User talk:DmitryKo/GMI

WE NEED PEOPLE
The latest non-Bravada edit here took place on April 8th. There is quite a lot of things to do, I am not writing about everything here as I see you don't have much time to devote to this "project". I also have to begin sleeping more than 3 hours a day, so I guess the "GMI Project" might use more participants.

I believe that there are at least a few mature and very knowledgeable people at GMI that might help a lot with the development of GM-related articles. Perhaps having the whole GMI in here would result in embarassing flame wars and POV (not that I haven't noticed similar things in some discussions here), but how about sending invitations to selected GMI members? --Bravada 19:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Count me in for Japanese translation of Japanese GM-related brands Suzuki and Isuzu. I may look around for things to post that aren't listed anywhere, or just check the Japanese Wiki pages for source info.--Michitakem 20:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Collaboration of the Week
I think we might use a Collaboration of the Week feature. I hope you will find this idea sensible.

What is a Collaboration of the Week
The original COTW, which is to be found here, is aimed at focusing the efforts of Wikipedians on an article that needs intensive attention and development. Some Wikiprojects adopted this format - see e.g. Tropical Cyclones, United States or Mathematics

Why a COTW?

 * Because the scope of work to be done is immense and almost infinite. There aren't too many of us are our efforts are spread thinly.
 * Because members of this projects have different interests, areas of knowledge, access to sources and langauge skills. By combining them while working on the same article, we acheive a lot of synergy.
 * Because the sense of collective effort is a great motivator
 * Because this draws attention to a particular article, which might otherwise be overlooked
 * Because it's best to focus on a goal

So, what is the goal?
The goal would be for the selected articles to reach the status of Featured, or at least Good articles. Please click the links to find out what the requirements are. Why should we pursue FA or GA status? Because it's a good benchmark, because it puts our work under outside (rather than our own only) scrutiny, and because we would want the GM related articles to be among the most esteemed and, well, featured articles (the FAs get quite a publicity and serve as benchmarks in the WP community).

How do we do that?
That's simple. Just go to the article which is the current COTW, see what is there, think what you know and you could add, search your sources for information on this vehicle or simply think what king of info in general is missing and should be there, and try to find it.

I would like to emphasize the importance of citing sources. It's simple - everytime you add something, remember to put down a reference to where you found the source of this info, or if this is off the top your head, just try to google a good source. I admit I was culprit of not abiding by this rule, but in time I grew to appreciate it and now I even write fully-referenced articles (see Lancia Flaminia for an example). The following might be useful:
 * Citing sources
 * Footnotes
 * Template:Cite web, Template:Cite book, Template:Cite journal - see the talk pages for usage examples

Nomination process and other technicalities
I suggest we select TWO articles actually for each week. Why? Because some particular articles might not be of too much interest to some members, and they also might not have that much access to data or knowledge on the topic. Therefore, I believe that a selection of two quite different articles would be the best solution.

I suggest we just post our nominations with a short justification in a specific section by, say, Thursday, and until the end of Friday vote on those by simply leaving out signature (after an "*") beneath the nominations we like. On Saturday, two new collaborations would be announced and cleared off the list. The rest will remain, so a past nomination that didn't make it one week might become a COTW next week.

I believe one person should select the two articles out of most-voted-for nominations to make them sufficiently different. A good solution would be for the person selecting the given week to name the person selecting the next week. As the author of this proposition I nominate myself to go first :D

Of course, it would be more than advisable to work on nominated articles even before they get chosen, but not neglecting the COTW of course.

The week's period is just a proposition, let's see how it will work and perhaps extend the period to a fortnight or limit COTW to one article at a time.

