User talk:Djma12/Sandbox0

clarification
The purpose of this sandbox is to create an alternative text for section 2.4 of the main article titled: "The mass executions".

The discussion below relates to section 2.3 "A plan to execute the men of Srebrenica".

Fairview360 19:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Planning of massacre
To state that "The vast amount of planning and high-level coordination invested in killing thousands of men in a few days is apparent from the scale and the methodical nature in which the executions were carried out." contradicts what the ICTY states in its press release following the conviction of Krstic. About 2/3 down in the section "II - Which are the crimes that were committed?" the ICTY states:


 * The Trial Chamber points out that the decision to kill all the Bosnian Muslim men of fighting age was taken after the decision to transfer the women, children and old people.


 * The Trial Chamber is not stating, nor does it wish to suggest, that a plan to commit genocide existed prior to the attack on Srebrenica or even right before the city fell.

Thus, the ICTY is quite clear in that neither the decision to kill the Bosnian Muslim men or the plan to commit genocide existed prior to the attack. I'm not sure how this could be interpreted in any othe way. Neither am I aware of any other opinion offered by the ICTY on this issue.

Fairview360, your statement that this is "obviously" is a perfect example of WP:OR. Regards Osli73 23:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

More sophistry.

The ICTY statement is specifically referring to the intent to commit genocide. It in no way refutes the statement that the killing of 8000 people in the manner the VRS did it requires a high level of planning and coordination.

Here is wording directly from the ICTY describing the massacre:
 * -|"carefully orchestrated mass executions"
 * -|"mass executions followed a well-established pattern." "Immediately afterwards, and sometimes even during the executions, earth moving equipment arrived and the bodies were buried, either in the spot where they were killed or in another nearby

location.
 * - The operation to capture and detain the Bosnian Muslim men was |"well organised and comprehensive"
 * -  "evidence demonstrates a concerted campaign"

Review the reports from the ICTY and the Bosnian Serbs themselves. Thousands of VRS soldiers and support staff, using buses, trucks, tanks, guns, fuel, warehouses, communications, burial selection, and bulldozers, conducted multiple executions and burials killing over 8000 people. Looking at the details as established by ICTY and corroborated by the ICTY's description of event, that obviously took a high degree of planning.

Fairview360 23:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Fairview360, Regards Osli73 00:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) your examples do indeed state that the massacre was "organized", "comprehensive" and "followed a well-established pattern". I agree with that. However, here the ICTY is commenting on the nature of the massacre, not when it was planned/when the decision was taken.
 * 2) The "concerted campaign" you cite above refers to the attempts to conceal the massacre, not to the massacre "The reburial evidence demonstrates a concerted campaign to conceal the bodies of the men in these primary gravesites, which was undoubtedly prompted by increasing international scrutiny of the events following the take-over of Srebrenica." (para 78 )
 * 3) However, if the ICTY states, in the ICTY source that I refer to above, that "the decision to kill all the Bosnian Muslim men of fighting age was taken after the decision to transfer the women, children and old people." then I don't see how we can claim that there was a "vast amount of planning and high-level coordination invested in killing thousands of men" since this implies that the massacre was planned beforehand.
 * 4) I don't know why they had trucks. I guess they were used to transport soldiers or had been intended to be used to transport the population out of town as was done with the women and children. However, the point of WP:OR is that we don't need to solve this problem and we definately shouldn't draw our own conclusions. Instead, we should rely on the sources.
 * 5) I'm more than willing to ask for an external opinion on this issue if you insist.

Given the discussion here about this issue I have rewritten the section in the article dealing with the plan to kill the Bosnian Muslim men of Srebrenica and published it in the sandbox. The previous article contained no sources/references. This one is based entirely on the ICTY and the NIOD report and is fully referenced. Comments are welcome. Regards Osli73 15:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)