User talk:Director/Archive 5

Heads up and my personal apology
Hello DIREKTOR et al. I'm writing here because I know the group of you will get this message. While I cannot support ultra nationalists of any stripe or colour, I write to you to convey my disapproval of the so-called "Italian" side of this coin, especially since I notice my name has been included to suggest I sympathise- I DO NOT! In fact, I have "retired" my account because I'm tired of WP's inability to deal with POV pushers on lower profile articles [that includes your lot, by the way]. Anyways... I cannot help the occasional snooping and, this time, I could not resist intervention. I am certain User:Pannonicus, User:Marygiove and numerous anon IP numbers (for example   and many others, always from Colorado, USA) are puppets of User:Brunodam. He is on this mission of promoting Italian irredentism, including use of Template:Italian Ethnic Groups for this purpose. I am not sure if there is a direct connection with GG and his alter egos, but of Brunodam I am positive (In fact, there is one slipped contribution where he signs as "Mary", but is logged on as Brunodam!). While I will likely continue to snoop from time to time, in future I will not intervene. Ciao, Mariokempes (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The worst part of it is that I somehow got the reputation of an "anti-Italian" activist or something. I go to Italy (of my own free will:) almost twice a year in average, and its not to mine bridges or crash into skyscrapers, either.
 * Anyway, thanks for the heads up, Mariokempes. Didn't he say he broke his leg or what not a few months back, you don't suppose it was for the purpose of throwing us off-course? Could you report the guy for puppeteering? You seem to know where most of the evidence is -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Mariokempes, what a breath of fresh air to read your words. Brunodam's already been known to 'speak through invisible friends'. See Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Brunodam. I'd like to take the opportunity to join this conversation here to say a couple of things. First, we know there are basically three groups of people who edit Wikipedia. There's the out and out vandals, mostly kids, I think, who randomly delete text or add "YOU ARE G*Y!" to articles. Then there are the two main groups. Those who are keen on making a better, more detailed, more balanced encyclopedia. This is the vast majority. Then there is the third group, those who have issues or agendas in their minds, and seek to use Wiki as a forum or platform for them. Mario, these are the people on your mind, of course. Now, in this case, the troubled history of Dalmatia means that there are people in the last group who have strong opinions about Dalmatia's history, and Wiki is a place where they have a chance to put their views across. Dalmatia is not the worst Wiki-area, by the way. If you want to see some real blood on the carpet, have a look at the articles about the Armenian genocide, for example. But there are some who see the post WWII settlement on the eastern side of the Adriatic as a profound injustice. GG and Cherso are the names that spring to mind. Mariokempes, I want to strongly point out (but completely in the spirit of your message, of understanding and friendship) that while you say "the group of you will get this message", yes that's true - Direktor's talk is on my watchlist - I don't see us as 'a group'. I think there are basically four of us (Kubura, Zen, Direktor and me) who have these articles on our watchlists and who regularly contribute to them. But I don't know any of them; I don't know any of their real names; I don't even know if they are male or female. I can absolutely say there is no orchestration involved. If we are a group, we are that because we share an interest in these articles and try to make sure that there is no particular opinion or bias in them. We have naturally coalesced around these articles because we share the same outlook about Wikipedia. I have never once seen an edit by any of this 'group' of editors that I would call 'nationalist' or POV. I would oppose it if I did. Nearly every edit we make is to remove nationalist content. Normally it's silly things, like adding the Italian flag at the top of talk pages, or what places should be called. I don't know. I guess I just want to say that I've read your message to Direktor, and I personally appreciate it very much. I recently got a warning for vandalism because I wrote something on Cherso's talk page when he'd written some inflammatory anti-Slavic stuff there. I don't think any of the admins read what Cherso wrote to inspire my response, but that's Wikipedia. That's what you call "WP's inability to deal with POV pushers". AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The main problem, if I may add, is the profound bias these guys have. We are talking about either Venetian "nationalists" ("nostalgics" is perhaps the more appropriate name) who are extremely fond of their city's (rich) historical culture and tradition, a vital part of which is control over the Dalmatian coast (the Adriatic sea has even been known as the Gulf of Venice). They simply try to make the Dalmatian region seem as Italian as possible (though Italians/Venetians have always been a minority).