The current COTWs are...
These are selected by myself for the time being (until next Friday) so that we don't waste time. Thanks for your contributions in advance & happy collaborating :D I chose the Omega because I started fiddling with it and it is in need of serious collaboration now :D, but I think it has a lot of potential. The Trooper article is a source of perennial concern (starting with the fact that it should actually be called "Isuzu Bighorn" according to the naming convention), and I even tried to work on it in my namespace -> User:Bravada/Isuzu_Bighorn.
 * Opel Omega
 * Isuzu Trooper

What do you think about that?
For now, this is only a proposition, so I am awaiting your feedback. I think that there are only like five or six active members now, so I think that when three members will support this proposition with no objections, this can be moved to the main page and made "official".

"Peer review" requests
In the meantime I have committed/expanded the following articles I would like to ask you to review, correct, expand and give me your impressions and remarks concerning them. Thank you in advance!


 * General Motors Zafira
 * Opel Combo
 * Opel Signum
 * Opel Sintra

I am also working on the missing templates for Daewoo and Isuzu - what do you think about them?


 * Daewoo Template
 * Isuzu Template


 * Um, Bravada, regarding the Isuzu template, couldn't you just merge the D-Max and the i-Series into one, since they are technically the same model? -Daniel Blanchette 13:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for correcting me concerning the Combo! Do you use any sources that enable a quick check like that or is it just proprietary Dan knowledge :D Concerning Isuzu pick-ups - now that I checked it more thoroughly, it seems that the American GMT355 and the ISZ190 have more in common than I thought, so perhaps they might be described in one article. But first and foremost, the I-Series should be merged with Canyon/Colorado, as they have the most in common, and then perhaps the Asian pickups (including D-Max variations). As usual, there will probably be loads of protests. Not to mention that I would appreciate help with the Isuzus in general, as resources are terribly scarce... I have also noticed that User:Sfoskett wants to move the "General Motors Sumfink" pages to proper Opel pages too. He has already moved the Sintra article, and I have a question here - should there be a discussion about moving, or do we just move and await possible retortions? :D --Bravada 19:56, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Bravada, are you suggesting that I have a photographic memory? Anyway, I knew that Chile had the Combo (and checked on Chevrolet de Chile's website just to make sure), but the prices are brutal: $6,021,400 for the version with the 1.4L petrol engine and $7,544,600 for the version with the 1.3L diesel engine!  I'm looking at other Latin American countries to see if it's being offered elsewhere.  I know Ecuador, Brazil (and thus Paraguay), Argentina, and Uruguay does not offer the Combo, but it would be interesting to see if the Super Carry is being replaced by the Combo.  As for the "sumfink" pages, we'll just wait and see how the Sintra is working out.  Then we'll make our move.  -Daniel Blanchette 15:01, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As concerns the Combo, I just want to make sure you meant the Combo A, not the present Combo B - is there any way to check whether the Combo A was sold in Chile on Chevy Chile site? I take it that the Chilean prices are in US dollars - if so, I think they are very low compared to what we have to pay for Combos in Poland, especially knowing that Combo has to go all the way from Europe to Chile. I see you changed your stance on the "GM Sumfink" articles, so I decided to formally conscribe to the Wikiproject:Automobiles to support you :D BTW, concerning the minivan merger thing, I was thinking of merging them horizontally (dustbusters together, 2nd gen U-bodies, CSVs), but then we might have a problem with transgenerational nameplates - Trans Sport, Montana, Silhouette and GL8. This might require disambig pages (which I hate in such cases, see the present state of Chevy Aveo). On the other hand, the situation where Montana and Trans Sport articles overlap awkwardly while Terraza and Relay have a common article is definitely weird. --Bravada 18:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Bravada, what's Daihatsu doing on a GMDAT template? -Daniel Blanchette 15:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Whoops, some old fiddling with the template structure - it's a sandbox after all, ain't it? Anyway, everything's corrected now. And what's your take on the COTW? Bravada, talk - 17:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

OPC
I have started working on the OPC article you can find here, but I began to have doubts whether the detailed descriptions of OPC cars should go there, or to model pages (OPC versions of standard Opels) and separate pages (concepts), the same applies to racing cars engineered by OPC/DTM (I haven't even started this section, an enthusiast is urgently needed) and their successes.

