User talk:Djegan/Archive1

'''DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.'''

This archive page covers approximately the dates between 25-MAR-04 and 08-MAR-05.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Education in Ireland
Djegan, nice job with the tidying up on this page - also the other primary school pages.

An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?

Zoney 23:56, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maps
Hi. Ace job with the maps of the Irish county boroughs. I'm wondering how small are these things - would they show up reasonably well on a map like the one on counties of Ireland but showing the counties and county boroughs? Morwen - Talk 13:50, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Nice idea about the city maps, but it could be improved with a few labels. Seabhcan 15:47, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

thanks - believe me I know the maps shortcomings but i hope is that the tables become a data point for quick facts like year of foundation, area, mayor and such - most cities have them in their articles. Previously statistics (particularily population) quoted were often wrong (or vaguely implied city and county) and this is my primary motivation for the table and map creation. Djegan 16:29, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I hope I'm not about to be too harsh, but this has been bugging me greatly for some time. I really dislike the tables - from a design point of view. They should not be the first thing one sees on the article (Limerick - hmmm... do I want to see King John's Castle or an ugly table?). Is it possible they could be placed elsewhere, with a thinner border width - and oh, please, please, please replace the maps. They are VERY yuck! (What's that ugly shape staring at me? Oh, it's supposed be the city area) Now, a map of some description is useful - may I suggest that we have an outline map of the area (draw in rivers/major roads/city boundary onto the geographic area) and an inset (in corner) small map of Ireland with a nice red dot? Until then, it would nearly be best to remove the current maps. Again, I hope you don't take offence, the tables are a reasonable addition in principle. zoney &#09608; &#09608; &#09608;  talk 00:31, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Regarding the cities - feel free to redesign the tables, but I would be very much against their removal or (radical) movement - perhaps redesign on a more international theme, eg New York, New York. Again if you want to remove the maps - their not very accurate or really neccessary anyway, but should not be cluttered or overprecise - thats fine, but consider replacing them with crests etc of the city - table must contain some image or images (If you do decide to create new images please name them in a logical system unlike mine!). I assume this discussion only relates to the cities? - counties must retain map as it predates my work. Djegan


 * I am thinking you are even more correct as time passes, the city maps look strangely intimidating (almost like a Stargate symbol, I don't visit the city articles much myself), I have included a map for Kilkenny and used a dot and small square, this could be the way forward. Also best to lower the table four or five lines down, but leave on right, and change the code to better format? Djegan 18:20, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Map is much better - but it needs to be smaller. I've imposed resizing for now, but I suggest proper smaller maps should be made. I've rearranged Kilkenny - for this article, it will only really work having the table first, then the image. I'll have a look at the others - a different order may suit better. zoney &#09608; &#09608; &#09608;  talk 20:13, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Could we do the same thing for all the other cities as at Kilkenny, the one at Cork for example looks awful! zoney &#09619;  &#09618; talk 20:30, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with removing the "stargate city maps" but reducing their size makes me cringe, let the size be bold and similar to the county maps! (in either case use better names like "IrelandCorkCity") Djegan 20:45, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Bórd na Móna
Thanks for adding the definite bits of historical info there! I added the article as I thought it was an interesting one to have on Wikipedia, I.e. for those abroad, yes, Ireland has a Peat Board!!!, but I didn't have the dates and such.

Zoney 10:06, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Even though many Irish companies are quite small, at least internationally, some of their histories are very complicated - just look at Aer Lingus - how do you create a coherent article on that? Many semi-state companies were initiatially private, others had English names and this often complicates the matter of researching and writing on them - most of them were nationalised in a rush to self-sufficency. Example, what is now Bus Eireann initially started out as the private enterprise of (many) individuals and was taken over by the state in the 1930 and 1940s. Djegan 10:30, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Aer Lingus - that's something I'll have to make some attempt on when I'm not actually at work :o) It is a right mess! Zoney 12:39, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Londonderry
Please see my comments here. -- Emsworth 20:32, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Queen's Belfast
The older picture has been removed from the Queen's page - perhaps too large given the lack of real historical detail in the text. Copyright concerns noted, but perhaps not relevant in relation to the older picture. The other pictures seemed to be fillers and didn't add the article - hence their removal.