 * Then there's the "other kind", the "esuli" (exiles). These guys descend from people who left Dalmatia after Italy lost WW2. Now, the situation is complex here. The term "exiles" is of course an over dramatization, as no one actually forced them to leave with military power, but they did leave because of the extremely inhospitable environment they found themselves in. The Slavic population that surrounded them was indeed hostile to those they saw as former oppressors, aggressors and occupiers (keep in mind the brutality of the WW2 Yugoslav front). The fact remains that this hostility was almost certainly not specifically planned (there was no need, after all) by the Yugoslav government. This is a complex situation because the emigrants are indeed unfortunate people and a kind of voluntary refugees, even though the search for a better life in Italy almost certainly played its part in their motivation. The experience of being passively forced to leave their homes made them (and apparently their children) extremely racially biased and aggressive against Slavs they see as a culturally inferior but numerically superior people (something like Tolkien's Orcs :). Now with all due sympathy to their family past, such bias is unacceptable on Wikipedia, and must be pointed out to the Admins. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 00:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Any hint of creating some encyclopedic balance in these articles is crushed when I come across statements like this. You are just as bad as the "Italian" ultra nationalists and your "suggestion" that the "Italians" are aligned with the British and Americans really makes me shake my head. My apology above was an "olive branch" to all of you: an understanding that the two zealots you confront (Yes, I believe there are only two- I'll let you guess which one Cherso belongs to) do not represent a unified Italian voice or even the majority. And, if I may, I think my English is quite good- better than most Americans! Mariokempes (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What?! Calm down Mario! I merely stated accepted fact, its not disputed that Slavs constituted a majority in Dalmatia as a region, even by the irredentists! You are NOT "aligned" with the Americans and British, and that is certainly not what I meant. All I meant was that Italian culture is closer to the English culture than the Slavic culture is, and this is also widely accepted. Italian names simply "sound better" in general (to Slavs as well), and this is also widely accepted. Example: "Zara" sounds a lot better than "Zadar", (and can be a lot more easily pronounced) even though it is incorrect. You really need to calm down, I meant no offence as I was talking about the irredentists. However if you do believe Dalmatia is "rightfully Italian" or something like that then there is no need to offer any olive branches, I'm afraid. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 18:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Direktor, I am calm... and where do I say Dalmatia is rightfully "Italian"? I was not reacting to your statement that "Slavs constituted a majority in Dalmatia as a region". I was reacting to the tone of your message. We both agree these guys are supreme idiots (that is not the issue). Maybe I misread these cyber discussions... but I was referring to what I perceive as an aggressive air. I cannot pretend to understand the Croatian spirit (what a stereotype!), but you give me the sense you are lumping all Italians together as imperial irredentists when my "olive branch" was a statement to the contrary. I will say there is a most definite Italian connection to Istria and Dalmatia, and if you see this as imperialsim then we have nothing further to discuss. If you agree, we are well under way to balance and full representation in the articles. For someone who is "retired" I've spent a fair bit of time on WP lately. Ciao Mariokempes (talk) 19:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Lumping all Italians together...! I mean no offense, but that's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I heard in weeks, I have a two dozen Italian relatives (I can't even count them anymore:) and at least a dozen friends on the other side of the Adriatic! And I'm anyway not as stupid as to "lump" any nation together. Every country and its people are divided a thousand times over various issues and beliefs, especially Italy (if I may say so). You guys have a hundred parties, and I'm still not sure who is in a coalition with who over there and for what reasons (not that Croatia is much better). Like I've written on my userpage: I AM NOT ANTI-ITALIAN, I just don't like it when Dalmatia's unique mixed culture is "claimed" by these guys and "lumped together" as Italian.
 * Of course there is an Italian connection to Istria nad Dalmatia, noone is even trying to deny that. FFS, we have a huge number of Italian words in our local dialect down here (piaca, peškarija, riva, etc...). -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 21:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi.
I totally agree with what you say that there seems to be somewhat of an anti-slavic stance in wikipedia, and the western world, in general. We have to persist in out efforts to balance articles, and let the truth be told. Slavs aren't just a bunch of primitive, war-mongerers (although recently, we don;t have much to be proud of). The whol italian thing you have been having trouble with, as the same i;m experienceing 'on the other side'- with Greeks about Macedonia et al.

