User talk:Doc Halloween

Welcome!
Hi, Doc Halloween, Welcome  to Wikipedia! Sorry that no one's welcomed you yet - let me be the first - TheronJ.

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Image copyright problem with Image:MythicCover.jpeg
Thanks for uploading Image:MythicCover.jpeg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 07:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Book4.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Book4.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 03:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

your article
It appeared to be a copyvio. It also appeared to lack a claim to notibilty.Geni 19:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you can provide evidence that the text can be used under the GFDL it can be undeleted (although it may get re delted due to lack of noteabilty and stuff. The image was lisenced under a no comercial use lisence which means it cannot be used on wikipedia.Geni 22:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * GFDL is GNU Free Documentation License roughly translated into english it says that anyone can use your work for anything (includeing selling it for a profit) as long as they keep it under the GFDL.Geni 22:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction
Hi Doc,

I've accepted your advocacy request. I've looked over your submission, and I'll be happy to explain the policies involved and figure out whether we can get your mythic role playing page back on Wikipedia. A couple things to start out. Thanks, and I look forward to working with you, TheronJ 16:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) I generally prefer to conduct advocacies on the wikipedia pages instead of by e-mail, but if you want to discuss something with me in private, let me know and we'll set up e-mail.
 * 2) Otherwise, please feel free to reply to me here on your talk page - I'll keep an eye on it, and it will keep all our discussion in one place.
 * 3) To start, let me make sure I understand the situation:
 * 4) You created a page, Mythic Role Playing, based on a role playing game (or book?) of the same name by Tom Pidgeon.
 * 5) You also uploaded a couple of images, Book4.jpg, and MythicCover.jpeg, that were both deleted.
 * 6) Geni speedy deleted the Mythic Role Playing entry as a copyright violation.
 * 7) Is that all correct? If so, I have a couple follow-up questions:
 * 8) Did you write the text for the page yourself, or did you copy some (or all) of it from somewhere else. If so, where did you copy it?
 * 9) Is the text or the image someplace on the internet where I can look at it?

I appreciate your help
Thank you for the welcome TheronJ and for taking the time to look into and help me with my problem.

As soon as I am done typing this I will be looking over the information you have given me so far.

I call Mythic a book, which it is, but it is a role-playing game. It is more than that. It is, hands down, the only system that allows one person to play role-playing games with out anyone (solitaire). Not a choose-your-way or follow the paragraph style. A full fledge pen-n-paper role-playing game with your imagination. That is something I had been looking for 20+ years.

The Book4.jpg image is an error upload. The MythicCover.jpeg image was the one I was using and I put this information in the summary for the image "©2003 Tom Pigeon, & Word Mill Publishing. All Mythic graphics & logos are the property of Tom Pigeon & Word Mill Publishing." I told Geni this. The image is taken from this web addy: http://www.mythic.wordpr.com/ and when Tom Pigeon looked the Wiki article over he had no problems with me using the image.

Geni wrote that I had image problems and something called copyvio.

I wrote most of the article myself. I did have a section called "Summary" that pretty much (just about all) came from this web addy: http://www.mythic.wordpr.com/more.html Again, Tom Pigeon looked at this Wiki article and liked everything I had done.

I am not using Wiki as an advertisement. I am just a fan and I have been going around to message boards telling people. I have a fan web site: http://members.tripod.com/~DocHalloween/MythicUniverse01.html and I have started a yahoo group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Mythic_Role_Playing/

I thank you for taking the time to help me out. If this article is going to get complicated or starts to get legal I would rather you say so now. That way we do not waste each others time. I would like to get the article back up, if it is not going to be a hassle, so other people who longed to play role-playing games will know that this fantastic system is out there.

First thoughts on how to get the article back up
No problem, Doc. I'll skip to the chase so that you can decide whether you want to go to the effort of trying to save your article -- even if we do everything right, I still can't promise that your article will survive, mostly because I think it's going to be a close call on the issue of notability. Here are a bunch of more specific thoughts:
 * 1) On-Wiki vs. Off-Wiki: One possibility (maybe more of a last resort) is that if you decide that the page won't survive a notability debate or that you just don't want to hassle with Wikipedia's rules, you can always take the material and post it somewhere else, either on your own blogspot page or maybe on a Wiki somewhere else on the net. If you decide to do that, we can probably get someone to let you have access to your old text and try to find you a good spot somewhere else on the net, but I recognize that leaving Wikipedia is probably a distant second best for you and for Wikipedia.
 * 2) Getting Your Text Back: Once we have a plan, we can probably ask nicely and get you access to your text, which you can then work on, either to make a new wiki page or an off-wiki page.
 * 3) Copyright: One of your problems was Wikipedia's copyright policy, which is what Geni meant by "copyvio". This is actually the easier of the two obstacles you are facing, and I am pretty confident that we could overcome it with some work.  Under that policy, pages can be speedy deleted if they contain material that is copyrighted by someone else.  (Unfortunately, under the policy, even the copyright owner's permission isn't enough, unless that permission is very broad -- I'll explain more later).  In the case of your cover image, MythicCover.jpeg, there are some Wikipedia policies that would allow you to upload it, but only once we get the text page up.  In the case of the text page, it's best not to copy any text from the Mythic Roleplaying game or advertisements at all -- paraphrasing is ok, but copying is more trouble than it's worth.  (Short quotations may be ok as fair use, but let's save that for later).
 * 4) Notability: Your biggest problem is going to be notability -- establishing that the game is widely published and "important" enough to deserve a space in an encyclopedia.  Unfortunately, what is "notable" enough to belong in the encyclopedia is a subject of intense debate, so I can't tell you exactly what is notable or what isn't.  However, you may want to track down some facts regarding notability first.  As a general matter, the following are helpful (and are more or less arranged in order from most helpful to least helpful).
 * 5) Published Secondary Materials: Have there been reviews of the product, or stories about the product, in published media, especially newspapers, magazines, or books? (Major websites might also qualify, but if you can come up with two or three newspaper stories or reviews about the product, you're probably in good shape).
 * 6) Materials Establishing Popularity: Are there other reliable sources establishing that this game is popular? Is it a bestseller, or has it won any awards?  Has it been involved in any controversies that would show up?
 * 7) Web Materials: Generally, on-line, self-published, or other similar information won't establish notability. Still, if something is all over the web, that may offer us some clues of how to find other sources establishing notability.  (On the other hand, when something isn't discussed much on Google, that's often used as evidence in support of deletion).