Provencial flags
There's a reason I had the flags sized to 113px... The images are original - and hence, not very good (better than none of course!). This is somewhat hidden by the resizing to half size. Here's an interesting fact though, the half-eagle on the Connacht flag, I sourced from another Wikipedia image (under GFDL of course)... can you figure out (without looking at the details on the image page) where it came from? zoney &#09619; &#09608; &#09618; talk 22:30, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * No I am not sure where they came from, but soon will! Do you want to keep them at the original sizes? Could be just as good to increase and take full advantage of width, someone might later improve image later! Djegan 22:35, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Those images are fine, we don't need crystal clear, MB images- as long as they transfer the characteristics, thats fine. Djegan 22:51, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I nabbed the half-eagle from the flag of Albania. Heh heh heh. I do actually prefer the smaller size though - it's more along the lines of what's standard for regions in other countries. It looks nicer too IMO. zoney &#09619; &#09608; &#09618; talk 22:59, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * By all means reduce and be merry!

Maps revisited
I'm no longer certain what to do about the maps. I've redone them all bar Kilkenny, with simply a reduced inset size (it looks much better in my opinion). I'm not so certain now that the way to go is the new Cork map. What do you think of the updated maps I added? zoney &#09827; talk 23:12, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * The updated maps you did look fine, the only problem is the map of Ireland is quite inaccurate for the purposes of displaying the cities. For instance Galway is in the middle of a lake (using the county map) whilst Cork, Limerick and Waterford are inland cities - theirfore a separate tailored map of Ireland is needed for each city to show it relative to the locality (I would not advocate updating the county maps they are quite accurate for this purpose). Moreover the cities official boundaries are quite small relative to the county and country boundaries and this is an additional reason as to why the country map is not suited for cities. It is theirfore my opinion that an enlarged county map should show the city within the county, as in the case of Cork which I recently prepaired, it is relatively accurate (until you reverted it, I believe). Djegan 19:43, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with the Cork-style map if you wish to do other ones likewise for the other cities. I just added the ones I did as a temporary solution that we could use permanantly if you decided not to do the other cities in similar fashion to Cork. Cork can of course be changed back, though probably we should wait for the other maps to be uploaded, for consistency (I know Kilkenny is still different, but changing Cork back would mean 3 not 2 standards, at least for a while). Just out of curiousity, how did you get the source material for the Cork map? zoney &#09827; talk 08:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I will replace the maps, but only if their is a concensus, Irish cities are notoriously small and the Ireland map does not do them justice. Their are certain sites on the internet that have maps, but whilst I have used them as a source I have heavly edited my maps so that their can be no copyright problems. I all want is the basic outline and don't need the detail of boundaries, placenames and such.

Like your map of the DART, but one niggle - Harmonstown has no D. Jlang 21:15, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I realised no matter how much i checked it their might be a mistake, I will update it within 1 - 2 days - please leave a note of any other errors! Djegan 21:17, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Djegan, given all your hard work on the maps, please don't take this as destructive criticism, but I really do find the "inset zoom" maps hard to live with: they must surely be difficult to interpret for anyone not already familiar with the geography of Ireland. I write as someone who hasn't the first idea how to go about creating maps for use here, but how about taking a look at the maps in the Welsh Wicipedia -- Pontardawe for example? They seem to me ideal in indicating simply and clearly just where particular towns and cities are located. -- Picapica 23:27, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Economy of Ireland
Thanks for fixing the date the IDA was established - I don't know why, but I thought it was in the sixties - thanks CGorman 18:28, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The date of creation of the IDA is not a great error - in any case it is only in the 1960s that it became a major force in Ireland. Keep up the work! Djegan 18:33, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Economy of Ireland is now on WP:FAC - please support! CGorman 20:07, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Maps
These maps you are creating are a nice idea, but take up far too much real-estate. At the least, even if generally you use the full-size maps, we need smaller less conspicuous ones for short articles with photos. The maps are not the most interesting or beautiful thing on the pages - they need to be smaller! zoney &#09827; talk 11:32, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Council of Ireland
Your little reorganisation contriubtes mightily to the usefulness and effectiveness of the page.

Rlquall 22:50, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Irish Unis
Hi there,

I am happy to accept your point as regards MIC.

LSAD was not always within LIT, though is now I believe, fully just a campus/college/faculty of LIT. It is much older (hence allowing LIT to celebrate "150 years"!), and was a distinct college previously. I've put Cork School of Music down under CIT with similar reasoning.

zoney &#09827; talk 22:25, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't quite follow your last comment. Limerick School of Art and Design is *still* Limerick School of Art and Design, despite being within LIT. There's new LSAD signage and everything. The old college still has a separate identity, it's only recently it merged AFAIK. I think it's pretty much an identical situation as with Cork School of Music. But LIT have art and design courses in their prospectus and show a "Moylish campus" and "Clare St. campus". zoney &#09827; talk 22:47, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Ah! I should have read the article you told me to! :) Still, what exactly did happen with the LSAD then? It was a true merger? (and LSAD doesn't really exist anymore?) Of course - we don't actually have an article on LSAD yet! Perhaps something for me to get onto! zoney &#09827; talk 23:07, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pictures of Maynooth
Hey Djegan, I can't figure how to upload pictures I've taken of Maynooth. I think you handle those pages, can you give me some pointers? They're all at http://www.minds.nuim.ie/~balor/photographs/maynooth/ and were taken by me and a friend. They're licenced under the GNU FDL.

