User talk:Djmutex/old001

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On Helmuth von Moltke, you commented: hyphens, not dashes, for time ranges (and best not to use two hyphens to indicate dashes in any case)".

Could you please point me to the formatting rule that prescribes that? In German typography, the rule is to use a long dash for the meaning of "until", not a hyphen. Now I'm not sure if this is the case with English, so I am honestly asking.

-- djmutex


 * Howdy, djmutex Actually, I should have said "en-dashes" rather than "hyphen" (that is, dashes with the width of an "N".) The "--" indiction is sometimes used for "em-dashes" (that is, dashes with the width of an "M".)  If you just stick with a single "-" the typesetter or copyeditor will usually make the right choice of "hyphen, minus sign, en-dash, or em-dash" according to their style-guide. Our hyphen and dash articles are less than explicit, I'll look it up in the Chicago style guide and share it with you. (I'll put that info here on your talk page, you accidentally wrote on my user page rather than my talk page. -- Someone else 22:59 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

That someone was obviously me. :-) Sorry about that, I'm still learning. Are you watching my talk page or would you rather have me add it to yours or are the two connected anyway? Ah, and we don't make the distinction between em- and en-dashes in German -- there is only an em-dash in use here anymore. -- djmutex 2003-04-30


 * Got it, Chicago Style Manual 13th Ed, 5.92:

"The en dash is one-half the length of an em dash and is longer than a hyphen. (In typing, a hyphen is used for an en dash, two hyphens for an em dash; in preparing a manuscript for the printer, the editor will indicate where en dashes are to be set.) The principal use of the en dash is to indicate continuing, or inclusive, numbers--dates, time, or reference numbers." So yes, if German uses a long dash in instances such as 1968-72 or May-June 1967, or pp. 38-45, there's a real difference, and in English an en-dash would be standard.


 * OK, then I learned something. We do have a difference then. :-) djmutex 2003-04-30

Hope this helps! I'll see any responses either here or on my talk page, either is ok. -- Someone else 23:08 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

P.S. (My turn for a question for you!.... Sometimes in German texts a name or word is emphasized by spacing the letters apart (where in English the same thing might be indicated by using a bold typeface. Is there a word for this? -- Someone else


 * In German, we call that "sperren". I would not know an English translation, since this method of emphasis is not used in English to my knowledge. It has gone out of use in German as well. Its historic purpose was that with the old Fraktur writings in use in the 19th century and until 1945, you would not be able to type something in boldface; since emphasis is most easily recognized by the eye as a difference in "blackness" over the text, we just took the reverse: instead of making something darker (through boldface), we made it lighter by adding more space between the letters. This is off the top of my head, and again, "sperren" is no longer in much use. -- djmutex 2003-04-30


 * Thanks, now that's 2 things I've learned today! (yes, I only see it in old books) -- Someone else 01:10 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)


 * You made me think about this more. http://dict.leo.org (btw, the best English-German dictionary online) gives "to space out" as a translation for the typographic meaning of "sperren". I have been looking about where this meaning came from, since normally "sperren" has the meaning of "to lock", "to lock out"; http://www.uta.fi/~trjusc/glossar.html#Sperren gave me that with the Bleisatz (the old means of composition with lead letters), extra non-printing stripes of metal would be inserted between the letters. Maybe we should create an article about all this, I find it interesting. :-) HTH. -- djmutex 2003-04-30


 * Yes, it sounds analogous to "leading" in typography, except between letters rather than between lines. I think it might be interesting to have an article on national differences in typesetting... we might have [1] ways of showing emphasis [2] ways of indicating direct quotation (French quillemets, etc.) and find others.... I'm not sure if [3] capitalization of names and titles or [4] alphabetization standards would be pertinant.  That's a very nice glossary site, by the way! -- Someone else 21:12 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)


 * I think an Emphasis (typography) article would be fine for starters. National differences would be great. I also think that the typography article should not only refer to fonts, but many other fine points like the one we had about dashes vs. hyphens and the like, which is something 95% of people do wrong in German when let loose with Microsoft Word and probably in English too. WRT to the glossary site, it's amazing what google can find for you. :-) -- djmutex 2003-05-01

PS: how do I insert this automatic date/time thing?


 * If you start the article I'll be happy to add what I can. You're probably using three tildes to sign automatically. If you use four instead ( ~ ) you'll get your name plus the time-stamp. -- Someone else 04:09 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * Hah, no, until now I typed in everything manually. I suspected there had to be a better way. ;-) Djmutex 07:52 May 1, 2003 (UTC) Whew, works. Thanks!