By the way, what was watson's racial theory about DNA ? Hxseek (talk) 23:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi :) Well, I wouldn't call it a deliberate "anti-Slavic stance" (though even here we may find exceptions), its just that Anglo-Saxon culture(s) are understandably "closer" to the Romance ones, than they are to the Slavic. Its incredibly hard for Americans, for example, to pronounce most South Slavic (Serbian/Croatian) words correctly (this I know from many a personal experience). I imagine the situation is less so with Western Slavs, and more so with Eastern Slavs though I can't say I'm exactly an expert. I remember one guy in LA remarking that "Zagreb" sounds like some Klingon word or something, the same guy found it hilarious that I come from a city that's called (a) "Split". Anyway, I agree that people have a "legitimate" reason (of sorts) for perceiving us as primitives when we slaughter each other over what basically amounts to religious differences, on the eve of the 21st century no less.


 * Yeah, I've always been annoyed that the Greeks are forcing Macedonia to keep that FYR prefix to their country's name. They had no objections when the Republic was part of a far more influential political entity. I suppose they fear invasion or something... ;) Anyway, don't get me started on the irredentists.


 * Well, Watson dared to state publicly that people of the Negroid race are scientifically proven to posses somewhat lower intelligence than Caucasians. Now I believe that the mentality of the modern society is greatly restricted by an ever increasing egalitarian stance. I am always in favor of unlimited science, and I cannot abide it when it is diminished to suite the needs of society. For example, IQ testing all over the world has proven beyond question that the sociological group with the highest IQ over all are Caucasian males, but one must not say this in public or in the media for fear of being socially branded a nazi, or racist, or who knows what. Even now that I've written this I may be attacked, just for stating scientific fact. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 02:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Ha. You're a funny, and correct, man. I too am frustrated by all the PC rubbish that goes on today. Fact should be told as it is. I hate all the left-wing quasi -intellectuals who try to impose equality when clearly there is no such thing, just so they fell more self-righteous. ANyway, i won;t get started. Goodluck Hxseek (talk) 04:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW, congradz on your specialization (I'm hoping to be accepted for an Internal medicine specialization myself). Surgery is particularly difficult, I hear. R.A.C.S. is noted even up here, I know of a couple of colleagues hoping to get a specialization down under (on account of their Aussie cousins, I've heard). Good luck yourself. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 04:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks mate. It sure is a long road. Good luck to you as well Hxseek (talk) 05:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Independent State of Croatia
Your most recent edits don't read very well. For instance did you mean to say that the NDH regained de jure responsibility for areas that had been annexed by Hungary? Elsewhere too the English is rather clumsy and potentially ambiguous. I could try to sort it out, but as English is your native language you mightprefer to do it yourself? Regards Kirker (talk) 23:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 00:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you will notice that someone removed "puppet state" from the intro. The new version may be technically accurate, but without saying enough about NDH's subservient status. On the other hand "puppet state" will always be contentious as it is so blatantly derogatory. You said somewhere that Germany dictated the composition of Pavelic's cabinet etc, and if you have a source for that I would like to see it in the article. With that kind of detail added, the terminology would not be too important, since anyone could then see the NDH for what it was. Kirker (talk) 17:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

SPA accounts
I do not see points in discussion with nationalistic SPA accounts. User:Mike Babic is created with only intention to write about good Serbs and bad Croats. Similar to that is User:AP1929 which is writing about Ante Pavelic which has not made anything wrong. They both are nothing else but new versions of SPA accounts user:Votec, user:Justiceinwiki, User:Brkic .... Ulmost every month we are having new nationalistic SPA accounts which are knowing real truth. In my personal thinking User:Mike Babic is puppet of User:Procrustes the clown which has rewrited Serbian version of Yugoslav wars but even if this is true it is not possible to block him because he has not broken any rules (OK he has vandalized my user page). After my blocking of 3 users in second half of February I have expected little peace but ....--Rjecina (talk) 03:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, he looks pretty moderate, his edits are pretty much ok... He didn't write anything radical or expansionist. I'm aware of the large number of Serb nationalists editing Wiki all the time, but I'm going to keep an open mind with this guy. The info he added was pretty much correct and he merely removed that text because of its poor quality I think... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 03:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Now you know problems created by SPA accounts. All historical data which I have added is from other wiki articles and we will not rewrite 10 articles because of nationalistic SPA account--Rjecina (talk) 04:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Do not worry about user:Mike Babic . He is having so many warning on talk page (must are my warning but there is administrator warning) that his edits days will end very soon.
 * I am having many experience with SPA account and my only point: discussion is not possible, because they do not listen. They are ulmost always puppets of banned editor because of which compromise about article is not possible (in my thinking). After blocking or banning of SPA account I revert article to last version before his editing,--Rjecina (talk) 19:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I see, are you sure you'll be able to stop his edits? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 19:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Last night he has recived administrator warning about edit warring. After that he has reverted users Aradic-en, DIREKTOR , Kubura in article Serbs of Croatia and has writen POV stuff in article Republic of Serbian Krajina together with SPA account Procrustes the clown. In my thinking Mike Babic is puppet of Procrustes the clown but because I have tried to connect Procrustes the clown with Velebit I will not try this again (it will look like I am attacking this user). All in all I am sure that he will be blocked :) --Rjecina (talk) 19:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Mike Babic story has ended :)) He has used sock (IP address) for reverting articles. I will start action for his blocking today...--Rjecina (talk) 22:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Article is semi-protected and he is blocked for short time period because of 3RR rule. Now I only need to wait because I have reverted 3 times....--Rjecina (talk) 02:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * To tell you truth I am little depressed ...For me must important wiki thing is to revert ban. About problem in article NDH I must say that this IP address is writing OK stuff if we look other wikipedia articles. For begining you must change article Axis powers and move sections Slovakia and Croatia from minor axis powers to German puppet states.--Rjecina (talk) 15:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You second important thing is to revert user:Velebit puppet in article Neo-Nazism. This time he has "worked" from IP address 153.39.144.157 . If you look this article you will know about what I am speaking.--Rjecina (talk) 15:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:AE report
A report was filed on you at the arbitration enforcement board yesterday, by someone who might be an inexperienced editor. I just noticed that you hadn't been told. GRBerry 14:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * k -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of VK Gusar
A tag has been placed on VK Gusar requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a club, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guidelines for people and for organizations.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Triwbe (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Messaggi di servizio
Ciao. Per favore, non scrivere voci notoriamente non enciclopediche e, di conseguenza, non cancellare i messaggi dalle tue discussioni. Grazie, MOJSKA   666  (msg) 11:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * In your user page you written that you can speak Italian. I am happy to talk with you by my language, but if you don't talk it very good, the meaning of my frase is the following. Hi. Please don't write unencyclopedic articles and don't delete warning messages from your user talk page. Bye, MOJSKA   666  (msg) 11:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I can speak Italian rather well, but I'm careful about using other languages since I've been warned to use English several times. What I meant is what warning are you referring to? I wasn't aware that I received warning messages (only notices) or that deleting them from your talkpage is a breach of Wiki policy. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 11:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * examples of deletion of messages from your talk. I only ask you of don't delete they no more. MOJSKA   666  (msg) 11:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Per WP:TALK it is permissable to remove warnings from your own talk page. Indeed, it is considered an acknowledgement that you have read and understood the messages. Therefore, nothing to worry about here Mojska. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 12:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's what I thought... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Wait a second, they weren't warnings...!? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed not, but I thought I'd phrase it like that for the benefit of friend Mojska, for whom harmony seems not to be the highest priority, judging by his own talk page... :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellently explained, my thanks. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