Well...any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.


 * Register as a user! Djegan 14:25, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Pearse Station
Hi. I believe that you said in the Willie Pearse article that Pearse Station is named for him. Is it not named for Padraig then? I sort of assumed it was. I checked online but was unable to find anything that attributed the name to either of them. Do you have a source for this? Thanks. -R. fiend 06:40, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * No - really not certain Djegan 19:45, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
 * Multi-Licensing Guide
 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:


 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. – Ram-Man (comment) (talk)  15:32, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

Life
Good to see there is a bit of life left in the Irish Wikipedians, the place seemed dead after Christmas (the COTW has'nt changed for two months, and v. few new posts on IWNB). Nice job on Adamstown, Dublin. CGorman 21:18, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I know it has struck me to that their is very little happening at the moment and a large fall off occured over the last few months. Their are currently no big projects going on maybe it is time to decide where the next one will be with regard to Ireland? Djegan 21:35, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * There has actually been an increase in new editors of Irish-related articles since Christmas. My watchlist (consisting of probably ~1000 Ireland-related articles) has been quite busy!
 * I personally haven't had time to do much beyond minor editing, I'm wrapping up my current research work at Uni.
 * zoney &#09827; talk 21:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that a lot of work has been done particularily with respect to business and industry but their may be an overall lack in direction and coherence? Djegan 21:44, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Out of interest, I noticed that the pending tasks/Irish notice board is'nt appearing correctly anymore, can someone fix it. I personally have been quite busy fixing up the economy and business page on wikinews. CGorman 22:46, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Traditional counties box
I disagree with putting the new administrative regions in this box. It is clearly for the traditional counties.

After all, by the same logic one would need to add all the NI administrative regions/new counties.

zoney &#09827; talk 01:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * They (the "new counties") are not "adminstrative regions" but rather "counties", cf: Local Government Act, 2001. As for Northern Ireland like much of United Kingdom boundaries they a quazi-defined. The Republic of Ireland is a 26+5 county republic! Djegan 01:40, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * These new "counties" are on a par with other Council areas. These are not the same thing as the traditional counties, e.g. the Limerick County Council area doesn't include Limerick city, but County Limerick does include the city.
 * I consider it important to retain the distinction of the traditional and modern counties. County Dublin, County Tipperary should be part of the traditional county series, but I suggest the issue could be solved by creating a new series, with articles on each of the county council areas (in essence that's what North and South Tipperary articles are, as the main county info is at County Tipperary), including the existing new county areas.
 * I apologise for the blunt reverting (it was only 5 articles though), but it's a fairly major change to the status quo.
 * zoney &#09827; talk 01:57, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Lets keep two clear tiers of local government in Ireland, cities and counties - but should the "new cities" of the NI be placed in a separate table as well? no, just use the existing tables to explain the situation in Ireland simiply.


 * All in all local government in-so-far as cities and counties in ROI is extremely straight forward. Irish cities, unlike their UK or NI counterparts continously change boundaries as need arises, taking part of the adminstrative counties, thus Dublin city is without doubt one of the largest cities in the British Isles (or whatever else you might like to call it), by area. I recently read an article that it is proposed that City of Limerick will expand into County Clare, obviously this will not become part of County Limerick - cities are ultimately distinct areas from counties in the ROI - I accept that the simplfied version is otherwise as you articulated above with regard to Limerick.


 * Similarily Northern cities and counties have a variety of meaning (district, city, county,...), trying to compare the ROI and NI is not possible. Don't make more tables than neccessary, tables can give summaries, articles can give details on particulars. The reason why I have depreciated the Dublin template is because it is largly meaningless and overcomplicates things for those who understand little of the detail. If you don't think i am right go to Counties of England and try and make sense of it.


 * I don not want to overcomplicate it, but rather reduce uneccessary and obsolete tables.


 * Djegan 02:22, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I understand your reasoning, but I wish to keep the 32 counties a distinct series (as indeed they are outside of local government). I've asked for comments at the Irish Wikipedians' notice board, copying the comments here. zoney &#09827; talk 15:10, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Placenames
I wasn't sure previously about whether or not to move the places "sort of" referred to in Irish (or officially). I did so for Muine Bheag (as Iarnród Éireann use it, as do people in speech) but not for others. I see you moved Newbridge to Droichead Nua (is this used outside of officialdom?)