Overall, my recommendation would be that we start by seeing if we can come up with evidence of notability -- if so, we should be able to put together a strong case to include a page. If you're in touch with the game's author, can you e-mail him and ask him if he can send you references to any reviews (good or bad), awards, sales information, etc?

Thanks, and I hope this was helpful, TheronJ 14:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

A little bit more info
Tom Pigeon emailed me last night. I asked him for an official answer here is part of that email: "Tom Pigeon, author of Mythic Role Playing, and publisher Word Mill Publishing, give permission to Wikipedia, and submitter 'dochalloween,' to use an image of Mythic Role Playing on the Wiki site." You can always email him at mythic@wordpr.com. The email there is the email Tom has on the inside cover of the book. I have a private email to him but I do not know if he wants me handing that out.


 * Thanks, Doc. IMHO, the first step is for us to work on whether we can find some evidence that the game is notable.  If so, I think the cover image will be pretty easy.  Thanks!  TheronJ 02:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Working on the notery
Tom wrote me, after you posted the above, and officially gave me that information. I thought if you had questions that only he could answer his email would be important.

I am working on the notability. We have 31 members in the Mythic Role Playing Yahoo Group and I am asking for their help. I will get back to you in a week. In that time I should have some answers for you or we can call it quits. Mytic had been mentioned on 2 to 3 web pages that Google came up with. I think we are going to fail that important task. However, I want to give it a week and see what Tom and the rest of the community can come up with.

Seems to have been doomed from the start
Well I gave it a shot. I could only come up with a one online review, a bunch of buyer reviews, and a few mentions here and there. It had been #1 on RPGEdge for the past 6 months and the new product is #8 on their list of top 10. I asked for our groups help and even Tom Pigeon. Nothing came on the yahoo group and nothing in the email. I guess I need to promote Mythic and have Tom Pigeon submit it for awards and get some literary reviews done for his books.

Is there any way I can gain access to that page so I may get the information I placed on it? I am going to place it on my web site and do a few reviews around the web with it. I really can not remember what I wrote and should have saved it on my computer. Maybe in the future, armed with more hard facts, I will come back and make an article.

I posted a message on Geni's talk explaining my confusion and tried to smooth things over. He/she must be angry with me because I did not get a response. Geni just deletes stuff without helping new members out (something that needs to be looked into). He/she would not have a lot of angry questions if she/he would explain his/her actions and how to fix the problems.

I would like to thank you for taking your time and making the effort to help me. That means allot to me. Your kindness will be rewarded someday somehow. People like you make Wiki worth while and easier to understand.

Peace be with you, Doc Halloween Doc Halloween 15:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for being so understanding, Doc. I will ask an admin to give you access to the old text and follow up here.  If you have any other questions or if there is anything else I can do, please feel free to put a note on my talk page.  TheronJ 17:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've asked one of the admins who has volunteered to do deletion restoration to consider restoring your article text to your talk page, (see here). Let's give JzG a day or two to look at things and then follow up.
 * Also, give me a little time to think about your comments regarding Geni. Geni's doing a lot of good work for the encyclopedia, but you've got a good point that if his/her responses had been a little more detailed, you might have understood what was going on and had fewer hard feelings.  Let me think about a good way to present your point.  Thanks again, TheronJ 17:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Restored
See User:Doc Halloween/Mythic: Role Playing. Please note: this was tagged as a copyright violation. It is very important that you either remedy this by a rewrite, assert permission and release under GFDL if you are the original author, or request deletion after copying it off Wikipedia. Our copyright rules are defined by the GFDL and the redistributable nature of Wikipedia content, this is non-negotiable. Thanks. Guy 18:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Guy! Doc, when you've had a chance to copy the text of your article and are ready for it to be deleted, let me know.  Deleting a subpage that was formerly a part of the article space can be a pain, or you can just edit the page and delete the content.  Thanks, TheronJ 19:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a note - I've seen the prod notice on your subpage, and wondered if you knew you can use db-userreq to get the same job done more quickly. Percy Snoodle 14:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Technically, Wikipedia's user page guidelines state that "Pages which have formerly been in a different namespace and moved to a subpage of the user namespace may not be deleted in this way. These must be listed either at Articles for deletion," at least in the context of db-owner. I agree that speedy deletion makes sense, but the guideline seems to forbid it.  TheronJ 15:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Closing your advocacy request

 * Doc, I've passed along your (and my) thoughts to Geni here, so unless you have anything else you would like to address, I'm going to list your request as "closed." Thanks a lot for your constructive attitude, and I hope you give editing another try.  Please feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you ever need any advice or help.
 * With regard to your comments about Geni, I've passed them along. It's a tricky issue -- he/she does so much work that I think it's hard to pass along as much information as a new user justifiably needs, so I've suggested that he include a couple links to help and advocacy pages when he receives complaints from new users.
 * Lastly, if you'd like to, please feel free to take the follow-up survey regarding your advocacy request.
 * Thanks again, TheronJ 14:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)