VK Grusar
The article needs some major work put in. Firstly, citations and references for the most successful club bit. Perhaps adding an info box with important information like dates and such would help expand the article. Maybe look at other "team" sport type pages for some ideas. Otherwise, I fear that the article will be up for speedy, prod, or other form of deletion. If you are still working on the article User:DIREKTOR maybe put an "underconstruction" tag on it while you are expanding it. Just attempting to be helpful, hope it comes across that way. Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Timeline of Yugoslavian breakup
I think that we need this sort of article. Can you please help in editing ?--Rjecina (talk) 19:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course. not today, though, going to bed early. see you tomorrow. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXV (March 2008)
The March 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 01:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Bed
What are you still doing up, asshole? Don't you have a bed to go to? I'm going to call your mother to complain. :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 00:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Bed? who hoes to bed?! Gotta fight the good fight on Wiki don't I ;) Seriously, I just downloaded the 3rd season of Battlestar Galactica and I can't stop watching (help!). I swear, that show is the only science fiction series I can bear to watch these days... I think I'm finally starting to get old and irritable (mommy told me that'll happen). Its not like there's much to do around this backwater anyway, I'm staring out my window on one of the most important city thoroughfares and there isn't a single car on the road, damn depressing :( --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 00:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Galactica? Easily the best SF series ever. By a distance. I too am thoroughly addicted...

Regarding your cmts at Bleiburg today, I wholeheartedly agree. I saw the sentence regarding some TV phone in and couldn't quite believe my eyes. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Without question, I can't wait to see the ending Olmos and his buddies cook up. I get the feeling it could turn out to be a spoiler, though, the plot is getting too complicated. The show was on TV around here about a year and a half ago, and I didn't watch it, so now I'm making up for lost time before season 4 airs.


 * The real question is should we start including phone in "poll" results from all the second-rate TV shows from various ex-Yugoslav channels? It could turn out to be quite an interesting collection of "information"... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 23:11, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Moving articles
I can't claim not to have made the same mistake... Well, that's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th. The 4th and 5th had names, so that's all then? —WWoods (talk) 07:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Official caution
These comments by you were not helpful. You are still personalizing your edits too much, saying that someone must "have some agenda", or sarcastically referring to anyone, even yourself, as "anti-Italians". Let me be clear, you must stop the personal comments about other editors. I do not want to have to issue sanctions against a longterm editor, but this is a volatile situation that I do not want to see further escalate. So please stick to discussing the article, not the other editors. --Elonka 07:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Very well, I'll try to be more courteous. My post did concern edits after all, but if a person obviously does not follow WP:NPOV am I not allowed to say so? I really don't think what I said constitutes a personal attack. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 08:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand that in some contexts it might be okay, but I'm lowering the boom, I want everyone strictly civil, because I honestly believe that it'll focus the discussion. Also, I should advise that I am in the Working group on cultural and ethnic edit wars. We are actively brainstorming ways to deal with these kinds of conflicts on Wikipedia, so I'm choosing a few disputes here and there as "test cases" to try out some new techniques. So trust me, my close supervision is being done for the best of reasons.  Just stay excruciatingly civil, keep your edits extremely well-sourced, stick scrupulously to WP:NPOV, and you won't have any trouble.  And if you have suggestions on how these kinds of disputes can be better dealt with (all across Wikipedia), please feel free to give me open feedback on the process. And lastly, as I've mentioned before, please consider refactoring earlier posts of yours.  It would really help a great deal.  Thanks, Elonka 08:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Vote
Sorry, DIREKTOR. "Dalmatia being part of Montenegro as well.". Dear Direktor, we don't have article: "Croats in Pannonian basin''": these belong to articles "Croats in Serbia", "Croats in Romania", "Croats in Austria", "Croats in Hungary". We don't have article "Croats in Baranja": these belong to articles "Croats" (or we'll make "Croats in Croatia") and "Croats in Hungary". We don't have "Croats in Dalmatia": these belong to articles "Croats"/"Croats in Croatia" and "Croats in Montenegro". We don't have "Croats in Burgenland" (but "Burgenland Croats"; they are too specific case): these belong to articles "Croats in Austria". Articles about nationalities are made according to country, not according to region. So, according to your argument, those 'll be two articles, Italians in Croatia, Italians in Montenegro. Look further. What Dalmatia are they talking about? Mali Lošinj? Rijeka? This has gone way over original boundaries of Dalmatia. "Italian minority in Dalmatia"? I'm not intending to fall into that trap. "Dalmatian Italians" are NOT some special ethnic group. These are Italians that live/lived in Croatia. Don't your recognize the pattern of Italian irredentists (and all others that claimed Croatian territory for themselves)? Evading the name of Croatia at any price. How many times the Croatia is mentioned there? Uninformed person might think that those people are from some other country. Also, the tagging of article is not goodintentional. Dalmatia is not the part of Italy, so the tag "Wikiproject Italy" has got nothing with it. Foreigners do not understand and they do not recognize this iredentists' game. Foreigners see this too romantically, and they don't know for all the crap, that we see/recognize it coming. They don't understand what we feel and think, they don't know how it is, when the political leaders (as well as scientific circles) from the neighbouring country (in this case Italy), with population 12 or more times larger then your country's (or 50 millions more), speak about portion of territory of your country as "Italian soil", and when they speak about "reitalianization" of those areas. As a preparation for particular measures for implementation, "scientist" are being engaged, so the pseudoscientific ground is being layed, as well as propagandist measures. In this case, Wikipedia is being used. After being encouraged by their politicians and scholars, ordinary users write *&%!@. Uninformed, naive and "everything seeing romantic" users and admins don't see this as problem. They don't have such problems at their home (they are from too big countries, they don't know for the threats of imperialists from larger country in neighbourhood), so they are wondering "what these Balkan savages are talking about". Finally, regarding article itself: move that image of crap in front of Diocletian's palace (there used to be Riva). I hope that NATO 'll use that ugly airplane runway (runways that has gallows on it) for target practicing. We don't have to present our shame to the whole world. And one more thing: Dante Alighieri association has nothing specifical with Italians in Croatia, AFAIK, it's just another one of many government sponsored-cultural organizations, that promote the certain culture and language... worldwide. Kubura (talk) 12:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I support the renaming, but I oppose to proposed new name. Kubura (talk) 14:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Bed 2
??? :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * ... Give me a break, its the weekend ain't it? besides, its not that late :). -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Get some sleep. Tmrw's g'na be a busy day. The Rab article gets unblocked. Me? I'm homeless. Sleeping on the streets. That's how come I'm still awake. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Before you get some shuteye, have a look at the link I posted on Talk:Rab concentration camp. Be warned though, if you're having a midnight snack or anything, put it away first. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that photo is one that all our Italian co-editors should have in the forefront of their minds. That's why I used it here. Mate, looking forward to meeting you in person for a few beers sometime. ;-)  AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, that was embarrassing :D. Didn't even notice that(!) I just dug up the link in an old discussion page a few minutes ago, thought it was forgotten or something... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No worries. Off to bed now. G'night :-)

