User talk:Djrobb/Pi Kappa Alpha - Gamma Chapter at the College of William & Mary

Notability?
I'm unsure of the notability of individual chapters of fraternities, to be honest. Instead of taking it directly to AFD though, I'll give you guys some time to convince me of how this is notable. Andy Saunders 20:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Response 1
I think a very strong arguement can be made for the notability of an individual chapter at a Fraternity. Particularly a chapter that is 130 years old and has been an integral part of a college community, a city community and an alumni community. It is also important to know that generally the individual chapters are where all of the history/notability is. Indeed, there is a National organization that the chapter belongs to, but in many ways that National organization isn't much more than an insurance and chartering agency. Our chapter, for example, was around for decades before the National organization was established. The chapter created the National organization to spread the values we think are gained from participation in the Greek system. In many ways the historic chapters are more notable than the National fraternity because of their significant presence in the history of their own community.

I would also like to note that while notability is commonly discussed as an inclusion criteria, it is not an official criteria or a reason for deletion. Djrobb 14:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Commentary copied from User talk:Djrobb
This is copied from User talk:Djrobb with some refactoring to remove the welcome messages, etc. -- stillnotelf   has a talk page  21:21, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Initial reasons for AFD listing (User:Stillnotelf)
[This article is] a well written history, it's just outside the scope of Wikipedia. The relevant policies are Wikipedia is not a free host, blog, or webspace provider and to a lesser degree Notability (people). The page should probably be hosted on College of William and Mary webspace or http://www.wmpika.org/. -- stillnotelf   has a talk page  21:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Reply by User:Djrobb
Thanks for being patient with me, I am new to this. I moved the page from wmpika.org to wikipedia. The platform provides a great way for users to grow the history records of this important organization. Its obviously still a work in progress as is everything on wikipedia. There hasn't been a lot of activity yet because I have not announced its existence yet to the thousands of interested alumni and members of the broader community.

I have been trying to figure out the specific reason this article should be disqualified from wikipedia by looking at the criteria. It seems to fit on the site pretty well as it is notable in that it was one of the first fraternities at the College that invented the Greek system.

It is also very similar to the following wikis that have not been nominated for deletion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_Chi_Alpha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_Alpha_Order http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_Kappa_Alpha

The information is verifiable.

The article is not original research.

It is not a definition.

It is not trivia.

It is not a blog.

It is not a personal history, It is not a forum, a travel guide, a memorial, a news report, a directory or manual.

In many ways it is similar to histories of clubs on wikipedia that have been deemed to fall within the wikipedia guidelines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hellfire_Club http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Computer_Club http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slimelight_Club http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_Club

Reply from User:Stillnotelf
The problem is that it is a chapter of the fraternity, not the fraternity as a whole. PiKA as a national organization clearly deserves an article, but has the local chapter done anything historically meaningful enough to merit an individual article? Of the clubs you mention: the first is historically notable, the second is active in current events, the third is a location, and the latter is probably not notable, although does have some historical interest.

The article is essentially a personal history, just not a history of one person, if that makes any sense. Is this particular chapter any more notable than any other chapter of the fraternity? While the notability criterion is debateable (it's not technically official policy), there is still a problem with the fact that Wikipedia is not a web host: this is the sort of information much more appropriate to the site you moved it from than Wikipedia itself.

The main reason I have listed it for AFD is to see what other people think about the notability of the article. AFD is a debate towards consensus, not simply a vote and most certainly not a sure deletion; I've had my own articles nominated in the past. Other users will eventually weigh in on the notability of the article to establish a community consensus. -- stillnotelf   has a talk page  21:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Commentary copied from Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Pi Kappa Alpha - Gamma Chapter at the College of William & Mary
I think a very strong argument can be made for the notability of an individual chapter of a Fraternity. Particularly a chapter that is 130 years old and has been an integral part of a college community, a city community and an alumni community. There are more than 1500 alumni form just this chapter. While the organization may not be an important part of the global community, it is very much important to the communities it has touched.

It is also important to know that generally the individual chapters are where all of the history/notability is. Indeed, there is a National organization that the chapter belongs to, but in many ways that National organization isn't much more than an insurance and chartering agency.