Took a first stab at Emphasis (typography); added a few links to the additional typography topics that you mentioned. Doing so, I found that an article on quotation marks already exists; this could use a bit of extension for our purposes, it seems. I have added another bit to your talk page -- are you still watching this page, Someone Else? -- Djmutex 22:04 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * I'm still with you (I'll check periodically, if you want me to see something right away my talk page will be quicker). I very much like "Emphasis (typography)". (What font are you using for the Fraktur? It's very legible.  My best effort is [[image:fraktur.png]].  I can't think of much to add to "Emphasis"! -- Someone else 22:29 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks! There is a "Fraktur" font on my venerable Corel Draw 4 CD in both Type 1 and TrueType format (among three gazillion others with exceptional quality, although the CD is unfortunately too old to have the euro symbol with the fonts). Figure 2 was done by creating a chunk of HTML with a &lt;span style="letter-spacing: 0.2em"&gt; section for sperren, switching the font in Mozilla to Fraktur, resizing the Mozilla window, and taking a screenshot. :-) I try to be Microsoft-free... with XFree 4.3.0, font antialiasing has become very good. This is the actual screenshot, without any scaling performed.  As said in the remarks in the emphasis article, I can't get the "s" right this way, I'll probably have to fire up LaTeX eventually. I seem to remember that there was a package for Fraktur typesetting somewhere. Djmutex 22:58 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * Forgot to ask, how did you do yours? Djmutex 23:02 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * Sort of like yours but not MS-free. I have about 12 old Fraktur fonts, so I picked one, typed the words in MS-Word, used character-spacing to get the "sperren" effect (probably used 8 pt separation, which I'm sure is too much but is more obvious to "English-conditioned" eyes), and then did a screen-shot. Then uploaded it and realized I hadn't unhighlighted the text before snapping the pic, but no matter... . -- Someone else 23:14 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the quick response. Just for the record, in your screenshot the "s" letters are wrong too, just the other way round. :-) The difficulty lies in that with German Fraktur typesetting, there are two different letters for "s"... the one I used (which looks more like a regular "s") is used when an "s" occurs at the end of a syllable or word, while yours (that looks like a bit like "f") is for all others. So actually, both would have to be used, but I couldn't find the "f" one in the Corel Draw font. Djmutex 23:21 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * I think I have one of those (see revised version above, I fixed the one at the end of texts). Let me know if it's right! What's the word between "ähnlich" and "beim", BTW? The first letter is throwing me. -- Someone else 23:36 May 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * You missed the "s" at the end of the second line. Also, to be nitpicking, the spacing before the sperren section is too small compared to the one after it. This is a common problem when you mark a word in MS Word and then apply additional spacing; actually, you have to mark exactly the space before the word plus the word itself except the last character, IIRC, and then apply the command from the format menu. (I am obviously not entirely MS-free. :-) ) Otherwise it looks good.


 * WRT your question, the letter is a "w". My HTML text was:

Ein Beispiel für einen deutschen Text in Fraktur, in dem ein Teil des Textes &lt;span style="letter-spacing: 0.2em"&gt;gesperrt&lt;/span&gt; ist. Er fällt &amp;#150; ähnlich wie beim Fettdruck &amp;#150; gegenüber dem Rest des Textes deutlich auf.


 * Mind the &amp;#150; for the en-dash. :-)

(<-- Outdenting) :) You're right, this is a completely non-trivial exercise! I think though that this time I've got it (switched fonts just for kicks, too). -- Someone else 00:11 May 2, 2003 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's it! I'd prefer your version over mine if you switched back to the old font though... this looks more like one of the Old English Gothic fonts, or is it not? Djmutex 00:15 May 2, 2003 (UTC)


 * The "usual" font was called "Breitkopf Fraktur": the other was a Gotische font. I t h i n k  I've switched back to the right one. Is it OK? -- Someone else 00:43 May 2, 2003 (UTC)


 * I see no difference. Did you upload a new image? The term "Fraktur" usually refers to the German-style fonts, while "Gothic" frequently refers to "Old English" fonts. Sorry that I'm being such a bitch here, but if we try to commemorate the Nazis here, we should use a Fraktur. ;-) Compare the image on the emphasis page, which is a Fraktur... the font looks quite different to me.


 * If you grow tired of this game, I can fix this thing up tomorrow in LaTeX too. :-) Djmutex 01:05 May 2, 2003 (UTC)


 * Well, I >>THOUGHT<< I uploaded a new one. I will give it one more shot, though! Please Stand By.  -- Someone else 01:07 May 2, 2003 (UTC)


 * If you go here, you should see a variety of fonts. If you find one that you like, we can delete the others. (Let me know what you think). If you can do better in LaTeX, I won't feel offended! -- Someone else 01:35 May 2, 2003 (UTC)


 * Well, the LaTeX package is external and I'd have to go thru some major hoopla to install it. I have found one among your many images that reminds me most of the 19th century books, so I'll replace mine with the one I picked. I just clicked on "revert", I hope that is correct. Thanks for all the effort. :-)


 * BTW, I am quite used to reading Fraktur. I am working on a dissertation on copyright law in the 19th century and thus have been forced to read much of this... you get used to it. There is an amazing project at, where they scan hundreds of law books from the 19th century for making legal history more accessible. You can find tons of Fraktur there. :-) Djmutex 01:54 May 2, 2003 (UTC)


 * I can't imagine ever getting used to lightening of the text serve for emphasis, but then my only exposure is from genealogical stuff... for the longest time I thought that sperren was just defective typesetting!  -- Someone else 02:03 May 2, 2003 (UTC)