Diacritics-arbitration
Hi

I intend to send this argument about spelling the south Slavic names (Franjo Tuđman ,Novak Đoković etc. ) here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration

It seemss it's the only solution!

--Anto (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Aimoe di Savoia-Aoste, Principe di Savoia
Done. :-)

Re: Rab, seems the problem's over, for now at least. If there's any benefit to a situation like that guy Gennarous turning up, the article's much better now than it was a month ago. So that's cool.

See ya :-) --AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I have not abused the policy you quoted
Namely WP:Canvassing allows informing the users who were involved in the article or the discussion. I have not strained from that. Only authors who would contribute to the discussion have been invited to join. -- Imbris (talk) 01:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The user I informed has been participating in the discussion before and also opposed. Your actions to smirge my communications are void. -- Imbris (talk) 01:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Who implied such statements. Please stop clouding the discussion with your emotions. Also If you wanted a real discussion why haven't you notified all the participants of the recend rename crusade. Some of current participants have been on wiki for a meere month or so. Is this the discussion you want to create. -- Imbris (talk) 01:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

King?
I'll stay aside for the moment. My knowledge about this guy is poor, almost none. All that I know is that there was some gazer who was supposed to get title, which never really happened. I'll see if I can dig out some relevant data. Zenanarh (talk) 17:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Re: your message, under Requested moves and Moving guidelines for administrators the normal duration is 5 days. If, as in this case there's no consensus, it should be relisted or an admin can close it as no consensus. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 06:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * For me is not possible to change vote. I have voted in this way even on croatian wikipedia.
 * In my thinking very good compromise is Tomislav II of Independent State of Croatia.
 * Maybe I am mistaking but Croatian parliament has voted for Rome agreements and point of Rome agreements has been Tomislav II--Rjecina (talk) 09:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Hajduk
I wrote that about hajduk many years ago...my English is poor. Ok to leave it but please fix wording or delete OK I want to delete if possible —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.185.84.181 (talk) 04:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Operation Storm
I have lost patience with discussion on talk page. Discussion has started because of SPA account which has wanted that Veritas become source for article and now we are having discussion which source are good for this article. On talk page I have declared that today is last day of my discussions and that somebody will take my place. I am asking you and 1 another editor.--Rjecina (talk) 12:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * In last 12 days talk page of Operation Storm has passed from 102,000 bytes to 235,122 bytes (discussion in last 12 days). I have lost patience for futher discussions. Article has recieved 42 tags (citation needed, unreliable source, verification needed, clarify, dubious). I agree that few of this tags are OK but 42 ???? Because I am looking for sources I can't continue discussion about which sources are OK and which sources are not OK. Somebody from Croatia need to continue this discussion because in my thinking we are having typical bad faith SPA account which like to write about bad Croats ( evidence )--Rjecina (talk) 06:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I am sure that many article problems will be solved if we connect user:Mike Babic and user:AP1929 so that they can start discussion about NDH and Serbs of Croatia :)--Rjecina (talk) 06:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Pavelić has abolished monarchy few days after capitulation of Italy but "Tomislav II" has resigned on October 12--Rjecina (talk) 07:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Closing the King
No mate. Let it run. Someone'll be along to shut it down quickly enough. Unfortunately, with a proposed move like this and similar stuff around Wikipedia you only need one or two with loud voices and there's not much chance of getting anything changed. It's easy to block, very difficult to do anything positive. But at least you tried. :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 18:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Serbs/Craotaia
I do agree that Tudjiman had to comply with restrictions from the US. The outcome at the end proved to be an Croatia that was clearned from the Serbs. Mike Babic (talk) 21:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you please tell me why you think that United Nations General Assembly and Helsinki Watch are not NPOV source ?
 * I do not want that you change vote but I am interested to hear your thinking (so that I can change vote ?)--Rjecina (talk) 13:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