Our chapter, for example, was around for decades before the National organization was established. The chapter created the National organization to spread the values we think are gained from participation in the Greek system. In many ways the historic chapters are more notable than the National fraternity because of their significant presence in the history of their own community.

A further note to make is that there are myriad elements to the article that are noteworthy but do not fit in to any other Wikipedia entry. There are important accounts and observations of the College of William and Mary (where the Greek system was invented), the town of colonial Williamsburg, and the contributions of individuals important to the community they lived in.

I would also like to note that while notability is commonly discussed as an inclusion criteria on Wikipedia, it is not an official criteria or a reason for deletion.

If there are specific official criteria that this article violates, we should probably keep the discussion centered around those.

This article contains a lot more important unique uniformation than articles of many clubs and users groups, which are in many ways similar entries:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Computer_Club
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slimelight_Club
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_Club
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_user_group
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_PET_Users_Group
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD_User_Group
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_Linux_User_Group

Dave Robbins 18:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Overall notability
If this chapter did create the national organization, that fact belongs in Pi Kappa Alpha, not here. Wikipedia does not exist as a source of historical anecdotes, it is an encyclopedia.

On notability in general, it is not an official policy largely because no one has been able to codify it. Community consensus is clearly that notability is an issue; a skim through the WP:AFD logs will confirm that. As for specific policies: List of bad article ideas specifically lists "Your club, society, fraternity, sorority or any other school/college group (unless it's famous)." Famous = notability in this sense. -- stillnotelf   has a talk page  21:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Demonstrating A Particular Chapter of a Fraternity is Notable
So, it sounds like the main issue is to resolve whether or not this particular fraternity chapter is notable within the community it belongs. Since there are no wikipedia guidelines for the notability of a club or organization, perhaps we should use the benchmark of other clubs that are included in wikipedia?

Intrinsic Notability

 * 1) It is an organization which has been active for over 100 years.
 * 2) It is an organization that has contributed $100k+ in charity to its local community.
 * 3) It is an organization that has shaped the beliefs of many influential politicians and judges.
 * 4) It is an organization that has been an important direct experience for 1500 alumni.
 * 5) It is one of the oldest student organizations at Americas oldest southern college.
 * 6) It is an organization that has been a part of hundreds of thousands of Williamsburg resident since the late 1800s.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that this particular chapter is notable in a global context, but its quite clear it is notable within the community where it resides and beyond.

Notability through publishing

 * 1) Each of the following books talk about the notability and importance of the first few chapters (including gamma) in their school, community and in the creation of the national organization and proliferation of 300+ additional chapters. While the books go on to talk about the fraternity as a whole, the first few chapters are especially notable.
 * 2) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00088KNW4/qid=1143299600/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0157432-9602465?v=glance&s=books
 * 3) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006P9A00/qid=1143299600/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-0157432-9602465?v=glance&s=books

Notability Compared to Other Established Wikipedia Entries

 * 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_Linux_User_Group
 * 2) The Jamaica Linux users group has been on Wikipedia for about 4 years. There appears to be about 700 members. There does not seem to be anything notable about the organization beyond their presence in Jamaica. Perhaps in Jamaica, in their local community, it is notable that there is a group of people who support the Linux platform and that is enough to support their inclusion in the Wikipedia. It is certainly not as notable as an organization with the above noted influence on its local community.
 * 3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Blue_%28Oxford_University%29
 * 4) Here is the Oxford University A Cappella group. This is a student group with a very short definition that has been on Wikipedia for about 5 months. There does not appear to be anything notable about it.
 * 5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homerton_College_Boat_Club
 * 6) The Homerton College Boat Club appears to be a mediocre racing club at a college not known for their racing. The post has been active for about 3 months.
 * 7) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salesian_Old_Boys_Cricket_Club
 * 8) The Salesian Old Boys Cricket Club has had an active post for about 5 months and appears to be a non-notable cricket club.

Dave Robbins 15:33, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Now copied to AFD page
The debate regarding this pages deletion status has been moved to the appropriate deletion discussion page that you can access from the top of the article text.69.143.115.178 19:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Moved_Here