In case all models would go to separate articles, do you think that OPC should remain a standalone article or a section in the Opel article (which requires extensive reediting and expansion, BTW). --Bravada 07:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

GM people
I have noticed that althought the frontpage bigwigs like Rick and Bob are featured on Wikipedia, articles on some other important GM personae, like Lori Queen and Jill Lajdziak, are missing (you might think they are not as important, but I actually never had the urge to look for Bob Lutz info here, however I did a search on Lori in her own time and was very disappointed).

So, I started with Jill Lajdziak. It was my first experiment with a biographical article and with referencing, so I would be grateful for all your comments and corections:
 * is that proper referencing?
 * am I not doing a copyvio?
 * I probably tagged my image wrongly :(
 * how about formatting - is it worth it to use nbsps or not?

In general, I believe that an "Automotive bio" template might come in handy. What do you think about? If you are positive, what categories should the template include? Is there a way to make a template automatically include an article in a category?

Model GM vehicle article
This section was stared by Bravada and all first-level paragraphs are from him.

By using the example of General Motors Zafira I suggest we could develop an exemplar article on a GM vehicle, taking into account GM-typical badge engineering and differences in local markets. What I think should be discussed:

Markets
In my attempts to be exact and dilligent I've started listing individual countries where vehicles are sold, but on second thoughts I think this might become too detailed. On the other hand, this might be misleading if it said that Zafira is sold in Asia, as there are many Asian countries where, apparently, it is not. What do you guys think about it?


 * I think it's a great start, Bravada, but you have to be careful regarding which version was sold where. Keep in mind that only the Mk1 Zafira is sold in ASEAN countries and Brazil (as well as Latin America in general), while Europeans enjoy the Mk2 Zafira.  There are many reasons for this (the reasons in Latin America I've already stated for other models on topics at GMI), so these should be addressed.  Oh, and by the way, since there is already an Opel template on the Zafira, since it seems that the artificial "GM" brand is beinng used, shouldn't there also be Vauxhall and Holden templates on this as well? -Daniel Blanchette 18:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not sure whether I understand you correctly, but the reason behind the detailed listing of markets under each generation was to show where a given generation has been sold until now. Please also note that I have specifically stated in the Zafira B section: "As of March 2006, this model has only been introduced in Europe and Japan, superseding previous Zafira and Subaru Traviq, respectively." I understand that this might still be unclear, so I thought of stating specific dates next to each market but:
 * a) I only have partial data for now, concerning the "mainstream" markets b) This would make the "markets" section REALLY long and detailed, as e.g. the Zafira might have been launched for 2002 in Thailand and 2002 in Malaysia etc.


 * Vauxhall/Holden templates - sure, but they would have to be created first :D I also hope this would be the "Opel Zafira" article in the end, but first we need to convince the guys @ Wikiproject:Automobiles that those "General Motors Sumfink" articles are a bad idea. --Bravada 21:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Another thing - several sites that the "GM Worldwide" section links to were down this week, in particular GM Arabia (whole Middle East), Malaysia/Singapore and Egypt. Besides, there are countries that the GM site does not have a link for (Peru and Bolivia for starters) - can we assume GM vehicles are not sold there? In view of all that, I started wondering whether we could try to locate GMI members that could provide first-hand knowledge on given markets (and perhaps also on GM facilities and production, if applicable), and form a GMI/Wiki Task Force dedicated to this issue?


 * Regarding the Peru and Bolivia thing, I don't think it's not just because Chevys aren't sold there. Look at Paraguay.  They don't have a website.  Why?  Because GM do Brasil handles Paraguay.  Or what about Central America.  There isn't a webpage for Central America, even though GM vehicles are sold there.  I think it's because there might be Chevy vehicles sold there, but only at the dealership level.  For example with Ford, look at Jordan, for instance.  Jordan's dealer is not online yet, and even then it's only just an address.  Or what about the other dealers for other marques in some countries where Internet access is prohibitively expensive? I wouldn't think they would have a Webpage.  Honestly, I would not assume. -Daniel Blanchette 15:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Engines
In the current version, I just made "placeholders" for the engine section, as I didn't really have time to delve into that. I believe it should be determined whether:
 * Engines should be listed in the main article body (like in the section I started) or in the model box
 * We should list all engines, displacements etc. or perhaps maybe just engine families?
 * Information on engine availability in given markets should be there, or do we just list ALL engine available in any market during the model's lifetime?
 * Engine HP/PS ratings should be provided, given that they vary from market to markets?