re:Tomislav II of Croatia, 4th Duke of Aosta
I think I'll sit that one out. One battlefield is enough for this weary editor. I think I'll go relax by editing something less controversial and contentious like evolution, September 11, or abortion. :P Ani  Mate  01:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleting article
I have tried to delete user:Velebit article but it is going really bad. Look Articles for deletion/Ethnic cleansing in Croatia. I know that it is not OK to call you or any other user to this discussion but I need somebody with better english and it is very good if it is from Dalmatia because of bullshits in that article--Rjecina (talk) 07:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for bringing the matter to my attention. I believe User:Kubura and AlasdairGreen may be interested in this as well. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXVI (April 2008)
The April 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Tomislav
I have responded to your comment on my talk page. Once again, my apologies - late night editing after a long day. Take care, JPG-GR (talk) 07:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have once again closed the move request as "no consensus". There are no doubt valid arguments on each side, but the fact that each side is arguing so strongly and has been for so long shows that there is no general consensus for either side, unfortunately. JPG-GR (talk) 03:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Decision
A decision was made the RM was closed, just because you don't like the outcome you shouldn't hassle the person who closed it. Moving the article will go against published sources and WP:NC the arguments for a move are based on peoples own unsupported opinions that is clear. You should accept the decision unless you can provide sources to saying he is a "pretender" or that he was never king of Croatia. - dwc lr (talk) 11:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No doubt you will point out "mistake's" to everyone until you get it moved your actions are disgraceful. He made a decision, the support votes are all peoples own pov where are the sources to support your argument? Why would someone move the article to an incorrect title according WP:NC Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta would be the correct title if he was a "pretender" which we know he wasn't. - dwc lr (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok fair enough I'll look at the talk page. Where can I find the sources that dispute he was King of Croatia and say he was a pretender. - dwc lr (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm prepared to be convinced that is why I've been asking for sources that call him a Pretender etc. If the reasons for the support votes were added into the article they would be removed as unverifiable as their are no sources. At present I don't see why the article should be moved when there are no published sources (which is what wikipedia uses) to support that he is a pretender etc. goodbye. - dwc lr (talk) 17:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

IP 151.67...
Buddy,

Had a bit of a break for a week or two. Holiday then work. How are you?

The 151.67 IP you've dealt with today is PIO.

Best, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 15:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * How was the holiday? Great. Went to Haloze and drank too much :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 16:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Il signor IP 151.67... sono io: mi chiamo Luigi e scrivo dall'Italia. Chiedo scusa se scrivo in italiano e non in inglese, ma trovo più semplice così, visto che comunque tu parli anche la mia lingua. Ovviamente potrai rispondermi in inglese. Riguardo alla voce "Italian cultural and historic presence in Dalmatia" chi ha citato il Giustiniani ha scritto un FALSO. Ecco cosa scrive Francesco Bruni nella sua "Storia della lingua italiana", al capitolo che si riferisce al Veneziano coloniale: <<Giovambattista Giustiniani (...) per conto della Repubblica di Venezia visitò nel 1553 le basi dell’Adriatico orientale. Attento anche alla lingua, egli osserva che si parla la "lingua franca" a Pirano, Zara, Sebenico, Lesina; per Traù e Spalato aggiunge che gli uomini parlano la lingua franca, mentre le donne conoscono solo lo slavo (Traù: "hanno ben tutti la lingua franca, ma nelle case loro parlano schiavo [slavo] per rispetto alle donne, perché pocche d’esse intendono la lingua italiana, et se bene qualcuna intende, non vuol intendere se non la lingua materna"; Spalato: "tutti li cittadini parlano lingua franca [...] ma le donne non favellano se non la lor lingua materna"; per Ragusa, poi, il Giustiniani afferma che "parlano tutti lingua dalmatica e franca"; a Veglia l’idioma locale sembra all’orecchio del Giustiniani una sorta di gergo ("calmone"), mentre "tutti... forestamente favellano italiano francamente" (traggo queste testimonianze da Vianello 1955). Dunque si ricavano le opposizioni lingua franca / schiavo (Traù e, implicitamente, Spalato); lingua franca / dalmatico (Ragusa); idioma locale / italiano a Veglia; e dalla testimonianza riguardante Ragusa sembra che la denominazione di "lingua franca" equivalga a "lingua italiana". Si tratta della stessa "lingua franca" con la quale i cristiani comunicavano, nei porti mediterranei, con Arabi e Turchi (si veda il par. 5)? Una risposta negativa è più che probabile, come dimostra la convertibilità di "lingua franca" e "lingua italiana"; anche perché una lingua di comunicazione quotidiana per la navigazione e gli affari mercantili tra popolazioni venete da un lato, dalmatiche (o croatizzate) dall’altro sarà stata diversa. Certo, c’è da dubitare del carattere "italiano" di questa "lingua franca"; probabilmente, per "italiano" si deve intendere un italiano fortemente locale, di colore veneziano, che gli uomini di Zara o Traù parlavano con i forestieri con cui avevano contatti più fitti, e dunque con i veneziani o veneti provenienti dalla sponda opposta dell’Adriatico.>>