The other places that potentially fall into the same category include Kells (Ceannanus Mór), and Charleville (Rathluirc). I don't know what their official statuses are. Rathluirc (or is it Rath Luirc, or "An Rath" :-) is used by some (traditionalists mainly) in the locality.

You're for sure right about the variations. This country is nuts placenamewise. It doesn't help that on new roadsigns the authorities seem mostly to either make up a Gaelicisation of the English on the spot, or come up with some obscure Irish placename no-one's heard of (despite the fact there's usually a perfectly normal one to use).

zoney &#09827; talk 16:56, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I am trying to reconcile some minor inappropriate varitions and usage regarding names, official town names are contained at . Navan and Kells were officially called by their Irish name but this has lapsed some years ago, but die-hards stick to the Irish terms - as for other places which are not towns i'm not so sure. Also their seems to be a rash of "XXX City" where "City of XXX" is more appropriate form of the name. You might be interested in User:Djegan/Project - the ROI list is definitive, I am currently working on a list of official towns of Northern Ireland, which is more difficult. I have not decided what to do if anything on this list - any thoughts? Djegan 17:11, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * You might want to watch this space which includes a list of official names of counties and provinces and contains an error regarding "Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" - why would anyone in their right mind create the name of a place that uses both the English and Irish languages to form an English name - it is without doubt meant to be "Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown" (the order does not change English names), its straight forward common sense! Djegan 17:39, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I wouldn't insist on going by the official line in all cases. The important thing is to note the official name/status in the relevant articles. General usage should probably be allowed as far as possible. For example, Cityname City is common usage even if properly speaking the format should be City of Cityname. zoney &#09827; talk 21:43, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Confederate Ireland
Yes, an interesting article this. I'd only been vaguely aware of the period from mostly forgotten primary school history (Stair na hÉireann as Gaeilge) and a tour of Kilkenny.

The article probably needs to be referenced to from a few other articles.

Incidentally, a lot of the Irish history stuff is a bit of a mess category-wise IMO. What do you think? It's a formidable job to look at cleaning up a lot of Irish categories. Some areas are fine, as are some main categories, but more subcats, categorisation into subcats of non-parent articles, and consistency is needed. There's a mix of "Irish foo", "Foo of Ireland" and "Foo in Ireland" at the moment, not to mention a general mix of "Foo in bar" and other schemes for subcats.

Someone else may come along and tackle the issue in a way not appreciated by those of us actually working on the Irish-related articles.

Should the issue be raised on WP:IWNB?

zoney &#09827; talk 19:44, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Whatever about categories Irish history articles are a mess (thats why I try to keep away from them!). Regarding categories yes their is a bit of a mess to say the least - I agree, raise it to the noticeboard in the first instance for discussion and consensus. I think "...of Ireland" and "...in Ireland" is fair superior to "Irish...". Also issues regarding "Ireland", "Republic of Ireland" and "Northern Ireland" need to be detailed and used only when appropriate to avoid a fiasco or posturing. Djegan 20:13, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

City mottos
Good thinking there with those additions, both useful and interesting. zoney &#09827; talk 17:02, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I belive I also have the Kilkenny one (in English) but am still waiting for the council to reply to my email - will also be introducing shields soon, will place shields and mottos in info tables. Regarding the cities the articles are becoming long and detracted with lists and info, I am thinks of creating some subarticles such as "History of cityname" and "List of cityname people" where possible, any other ideas or comments.


 * I would focus on just those specific sections that need summarised - if possible, it's fine having unsummarised sections (thinking of Cork for example - it's not really too long) when the city article is not too long.
 * The section on Dublin infrastructure could be split off and summarised though. I think most of the other articles are fine lengthwise - although Galway is a bit ragged and imbalanced - it's not a good article at the moment. I might be a slight bit biased, but I think Limerick is a good article! But Cork for example doesn't need the history or buildings sections summarised until more content is added to the main article.
 * I think the crests are a bit too large when maxed out to the full table width. I've attempted a re-layout of the table and the introductory photo at Cork, moving the crest and motto up to the first table section. Also I've created Template:Ireland city infobox to use with all Irish city articles (any formatting amendments to it will update across all city articles, and the articles are cleaner - having a template+variables instead of a full table). I've only applied this new setup to Cork, pending your comments. zoney &#09827; talk 10:44, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I will place my comments on city article material on the noticeboard. Regarding the city infobox its fine, making the shield small is appropriate as it gives balance and allows the box to appear in one screen. My comments regarding the new style table are positive - it looks better and cleaner than the old style and gives a better opportunity to remain consistant and tidy overall - limericks motto is quite long and might be worth some consideration when implementing (no chance of spliting it off!). Their is not really much that can be added to the infobox - they only need to be a summary - charter dates, mayors names etc would just clutter them. Djegan 12:47, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)