official team doctors, and should be "notable" per se. See. Like FICS, I have a COI here, as founding and current Chairman. Д-р СДжП,ДС 22:15, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * An organization is only notable if we have independent sources that give it significant coverage. I'm not sure this is the case with IAOCO. I'll look into it next week. DigitalC (talk) 12:34, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I received your talkback notice, but couldn't find any messages to me at your talk page. Perhaps we should keep the discussion here? DigitalC (talk) 20:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You got backto it too fast... as I was writing the list. You're just too efficient. My bad actually, I should have written my answer and THEN given you the heads up. :) Д-р СДжП,ДС 20:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Unsigned comments
Ooops!!! Thanks for catching those. I'm usually much better about such things! WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. I just got caught leaving an unsigned comment yesterday, and I thought I was pretty good about that too ;) DigitalC (talk) 17:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Founding in London
Dig, the following article says "FICS was founded in London, in 1987".

The importance of showing where the agency was founded, is simply to support that it wasn't in someones basement. I'm still looking for a reference re Kensington Hall.

I suspect this can be used to corroborate the statement in both the SJP and the FICS articles.?? Д-р СДжП,ДС 17:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree that it is important, and without references for all we know it could have been formed in someones basement in London, England. I still feel it is triviata. DigitalC (talk) 18:59, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

SJP Article
Doing a great job. Thanks so much. Is this going online one day soon?Д-р СДжП,ДС 17:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I still don't think its ready, it needs more copyediting. The references all need to be formatted properly, and it would be good to ask someone else about notability. DigitalC (talk) 19:00, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Check out the following link. This is the whole story that never made it into the Chiroweb search engine for some reason. It was a page 1 story too!.Д-р СДжП,ДС 02:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I was just at the Wikipedians meeting at Columbia Univ in NYC today. I spoke to a couple of admins, and asked the generic question about whether the Founder (and presidents) of an International Organization  that has passed the "notability" test are themselves "notable" and was given an unqualified yes, that they by definition are per se notable if for nothing else. This was not just one opinion but at least two. Moreover, I should think that the above link resolves that issue for the BLP involved.Д-р СДжП,ДС 02:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Drsjpdc (talk)Д-р<sub style="margin-left:-3.2ex;"> СДжП,ДС 22:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

talk (talk)Д-р<sub style="margin-left:-3.2ex;"> СДжП,ДС 05:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Dig, can you email me at sjp@sport-dc.com? My son actualyl came up with an idea, and we got it started online. I would like to run it by you, and invite you to participate. Д-р<sub style="margin-left:-3.2ex;"> СДжП,ДС 22:23, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry Drsjpdc, I really don't have time to help implement your idea. As it is, I don't really have much time for WP these days, so I can't really start up another project. DigitalC (talk) 16:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)