Ho notato, caro Direktor, che tu consideri tutta una serie di voci di Wikipedia come "cosa tua", per cui non mi permetto più di modificarle. Certo è che se hai un minimo di metodo storiografico, non puoi permettere che venga mantenuta la falsa citazione nella voce di cui tu sei un buon "guardiano". Vedremo. Luigi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.70.75.185 (talk) 19:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

OOps! non ero il il 151.67, ma il 151.70... comunque il mio messaggio rimane valido. Luigi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.70.75.185 (talk) 19:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Look, I reverted you because you were blocked, get it? not because your edits were incorrect or anything (though they probably are, as usual). You simply lost the right to edit on Wikipedia. And I know you speak English just fine, PIO, so please don't try that trick, its obvious who you are. You should know by now that I never use Italian, Croatian/Serbian, German or French (though I suck at the latter two ;) in discussions on English Wikipedia.
 * btw, is your name really Luigi in the real world, or is that just another alias? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 19:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My name is really Luigi in the real world, ma non so nemmeno chi sia questo PIO. Sono interessato alla storia della Dalmazia e cercavo un testo. Siccome conosco il Giustiniani, mi pareva strano che qualcuno lo citasse in modo FALSO. Comunque sia, se mi dai un indirizzo e-mail ti spedisco il mio indirizzo completo, così puoi fare una prova. Luigi 151.70.75.185 (talk) 19:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * PIO, what a joke. You don't even know where your rotating IP has jumped to, leaving you looking foolish when you had to write "OOps! non ero il il 151.67, ma il 151.70... comunque il mio messaggio rimane valido". Anyway, down to business. FPaS recognises it's you. See . Plus, if you have a look at Requests_for_page_protection you'll see that the three articles you have edited today have been protected from your future 'contributions'. Any other articles you try to edit will follow. Bye, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 20:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Si prega di voler smettere di fingere siete qualcun' altro, PIO, so che siete. I tentativi di ingannare tutte le persone intelligenti qui sono infantile. Gli articoli sono ora bloccata grazie a lei, e mi auguro che vi infine fermata con l'assurdità ora. Arrivederci "Luigi" -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * English please. You know the rules... :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 20:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * lol :D -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Ragazzi, siete veramente al di là di ogni immaginazione: caro Direktor, che ti costa fare la prova per capire se io sono Luigi o questo benedetto PIO che non so chi cavolo sia? Ho scritto poche cose su argomenti che conosco per averli studiati per anni (Istria e Dalmazia): ogni volta ho inserito una bibliografia (il Perselli o il Bruni o altri), e qualche furbo dice che io sono un altro e mi cancella tutto quanto senza nemmeno andare a vedere se quello che ho scritto è supportato o no? Volete per lo meno dare un'occhiata ai libri che ho citato o ve ne fregate assolutamente? Ripeto: se mi fai avere un indirizzo di posta elettronica, ti invio i miei numeri di telefono, oppure puoi contattarmi al seguente indirizzo e-mail: pf1888@tiscali.it. Che fatica!!! Luigi 151.70.75.185 (talk) 20:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * La questione è stato concluso, non si hanno a provare nulla. Io non sprecare altro tempo con l'infantile giochi creato per ingannare me. Mi dispiace che si sono bloccati e ho avuto niente a che fare con essa, ma, smetta prego di infastidirlo e trasmettere i vostri messaggi, ho più cose da fare. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Caro PIO, Italian cultural and historic presence in Dalmatia has been added to lists of articles protected against you. See. Ciao ciao, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Coloman of Hungary
You are working with our italian friends so this is for you: "In article is writen that Coloman has visited in 1108 Trau, Zára and Spalato.". I want to write Trogir, Zadar and Split but I am afraid that I will start edit war.--Rjecina (talk) 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Look section Internal wars with his brother.--Rjecina (talk) 06:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I will nominate article Srbosjek for deletion. SWik78 proposition for merge is farse so that article can't be deleted with reason recreation of deleted article. This and WP:V are good enough reasons for deletion. Your thinking ?--Rjecina (talk) 06:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * See this--Rjecina (talk) 06:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you please propose article for deletion. I am writing RFC on chetniks because SPA account is deleting USHMM picture with Chetniks and Germans, or Chetniks and Ustaše and Germans.--Rjecina (talk) 06:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I have seen that. Must of user Velebit arguments (in my thinking this is Hvarako) will be defeated without problems and it will be hard to defeat WP:V and recreation of deleted article.--Rjecina (talk) 06:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * To defeat claim of WP:V Hvarako has used sites, archive of Republika Srpska, witness on ICTY trial and Bulajić president of genocide foundation which is know for genocide denial (Srebrenica). All other reasons have been bullshits which is not possible to confirm.--Rjecina (talk) 07:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My problem is to have very good memory and I remember old discussions. I will work on that tomorow.--Rjecina (talk) 07:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: People's Liberation Army (Yugoslavia)
If the merge is complete, then redirect the duplicate page to Yugoslav partisans. That is the last step in a content merge. • Gene93k (talk) 14:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back
Hi mate,