 * See my new Opel Signum article for a different arrangement of the Engines section, as well as an example of an article on a single-generation, single-market GM vehicle. Comments and contributions encouraged! --Bravada 02:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

First task: GM Daewoo
I hereby join the discussion :D

The most urgent matter for me is getting the GM DAT articles right. I find them to be in a bit of a mess, as there is a separate Gentra article while the Kalos article also contains a Gentra section and the Aveo article is a disambiguation that links to either. Similary with Lacetti/Nubira and Magnus/Tosca.

I think there should be "base" pages for all platforms (like "T200" page"), listing all naming variants and updates (the "x50" models). I understand that the proliferation of GM DAT pages resulted from the fact that Korea is considered the "home market" for them and thus each model with a different name got a separate page. Nevertheless, I believe these should be merged, as otherwise it creates confusion and leads to duplicate entries.

Besides, it's hard to integrate these articles into templates like "Chevrolet Vehicles". The GM DATs are global vehicles now, I don't think that applying the "home market" concept should really have the right of way here. Clarity should go first. -- Bravada 21:34, 28 March 2006


 * Most of new GM Daewoo cars were once under Chevrolet brandname, but they were moved according to WikiProject Automobiles custom of naming the car according to how it's called on the home market. My concerns that these local names do not make sense to maybe 90% of GM Daewoo customers were summarily ignored and my opponents chose to go with complex renaming schemes instead. Note that this is not the only awkwardness with GM naming schemes - notice how the Opel Corsa redirects to a very artificial General Motors Corsa...
 * As for platforms, they are typically described in their own articles, like GM Gamma platform, List of Ford platforms etc. --Dmitry 18:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the Daewoo platforms usually only host one model, so I don't think there should be separate pages for platforms AND models - one would suffice. The GM Corsa, although artificial, is generally how the "multibrand" GM model pages should look like, IMHO. Besides, it's a good precedent for uniform GM DAT pages.


 * If the "home market" precedent were right, then I think that the Daewoo models insofar are close enough - all the derivatives need to be mentioned, of course, but NOT like how there are separate pages for theRenault Alliance and the Renault 9/11 when there should be one page listing the Alliance, Encore, and 9/11 including AMC and Renault template boxes. However, if this is so, then ALL the Opel models (Aglia, Corsa, Astra, Vectra, Sintra, etc.) should be under Opel, not an artifical "General Motors" brand because there is none except for company-wide concept models such as EV1 (even though it was a limited-run production model) and Hy-Wire.  -Daniel Blanchette 22:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am happy that we all agree on that :D Now I believe other members of the WikiProject have to been convinced about it...

T200 (Aveo/Kalos/Gentra etc.)
I am working on an example Kalos/Gentra page here User:Bravada/T200_proposition - do drop your comments and propositions. I tried to integrate everything I found in current Kalos and Gentra entries.