Bruno's SSP reoprt is still open at Suspected sock puppets/Brunodam. Obviously everyone's too busy to do anything about it... Other than that, it's been pretty quiet. Just the usual stuff, really :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Please avoid
Please avoid starting new articles on wikipedia based solely on my website Vojska.net, it benefits nobody, Wikipedia gets article which won't be updated anytime soon and I get pushed from number one spot at Google since wikipedia is using nofollow tags (example) and even worse Google declares me copy of wikipedia if text is too similar and remove my website completely from search results! Thank you.

P.S. Current articles which are simple copy of my own with fixed English grammar might even be considered copyright violation. --Ivan Bajlo (talk) 21:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

No problem imenjače, I'm sure no one will mind the two Brigade articles, they're correct anyway. great website, btw :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Belgrade Offensive edits
Just want you to know that I will be reverting any of your edits that are not properly referenced or can be substantiated from third sources.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 23:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Srbosjek deletion
Argument for deletion are:


 * Recreation of deleted article.
 * WP:V (used first time for deletion)

In July 2007 nationalistic SPA account Joka has recreated article Srbosjek. All internet sources writen by him has been declared POV or false (example: his source has been Jasenovac museum but link is given to archive of Republika Srpska and not to Jasenovac museum web page) only "surviving" sources of article are "obscure" books which is not possible to check. But Wikipedia can't trust editor which is writing false, POV sources and which is support nationalistic positions which will be latter defeated by RFC with vote 6:0 (last edit of Joka has been statement that Jasenovac is Holocaust Extermination camp)

Only sources used in attempt to defeat claim of WP:V problems has been Bulajić and Jasenovac committee of the Holly Assembly of Bishop of the Serbian Ortodox Church. Bulajić is interesting persons which is screaming that Serb forces has not commited genocide in Srebrenica (which is confirmed by International Court of Justice) but that Croatian forces has commited genocide against Serbs during WWII which is not confirmed by international organizations or historians)

Name of second source:"Jasenovac committee of the Holly Assembly of Bishop of the Serbian Ortodox Church" is telling all about this POV site but it is time to speak about this site claims:

On this page Jasenovac info site is claiming that 300,000 Yugoslavs are victims of Ustashe, on second page they are claiming 360,000 Serbs victims of Gradina which is only 1 part of Jasenovac extermination camp and on third page they are claiming that from April, 1941, to the middle of August, 1942, over 600,000 Serbs were killed. Because of that this site is not having standards to be wikipedia reliable source.

During last deletion discussion SPA account Hvarako has used like argument google search but this has been defeat in argument because "A Google search which excludes Wikipedia and its mirrors shows only a few uses of the term "Srbosjek" and those appear to be in blogs or other sites which do not satisfy WP:RS and WP:V"

DIREKTOR what you think about reasons for deletion ?

If you start discussion you must ask administrator to look for WP:CANVASS and voting without writing reasons for vote --Rjecina (talk) 08:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * After seeing that you are in discussion with SPA account in article Chetniks I must inform you that last summer there has been agreement about this picture and article. Can you please latter return that picture ?--Rjecina (talk) 14:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What is your situation with reverting ? I can't revert this genius--Rjecina (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * All edits now reverted. By the time I got there, Pax had reverted a few, Aradic a few, I got the last two. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe how many of these guys appear all the time. Anyway, I'm now starting a general cleanup of the Chetniks article. I think its high time someone purged it up of all the nationalist glorification. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 18:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's probably better to have these one-timers than the hard core like our recently departed friends AP and Gennarous... btw, don't be dispirited about the AfD. The most important thing is that you've drawn the article to the attention of a decent number of people, and so it'll get properly cleaned up, with all the nonsense removed :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

More
Unbelievable. A guy is nazi by declaration, it seems. Such jerks still exist? Zenanarh (talk) 13:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Totally Disputed
Are you going to raise the factually inaccurate information and pov issues on talk page then so people can discuss them? - dwc lr (talk) 15:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What are your issues for adding the tag what is inaccurate and pov. You put it their you haven't posted on the talk page highlighting them. Oh and "The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section." - dwc lr (talk) 15:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well what are going to do about it. WP:RM. - dwc lr (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If you don't like the article title you know what to do. - dwc lr (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Is PaxEquilibrium disputing the title? I thought he was asking Imbris if he "approves of the Axis aggression" and "supports the Ustashi" which seems most irrelevant to Tomislav II. - dwc lr (talk)

Also is this the template you want, Template:Disputed title. - dwc lr (talk) 15:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Come in handy for me as well. - dwc lr (talk) 15:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)