What still needs to be done:
 * extensive cleanup of the layout (do not change the structure please, if you do please indicate why in the discussion page and preferably host the modified page within your own User area)
 * appropriate Wikilinks
 * better arrangement of the engine section - perhaps each engine should get a subsection, explaining what this engine is and in which markets it is sold
 * research for other markets (Latin America, South Africa, the rest of Asia)

...and of course everything I put there needs to be verified :D


 * Bravada, if you look at Chevrolet Ecuador's homepage, the Aveo is sold there. I think that if the South American country mentioned in your proposition is a member of the Andean Community, then it should be mentioned that the Aveo is sold in Andean Community member states, then detail it.  Then again, it's just personal opinion.  -Daniel Blanchette 22:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Daniel, thanks for joining the discussion. I've added Ecuador to the T200 page, but as concerns the Andean Community, I believe this might just make things even more complicated, as it's not the entire AC that the Aveo is sold in, but only three out of five countries...
 * Meanwhile, I have also expanded the General Motors Zafira article and I think this one is even closer to what I think a "shared GM vehicle" article might look like. I will start a separate section to discuss it, as I think this might be valuable. Bravada 11:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Daewoo Badge
Now as concerns other models that are sold under the "Daewoo" badge and/or are/were manufactured by Daewoo in either of its incarnations, they are either rebadges of models of other manufacturers or heavily based on such. In the former case, I believe we just have to make sure all "original" articles (I mean the articles on the model rebadged) contain appropriate information on the Daewoo rebadge. The latter are under individual consideration, I believe.

The template - I believe that Daewoo could use a template. My proposition is to use a Pan-Daewoo template, containing both present-day GM DATs and all previous Daewoos in appropriate sections.

Now, we have a problem, which will be recurrent for many GM models - if we make a common article for a model used by many brands (which I believe we should be striving to) should we place ALL possible templates at the end or what? Perhaps in some cases, like the GM DATs, we might only use the GM DAT (Daewoo) template in hope people looking for more info on, say, Chevrolets, will find their way.


 * Bravada, you think it's a problem for GM DATs? I don't think so.  When you're talking about something like the possibility of merging the Renault Alliance page with the Renault 9/11 page (of which you've helped enormously, Bravada), then you have a problem.  -Daniel Blanchette 14:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am a bit tired after a week of 20+ hrs a day spent by the computer screen, so let me ask you if I understand what you say correctly - you mean that there is far more interest in pages like the Alliance than in GM DAT pages, and that it is going to be a pain trying to convince people to merge the Alliance back into 9/11, while it could me muich easier with GM DATs?


 * Anyway, this week I will hopefully manage to loosen my relationship with my computers, but I see that there is still a LOT to be done (some of this stuff is listed on my userpage) - I'd like to ask you (two, Dmitry and Dan) whether you think it would be appropriate to ask people from GMI to come over and help us with some GM articles and join this "project" in general? --Bravada 19:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry if what I was trying to say was misunderstood, but what I was saying was NOT that there were far more interesting pages like the Alliance over the GM DATs. What I was saying is that if this 9/11-Alliance merge debate is as bad as it is right now, imagine what GM DAT pages would be like.  As for asking GMI friends to come over here: only if they've had enough experience in Wikipedia, editing pages, getting involved in the community, and the like.  -Daniel Blanchette 21:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Suzuki, Isuzu, & Subaru
As far as GM related brands go, we can obviously count Subaru out now that Toyota has bought them. But Suzuki continues to work closely with GM, and Isuzu still lives (...!...) so if you need me to translate something just post a link for me to follow. I'll leave hp / torque conversions up to you International guys. :) --Michitakem 20:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Umm, Ming, we can't leave Subaru out just yet - remember the Forester is still sold in India as a Chevy. As for Suzuki, somebody please parouse through as many Suzuki webpages as you can (and even the Maruti webpage) so that we can get some more Suzuki vehicles down. -Daniel Blanchette 18:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's good to see you back Dan! Good luck with your exams and come back to us soon!
 * Ming, you can use the ":" sign in front of your edit edit a talk page, then your paragraph will be indented (as many times as many ":"s you place bfore the paragraph), and therefore the talk page will get more clear :D
 * As concerns Subaru I agree that somebody should do that, so why wouldn't we? Subaru was part of GM for a long time, so we can't just erase them. And somebody has to do all those historic Subarus!
 * As concerns Suzuki, the easiest way to do it is to go to the Japanese Suzuki article and check out which model pages do not have links to English versions. Actually, even if there is an English version, it is often quite poor, so it won't hurt to go though them all :D As concerns Isuzu, you might find a list on my user page. [[Image:Icons-mini-action_go.gif]] Bravada [[Image:Icons-mini-comment yellow.gif]] Talk to me! 18:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Bravada. My last final was today and now graduation practice starts for me.  The end of high school is near!  As concerning business, I saw that one of your vehicles needing an article was the Isuzu AUV.  Well, I linked that one to the Chevy Tavera article, since I wrote that article and added a few of the names that you mentioned the Tavera/Panther's also sold as.  -Daniel Blanchette 21:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Good to hear that! Thanks for the Isuzu AUV thing, I believe there is still a lot of work to be done there. I think the final article should be named "Isuzu AUV", as all others are commercial brands and there is no de facto home market for this vehicle. [[Image:Icons-mini-action_go.gif]] Bravada [[Image:Icons-mini-comment yellow.gif]] Talk to me! 22:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Chevrolet
I updated the Impala page to include changes for 2007, and the Camaro page to include rumors of possible engines. ChevroletMan

Holden template
Today I created a template for Holden since I believe there is a need for one. A user who has helped me develop this template has already posted a comment on it. I need someone to review that and the similar List of Holden vehicles to be sure I've got all the current and former vehicles down. If not, then edit it. I need to be be sure it is totally accurate and representative of Holden before it gets applied to articles. -Daniel Blanchette 15:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

GM Africa?
Here's the idea. The only African subsidiaries of GM that I know of that have webpages are GM South Africa and GM Egypt. These, as far as I know, are fine. But there are other African countries that have GM subsidiaries and some of the info in these subsidiareis can't be ignored, i.e. GM East Africa in Kenya, which on Autoindex.org currently shows the Isuzu Bighorn/Trooper. This is a problem. I have an idea to correct this imbalance - how about if we get as much info on GM in Africa and bring it here, into the individual model articles and enhancing the main General Motors article. GM used to have a good website on this called GM Africa - it seems to be offline for a while now.

This post is made by DanCBJMS using a public computer.


 * The general idea is very worthy of pursuing - have you tried the Wayback Machine on GM Africa? I guess we could also use the help of Wikipedians living in/coming from African countries. How about contacting them and letting them know their help is needed? Do we want to create a comprehensive history of GM in Africa (has their really been a single, pan-African umbrella body like GM Africa, or would the article be something like General Motors in Africa?) Do we include the Ranger and such? Bravada, talk - 23:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's see. The Wayback Machine only gives me "x"s on the photos (if you want to do a search, it's for a website http://www.gmafrica.co.za ). If I've the opportunity, I want to try and contact GM South Africa. If we know someone that wants to contact either GM Egypt or the Mansour Group for North Africa that's fine with me. If GM East Africa has an email address I'll try and contact them as well. -Daniel Blanchette 05:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, since our engine's gone
I think that this semi-project is still a great idea. However, since Bravada has departed from this WikiUniverse, I think I'll take it upon myself to reiterate some things that NEED to be done that've been stated already. Anyone with a passion for GM (which, yes, includes GMi-ers) is welcome to come in and join the fun. I'll be juggling this with working on my media crusade. The big things that need to be done:

A. GMDAT. Obviously, this was supposed to be our "first task", but Bravada pretty much took on all the load. We don't want that. We need to expose Daewoo's past and present and future models for all the world to see. That means that even if there is one sentence, extrapolate on it.

B. The COTW idea is a great one, and I think it would work out well in this case, because there are some many GM vehicles out there that need their story told.

C. Finally, worldwide exposure, especially among emerging market like Latin America, Africa, and the Asia-Pacific markets. There's so much more that can be said about GM's worldwide exposure than what's currently presented. So we REALLY need help on this side.

Other than that, I think that this project can continue, but ONLY if we get things done fast. Since Bravada was our main engine in this project, and he's now gone, we should try and continue this ourselves.

-Daniel Blanchette 17:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)